Raga Tarangini - debate on old vs new versions

[shankarank]

@shankarank And your point is what exactly?

My point was subtly made by itself when scholarship requirement was suggested and highlighted in my response;) . I just added some satirical sauce to it. If an engaged listener cannot find critical rAgA difference, then what good it is to be argued as a "lost" rAgA! - that is my socio-political stance

Please list some of these that you have this problem with.

This one, nArirItigauLa, the tarangini as sung by some recently as the "original" version!

Whatever gave you the idea that "easy identification" is a criterion that composers concern themselves with?

Well I am not imposing the condition that composers should concern with an identifiable rAgA svarUpa. As I have always said the whole composition is music in several dimensions .

And do not find a political motive for every other research.

Actually I did not read Dr. Aravindan's research until your asked me to! I was coming on my own after listening to an Alapana and other vibes, which were accompanied by socio-political views about changes made to rAgAs. Thanks to him, we are given a possibility that D2 was also present in some records, but still we may not be able to connect SrI Musiri's first record to the presence of such a version. So my issue is not with his research!

[SrinathK]

All the old ragas are quite distinguishable if a little effort is spent just identifying their key swaras and phrases just like any other raga.

Old tarangini is a very distinct and beautiful raga, it is a raganga mela (26th) and the ssp version of mayE is very special - I can't believe how it has been converted to some kind of vakra harikambhoji that is being sung now. It's a downgrade musically speaking.

We have a TLM recording of it by Dr. A. I have learnt it myself from the book and if you want I will skip my alphabetical posting and write up on old tarangini.

I have heard some singers claiming they're singing it as per the old ways, but a quick check reveals they're not. No, that's a scam, the claim of singing SSP based versions that aren't based on it at all. I know the song and the raga. It is exquisite.

PS : I never imagined a day would come where the world actually had to put up with my non musical voice or my amateurish violin skills, but if it comes to that, I guess I might have no choice but to record many of these ssp versions myself, at least in private.

[nAdopAsaka]

There are 2 Dikshitar kritis "pAlaya mAm parameSwarI" and "mAyE tvam" in Tarangini ?

Dikshitar uses the phrase "sudHA tarangini tarangini' in "mAye tvam"
(I wonder if this repetition is merely the poet ? ) and "sadguruguhAnta raHNgiNi" in "pAlaya mAm"..

Is there any difference known between these two kritis..is there a separate raga sudhA-tarangini ?

At least one should sound like chArukeSI ?

[SrinathK]

No. There is no other tarangiNi. The word sudha does not contribute to the raga name. Unless you count the "modern" tarangini under 28th mela in which mAyE is sung today, which is almost another senchuruTTi.

I am very surprised to find a kriti called pAlaya mAm parameshwari in charukEshi, a raga pioneered by Thyagaraja! Let someone else clarify the lyrics, and whether it is really of MD's standard or whether it is patched up from lyrics in other kritis, but melodically, as much as these songs appeal to the ears and emotions, the music is not Dikshitar's at all.

To make things worse, this is being used to equate charukEshi and tarangiNi? Absolutely Scandalous!

The composers of these tunes and many of these guru guha kritis in new age ragas would do better to identify themselves and their sources in the sampradaya and rasikas would do well to find out who first started singing them.

Honesty is a basic ethic. You can go see the case of a badly composed attempt at passing off a kriti as that of Thyagaraja in his thread in vaggeyakaras, there is a whole set of them like that. We haven't found something that bad in MD's case, but patching up a samaskrita kriti with commonly used words is very much possible and has been done with Dikshitar - one can see a noticeable drop in the lyrical level if you compare some of these with his original work.

I don't mind someone else using guru guha in their lyrics (though I'd advise against it) or composing their works in his style, provided they clarify it's their work. But completely retuning his extant work beyond recognition, wiping out a tradition or even passing their works off as his? This is exactly the kind of spurious plagiarism business that should be condemned. It is unethical. And shankarank wonders why I parodied it...

@nAdopAsaka, Old tarangini is actually closest to vAsanti, believe it or not. It is quite different from charukeshi and no one who has properly heard the two would mistake one for the other.

Let's save the rest of the discussion for the tarangiNi thread.

[rshankar]

So, here’s Rajani’s translation of pAlaya mAm paramESvari: http://guru-guha.blogspot.com/2008/02/d ... i.html?m=1

[SrinathK]

So, here’s Rajani’s translation of pAlaya mAm paramESvari: http://guru-guha.blogspot.com/2008/02/d ... i.html?m=1

Compare it with a kriti like pavanAtmaja or saraswati chayatarangini. Is it on the same level we expect from MD?

[nAdopAsaka]

PP Narayanaswami’s compendium and the TK Govinda Rao book reflect both these kritis in so-called TarangiNI.

It is the TKG book that ascribes the “mAye” kriti to both 26 and 28th melas (and also uses this sudHa-tarangiNI name)

I am assuming the ever-present constables of the moderators will allow this discussion to continue although it is not strictly about Abheri..

I thought it could be interesting to examine where else Dikshitar uses this “pAlaya” motif….it is a convenient way
“to beseech” the deities.

Generally Dikshitar is quite democratic , i.e. addresses most of the deities in such common usages similar to kritis using “bhajeham” or “Namaste”…(ref. post # 408 in Muthuswamy Dikshitar thread).. .although “pAlaya” seems more like a construct the Maharaja uses.

Well , sure enough (assuming these are valid kritis !) there are several..and all the major deities are covered , except Anjaneya.

I made a list…
mahAgaNapatE pAlayAshu mAm - nata nArayANI
pAlayamAm pArvatIsha - kannaDa
mArakOTi lAvaNya mAm pAlaya - Arabhi
sEnApatE pAlayamAm - kAshIrAmakriya
vamshavati shivayuvati pAlaya mAm - vamshavati /
niSadhAdi dEshAdhipatinuta nIlakaNThEsha pAlayamAm - niSadham
mAtaHNgi marakatAHNgi mAm pAlaya - dhauta paHncamam
jHnAnAmbikE pAlaya mAM shrI – sEnAgraNi
pAlayamAM bRhadIshvari bhaktajanAvana shaHNkari – tODi
tyAgarAja pAlayAshu mAM – gauLa
bAlagOpAla pAlaya Ashu mAM - bhairavi
pAlayamAM bRhadIshvara pAlita bhuvanEshvara – nAyaki
svAminAtha paripAlayAshu mAM – nATa

So we can ask…is pAlaya mAM paramEshvarI – taraHNgiNi an outlier in this set put together by
[1] a determined “identity forger” hell-bent on nefarious activity…
OR
[2] is Dikshitar merely following his already well tested (in the list above) mode of entreaty and applying the pAlaya entreaty to this form of the devi.

The former (i.e. the forger) would have had to sift thru the other kritis/deities to pick the parameSwari deity as a new entity to add this to the list..which seems a bit far-fetched compared to the latter (i.e. Dikshitar doing this organically) ..

We maybe should go further.

The kriti under question in this current discussion uses the words “sAmarasya nidarshiNI” which are (tellingly !!) the very the last words of the Ahiri navAvarana, arguably the zenith of Dikshitars musical treatise !

