Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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shankarank
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

Now a break with some funny interludes:

Sanskrit teacher ( his name is Sankara Sastrigal - my namesake) - Raghuvamsa in class : As dilIpa and sudakshiNa travel on the chariot , the ride is bumpy with ups and downs just like how life is ups and downs - explaining kAldiasAs upamAnam

Couple of naughty boys from behind - one telling the other ( Pardon them they were late teens Ok!): There are bumps and pits in humans too! ( I am translating for those who know tamizh here it is in tamizh: manuShALLayum mEDu paLLam uNDu).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Over a decade and half later in a post lecdem conversation - the lecdem of a Mother/Daughter Duo on Padams and jAvaLis:

They sang the paraj padam : smara sundaranguni.

An expert rasika - keen observer of notes: "Paraj rendition had that touch of pratimadyama!"

Others in conversation : "Yes indeed!"

Expert rasika continues: "I have heard the view it is a sin to touch such extraneous notes in a rAgam. pAvamamE saar!"

An Oldie experienced rasika: "What you say may be true , but such liberties are there in such compositions."

Expert rasika continues: "But did you notice the Mother did not sing that touch, but left it to the daughter to do it?"

The Oldie experienced rasika quipped: "Well the mother might have consciously left the sinful actions to the daughter ( pOra vazhikku puNNiyam tEDikoNDAr!) "

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So that is SRngAra rasa savoured ( of secular variety? ;) ) with no qualms , and no effort required to understand the "lyrics" - just on the fly.

So the question of any language being a camouflage is moot now :lol:

Improvisational rasikas weren't they! :D

kvchellappa
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Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

Jawaliye thevalAm.

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote: 07 Mar 2020, 09:46 Jawaliye thevalAm.
Did you mean Jaw vali :D?

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

Now this also:

https://narthaki.com/info/articles/art87.html
Rukmini Devi's statement, “The dance should not be sexy. Sexiness has no place in our arts,” best sums up the concept of brahminisation of Bharatanatyam. Coming from an Indian looking back on erotic Indian literary works like Kama Sutra and Geeta Govinda, this is indicative of the austerity measures and convenient censorship of the dance form by Brahmins.

Why it had to be called Brahminization of BharatanATyam? Rather call it theosophization of the same!

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

....."Balasaraswati remarked, “If you remove sringara from dance, what will people like us do?” Rukmini Devi answered, “I have no problem with sex or love, nor with portraying sringara, but the dance should not be sexy. Sexiness has no place in our arts....."

That sums up coming from a woman and belonging to Devadasi parampara. SRngAra is the core of our creation and evolution. There is nothing to be ashamed of it if one knows where to draw the boundary from the point of public display.

For the origins of the word 'brahminisation', one would better listen to Dr. Raj Vedam. The artcle itself contains a rather an unsavoury quote about what it means to be called a brahmin - it is not about birth, that is only a caste - it is much profound, but that profound aspect has been relegated to nowhere. Kanchi Mahaperiava would call the so called brahmins by birth as 'brAhmaNa bandhu'. That's altogether a different topic.

The article is fairly presented, though it is only an excerpt of a dissertation. In the main paper he might have gone into the real source of dance and music - the gandharva origins.

By emphasizing on the much-polluted word 'brahminisation', which was colonial hangover, adopted by so called social reformers in order to show their disgust about their own - other castes - inability to get a strong foothold in education and thus gain more job opportunities - in which brahmins were quick because of their being wedded to learning.

