My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

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RaviSri
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Joined: 10 Apr 2011, 11:31

My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RaviSri »

I have uploaded ‘srI gaNanAtham bhajarE’, the Eesha Manohari raga kriti of Dikshiitar. This is the Veena Dhnammal version of this kriti and was taught to us by our guru Smt.T.Muktha. I intend to upload kritis of the Dhanammal bhANi which we learnt from Muktamma, those that are different from the prevailing versions and not available in Internet recordings.

This has been sung by Sridhar and myself (Ravi)

https://archive.org/details/SriGananath ... iDikshitar

arasi
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by arasi »

RAviSri,
Happy that you have started recording your pATAntaram and are sharing them with all of us. High time!
Let this thread grow, so that we can all be enriched by hearing what you both have imbibed from such an awesome source. A gambhIra gaNESa made his appearance...:)Waiting for more....

Ranganayaki
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by Ranganayaki »

Thank you.

Ramasubramanian M.K
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K »

Thank you RaviSri: Yes--I have never heard this version-differs vastly from the version sung by DKP-DKJ. I was under the impression that theirs was authentic because of the Ambi Dikshithar connection.

I understand that Esamanohari has Harikambodhi. janyam. Another song that DKP/DKJ used to. sing Mnasa Sree Ramachandra which "hews" close to Harikambodhi. Any thoughts on the authenticity of this kriti.Ofcourse the Dhanammal School equally "hews" close to Dikshithar thro the Sattur Panchanadha Iyer connection.

Which version is authentic ?

I generally steer away from such questions of origin or Patantharam because it distracts from the enjoyment and does not add value to the enjoyment. However I am curious!!

As Arasi says what YOU have is a Treasure and needs to be preserved and shared.
Not a single day passes in my life without regretting how I let slip away a golden opportunity. When Viswa Sir was in Wesleyan. I have visited him with my father(whenever he visited US) and he offered to take me under his tutelage,but the distance(100 miles RTP) and family responsibilities prevented me from grabbing the opportunity. After all he was only 10 years old than me and I thought I would have time after my family obligations are discharged. His death was premature.

MORAL: One has to match one's passion with opportunism and "soak" in the experience!!!

SrinathK
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK »

Interesting to hear this with two nishadams (N2 and N3). @RaviSri, interestingly, this was the very first kriti I learned to play on the violin.

RaviSri
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RaviSri »

Srinath, yes, both nishadams occur. And this version matches perfectly that notated in SSP, including N3. This was the first kriti Muktamma taught us.

MKR, What I have heard is that DKP learnt only one kriti, bAlagOpAlA from Ambi Dikshitar. Sensing her potential after this, Ambi Dikshitar decided to teach her. But he had to go away to Ettayapuram for a while. He did not return. Thereafter, DKP learnt from T.L.Venkatarama Iyer. I don't know how many MD kritis TLV learnt from AD. Mostly, I have heard, he learnt from SSP. We do not know how he interpreted the songs. In my listening experience, I can say that among vocalists, the Dhanammal family had authentic versions of Dikshitar and Shyama Sastri as well as Thyagaraja.

'manasA srI rAmachandruni', B-M also used to sing and I have a recording of it. There is another Thyagaraja song they sang, 'srI jAnaki manOharA'. The N3 does not occur in both these songs of Thyagaraja.

Ramasubramanian M.K
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K »

Thanks Ravi. I agree with you on the DKP-Ambi Dikshitar connection. I have always wondered HOW much DKP could have learnt from Ambi Dikshitar(AD)--when she was only 16 years old when AD passed away.
As an amateur historian looking for anomalies and inconsistencies in revisionist history, I find the Dhanammal School has the BEST claim to authenticity --free from any particular bias towards the Trinity or other composers. I have read accounts about Dhanammal that she learnt directly or indirectly from Sattanur Panchanada Iyer--one of MD's latter-day disciples--she used to refer to him as Sathanur Ayya.
Also the Walajapet school thro Naina Pillai for Thyagaraja Krithis -I do not know the link to the Syama Sastry school. Likewise the Padams and Javalis. .
What is even more worthy of praise is the fact that they have been willing to teach without holding back if YOU are sincerely dedicated to their Bani and frowned upon "Charlatanism"--this was mistaken to be possessiveness..