Nowehere else is this exact description of Devi used by Dikshitar..!!..

Would Dikshitar have used this phrase only one other time in all his 400-500 kritis, in an off-beat less-heard rAga surrounded by somewhat pedestrian words merely to rhyme “nidarshiNI” with “tarangiNI” (due to his preoccupation with raga mudra embedding)
OR
is it a thoughtless usage by a careless or crooked descendant (or student or forger) not realizing the significance or larger context of the Ahiri but merely cobbling together yet another forgery..

The tAlam difference between mAye and this krityi is also suggestive, generally tAla change is employed by Dikshitar within kritis of same raga..

[SrinathK]

TKG was considered to be the best resource out there till now, no doubt given what information he had, but in light of more recent findings coming out, some of that material must really be re-examined. There are kritis not in SSP or DKP or other sources that are labelled under the old school of ragas, but nowhere you will be able to get hold of any recording which isn't in a modern tune, raga and style. All those should be on the radar, esp the M.Chapu and K.Chapu kritis because now we know he didn't use those talas.

I think many people not knowing samaskritam have seriously underestimated the originality in MD's lyrics.

Go on, I think I can publish a guide on "How to make fake Dikshitar kriti" if I keep finding more stuff.

[Suryasriram]

I think many people not knowing samaskritam have seriously underestimated the originality in MD's lyrics.

Go on, I think I can publish a guide on "How to make fake Dikshitar kriti" if I keep finding more stuff.

It is mostly easy to identify the original Dikshitar Kritis from the spurious ones, since the language and description, though researched well in the spurious kritis, do not have the same quality as those of Dikshitar himself.

But I feel some kritis like the ones on Lord Ekamranatha are spurious, based not on the lyrics but on the structuring of the raga, like in the case of the Chaturangini kriti, which very sparingly uses gandharam (in Sundaram Iyer's publication) and handles the vivadi dha very differently.

Coming to the topic of the thread, I personally feel that while the current Abheri has come to stay (and therefore will not be renamed), the Abheri of Veenabheri is certainly unique, and has its own melodic identity.

Maybe for demarcation we could give it an initial like D.Abheri (Dikshitar Abheri, though that might not be the best choice).

[sureshvv]

Maybe for demarcation we could give it an initial like D.Abheri (Dikshitar Abheri, though that might not be the best choice).

Interesting idea. Why not Musiri Abheri for the popular version? Good way to assign credit(?) too!

[shankarank]

This is exactly the kind of spurious plagiarism business that should be condemned. It is unethical. And shankarank wonders why I parodied it...

It is not so long ago that the way this is sung here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4rZeBzECnA on how tvam is handled - well again not specifically not about this kriti or rAgA - in general any approach whatsoever like this was not considered sampradAyA. You have to remember, even if the direct lineages of SrI dIkshitar existed and may have preserved it in their form as how they got it, the general musical sampradaya ecosystem was functioning where bEgaDa and sahAna were the main staple of Carnatic music. The direct lineages were either not performing in concert circuit , or SrI dikshitar's compositions were emerging only later by the spearheaders of the same.

It is also not so long ago, that prof. SRJ was making a point that , a svaram if it should be held plainly , should be held in that form and not every note be oscillated. So if he is making that point in 2002, even after 50 years of light music bombardment, then we can work back to see what was the view of the sampradaya in the past!

Coming back to the specific musician cited, plenty of youngsters not oldies, who were thick inside the musical system, not musicians you know the close knit kinds who were students of prominent musicians, and males too to boot, were parroting how DR BMK is not sampradaya only as recently as 1998 when he visited Cleveland. And there was another one , ( he posted once this forum) , a friend whom I am not in touch, a deep insider, even quoted Semmangudi Mama on his views of Dr. BMK's music in the context of "sampradAyam".

To their credit the old Mr. Marathi Grundig tape collector would generously share what he called recordings of Dr. BMK, when he was singing "mainstream" as he put it.

Now back to the specific composition, the Grundig tape collector reminisced an anecdote of somebody with audacity to ask Dr. BMK , why he is singing mAyE like that, is it sampradAyic? Well Dr. BMK's response, "SrI dIkshitar is a composer and similarly I am a composer - so I know how it would have been composed!!" - essentially telling the person that since he is not a composer, he had no locus standi on this issue

Given this backdrop, I don't think it is a wilful distortion! They received it in their capacity of how "they" viewed music. That in itself is a beauty. After all Sri dIkshitar however illustrious, is forced to reckon with prevailing sampradAya which has continuity with the past on it's own standing, beyond him.

In this generation, we have developed more sensibility to be more receptive to such handling of svaras, and that is just a gift of the time. Lets us not misuse it to misjudge the past musicians!

All this authenticity discussion is fine, but it cannot come and beat people up!

In this specific composition, one cannot miss that it starts like cencuruTTi and then takes a detour, even in it's reconstructed form!

[SrinathK]

You just want to stay with tarangiNi in Abheri thread don't you. I don't think you realize the value of what we have lost. And it is you who have chosen to interpret my post as an attempt to beat others up and kept the topic running for 42 posts on those lines so far. No I haven't. You said that. I'm just telling what happened. If ragas have changed, it is natural to ask who changed them and how. Obviously only by us homo sapiens. You are ironically accusing me of controversy just for saying it. You're taking this way too personally.

You have so far not replied to my post on a "guru guha" kriti in charukeshi. You are simply looking at stylistic variations of BMK. This goes beyond that. If you feel your music is what you want to sing, and you have enough musical skill, then perhaps you should go the full distance and sing your own compositions. That would require more than just swara skill. BMK did do that. At the very least, one should be like Subbarama Dikshitar who explicitly clarified that he used Thyagaraja's tunes for a couple of his compositions. That is honesty and giving due respect to another composer. You are saying I should not point out the fact because it is an attack on someone?

Similarly, one may very well say "I tuned this." But then the orthodoxy would frown on it. So a lot of changes happen in secrecy and then they have been presented as if they are genuine. This is dishonest and it is not a healthy way to innovate in CM. You will see more and more, just wait. There's a point after you have seen maybe the 200th composition like this, where you can no longer ignore this. Such behaviour is very common in strict orthodox societies, not just in music.

So you just don't want to stop debating on tarangini and must somehow have the last word in. So let me share with you mAyE as it once was, the real one, with the anupallavi and charanams in the proper order :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCvrWmr6048

Yes, that is the old tarangini. No not those other spurios D1 taranginis. This is tarangiNi, the 26th raganga raga.

This rendition isn't perfect. There are a few issues - when you see the notation in the SSP. The handling of tvam in the pallavi is simplified - just a straight slide down to p. Actually it needs to come from the lower D1 as S,,,(d)p,,, || d,,,S -- either with a slide or without.

Also except for the first line that starts from M, because all lines end on R2, all other lines on mAyE should start on G as (g)M,, G RG MG (R)S,,, (d)p,,,d,,,S,-d, S, RG, MGR || (g)M,, - otherwise it may create the impression that a GRM is structural. It isn't. That is a nice little touch.