People knowledgeable still wonder why India could not be Islamised or Christianised, like it happened in other countries. It is the contribution of brahmins - though mostly as a brahmaNa bandhu, yet that was a major contributing factor, which will be recognized by history after another a few millennia. In the meanwhile, we will continue to be quarrelling among ourselves - a hallmark of brahmins. But the virulent form of much abused 'Hindutva', might prove to be the very undoing of what we stand for.

kvchellappa
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

The topic is hikacked to 'brahmin' though javali has nothing to do with brahmin, nor the rasa of javali. It is difficult to agree that proselytisation failed because of Brahmins. It is because of non-Brahmins and women, not Brahmins most of whom have become 'secular' and 'sophisticated'. Brahmins have given up on Brahminism and taken to 'lotus on water' attitude to religious issues. Nothing of Vedic religion survives really. What we have is puranic religion based on temples, worship and bhakti which cut across caste or varna (it is difficult to see the distinction in practice). There were several non-Brahmins who were prominent in the bhakti movement. Take away Murti and Bhakti, Hinduism will collapse.
The term Brahmabandhu (rather than Brahmanabandhu) perhaps occurs first in Chandogya Upanishad:
शवेतकेतुर्हारुणेय आस तम्ह पितोवाच श्वेतकेतो वस ब्रह्मचर्यं न वै सोम्यास्मत्कुलीनोsननूच्य ब्रह्मबन्धुरिव भवतीति I Perhaps all Brahmanas did not go for adhyayanam even in those days.

shankarank
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

Whatever be "who a brahmin is" , these new ideas did not come about for 1000(s) of years, but came about now ( meaning 20th century!). Should we not just ask what is new that brought these ideas? We don't need to meander into various other things.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
Behold the power of Javali !
It leads the rasikas to Chandogya Upanished
& Vajrasucika Upanishad !

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote: 10 Mar 2020, 09:06 It is difficult to agree that proselytisation failed because of Brahmins. It is because of non-Brahmins and women, not Brahmins <snip>
Interesting that you group women separately. A little bit like Lord Krishna himself :D

shankarank
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

Well , well that could be from oppression theories! Club everybody who are oppressed!

However we have seen, Communist parties have been headed by people ID'd as Brahmins. Nobody ever talks about brahminization of Communism! Nothing sticks to the left. They are like teflon or nirlEp!

vgovindan
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

The true colour of SRngAra - that would resonate with THAT. Who cares about the beauty of words, melody, rAga or tALa or even bhAva that is enacted for entertaining audience and with no conviction? This Love has nothing to do with one's face or the bodily features - it is when the heart communicates, that a response is resonated and then the love story is enacted. It's heart speak.

All else is just duplicity for the sake of worldly riches.

https://youtu.be/nzkiwvca8cA

shankarank
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: 29 Jan 2020, 09:46 Telugu Javali 'celi nEnETlu sahintunE' rendered by Smt. D.K. Pattammal:
https://gaana.com/song/cheli-nenetlu-ja ... -pattammal
So a tamizh jAvAli here in the same tune - does it circumvent the issues raised ?

https://youtu.be/NpAOfYmWQr4?t=8175

No camouflage of Telugu!

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: 29 Jan 2020, 09:46 Telugu Javali 'celi nEnETlu sahintunE' rendered by Smt. D.K. Pattammal:
https://gaana.com/song/cheli-nenetlu-ja ... -pattammal
So a tamizh jAvAli here in the same tune - does it circumvent the issues raised ?

https://youtu.be/NpAOfYmWQr4?t=8175

No camouflage of Telugu!

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

Shankarank,
With my limited knowledge and exposure to CM, when I initiated the topic, I was under the impression that Javalis are normally in Telugu only. Later on I realised that there are more such material in Tamil too, but, till date I have not come across a more 'plain invitation' than what is given in the Javali I quoted. And, you call that SRngAra? Well, I will leave it to the judgement of people.

I have clarified that it is not Javali, as a musical or dance format, that is under scrutiny, but the 'exploitation' of the format to hide the obvious. I left the forum in disgust. Then, when I was casually perusing the topics, I came across the post about the gentleman who 'propounded' that tyAgarAja also wrote Javalis. This made me sit up. Did I miss something? I thought I had gone through patiently all the material of Sri tyAgarAja (I wouldn't like to offend the gentlemen who detest tyAgarAja being called 'tyAgarAja svAmi' - no, he is an ordinary mortal with all weaknesses, but with extra-ordinary musical talent, isn't he?). I had not found anything to even remotely suggest that Sri tyAgarAja was having any such exploitative inclination, when he used the Javali format for some of his kRtis.