My cousin Kalyani Sharma used to tell me stories of the School's precision pedagogy. I still lament despite our family's proximity to the family,I did not fully utilize the opportunity to learn from that school.

SrinathK
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK »

Both of you sound like the Malladi brothers! If I come to Tiruvannamalai anytime to meditate in Ramanashramam, can I find you there?

SrinathK
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK »

Oh and share the link to your Youtube channel.

RaviSri
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RaviSri »

If I come to Tiruvannamalai anytime to meditate in Ramanashramam, can I find you there?

Yes, but please inform a week ahead of your visit. We might have gone somewhere.

My youtube channel only has the truncated Nata Pancharatnam. Nothing else i have uploaded. Youtube does not seem to like me, so it refuses to upload.

RaviSri
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RaviSri »

MKR, Dhanammal's grandmother Kamakshi was a disciple of Subbaraya Sastri. Dhanam's mother Sundara was a disciple of Annasamy Sastri. Hence the authenticity of Shyama Sastri kritis in their family. Dhanammal learnt directly from Sathanur Panchanada Iyer, who was not a direct disciple of Dikshitar, but of Shuddha Maddhalam Tambiyappam, the senior most disciple of Dikshitar.

Dhanam acquired her Thyagaraja repertoire from Tiruvotriyur Thyagayyar. B-M learnt Thyagaraja songs from Dhanammal too apart from Naina Pillai.

RaviSri
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RaviSri »

I have uploaded a song that is very popular. Everyone sings this song, everyone knows this song. But a different version, the Veena Dhanammal version this.

https://archive.org/details/SwaminathaP ... aDikshitar

SrinathK
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK »

This sounds really gambhira nATa-ish at times skipping that R3 entirely (and maybe a clue to the origin of that name?).

I have Brinda Mukta singing sAmaja vara gamanA in shuddha hindOlam (D2, long story, this was supposedly the original hindolam, then mAlkauns replaced it). I can imagine mOkshamu with D2. :)

RSR
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR »

RaviSri wrote: 06 Feb 2019, 18:08 .........
My youtube channel only has the truncated Nata Pancharatnam. Nothing else i have uploaded. Youtube does not seem to like me, so it refuses to upload.
============
youtube expects a video or image along with the audio. It is not the best medium for sharing audio. Uploading to ' archives ' is a nice idea. as you have done. May I request you to add some introduction to each upload? it will be nicer.
Another option is 'soundcloud'. Some rasikas may have difficulty in downloading from soundcloud, however.

RSR
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR »

This is tribute to DKP by ' Gamakam.'
"அம்பி தீட்சிதரிடம் நேரில் பாடம் கேட்ட பேறினைப் பெற்ற பட்டம்மாள், அவரின் மறைவுக்குப்
பின் தீட்சிதரின் மற்றொரு சீடரான டி.எல்.வெங்கடராம ஐயரிடம் பல அரிய பாடல்களைக் கற்றார். இயற்கையாகவே நல்ல கனமுள்ள சாரீரமும், ஸ்ருதி சுத்தமும், சௌக்க காலத்தில் பாடும் போதும் நல்ல காலப்ரமாண நிர்ணயமும் பெற்றிருந்ததால், முத்துசாமி தீட்சிதரின் பாடல்களை பட்டம்மாள் பாடிய போது அவை தனித்த அழகுடன், கம்பீரத்துடனும், ஓர் அலங்கரிக்கப்பட்ட பட்டத்து யானையின் பவனி போல ஒலித்தன. இன்னம் சொல்லப் போனால், பல தீட்சிதர் கிருதிகள் பட்டம்மாள் பாடித்தான் மக்களிடையே பரவின.அவர் பாடிய ‘மீனலோசனி ப்ரோவ’, ‘மாமவ பட்டாபிராமா’ போன்ற பாடல்கள் இசையுள்ள வரை நிற்கும்! காலப்போக்கில், D.K.பட்டம்மாள் என்ற பெயரில் D.K.-ஐ Dikshitar Krithis என்றே குறித்தனர். "
-------
"T. Muktha: The last bastion of an inimitable tradition
http://sruti.com/index.php?route=archiv ... &artId=123
( article in sruti magazine by RAVI & SRIDHAR

Only Pattammal and I are left now. Why should I live anymore?” This was the constant refrain of the veteran vocalist and doyenne of the Veena Dhanammal family, after her close friend M.S. Subbulakshmi passed away.