The kriti tempo does look brisk based on the presence of some 3rd speed passages, however it is absolutely brilliant in pathos in the slow tempo -- and that's where I enjoy singing it. Fast feels peppy. Slow, it's haunting.

More on this in the thread on tarangiNi. You can see that tarangini is actually a raga filled with romantic sadness and pathos. But these days, pleading with maya to leave and not make one suffer any further, has been turned into a celebration. In the process of change, we have lost a whole raga, a very beautiful one at that. To rediscover them is to add value back to our music.

You can have the last word about the modern version being "superior" and the socio political whatever, but honestly, this isn't the vidwans and vidushis thread or even the vaggeyakaras section, it's the ragas section, so we will totally be getting into the nuts and bolts into ragas. There will be some musicology.

Ragas change, we only change them, and while some people take that up as an attack, for me it's perfect fuel for humorous story writing. I will give you one for gurjari. But that doesn't mean ragas and kritis one day gained a mind of their own and changed themselves and ordered us to follow suit.

[Vakulabharana]

this generation, we have developed more sensibility to be more receptive to such handling of svaras, and that is just a gift of the time.

Again your statement is judgemental. Sensibility is subjective. Don't misinterpret this statement and create an image I am against present day music. I do enjoy the music in its present form. What I wish to say is you cannot be subjective when you discuss a topic like this.

When you listen to old records, you can understand very well that 'past musicians' gave much importance to svara sthanas than gamakas.

Lets us not misuse it to misjudge the past musicians!

What made you say this ? Illustrate.

I have clarified well before that we are not against the present system. We just want to get the old music archived.

[Vakulabharana]

The handling of tvam in the pallavi is simplified - just a straight slide down to p.

I asked for an explanation from Dr Aravind through the mail and here is his reply.

"It is given as spd for tvam, wherein dha is a gamaka and not a svara. I feel a gamaka is to be shown subtly than a svara. Gamaka is added to a svara and they are not included while reckoning a tala. Contrarily a svara is. Here, sp was not sung plain. Similarly, maaye is started from ga (which is a gamaka and shown subtly) and not from ma. Yes, I do expect more perfection in my own renditions and I am working on that. Perhaps, after few years, these minor issues too will be solved by the grace of Isvara and Subbarama Diksitar.
I am much happy that the versions by The Lost Melodies is serving the purpose it is intended to".

[SrinathK]

PS : If I don't write about it, this trend will keep going. It was rampant in the 19th century when there was no way to record. Only because of recordings this trend came down over time in the 20th century. Now 20 years in the 21st century, we have lots of information where we can look back about 170 to 200 years and examine the changes and the consequences of these changes. What I see is that this trend has gone far beyond manodharma, adding sangatis, neraval, kalapramana changes, increasing the weight of the krithis, kalpanaswaras and gamakas. It has now come to a point where for better or worse, the music has clearly changed totally and while many changes (like tODi becoming a massive raga) have worked out, on many occasions like this, we are the loser.

Also there are spurious compositions going around which are not the composer's works. At the very least, the tunes are totally not theirs but we are not allowed to ask questions. This is a malpractice. It should be addressed transparently IMHO. Such works should be attributed to their real makers. Someone has to bell the cat, only then this will stop. Or else we will see more "sivAparAdhamu seya rAdu" kritis. viewtopic.php?p=363484#p363484 - You are saying I should keep silent about a song like this passing off as a Thyagaraja kriti? No.

This will keep going until we start encouraging musicians to make and present their own original compositions. And clearly they have enough skills to do it, so let us encourage it. In the 21st century, many musicians of the next generation I see are becoming more conscious about this and do take more care. Musicians are even singing their own compositions more often in recent concerts and I welcome that trend.

I am not targeting any musician I have a tiff with or something. I am merely criticizing some unhealthy practices. All I am saying is, a)don't forget the past and b)innovate transparently. There are many beautiful things in old music which would enhance today's music. Abheri and tarangini are two such ragas, and there are many more.

@shankarank I didn't want to take the discussion to this point. I only wanted to write about ragas, and I have wanted to do so for many years. But when you do, after a point, it does force us to ask these questions. You were the one who first took it down this alley. No this isn't a conspiracy to make modern concert music and musicians look bad - why would I spend my time writing a 4 hour review and attending 4 concerts a day on some days if that was the case? No. It's just learning from the past. If some people get worked up about it, get very defensive, deflect or feel a need to fight back, maybe they should ask themselves why they feel so. Perhaps they're just going through the 5 stages of grief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_stages_of_grief

[SrinathK]

With this, I am going back to Dikshitar's AbhEri now : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XICA270RN4M - there is some additional info in the video slides.

Interestingly, in Walajapettai manuscripts, nagumomu is mentioned as composed in ghaNTA!! But no notation, alas.

Now you know the inspiration for my story of the mysterious lady.

It is also a myth that the old music doesn't hold up well on today's stage. In fact after attending many programmes by organizations like guruguha trust, I see it is perfectly comfortable. As an example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAKOF41vWlY

[shankarank]

In today's stage as I acknowledged anything will hold up. All great works have insertions (idaicerugal) and that is never erased , even if current literary scholars identify it as such. Historiography is a recent pass time, and people before were a collective ones, not individualistic like people now. So we cannot ascribe rights to composers, like "SrI dikshitar deserves his compositions to be kept in pristine pure form!".

SrI Vijay Siva was asked about DKP/DKJ sessions with TLV - in the octaves interview in facebook recently. He simply said, the former had to do a lot of work themselves as TLV was not a musician. Lot of times he would just approve of what they themselves sang - after the fact!

There was no standard being kept and hence people would have experimented. We cannot throw terms like ethics and honesty, which have lost their meaning even in their modern avatar, at them, without understanding what was possible then!

[SrinathK]

You so far haven't discussed any of the music itself - not the guruguha charukeshi kriti, not the old tarangini or SSP mAyE, nor the fake Thyagaraja kriti with frankly bizarre lyrics. All that is ignored and you have diverted the issue. I am supposed to not point these things out on rasikas.org or else it's a personal attack on modern musicians according to you?

Historiography is a recent pass time, and people before were a collective ones, not individualistic like people now. So we cannot ascribe rights to composers, like "SrI dikshitar deserves his compositions to be kept in pristine pure form!".

I don't know what to even make of this - rationalization?? Seriously sir, what does this statement mean?

All I see reading between the lines is that you have made out Dikshitar as a lesser musician to later ones which somehow justifies changing his entire music tradition by people who apparently have much more musical talent. I am afraid you are not yet aware of the kind of genius possessed by that whole family.

And your argument fails to hold up to detailed scrutiny. Not all the new versions are musically superior either. In many cases, it's a loss for the music. In Dikshitar's case, lyrically and musically, many of the spurious compositions or modernized versions are watered down compared to his original. One can as an example see 'brhadeeshvarau rakshatu mam' or even sree vishwanatham or kalabhairavam bhajeham, sri mangalambikAm, chintaye mahalingam, sri meenakshi gauri, etc. all as per SSP - they are all superior to any popular version sung today. I seriously question your comment on his musical sensitivity.