Coming to SRngAra, as such, we had heated debate elsewhere and could come to no reasonable understanding. Well, the topic is such that it defies a simple definition. That's why I started a separate thread to bring all possible material - and opinions too - in one place. Let's see how it goes. In the meanwhile, I came across the following link. I don't know whether this has already been referred.

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/re ... 373522931e

Enough has been said on the subject.

kkbava
Posts: 27
Joined: 28 May 2020, 22:18

Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kkbava »

Sir,

Apologies for sending a reply without reading the full thread. Merely read the last reply (#314)

My mother did her M.Phil and PhD from Andhra University on the topic of "telugu sAhityamlO jAvaLIlu - oka pariSIlana" తెలుగు సాహిత్యంలో జావళీలు - ఒక పరిశీలన - "jAvaLis in Telugu Literature". She came across jAvaLis in Tamil, and Kannada also (I'm sure all of you are aware of the same)


She didnt like the common opinion that jAvaLis were merely lewd poetry. That was the core theme of her research.

Right now, we're publishing lyrics of all jAvaLis she collected - at https://javali.blog
Will go through this entire thread one of these days, and add any new jAvaLis I can locate to our blog post.

Someday, when I can spend some more time, I'll try to publish her entire thesis also online (in Telugu language only).

Regards,
kk

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

what srungara? just a silly euphemism for plain aninmal lust with a capital L. ...Just translate those telugu stuff into plain tamizh for purely tamizh audience. and see for yourself if you can listen to such in the company of your grownup daugters!what is the use of discussing this with fellows who do not know the difference between romance -an affair of the heart and lust? Mods are requested to lock this obnoxious thread. javali deals with tune and rhyhm . it can have a nice theme- non-sexual
jayadeve sang all his songs on the courtesan padmavathi. and the kshethrgaya went from temple to temple seeking the favours of call girls abounding in hose days In Andhra country. what is so great about it?

shankarank
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

Today's audience will listen to "thunbam nErgaiyil" composed by an atheist ( which itself is meaningless of course for Indian context!) filling a stadium! They cannot even listen to real music!

How do you expect them to know anything? They are just products of silly education born of silly liberalism. They won't have the guts to call the shutdown and ban of countless movies, not recent , but since the days of "paguttarivu" which normalize abuse of Women!

shreyas
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shreyas »

I am new to this thread, and I've just glanced through the content. First of all, forgive me for saying this, but I find the entire datum of this argument flawed and, I daresay, preposterous.

'Therefore, this needs to be camouflaged in Telugu so that people do not understand the meaning while it is being rendered."

When Kuppier, Kshetrayya or Sarangapani wrote these padams, the last thing they had in mind was the 'kutcheri going populace,' and least of all the Tamil kutcheri going populace. Why would they care about whether Tamil people could understand their music? By calling Telugu a language of camouflage, you're assuming that the only language people can understand is Tamil, or alternatively that there are so few people who can understand Telugu that it is either defunct or lurid by default. If there is such an issue with Telugu padams and varnams, why doesn't a primarily Telugu audience make such presumptions and accusations regarding Subbarama Iyer's padams?

Also, @RSR sir, most of the famous Bhakthas of the puranas describe the object of their adulation and devotion in a very suggestive manner - Hanuman, Andal and such. Why is it that when they do it, it is 'shringara bhakthi' and when Kshetrayya does it, it is 'Lust with a capital L'?

I'm sure this topic has already been milked dry by all the forumites here, but I just wanted to put my opinion out there.

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ananthakrishna »

RSR wrote: 13 Sep 2020, 16:14 jayadeve sang all his songs on the courtesan padmavathi. and the kshethrgaya went from temple to temple seeking the favours of call girls abounding in hose days In Andhra country. what is so great about it?
Firstly I must ask you what are your sources? Where do you get these facts from?
@RSR, I do respect your age and vast experience of the world, but I request you not to twist historical facts to suit your own interpretations. Kshetrayya was a bhakta of Krishna, as was Jayadeva. Also, your calling the Devadasis “call girls” is an insult, and shows your own ignorance.