=======================================================
Justice T.L. Venkatarama Iyer is widely recognized as a scholar musician. He too might have referred to SSP. And MD krithis have been rendered by other stalwarts like MMI, too. Except for historical accuracy purposes, we can retain non B-M versions too. when they have been accepted by great artistes.
Let us not denigrate any artiste especially from the past. What are we to do with numerous krithis by many other composers like Purandaradasa , set to music by his disciples and admirers perhaps? of Badrachalam Ramadasar? of Sadasiva Brammendram?
The famous versions will linger in our hearts whether we know or not of their 'authenticity'.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Let us not denigrate any artiste especially from the past.
I think you have misinterpreted the discussion. I cannot find any artists being denigrated. In fact this discussion and these versions are very interesting. Many of us don't know the version sung by B-M. This is an opportunity to listen from their disciple.

There is nothing wrong in mentioning about the tutelage of any particular artist (if that is what your concern is). The repertoire of an artist is dependent upon the teacher whom he/ she or learnt from and this is an aid to understand their repertoire too.

I feel we are in an era where we can not only access many rare materials but also be able to record it for posterity. This becomes important to understand the evolution that our ragas and music have witnessed. If you have followed me, you could have sensed my apprehension about these changes and more importantly 'retunitis' (apt term coined by SrinathK). These kind of exercises make us to get an idea about these older versions.

RSR
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR »

RAVI and SRIDHAR ....biography of Muthuswamy Dikshithar.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 0WgHh2Rm64
-----------
May be already available in Dikshithar thread,
For those, who missed it.
-----------------------------------------
So long as the versions are not too very absurdly different, we can just mention that this is B-M version. and where it differs from the other versions. We can even assert that this is the authentic version.
In our forum, we are not always very careful in differentiating the lyrical composition from the musical composition. We tend to believe that both are same. ( not correct) but then there is insufficient information about that. No harm. Who tuned Annamacharya krithis" Do we admire the krithis for the theme and lyrical quality or the music?

bhakthim dehi
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by bhakthim dehi »

very careful in differentiating the lyrical composition from the musical composition.
What is the difference ?
Who tuned Annamacharya krithis" Do we admire the krithis for the theme and lyrical quality or the music?
Yes, we do. How is this related here?

Also, in this case , we are left with only two options - either don't sing those compositions or sing by re tuning it. Second is much logical and that is being followed.

RSR
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR »

Smt.DKP was humble enough to admit that she had sung a few krithis without knowing that they were spurious Dikshithar krithis.
Here is an excerpt from an interview given by her.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1616/16160670.htm
--------------------------------------------
" RK: I would like you to clarify a few doubts about Dikshitar kritis. Subbarama Dikshitar has put together 250 keertanas in Sangeetha Sampradaya Pradarshini and we all accept that as authentic. But now, many songs that are not in that collection are also passed off as Dikshitar kritis. How authentic are these?
Yes. There are many spurious songs attributed to Muthuswami Dikshitar. Some such as the popular kriti "Akilandeswari", in Dwajawanthi, are not Dikshitar kritis. But they are all passed off as his. T.L.Venkatarama Iyer made a specific point when he said that "Akilandeswari" was not Dikshitar's kriti.

RK: There are also some other keertanas in this category. For instance, "Sri Ranganatham" in Poornachandrika. The chittaswaram in that song is the same as the one rendered in "Paluka Vemi". How did that come about?

I was responsible for that. I tried it and then discussed it with Venkatarama Iyer, who encouraged me to go ahead.

RK: What about "Gananayakam"?

Again, there is a problem with that. Some say it is in Rudrapriya and others say it is in Poornasajjam. I am not clear on that.

RK: You sing "Gananayakam" in Poornasajjam. Isn't it?

Yes. I learnt it from Venkatarama Iyer.

RK: Some other keertanas, such as "Gajanana Yutham" in Vegavahini, do not have the grandeur of Dikshitar kritis...

Yes. Also, "Gajamba Nayako" in Junjooti, which even I used to sing. Some composers have spuriously introduced such songs as Dikshitar kritis so that they become popular especially when rendered by leading artists.