Actually the SSP is the resource for Dikshitar, and the fact that very few people seem to have really looked into it in the last 100 years (not to mention many of us who ironically debate it without having opened even a single page in SSP to see what's in it) doesn't mean there is nothing to support the Dikshitar parampara. I am also guilty of arguing like this in the past, now I know better. You are making uninformed arguments.

All of us have our likes and dislikes and different emotions about a particular rendition. I never object to that. It is fine so long as we don't invent false logic to support what is really an emotional and personal matter. You can say you prefer listening to the modern versions, but you went overboard to defend your feelings.

Will you agree and keep arguing like this if someone takes Lalgudi's revati tillana and plays it in madhyamavati and claims madhyamavati as revati? Yes it will still sound beautiful, I am sure that later musicians can even add sangatis and all sorts of touches and manodharma to it, but one should not claim that this is what the composer originally wrote or is his intent or that is even the raga. One may honestly claim they have changed the tune, or composed based on the structure of that work - everyone who hears it should also be made aware of it. But even then, despite full disclosure, do you think the Lalgudi parampara Or a discerning audience would let me get away with this stunt today?

You know, I think, the best argument is to let the music speak for itself. It deserves to be heard after being forgotten for so many years. In all the 47 odd posts since we started arguing (to no end of course ), I could have resumed my raga posts and written about a raga or two and a few compositions by now. So I am going to do just that.

I do appreciate that after a very long time we have a good long discussion on rasikas.org on the music itself even if it gets heated now and then. It does feel for a minute like the good old days.

[shankarank]

If Dr. BMK's approach to rAgAs were not acceptable to all of the traditional audience that have supported the core of the art, Same way, one should not demand that the Dikshitar school's music should have been accepted as is! And we shouldn't think everything is about just the rAgA. His sAhitya by itself is a treasure!

If only in 80s and 90s people were not are not so accepting of pathos filled music, to expect the same back then is unfair. You are suggesting everything that would have worked towards the loss of sAhitya also, just because you have access to a copy of the "book".

And the mAyE tvam that you posted by some unknown curative freelancer; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCvrWmr6048 ! Given the grain of musical approach in those days, how would this be accepted? We are talking a narrow window of 1920 thru 1940 , the period of transition after which the focus was on lot of other things. Sri dIkshitar was never sung on stage and SrI tyAgarAja himself was just making it. We should understand the context.

If it was karaharapriya for T, it was mAyAmALava GauLa for D. I guess we should add this obsessive d1 to his list as well. I shudder to think what would have happened to them , if there weren't a battery of well developed pUrva prasiddha rAgAs that were available for them to compose with.

Barring the laya in the compositions, a lot of it is unlistenable on the face of it. Both "T" and "D". Carnatic music already carried a stereo-type of sOham filled music, and some rAgAms are azhudu-vadincufying in a different sense ( not sadness, but lack of resonance) to paraphrase it in tamizh.

If SD had documented, who was teaching and who was learning the right versions? Where is the Sruti (Oral tradition?). Who are the authentic custodians? I used to hear of VV Srivastava, the latest one. Some people mentioned, without him there is no other source of authentic information on SrI dIkshitar. In fact there was otherwise no proof that SrI dIkshitar even existed, went the argument!

You talk as if , SrI dIkshitar is some Jesus, and SD is some Paul and SSP is some bible! Such a thinking is never the way things are done here!

I am not getting into pitting modern musicians against SrI dIkshitar's greatness. It is not about that at all.

After a while it is like :
ETTuccuraikkai (karikku)mEDaikku udavAtu ( Translation : kitAb kI dUdhi sabji nahi ban saki)! Literally in English - a bottle gourd off the book does not help make a Curry dish.

The foreword in Rangaramanuja Iyengar's kriti maNi mAlai, documents the travails he went through in selling his book. He quotes a principal of a music school : "What are these dashes ? - who would learn music this way?" Another one : " Just give it to libraries!". Incidentally tarangiNi is sudha tarangini and belongs to 28 in his book! So this event is pretty old! Medieval if the trinity were to be considered as ancient in Carnatic universe.

Now "this concert music" is not all of it argument! Yeah there it was in Chamber, it was being sung - nothing was lost right??

If this is to be reconstructed, assuming no other authentic oral sources exist, fine let them do it from SSP. But it shouldn't be sold as authentic music to gain acceptability. You are even doing it only because due to popular influence, and some newly enlightened freedom that they imagine, people are willing to listen to these tunes. Otherwise you have no chance!

[shankarank]

As regards musician's swearing something as authentic, in Guru SiShya parampara whatever Guru gave one is considered "truth". Definition of the word "truth" is different here. I am not debating you, but asking to have a different perspective. Better to shed notions learnt in school / college when discussing traditions. Except science may be!

[SrinathK]

You know, I am just going to write even more about the ragas of CM thanks to comments like yours. Of course, choice is always yours to accept it or not. The forum gives everyone the right to have their opinions say what they wish, and that's fine with me. You probably are aware that Thyagaraja in his lifetime is known to have not allowed his disciples to get too liberal with his compositions and any sangatis or chittaswaras they added had to get his approval, at least while he was alive. Probably it was because, despite being a very inspired and spontaneous creator himself, he was aware of the consequences of unchecked creativity.

I am happy you finally said it, that it's more important to you present one's music and ininspiration even when singing other's works. Many others would never admit it and say that they are all singing the way their guru taught, and yet the recordings over 120 years bear out that every one ultimately desires to be original. Nevertheless one should not claim their own compositions to be the works of the Trinity, even if they use their mudras.

But say whatever you will, I am not going to stop what I started here. Many more ragas that have been long forgotten will be heard. I feel that the music will be enhanced by their presence. Right now it is too premature to even think about what the music world thinks of it, if they come to rasikas. Org at all that is. And honestly I don't care. I get my happiness from finding something new about the music everyday.

By all means call me an unknown wannabe freelancer, but I should point out, as rasikas and not established, we are all in the same boat and the entire music ecosystem itself whether it is the sabhas or the vast collections of priceless music collections or the great CM festivals, or this website, or the efforts taken to bring CM to an international stage, or the whole field of musical research, all of it started out as a creation of unknown wannabe freelancers. Later on they became well known, so I take that as a complement.

It is only human nature to scoff at and disdain what one really doesn't know. In my rather short life I have had quite a bit of unpleasant experience right from school with that. But real Vidya however brings vinayam they say. The more we go into the music, the more I realize how little I have ever known. The people who have that insight are also those who deeply love the music.

On the other hand, some of the nastiest know it all comments I've had to hear about CM have come from people who do not know anything about it. One of my friends even had the gall to ask me what crap I was listening too (it was Lalgudi Jayaraman!!) So it is true what The seers say that agnyanam is the cause of ahankaram!

Food for thought...

[bhakthim dehi]

I used to hear of VV Srivastava, the latest one. Some people mentioned, without him there is no other source of authentic information on SrI dIkshitar.

By reading your posts, I expected you to be sensible. But it is clear you know nothing .

I dont know why people waste their time with you. I should call them morons

You believe in a person who lived in a different era and not Subbarama Deekshitar who got trained from the disciple of Muthuswamy Deekshitar ? Great joke and these people are trying to explain you
and you talking about the oral tradition is the greatest joke

In fact there was otherwise no proof that SrI dIkshitar even existed, went the argument!