I have seen several threads where you have adopted this holier-than-thou attitude. Why? Why do you criticise Sringaram and view it in such a negative narrow-minded way?

Fact is, not a single one of us would be here today if not for feelings of love between two individuals. Humans are not born due to mitosis. And love is a feeling like any other. Teluguites experience it, Tamilians experience it, every human being on earth does. An expression of this love, and the other feelings that make us what we are, is the Padam or Javali. The meanings and feelings they evoke, are relevant whether they are in Telugu, Tamizh or even Japanese. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the expression of that divine love through lyrics, be they in any language.

You are a great admirer of Sangita Kalanidhi, Bharat Ratna, and a fierce champion of Bhakti, Vidushi M S Subbulakshmi. Didn’t she also have feelings of sringaram and love towards GNB and Sadashivam? Also she and her mother were devadasis. Are you going to call MSS’ mother a call girl? Your comments show your ignorance of these matters. Music is a vehicle for the expression of emotions, and no human emotion can be termed lewd or disgraceful. These legendary musicians and composers are far greater than we are, and closeting them, branding them, and imposing our own narrow minded ideas on them is an insult to them and their contributions to Carnatic Music.


Now the question comes, why are most padams and javalis in Telugu. Well, most krithis are in Telugu also. Carnatic Music, far a large part of its history, has been inextricably linked with Telugu literature. So many compositions are in Telugu. That padams and javalis are in Telugu does not mean that Telugu is a language that serves the purpose of disguising lewd and obscene lyrics. This premise of the discussion deeply offended me, for I am a Teluguite myself.

Thus to conclude-

1. Padams and Javalis are not lewd.
2. Devadasis are not call girls
3. All human emotions, including love as well as Bhakti, are sacred and must be respected
4. Telugu is not a language designed to make obscenities seem beautiful

Also, Tamil Nadu is not the sole repository of rasikas. Carnatic Music is not the sole property of Tamil Nadu, and no composition has ever been tailored to suit the tastes of the Tamilian rasika. These compositions were composed as an expression of the poet’s soul and mind, and not composed keeping in mind what the Tamilian Rasika may think about the lyrics. There are Telugu and Kannadiga and Malayali and who knows, even Dutch rasikas also, and Carnatic Music belongs to the world at large, not just the Tanjore belt.

Apologies if this seemed rude. I have the greatest respect for all the rasikas and musicians and composers of the past and present. But reading some of the comments in this thread have affected and hurt me deeply.
Last edited by Ananthakrishna on 31 Mar 2021, 19:21, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

p-318
https://sites.google.com/site/dhyanaslokam/home
--
You must be the first person to term the bond between Lord Ramachandra and Hanuman as Srungara'!
Gay crowd?

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

p-319
-----
pure drivel I strongly suggest that you create a blog and air your views there and allow comments in reply. That would enable me to rebut you suitably . This forum is not suitable for that.
And do not call me mama'. It has a very bad meaning iin Thamizh slang. and I hate such 'familiarity.
It is not necessary to use names . Just the post number will do.
Are you hurt by my ideas? no apologies.

Ananthakrishna
Posts: 130
Joined: 01 Nov 2019, 17:38

Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ananthakrishna »

RSR wrote: 31 Mar 2021, 18:51 p-319
-----
pure drivel I strongly suggest that you create a blog and air your views there and allow comments in reply. That would enable me to rebut you suitably . This forum is not suitable for that.
I do already have a blog dedicated to Carnatic Music. I’d welcome your comments. A link to it is given below.

www.carnaticconnection.wordpress.com
And do not call me mama'. It has a very bad meaning iin Thamizh slang. and I hate such 'familiarity.
I respect your wishes, and have edited my previous post.