RSR
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR »

@18-> a) I thought, everyone in this forum knows the difference between the lyrics of a krithi and the music of that krithi. There was a very illuminating thread earlier in this forum.
b) Many of us have heard a lot of krithis, more for the theme and lyrics, assuming that the krithi composers tuned the songs themselves. Only subsequently, we learn that very little is known about the 'tunesmiths' to use the word in the discussion earlier.
------------------
wonderful thread... ( inputs from 'munirao' and 'harimau')
What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?
-----------------------------------------------
Even if the composer like Subramanya Barathy had indicated the ragam in which he wants it to be sung, it is not always followed... Perhaps, all for the Good. A poet may not be best person to create the tune for the poem. Let us await and benefit by further uploadings by the OP.

shankarank
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 07 Feb 2019, 20:33 RK: There are also some other keertanas in this category. For instance, "Sri Ranganatham" in Poornachandrika. The chittaswaram in that song is the same as the one rendered in "Paluka Vemi". How did that come about?

I was responsible for that. I tried it and then discussed it with Venkatarama Iyer, who encouraged me to go ahead.
Well Prof SRJ(s) son who is a member here, had mentioned to me that SrI dIkshitar's parampara kept Janaranjani and pURNAcandrikA as one and same and Prof SRJ(s) rendition of Sankhacakra gadApANim reflects that! If so the ciTTAsvaram had to be slightly different! This thing will unravel itself in many directions ;)

Ranganayaki
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote: 06 Feb 2019, 19:04 I can imagine mOkshamu with D2. :)
I’m not sure I understand the relevance of this last sentence.. would you explain why you added that?

bhakthim dehi
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Janaranjani and pURNAcandrikA as one and same
You mean to say SRGMPMR is seen in the sanka cakra of Deekshithar ?
I thought, everyone in this forum knows the difference between the lyrics of a krithi and the music of that krithi. There was a very illuminating thread earlier in this forum.


You can explain or at least post the link for people who doesn't know, like me.

SrinathK
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK »

@Ranganayaki Wait and see, all these things will come out in the ragas section. I confess I am very surprised by the findings going back in time.

Yes, mOkshamu had D2, not the D1 that it has now. That's why Brinda-Mukta never sang it. Abheri had D1, which was why GNB never sang nagumOmu.
Last edited by SrinathK on 08 Feb 2019, 13:34, edited 1 time in total.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Yes, mOkshamu had D2, not the D1 that it has now.
Textual references always mention Saramathi as a ragam with suddha dhaivatam. I believe, to understand scales like these with no great antiquity,we need to rely only on these texts.

RSR
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR »

'bakthim dehi'-> @23->
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13399
Tunesmiths?
---------------------------------------------------
Kindly look for the following.
@2 by Sri.'VK'
@4 by Sri.Mohan
@6 by 'munirao'
@7 by Sri.VK' ....VERY CLEAR
@9 by rshankar
-------------------------------
Please! This particular thread is menat for info about ravsri's uploads of BM taught krithis.
May I suggest that rasikas 'for'/'against' re-tuning and 'authenticity', start a new thread as mentioned in the 'tunesmityhs?' thread?

RSR
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR »

@21-> Sir, Kindly note ...It is a quotation. You should say..as quoted by RSR in post.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by bhakthim dehi »

@RSR Thank you !!

shankarank
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by shankarank »

#27 -> That only works as good as the quote button on the right corner - how it works - and I highlight and quote using the quote button. I did not manually setup the quote. There is an Up arrow next to your handle in the quoted section - with which a reader can navigate back and look at the original post for full context!

RSR
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR »

@29-> I think, the quote mechanism here, is not always, suitable.
I would suggest that one can click the 'quote' button, and then remove the body altogether. ( ,,,,,,). It is not necessary to mention any name. but just post one's comment. Readers can connect with the context and comment easily.

By the way, you surely must have chanted SriSuktham in your boyhood, I surmise. I have heard in my school days, long back. and was hugely impressed, by the chant.
'jatha vedas'. Is it a reference to Agni?
May I have your opinion in the 'hiranmayeem lakshmim' thread, currently in focus?
Last edited by RSR on 10 Feb 2019, 12:48, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR »

@28->bhakthim dehi-> Thank you.