I expect this post to trigger you and you will come out with posts non-understandable to morons like me. I also expect to pounce on by asking for evidences.

Dont worry, I will not expose you further. You live in your own illusionary world. I am there to enjoy your posts!

[RasikasModerator2]

Folks, I think this thread which was originally about raga discussions (I think it was the first thread that @SrinathK took up on ragas) is been diverted off topic into unnecessarily controversial waters. As far as I can make out @shankarank seems to have decided to pick a fight over the story of the changed Abheri and then the thread crossed over to tarangini and then it started gettinf heated between everyone.

But last few posts especially seem to be taking a turn for the worse with unnecessary personal and discouraging remarks, name calling and even more controversial statements. It seems to have gone even to the composers. It is high time to put a stop before the mud slinging gets worse.

With the forum having resumed musical discussions one way or another after many complaints by members a few years back, kindly avoid throwing mud at others' contributions. You can disagree with it, but don't let it cross into very condescending personal attacks. No name calling please.

If this keeps continuing, we will put the thread under a 48 hour lockdown till heads cool and more sensible discussions can resume.

Thank you.

[shankarank]

I used to hear of VV Srivastava, the latest one. Some people mentioned, without him there is no other source of authentic information on SrI dIkshitar.

You believe in a person who lived in a different era and not Subbarama Deekshitar who got trained from the disciple of Muthuswamy Deekshitar ? you further. You live in your own illusionary world. I am there to enjoy your posts!

Those statements were made in sangeetham.com. I only quoted them. This pursuit of authenticity can lead several us to such wild detours. I quoted an example to show where all it can lead us.

[shankarank]

or even sree vishwanatham ....... all as per SSP - they are all superior to any popular version sung today. I seriously question your comment on his musical sensitivity.

The most recent version, was sung by students of RKSK , Vid. Amrita Murali and Vid. Ramakrishnamurthy. Now if you say even that falls behind the "original", then that actually proves my point. If somebody like RKSK with widest exposure to musical interactions with prior generation, that any vidvan of today can boast of, cannot match SSP "original" as per your view, it shows that musical interpretation of a notation is influenced by the convictions/knowledge base of a musician built in his/her lifetime. Which is something we should honor and cherish! That also embodies their learning outside of the documented text. That indeed is doubly authentic!

[SrinathK]

I've not heard that one yet. Let's not jump to conclusions. You've twisted the interpretation of my use of the word original a bit - it is not a personal touch when someone sings mOhana rama in vAsanti instead of mohanam, that should only be called their own composition, melodically speaking and that will never be what the composer had composed. Also If you knew a bit more about ragas and their phrases, you would refrain from commenting without knowing.

You talk as if , SrI dIkshitar is some Jesus, and SD is some Paul and SSP is some bible! Such a thinking is never the way things are done here!

Oh yeah? If Dikshitar is Jesus and SD is Paul and SSP the Bible, then that must make me a convert. Oh yeah. Know what? By extension that would make Venkatamakhi as Moses, Ramaswamy Dikshitar as John the Baptist, Dr. RSJ mami the Pope, TMK, RKSK and AP the 3 visitors, and Dr. Aravindhan as Paramahamsa Yogananda. Who should I cast you as -- doubting Thomas?

And despite this analogy, in principle, we are much closer to the Vedic brahmanas in preserving the Vedic chants. So that would make Walajapettai manuscripts the Ramayana and Thyagaraja as Valmiki. Yes, that is how things are being done over here.

Oh, and let's not side track into a rant on that. And I also ban religious followers on Twitter from getting offended over this. It's a joke, get a sense of humor! And don't waste time on Twitter

[ganesh_mourthy]

Is that seriously a carryover from sangeetham.com which was shutdown long ago? If someone is playing such a long game, (feudalism) it implies you are in a hit list Shankarank. Pls take care and tone down for the sake of your life. We all know you are impassionate but you cannot risk yourself for that.

Anyway... it was very good halfway through and has taken a detour.

[SrinathK]

Unfortunately with NCV's recording of pittan endrAlum in post #70, I have run out of material for Abheri. So it's time to move on to the next raga.

I forgot to out audio recordings for all the varieties of ghaNTA. So I'll do that next.

[shankarank]

This is not about religious branding, but the approach and mentality we have taken for long in viewing our tradition. I cited that to make clear the paradigm. The fret over lack of documentation etc. We are not a system of dogmas. We shouldn't now invent a new one over this.

There have been occasions , where some prominent dancers have rendered tyAgarAja kriti in a different rAga, but they announced it. Well it was 2002. We are talking of a period when there were no stages yet - when these changes took place if at all!

And anybody talks about Kallidakurichi lineage that much? Didn't Smt. Vedavalli learnt from one of them? I have heard how Vedanta Bhagavatar was treated. None of them were known outside their circles. Where is the socio-political if any here? All of them Brahmins! Just a pure urban nepotism after all.

Changes made could be just due to circumstances or lack of information or just the fact that Sri tyAgarAja's music held sway with most musicians! How can we now make value judgements on that?

In fact some amount of tyAgarAja footprint is needed on dIkshitar compositions in the tALa realm. That is required to make it presentable! Else they just have to play it in vINa in their homes!

[RSR]

@82
As a lay-rasika, I have clubbed together, Beemplaas by MMI, Karnataka Devagaandhaari by Smt.DKP, aaberi by Musiri and NVC, RATHIPTHIPRIYA by Dandapanu desikar. and a stanza by NCV in her famous ragamalika. However, I can sense subtle difference between each ragam as such. ( as I go purely by the ear) and ignorant of the actual notes.
I wonder how one finds jonpuri in a beemplaas song!
Learned rasikas can please write a post defining the above four ragas , * parent scale, notes used in ascending and descending, etc.
That would be educative for frets - based learners like me.
https://sites.google.com/site/hindusthaniragams
----------------------------------------------
kindly use hm style for notes.
S R1 R2 G1 G2 M1 M2 P D1 D2 N1 N2 S

[Vakulabharana]

Changes made could be just due to circumstances or lack of information or just the fact that Sri tyAgarAja's music held sway with most musicians! How can we now make value judgements on that?

No one is here interested to know the changes. Also none of us want to change the system that prevails. We all wish to get the past recorded. Don't even imaging that I will shut my ears when i hear a concert music just because i support this research. I am basically a researcher in my field and always encourage research to deepen my knowledge.

As I have mentioned earlier no one is compelling you to listen to this music.
But I will tell you, this music is catching up momentum. In the future this music too will be used as a reference.

You wish your words to be final and make to repeat us the facts again and again. I dont want to be harsh like few others here. I will rest my case.

Definitely its not we who decide to proceed or not with the research.

[nAdopAsaka]

It is stated in post # 60 of this thread that
".. But I feel some kritis like the ones on Lord Ekamranatha are spurious,
... handles the vivadi dha very differently "

I think we need to examine the Ekamranatha set as a subset of the KAnchipuram-sthala kritis of Muthuswamy before
arriving at such a conclusion.