I do not wish to enter a religious debate, but in the Valmiki Ramayanam as well as the regional version of the Ramayanam extant in Andhra Pradesh (don’t know about other states and so won’t comment), the description of Lord Rama as done by Hanuman is very detailed. Hanuman eloquently describes his physical beauty. In the Ramayanam, numerous references to his beauty are made in a sringaram fashion, and not just by Seeta. The Ramayanam contains all the Rasas, and Sringararasa is one of those! If you have a working knowledge of Telugu, I’d recommend that you listen to what eminent scholar Shree Garikapati Narasimha Rao garu has to say on this topic.

shreyas
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Joined: 03 Mar 2018, 13:16

Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shreyas »

As Ananthakrishna has stated, there are descriptions of Rama by Hanuman that we understand to be outpourings of his Bhakti. Religiously, Hanuman has been and will always be my favourite out of the Hindu pantheon, so I am not anti-religious or anything of that sort when I say that this is in fact the case. On the other hand, once the argument devolves into personal attacks and insults there is no purpose to pursuing it further, since any point, regardless of its cogency, will be dismissed and gratuitously attacked. The thread was about Telugu as ‘camouflage,’ and that is an idea I vehemently disagree with. I am entirely open to further discussion on that.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

p-322
I do not know Telugu. I have read the translations of Thyagaraja Swami and Shyama Sastry through Sri.Govindans blog pages.
I have read translations of Kshthrayya padams and of Anna,ayya 'romantic' kruthis - in English
---
That the padams of Kshetrayya were of nice music but lewd , is an opinion of many musicians and writers.

Do you seriously believe that the Trinity used the Vaathsyayana Sutram idiom in their kruthis ?

And finally, let me tell you in all honesty, that for people of my generation, who had exposure to classical music through radio and 'plates' only, MS ,DKP,NCV, MMI, GNB, MMD, MUSIRI were just names. Rarely did magazines have any photo even. Same about VeeNa Dhanam, Brundha and Muktha. For us, they were their music. Nobody knew of their biography. How does it matter? How does it help in understanding the quality of their music? Why do some loonies go about shouting about caste in every available platform? Character assassination.
Do not mention names. If you have positive comments about any musician, surely, you are welcome to share in the forum.
Critical comments are best kept with yourself and posted in your personal blog. I have reported your post as in very bad taste.
All over our country, Raamayanam is a sacred lore. You just do not understand the meaning of the word 'srungaram .
How can I be more explicit? Since you pretend not to understand, I will say that details of union and 'play' are not meant to be shared in public.
Kamba Ramayanam in Thamizh is our treasure.
I request the mods to lock this thread.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

p-322
I do not know Telugu. I have read the translations of Thyagaraja Swami and Shyama Sastry through Sri.Govindans blog pages.
I have read translations of Kshthrayya padams and of Anna,ayya 'romantic' kruthis - in English
---
That the padams of Kshetrayya were of nice music but lewd , is an opinion of many musicians and writers.

Do you seriously believe that the Trinity used the Vaathsyayana Sutram idiom in their kruthis ?

And finally, let me tell you in all honesty, that for people of my generation, who had exposure to classical music through radio and 'plates' only, MS ,DKP,NCV, MMI, GNB, MMD, MUSIRI were just names. Rarely did magazines have any photo even. Same about VeeNa Dhanam, Brundha and Muktha. For us, they were their music. Nobody knew of their biography. How does it matter? How does it help in understanding the quality of their music? Why do some loonies go about shouting about caste in every available platform? Character assassination.
Do not mention names. If you have positive comments about any musician, surely, you are welcome to share in the forum.
Critical comments are best kept with yourself and posted in your personal blog. I have reported your post as in very bad taste.
All over our country, Raamayanam is a sacred lore. You just do not understand the meaning of the word 'srungaram .
How can I be more explicit? Since you pretend not to understand, I will say that details of union and 'play' are not meant to be shared in public.
Kamba Ramayanam in Thamizh is our treasure.
I request the mods to lock this thread.