SrinathK
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK »

RaviSri wrote: 06 Feb 2019, 18:33 I have uploaded a song that is very popular. Everyone sings this song, everyone knows this song. But a different version, the Veena Dhanammal version this.

https://archive.org/details/SwaminathaP ... aDikshitar
I got hold of the SSP yesterday. This version of yours is almost the same as the SSP. I would have said almost ditto, but the biggest change from the book seems to be a mass replacement of R3 with G3, making it sound like gambhira nATa at many places. If you sang all those G3 with R3, it would perfectly follow the SSP.

RaviSri
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RaviSri »

I suppose you will remember that Dhanammal learnt her Dikshitar from Sathanur Panchanada Iyer, who was a disciple of Shuddha Maddhalam Tambiyappan, a senior disciple of Dikshitar. Therefore, I personally believe that the Dhanammal version of Dikshitar more authentically reflects Dikshitar than the SSP. Ragas like gambhIra nATTai are recent caricatures, therefore, I personally don't consider such ragas when I discuss the Trinity. The SSP is after all a book and can interpret Carnatic music only in a limited way, though it remains the most scientific and technical of all available notations. Even SD says at the end of many raga lakshanas that he has shown certain mUrchanAs and prayOgAs, the rest 'learn from a guru' (lakShyangaLirundu arindu kOlga).

SrinathK
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK »

True. When I started the raga threads, I wanted to look at the ragas which I did not know anything about, and I wanted to unearth the compositions lesser heard from the shisya paramparas of CM. I am now discovering far more than what I imagined. At least now we can archive them safely and maybe even popularize them on stage in the long run.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Therefore, I personally believe that the Dhanammal version of Dikshitar more authentically reflects Dikshitar than the SSP.
Dhanammal descendants might have preserved the versions learnt by Dhanammal. This does not vitiate the authenticity of the versions given by Subbarama Deekshithar in his treatise. He does say subtle features are to be learnt from the lakshanam and that is true too. But those words cannot be applied to transposition of svaras or lack of usage of a particular svara.
If you sang all those G3 with R3, it would perfectly follow the SSP.
Yes, I too agree. But singing Nata with only G3 can only be called as Gambeeranata !! Nata must have R3 profusely and occasional presence or total lack of D3. This is the lakshanam followed throughout.

Thiruppampuram Natarajasundaram Pillai, a student of Sathanur Panchanatha Iyer has notated this kriti in his book. The version given here matches exactly with the version given in SSP. Gamaka symbols alone differ and that can attributed to the instrument style that they have learnt. There is R3 throughout !! How this can be accounted ?

This again shows the authenticity of Subbarama deekshithar and his versions !!

Certainly commenting the efficiency or authenticity of an astute Vidvan to highlight another vidvan is to be avoided.

SrinathK
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK »

Anyways, let these disagreements not become a source of friction at a time when we welcome that various traditionally preserved renditions are coming out. I guarantee that the more one digs into this (as I am going to do on the rAgAs thread), one is going to find a lot more of this.

This much I already found out when I was on a marathon session of listening to Thyagaraja kritis, which I downloaded from Sangeethapriya's tribute pages. I had 2 or 3 versions for every other one, sometimes one version was 2 kaLai and another was 1 kaLai, one was in Mishra chApu (and it will be the commonly known one), another will be in tisra tripuTa.

Even in Dikshitar, I have more than one version cropping up, and the rAgA isn't even different in some of them. In the case of swAminAtha paripAlaya, it is originally in chalanATa and so there are actually quite a lot of DNS phrases.

So now that we've come too far downstream for well over a century, I say preservation is now far more important. Well, I personally think Veena Dhanammal and parampara did quite a lot of gamaka development on the kritis and then preserved them as they had learnt from that point on - gamaka wise they were already at another level compared to the vidwans of that period (one only needs to hear the old gramaphone recordings to get an idea) or even when their version matches the SSP very closely, still the gamaka level is on another scale.

Like thyAgarAja pAlayAsu mAm or even Subburama Dikshitar's own composition kAntimateem in kalyANi for e.g. - it's almost exactly as per the text, but the level of gamaka is way beyond the books - it is in fact the highest amount of weight I've ever observed in any rendition by anybody including today's artistes. Well, it is only thanks to them that today we are rendering ragas with this level of intricate gamaka. But Veena Dhanammal did add an M2 in her paras jAvaLi too.