At KAnchipuram, Dikshitar enshrines the Pruthvi lihngam (in Cintaya mA kanda) in which kriti
he does NOT mention the Ekamranatha. The consort of Shiva is noted in this pancha bhuta lihngam kriti as "bhairavi prasahngam " (see also post # 407 of Muthuswamy dikshitar thread)

At KAnchipuram several spectacular KAmAkSi kritis of Dikshitar are known (and are unchallenged so far ?!)
e.g. neerajAkSI - hindolam or the bilahari.

At Kanchipuram Shiva is recognized as Eka-Amra-Natha or the savior of a solitary mango tree (part of puranic etc. lore
at this site)..The 5-6 kritis known are written to ths Ekamranatha and appear to roughly follow a vibhakti (or grammatical declension) series though not complete...one of this Dikshitars preferred techniques.

It is true that for e.g. at Madurai, only the MeenAkshi devi is paramount..accordingly there is no dikshitar kriti for
any Shiva deity ascribed to Madurai, as far as I know..(there is Ekadantam-bilahari to the Ganapati of the site, however ref. Vegavati river )

But the legend of Ekamranatha (shiva as the mango tree savior !)
is typically the kind of aspect of a temple/deity that appeals to Dikshitar to place in his musical travelogue.

see for e.g. post 404 of Muthiswamy Dikshitar thread on akSayalinga vibho..

So I think a set of Kritis to EkAmranatha of Kanchipuram has legitimately emerged from Muthuswamy's consciousness...
entirely in keeping with his MO (modus operandi) at other sites and with other group type kritis..

The question that is perhaps being asked is whether the music ascribed to these kritis
(and now known to us, maybe thru SSP and Ambi/SubbarAma D ? )
is on par with what we think we know of the rest of Dikshitars output ???

This could be interesting to discuss after some examples of the (offending ?) kritis are first heard..

For example the gamakakriya of the Ekamranatha set could be held up for inspection versus the MeenAkSi memudam masterpiece (also unchallenged as spurious etc. so far)..which it seems Dikshitar
wanted to hear as he himself shuffled off the mortal coil !...a high standard indeed..

In general we think Muthuswamy Dikshitars kritis should have the same/uniform specialty like his very first one ! the MMGowla sri nAthAdi, but maybe this is not a reasonable expectation even for such a genius.....of course there is the possibility that later historians added their own contributions or made modifications etc. resulting in weaker versions ?

Along these lines, I notice the mAye kriti (the subject of much of the wrangling ongoing on this thread) is somewhat of an outlier from the dikshitar main-body..

The devi is not as formally addressed as in the other kritis, but more generically and the purpose of the kriti seems to be more to highlight the Yatis (collapsing phrases, gopuccha, srotovAha etc..)..which I do not find elsewhere in Dikshitar (maybe there are other examples)

Is it possible that pAlaya mAM parameSvarI (see post # 58 of this thread) has more authenticity (but vastly less notoriety and innovation) and mAye in 28th mela etc. is a later development..

[shankarank]

accordingly there is no dikshitar kriti for
any Shiva deity ascribed to Madurai, as far as I know

So these two are not Authentic?
http://guru-guha.blogspot.com/2008/10/d ... -raga.html
http://guru-guha.blogspot.com/2008/10/d ... -raga.html

[nAdopAsaka]

My mistake !

Yes ..sundareshwarAya indeed refers to madurai ksetra...and to the shiva deity there..

The other one ..I'm not sure..it refers to kamakshi and may be a nottu svara too ?


Thanks for pointing out..

[SrinathK]

Barring the laya in the compositions, a lot of it is unlistenable on the face of it. Both "T" and "D"

This is entirely a matter of subjective opinion and is no different from people who find CM or some other kind of music to be weird on their ears. I have an uncle who dislikes CM and gives me all kinds of reasons why, but it's really not because of any of those reasons. It takes time for any music to sink in. In his case, the dislike comes first, only then the reasoning.

This thread has thrown up a few surprising opinions on our composers indeed. I have no idea if anyone else on rasikas or out there shares your views, but if what you say is representative of what the broader music community themselves really feel in private, then I admit I am very surprised. I hope not. If so, I think I will simply stop listening when I hear all the cliched praises of our vaggeyakaras, because then we say would not be what we really feel, would it?

And if you really do find T&D intolerable, so after like 50 posts of arguing the real issue has emerged. Fine. But then which part of the music do you like? If you want to explore music, perhaps you should consider composing. Why should we go only half way or attribute our compositions to the Trinity?

[SrinathK]

It is stated in post # 60 of this thread that
".. But I feel some kritis like the ones on Lord Ekamranatha are spurious,
... handles the vivadi dha very differently "

I think we need to examine the Ekamranatha set as a subset of the KAnchipuram-sthala kritis of Muthuswamy before
arriving at such a conclusion.

At KAnchipuram, Dikshitar enshrines the Pruthvi lihngam (in Cintaya mA kanda) in which kriti
he does NOT mention the Ekamranatha. The consort of Shiva is noted in this pancha bhuta lihngam kriti as "bhairavi prasahngam " (see also post # 407 of Muthuswamy dikshitar thread)

At KAnchipuram several spectacular KAmAkSi kritis of Dikshitar are known (and are unchallenged so far ?!)
e.g. neerajAkSI - hindolam or the bilahari.

At Kanchipuram Shiva is recognized as Eka-Amra-Natha or the savior of a solitary mango tree (part of puranic etc. lore
at this site)..The 5-6 kritis known are written to ths Ekamranatha and appear to roughly follow a vibhakti (or grammatical declension) series though not complete...one of this Dikshitars preferred techniques.

It is true that for e.g. at Madurai, only the MeenAkshi devi is paramount..accordingly there is no dikshitar kriti for
any Shiva deity ascribed to Madurai, as far as I know..(there is Ekadantam-bilahari to the Ganapati of the site, however ref. Vegavati river )

But the legend of Ekamranatha (shiva as the mango tree savior !)
is typically the kind of aspect of a temple/deity that appeals to Dikshitar to place in his musical travelogue.

see for e.g. post 404 of Muthiswamy Dikshitar thread on akSayalinga vibho..

So I think a set of Kritis to EkAmranatha of Kanchipuram has legitimately emerged from Muthuswamy's consciousness...
entirely in keeping with his MO (modus operandi) at other sites and with other group type kritis..

The question that is perhaps being asked is whether the music ascribed to these kritis
(and now known to us, maybe thru SSP and Ambi/SubbarAma D ? )
is on par with what we think we know of the rest of Dikshitars output ???

This could be interesting to discuss after some examples of the (offending ?) kritis are first heard..

For example the gamakakriya of the Ekamranatha set could be held up for inspection versus the MeenAkSi memudam masterpiece (also unchallenged as spurious etc. so far)..which it seems Dikshitar
wanted to hear as he himself shuffled off the mortal coil !...a high standard indeed..

In general we think Muthuswamy Dikshitars kritis should have the same/uniform specialty like his very first one ! the MMGowla sri nAthAdi, but maybe this is not a reasonable expectation even for such a genius.....of course there is the possibility that later historians added their own contributions or made modifications etc. resulting in weaker versions ?