The Lost Melodies
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by The Lost Melodies »

Raamayanam is a sacred lore. You just do not understand the meaning of the word 'srungaram .
Have you read Kishkindha Kandam of Sri Valmiki Ramayanam?

shankarank
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

#169 might have escaped the attention of some. I will re-post. That is Prof. Pranatharthiharan ( his father was a samskrita scholar in Tiruvaiyaru college - who also never graced the Aradhana)
shankarank wrote: 20 Feb 2020, 11:11
vgovindan wrote: 19 Feb 2020, 23:16 Ramana Maharshi whose 'who am I?' type of enquiry approach did not work with some; then, he asked them to go for devotion.
https://youtu.be/F-Wc4RqHWBY?t=130 - so there is the nayaka-nAyaki bhava - RamaNa refers to aruNAcalESvara!

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

p-326
No. I have not read Kishkintha canto in original. I have read SundharaKaandam . The Best.
I have read VVS Iyers translation of Kamba RamaayaNam. and have read Kamaban.soriginal and heard some renditions from Kamban by Smt.MS
And Hanuman Chalisa.
Parts of Tulasidas Ramayan in Hindi ( translation.)
and some political lectures by com.P.Jeevaanandam extolling not merely the poetical excellence of Kamba Ramaayanam but the fine values stressed by Valmiki ( 700 BC) and enhanced by Kamban ( 1100 AD).
And, 'Lectures on Rammayana ' by Srinivasa Sastry ( English) with quotations in Sanskrit.
That much is enough.
The great message of Rama's life is Aeka Pathni Vratham and the glory of Sita's chastity.
'maa jaanaki ' of Thyagaraja.
And ofcourse, 'Chakravarthi Thirumagan by Rajaaji.
I am in agreement with Rajaji's approach. Reject as spurious whatever is not in tune with 99 % of the theme and spirit of any great work. and life.

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

p-326
TLM
----
I am now reading Kishkintha canto.
Half-way through... I suppose , you are referring to the first chapter where Lord Raachandra is lamenting about his separation from Janaki. There are no vulgar words or descriptions at all.
===
Anyway, thank you for motivating me to read Valmiki again.
Would like to share this gem

https://valmikiramayan.net/utf8/kish/sa ... _frame.htm

उक्तसः तु रामेण लक्ष्मणो वाक्यम् इदम् अब्रवीत् |
न अहम् जानामि केयूरे न अहम् जानामि कुण्डले || ४-६-२२
नूपुरे तु अभिजनामि नित्यम् पाद अभिवंदनात् |
22. evam uktaH tu raameNa = thus said, but, by Rama; lashmanaH = Lakshmana; vaakyam idam abraviit = sentence, this said; aham keyuure na jaanaami = I, bracelets, do not, know; aham na jaanaami kunDale = I, do not, know, earrings; nityam paada abhivandanaat = always, to feet, because I salute; nuupure tu = anklets, but; abhijanaami = I know them well.
When Rama thus said Lakshmana said this, "I know not the bracelets and I know not the earrings But because I always salute her feet I know these anklets well...[4-6-22]
This is a celebrated and controversial stanza. This is not found in ancient manuscripts or in Baroda version. Hanuma inspects the ornaments of Seetha in captivity in Sundara Kanda and a list is narrated there. But here, though no such listing is given, Lakshmana says he does not know the ornaments of upper body, but is aware of the anklets, for he always adores the feet of Seetha. The traditionalists attribute the kainkarya, the dedicated character to Lakshmana, and establish this verse as a supreme characterization of Lakshmana. Lakshmana regards Seetha as one of his mother. The wife of an elder brother is just another mother.
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When Lakshmana meets his mother and informs her that he is going to forest with Rama, his mother does no wailing.
She simply says, " hereafter consider Rama as your father Dasaratha, and Sita as your mother-me"
Srinivasa Sastry quotes these lines in wonderment of the poet's wealth of meaning and brevity of words.
Last edited by RSR on 02 Apr 2021, 15:58, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

p-319
-----
@Ananthakrishna
A humble request.
Kindly remove that post-319.
At least remove the para where you speak of Smt.MS and her mother VeeNa exponent Madurai Shanmugavadivu.
There is a great write up about MS's mother by Kalki but it is in Thamizh.
Go slow. You are too young to write much. about personalities.
.