Brinda and Mukta however were very particular that not one sangati gets changed from the versions they had learnt and this I can observe down to the gamakas on multiple recordings. I have a huge collection of B-M and I intend to develop that thread further.

More on this when I look into the Academy journals, but that is for my next round.

Meanwhile, I am waiting for vAsudEvayani.

SrinathK
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK »

SrinathK wrote: 12 Feb 2019, 17:10
bhakthim dehi wrote: 12 Feb 2019, 15:23 The prefix "chala" is added only to satisfy the rules of Katapayadhi. Nata is really a raga of great antiquity and it was called only as Nata throughout the history.
naTa seems to be over a thousand years old, having been mentioned in the earliest texts on rAgAs. Even older than that, it is mentioned in the tamizh paNNs, where one paNN called nATTapadai (spelling correct?) is equivalent to gambhira nATa. So that would push it back further to maybe even 2000 years ago. Who knows what history it must have had.

I wonder on a humorous note, if anyone gets the feeling that if rasikas.org keeps going like this, we might become a classical music text all to ourselves - imagine someone quoting links and discussions from here. :lol: :lol: :lol:

SrinathK
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK »

Also another thing, the Dhanammal school on at least one known occasion followed some ideas that were even older than the period where they learnt those compositions from. Taking that example of AndhAli : http://guruguha.org/wp/?p=166

RaviSri
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RaviSri »

I don't intend to argue anymore on lakshana. It seems to be futile. I'll just record whatever I have learnt. Below is a link to the Dhanammal version of Thyagaarajam Bhajeham, Neelambari. This is sung in 2 kalai Roopakam.


https://archive.org/details/Thyagarajam ... Neelambari

bhakthim dehi
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Below is a link to the Dhanammal version
I have a suggestion. Let us allocate a separate thread for your recordings. Either we shall discuss separately in a different thread or you shall start a new thread with your recordings alone. It will be useful for us to search and listen to your uploads.

RSR
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR »

I second 'bhakthim dehi' suggestion. The forum is now discussing the late S.Rajam as a musician and painter. ..Here is a quote from the suleka article
-----
"One of the musicians he admired most in his youth was Smt. Veena Dhanammal (1867-1938) renowned for adherence to traditional values and profundity of music expression. He heard her in the latter years of her life. He spoke of her from his heart “It was Dhanammal’s music that haunted me in my early years. Dhanammal was Saraswati incarnate – she sang and played the veena alternately. I was fortunate to attend her Friday soirees some 40 times. I would sit very close to her ; and when she sang Akshayalinga vibho, she shed tears while doing niraval on the line ‘padarivana’. Shouldn’t we have the same intensity of feeling while performing? How can you be a real singer if you are not a rasika yourself?”
--------
'ravisri' learned from that TRADITION and feel that the version learned by them is the authentic version. ( granted , that 'gamakas' cannot be truly learned from notations, in book , even SSP, but only from a teacher). If the songs are posted in a separate thread by them in musicians section, and there are frequent and regular postings, it will not get drowned in the flood of topics in 'general discussion' .
---
Even better idea for the admin, is to create a separate section for 'DhnammaaL school' . All the recordings of B-M also can be placed there. for very serious students of CM .
Is it possible for creating, branches ( sub-menu) ?

RasikasModerator2
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RasikasModerator2 »

: bhaktim dehi said:
I have a suggestion. Let us allocate a separate thread for your recordings.
This thread is for that only ! :lol:

I suggest that shifting or breaking threads will only tend to take the continuity and momentum out of a developing thread. Not to mention the visibility aspect - a thread like this has the promise of being very interesting, so let it run on. If all of you feel that debating historical lakshanas won't settle anything, then you may discuss lakshanas in ragas or in the Dhanammal legacy / Brinda Mukta threads (they already exist and the Dhanammal thread was made sticky years ago) or at a later time and use this thread to stay on discussing @RaviSri 's recordings. You may later copy the posts to other threads.

I would advise against spoiling the natural flow of a discussion, but at the same time just let it not get too far off topic. Threads that are well developed have the maximum views by far.

RSR
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR »

Found that there is no detailed biographical article on Subbarama Dikshithar . And a few had requested in that thread.
Here is a very detailed and fine blog on the topic.
https://sreenivasaraos.com/2015/06/14/music-of-india-a-brief-outline-part-twenty/
Sri Subbarama Dikshitar and Sangita –Sampradaya-Pradarshini

Any posts on this may kindly be made in the thread on Subbarama Dikshithar. ( unable to locate it quickly)
Mod may move it to the said thread. please.