Along these lines, I notice the mAye kriti (the subject of much of the wrangling ongoing on this thread) is somewhat of an outlier from the dikshitar main-body..

The devi is not as formally addressed as in the other kritis, but more generically and the purpose of the kriti seems to be more to highlight the Yatis (collapsing phrases, gopuccha, srotovAha etc..)..which I do not find elsewhere in Dikshitar (maybe there are other examples)

Is it possible that pAlaya mAM parameSvarI (see post # 58 of this thread) has more authenticity (but vastly less notoriety and innovation) and mAye in 28th mela etc. is a later development..

Don't take me in the wrong spirit, but there are some gaps in your knowledge. We are all filling our own gaps one by one, but I feel you should do a bit more research on the available sources. Lyrically you are on target, but one must also look at the melody and music. The main sources of Dikshitar kritis come from Subbarama Dikshitar, the Dhannamal school and the rest from Ambi Dikshitar and his tree of disciples. While SD is quite clear, and there are no spurious kritis in the Dhanmmal school (though some songs have some alterations to raga lakshana), the kritis from other sources must be examined thoroughly both lyrically, melodically and contextually to find out which of them could reasonably be genuine.

Lists have been compiled on the kritis, and they've grown sizeably over the years. Sangeethapriya had the most exhaustive collections and I have downloaded everything on the tribute pages and then much more. What I observe is melodically there are so many kritis and versions whose tune could have never been set by MD. Many of the spurious kritis fall short on the lyrical side as well. Beyond that it becomes much more tricky and it requires a thorough understanding of the old school of ragas and the compositions of the entire Dikshitar family.

I think it was @keerthi who first mentioned that there are several suspect kritis from non SSP sources. Also a group of kritis popularized by the Maharajapuram school is also suspect.

Maybe it's the style of writing, but It gives me the feeling like you are newer to this topic than it seems.

Second, this being a ragas thread, let's continue the discussion on vakgeyakaras. After a point it is no longer about that anymore.

Also please try to address one issue per post. This is a huge topic It becomes difficult to follow when too many issues are taken up in one post. A bit of numbering or formatting could help make it easier.

[nAdopAsaka]

No problem ! I get you quite right..

With muthuswamy dikshitar lyrics ARE the anchor...

As for melody and music, that can be quite subjective !! as has been noted here ..

Can of course continue extended discussions elsewhere, if one has patience, but the authenticity of the mAye Kriti as dikshitars is pertinent to the raga thread since this Kriti defines (or confuses ?) so called tarangini/sudhatarangini etc.

It appears you may know more than it seems...Would you know of other such yati patterns in dikshitars kritis..

[SrinathK]

Maye is authentic. No doubt of this. Very original kriti in a raganga mela raga. Notated in SSP. You can go through it on guruguha.org. It's free and it's in English. After doing about 200 such kritis, your whole understanding will be changed.

Sudha tarangini doesn't exist. It came in the lyrics, that doesn't mean it's part of the raga name.

The music does matter. Go look up sri ganeshAtparam. The popular version is in a raga called veenavAdini. The original is in an old raga called ardradEshi, a janya of mAyAmALavagauLa in mishra jhampa and musically a much greater work. Ragas like that have gone out of existence because no one sang them.

And while you're at it, check for all these jhampa talas that are actually being rendered as khanda chapu. Lots of dubious tunes of MD are in chapu talas, which he never used.

[bhakthim dehi]

Would you know of other such yati patterns in dikshitars kritis..

'nagadavani sahite dvani sahite hite' is a good example. Are you not aware of this?
I can quote other common examples too.

The raga seen in the original maaye confuses only when we feel the present tune is authentic. There are few other compositions wherein you see this original Tarangini. Contrarily we don't have any evidence to support Sudha tarangini.

[nAdopAsaka]

Aahh yes, from the Sat rAgamalika....thanks...

I find another possibility in the shri dum durge kriti

[RSR]

This thread is supposed to deal with the Aaberi ragam. Why then the unnecessary deviation into 'Maaye' kruthi. Smt.NCVasanthakokilam's rendering is simply superb.
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... e/02-maaye

One need not know Sanskrit, or the philosophical significance of the lyrics of the song, who composed that song , what is the ragam , whether it is simply Tarangini or Suddha Tarangini , whether it is listed as MD kruthi, in SSP, .. All these are totally irrelevant for getting the thrill of the song as rendered by Smt.NCV. I am forced to talk about it in this thread only because some of the above posts have dragged in that . Besides Smt.NCV 's immortal rendering, there is a rendering by Madurai MaNi iyer and Smt.MS.
If one is thrilled by the NCV record, is it because it is known to be the composition of MD ? or that it is genuine creation of MD as SSP mentions it?
If great many kruthis supposed to be composed by MD and so very popular are not found in SSP, are we to discard them? Do the musicians announce that they are singing MD kruthi? if not why not just listen and enjoy?
I am told that some of the great records such as 'Sathya NaraayaNam', rangapura vihara, pancchaashat peeta roopini, of Smt,DKP, and a famous Todi song on Guruvayoor sung by Smt.MS, and another song by Smt.MS In Dwijavanthi do not find a mention in SSP. So what?

[bhakthim dehi]

who composed that song , what is the ragam , whether it is simply Tarangini or Suddha Tarangini , whether it is listed as MD kruthi, in SSP, .. All these are totally irrelevant for getting the thrill of the song as rendered by Smt.NCV

If you fee that way, why should you visit this thread?
On top of this you post a kriti in Tarangini and educating us we are deviating from the main thread.

[nAdopAsaka]

At some level I feel RSR is correct...the response, especially to our music can be free of these issues he cites...

It could also be argued that for the great vaageyakaras, their music is but a byproduct of deeper relationships with ideas and deities not governed by musicology...their fidelity to musical shastras i.e. , Shruti is inherent to the purity of their faiths..

But the carnatic system allows a gentle pursuit of some nuances for lesser mortals.

Regarding ganeshatparam, Dikshitar gives the words "um A rudra darshi tat" in charana as unambiguous Raga mudra so other versions are likely flaunting this

[bhakthim dehi]

could also be argued that for the great vaageyakaras, their music is but a byproduct of deeper relationships with ideas and deities not governed by musicology.

This shows your lack of understanding. If their wish is only to convey the philosophies, they could have very well stopped composing the slokas. Why should they even tune it? Composers like Deekshitar even took care to incorporate the raga mudra. They are much aware that we will change them to our convenience.

Henceforth don't talk this kriti is pregnamt with the raga sancara or this kriti has inherent ragabhava. People who doesn't feel the importance of music are not entitled to give any such statement.

They are much adept is sangeeta sastra and due respect will be shown only if we try to follow them.

correct...the response, especially to our music can be free of these issues he cites

...

I can expect no more posts from you on sahitya

[SrinathK]

In reality the Trinity were very knowledgeable in theoretical and practical aspects of music and language while also being inspired creators. They knew about traditions before their time as seen by the phrases available in some of their notated works. They were familiar with contemporary traditions and even other styles of music and incorporated those influences as well. None of this was done in any disruptive manner. And yes, apparently Thyagaraja had a reputation for being strict and only approving of additions like chittaswarams by disciples after he was satisfied.