Govindaswamy
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Govindaswamy »

Did Sitha carry all her jewels while going to the forest.

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

p-331
@Govindaswamy
Janaki was just a little girl of say, fifteen when she left with Rama to the forest. She was hardly aware of what life in forest meant. and with Rama by his side, she had nothing to fear.and nothing to desire. Before leaving she is said to have told a minister to take care of her pets. So child-like.
There are certain ornaments like mangala-haram,ear-rings, bangles and anklerts that women of India do not part with, not because they are in gold but they are sacred .
And after all, she was a princess.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Govindaswamy wrote: 03 Apr 2021, 08:45 Did Sitha carry all her jewels while going to the forest.
Sita went to the forest adorned with "a garland, an apparel, jewels, a scented cosmetic and rare body-cream."

These were gifts presented to her by the Great ascetic Anasuya, wife of Rishi Atri, when she was leaving for the forest.

(Valmiki Ramayana, Ayodhya Kanda, Chapters 117, 118)

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

p-319
@Ananthakrishna
refer to my earlier post at p-80
Answers all your 'learned' and putrid points
-----
certain things , like marital union in life , are not for public gaze.
Even westerners frown on blue films.
-----
I tried to visit your blog site but my browser says the site is dangerous. and fraudulent ! Kindly check up.

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ananthakrishna »

RSR wrote: 03 Apr 2021, 11:12 p-319
@Ananthakrishna
refer to my earlier post at p-80
Answers all your 'learned' and putrid points
-----
I have read post 80 and my own many times now. I found absolutely nothing "putrid" or disrespectful in what I wrote. MSS belonged to a lineage of Devadasis and there is nothing disrespectful in describing her as such. I was not the person who disrespected and insulted an entire sect of society, by calling them "call girls", and thereby exposed a narrow minded, ignorant mindset.

I think we should all be allowed to call a spade a spade. MSS amma was a great woman and I have the greatest respect for her, and I particularly respect the Devadasi tradition to which she belonged. It is not shameful to be one, and they are not "call girls". Much of our music and culture has survived because of their tradition. Anyone who criticizes the Devadasi tradition as being immoral and lewd, and then praises MSS, Brinda-Muktha, MLV e.t.c is not only engaging in ridiculous double speak, but also insulting the greats like MSS, Brinda-Muktha, MLV e.t.c.

Please read the writings of Bangalore Nagaratnamma on this topic.
I tried to visit your blog site but my browser says the site is dangerous. and fraudulent ! Kindly check up.
If that link didn't work, please try this one.

https://carnaticconnection.wordpress.com/
Last edited by Ananthakrishna on 03 Apr 2021, 14:49, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

'calling a spade '.. etc. How much do you know about the spade? Absolutely nothing original mr. Who told you that the temple dancers were the custodians of Carnatic music? May be of dance and dance music only.
How many of them have been mentioned even in SSP?
I suppose, the Dasa musicians, the predecessors of the Trinity, the Trinity, contemporaries of the Trinty and the first generation of Thyagaraja Swami's disciples, learned CM from courtesans? Rubbish.

RasikasModerator3
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RasikasModerator3 »

Kindly cool your tempers down gentlemen. This is now beginning to cross a limit and the thread is going off topic.

Thank you for your cooperation.

shreyas
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shreyas »

@RSR I will just say one thing; if the devadasi tradition had not existed, the padam as we know it today would have been virtually extinct.

SrinathK
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by SrinathK »

@shreyas, You are talking to a man who wants Annamacharya's padams and even benign varnams burned down. He also wants to destroy the vivadi ragas and insist we get rid of R3, G1, N1 and D3 and use only HM notation. He would be very happy to see many artistes lose their livelihood from stage performances and thinks videos are a sin.

What more to discuss with those who won't listen? Let us move on to another thread.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 0.ece/amp/

Can the mods kindly lockdown this thread for a while?

RasikasModerator1
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RasikasModerator1 »

Dear members, in response to numerous complaints we are temporarily locking this thread. Please express your views gracefully, and refrain from making offending or provocative remarks again and again.

Locked