RaviSri
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RaviSri »

Here is the much awaited (by SrinathK) 'vAsudEvayani' kalyANi. The original version.

https://archive.org/details/VasudevayaniKalyani

MaheshS
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by MaheshS »

RaviSri wrote: 17 Feb 2019, 11:26 Here is the much awaited (by SrinathK) 'vAsudEvayani' kalyANi. The original version.

https://archive.org/details/VasudevayaniKalyani
This is astonishing. Who changed the tune to the one that people sing now?

SrinathK
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK »

Wow. This is fantastic. First thing in the morning and this comes up. This version is a revelation! Especially the way the anupallavi and charanam come back to the pallavi blows the current one right out of the water.

Keep them coming @RaviSri.
You also mentioned Sri mahA ganapatiravatu mAm long back.

@MaheshS It was GNB who changed the tune and that was how that 1940 recording was born and broke the box office. We had no idea for almost 80 years how it used to be before he popularized his version. GNB used to talk of the 20th century as the age of interpretation and it probably might not be off the mark to think of him interpreting the scene of calling vAsudEva from the gate loudly and so starting the song from mel Sa. The swarAkshara phrases in today's version at the charanam were also definitely his idea.
Last edited by SrinathK on 18 Feb 2019, 18:07, edited 1 time in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote: 08 Feb 2019, 12:34 @Ranganayaki Wait and see, all these things will come out in the ragas section. I confess I am very surprised by the findings going back in time.

Yes, mOkshamu had D2, not the D1 that it has now. That's why Brinda-Mukta never sang it. Abheri had D1, which was why GNB never sang nagumOmu.
Nothing’s happened! I didn’t find anything in the ragas section.

What are your sources for this claim? Is this well-known? I’ve never heard of Saramati having a D2. And where is it recorded that this was the reason B-M never sang it?

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK »

Not Saramati, mOkshamu. I think it was on this forum itself.

We are developing the ragas thread. Wait till I get to S.

In the meantime do check out the other examples.

parivadini
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by parivadini »

SrinathK wrote: 18 Feb 2019, 05:57 He wanted it to sound like someone loudly called Vasudeva and that's how it changed. The swarAkshara phrases in today's version at the charanam were also his idea.
Dear SrinathK - There is no record that says GNB changed it for the reason stated by you. This interpretation came because of what I wrote in my book. I have clearly mentioned that this was only my guess and this should not be attributed to GNB. We don't know why he changed it.

It is widely believed that Musiri changed the tune of Nagumomu. In a recent conversation with SRJ sir, he mentioned that Musiri had merely recorded another version that was in vogue. He even regretted doing it and didn't realise that it was a tampered version and certainly didn't expect his record to become a huge hit.

Now I'm regretting publishing my "guess work" as part of the biography.

rajeshnat
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Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by rajeshnat »

parivadini wrote: 18 Feb 2019, 12:41
SrinathK wrote: 18 Feb 2019, 05:57 He wanted it to sound like someone loudly called Vasudeva and that's how it changed. The swarAkshara phrases in today's version at the charanam were also his idea.
Dear SrinathK - There is no record that says GNB changed it for the reason stated by you. This interpretation came because of what I wrote in my book. I have clearly mentioned that this was only my guess and this should not be attributed to GNB. We don't know why he changed it.
There is this krithi meru samana .One sung by semmangudi srinivasa iyer and the other by MD Ramanathan . Both are poles apart in treatment even though glowing mayamalavagowlai is intense and intact . Are we excessively reading that GNB retuned , made it sound better , yada yada .I am assuming it is just the flair of two great musicians GNB (whom I adore) and veena dhanammal (whom I am yet to adore), as long as both is kalyani should we all worry about change of tempo etc as long as many like it . Your thoughts on this ravisri, not that I am taking a direct counter on you. More than vageyyakkara it is at times the vidwan/vidushi who brings a greater charm to the music.

Lalitharam
Tx for the clarification but in any case your clarification will never reach the critical mass of readers. But you have age and memory in your side you can conduct a lecdem on the faux pas that you did in your intense search of musician and history.

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