If you realize what all we have lost over hundreds of years, it is a tragedy. Today the world of CM would be much richer with the old and the new.

Now the approach to enjoying a song doesn't need you to know any of this but the experience of the music itself. Actually you don't need to know anything as long as you have an ear for the music and like your favourite musician enough!!

That is fine for the vidwans and vidhushis section where you enjoy your favourite recordings. Of course I still doubt anyone could enjoy a song like sivAparAdhamu seyu radu after translating the lyrics but still, people have because they just listened to the music. Over there and in reviews you can see the fan in me emerge.

However when you are discussing raga and tala, you are getting into the nuts and bolts of the music. It has gone beyond entertainment.

Admittedly this wasn't my goal in the beginning when I started this thread. But the music has a will of its own, so eventually this could only come to this point. We have a much bigger tradition than what we realize and many new findings are happening. I consider it a duty to bring it out, even if unofficially through a forum.

Someone has to do the hardwork for this. Or else all this will be forgotten, no one will be the wiser. No point if all this remains locked up with the musicologists, and comes out in an odd lec dem attended only by certain geeks in the CM world. It has to come to public. The rest only time will tell.

Casual listeners might find this difficult, but I cannot think of another way where this info is easily accessible to the public in a way that they can get it and doesn't get lost in news feeds. On Facebook I'd be totally wasting my time putting it in some group. The rasikas forum is the perfect place for such an effort.

I have tried my best so far to cover both old and new ragas and as many versions out there as I can find. I even come up with these tall tales of ragas just to get the point across in a light hearted way, but still some people really took it more seriously.

In the past, worldspace radio had programs on ragas and artistes and all. It went bust one fine day, but the idea was great I learnt a lot from it that I could have never done had it not been presented in such an organized way. I even told G Ravikiran this when I met him.

@bhakthim dehi I don't know who you are, but you have always been a very hard hitter on the forum along with keerthi and a couple of others. But please, please go easy on us amateurs!!

[SrinathK]

Carnatic music is what it is not just because of the contribution of great musicians, but also those of the rasikas. Many many things we take for granted today came from the out of the box proactiveness of many rasikas of music.

IMHO, now is the perfect time to write about these things. This section is the best place to do it. In the past, even as recently as last decade, these resources and facilities were not available. Or if they were, the idea of bringing them into public would have been impossible without the internet boom and the visibility offered by social media. Right now rasikas.org has great visibility and still, despite losing so many seniors, many people read it regularly. Somehow the membership numbers are only going up. I assume it is being read. If the title is properly drafted, rasikas posts appear easily in google searches.

10 or 20 years later, the internet landscape may change so much that forum sites may vanish altogether along with all the veterans of rasikas.org and everyone will only be on whatsApp or Facebook or whatever next comes up. This type of structured seriousness will be gone underneath a deluge of data, but not useful information. Most of the useful stuff will again be private. We also don't know where any of us will be by then.

Forget writing on FB. On social media, it not be visible for long enough before it gets buried under endless news feeds. Blogs simply can't substitute for a forum as it is a solo effort, although they may still be the place to go to at least read something interesting.

So yes, I think this is the time and place. And I've got some time to write, so why not?

[nAdopAsaka]

I guess opinions are like orifices..everybody has at least one or a few...! that includes me..

Sorry to intrude on any posters echo chamber here...

For dikshitars unique cult of Devi or srividya, this faith found a musical expression..same for syAma sAstri...tyagaraja , purandaradasa, etc.also similar driving forces...the faith precedes the expression..

Put another way, an accomplished musicologist, like say venkitamakhi cannot generate what muthuswamy has done...and that goes for all other amateurs, past or present..



Raga mudra placement is somewhat artificial and a secondary consideration although dikshitar does his best to soften the intrusions....perhaps more of a teaching aid used by dikshitar... The other greats do not use this feature typically..

If I have more to say on sAhitya you are going to have to grin and bear it or just ignore it....I know I do the same for several posts and posters..

I am unconvinced that mAye is not an outlier.....is there a ksetra associated with this Kriti ?

[SrinathK]

You have to prove it then. But first I'd advise you to explore a lot more of what is out there before coming to a conclusion. Opinions are easy, facts are hard. Unearthing facts is harder. You write very well, but right now, I observe way too many of your statements are pure conjecture. You must spend some more time plugging those gaps in your knowledge areas, then your writing will go to the next level.

Just curious, could you please introduce yourself in general discussions.

[bhakthim dehi]

an accomplished musicologist, like say venkitamakhi cannot generate what muthuswamy has done.

Have you seen or heard a composition of Venkatamakhi? He was a much revered musician. Not a musicologist alone.

When you do a comparison, you must compare similar works. He has not composed kritis and Deekshitar has not composed gita prabandas to our knowledge. The works of Venkatamakhi served as an inspiration for every other later composer.

Even to compare, we need to have some abilities, sukritam and their kataksham.

Just because you have a preference over Deekshitar, you cannot deride the musical potential of others. I have seen you doing this for Tyagarajar also.
I do agree individual opinions differ and everyone is free to exhibit their views. But that should be expressed as your personal opinion.

Raga mudra placement is somewhat artificial and a secondary consideration although dikshitar does his best to soften the intrusions....perhaps more of a teaching aid used by dikshitar...

They are not artificial. They are indeed intentional. Definitely they wont judge their greatness. This is applicable to reference about a kshetra.
I quoted only to denote his intention.

[shankarank]

Barring the laya in the compositions, a lot of it is unlistenable on the face of it. Both "T" and "D"

This is entirely a matter of subjective opinion and is no different from people who find CM or some other kind of music to be weird on their ears.
I have no idea if anyone else on rasikas or out there shares your views, but if what you say is representative of what the broader music community themselves really feel in private, then I admit I am very surprised. I hope not.

In the annals of opinions, there are only few who speak out and others hold back - just like there is only the 3 of them the trinity - Ok off with delusions of grandeur. I said that to bring out the fact that, how a commonly seen appreciation of CM even up until end of 20th century is grounded on the rakti rAgAs like aTANA, Anandabhairavi and kEdAragAULa - which speak of a long range continuity beyond the vibes like CM is 100 years old, or started with trinity or at the most 400 years going back to Purandaradasa. The former shows a remarkable continuity. You can take my statement as a ninda stuti on "T" and "D".

It is not about what I like personally - I did like this : https://youtu.be/PCkqgErorz8?t=45. I tried to put myself in the shoes of people who adopted this change. Happen to hum this and out came more information. Somebody 70 plus year old in my home started singing it in the normally heard one. Now searching out 80 year olds in West Tirunelveli belt , as already I hear names like RAmalinga BhAgavatar in the line of VEdAnta BhAgavatar. So they have all been taught the new way. Somewhere close to where SSP was laid out, this has already changed - may be due to popular pressure!

KM's interview is revealing: http://guruguha.org/blog/2013/12/25/kal ... hagavatar/. per information from an UKS speech, he is supposed to have taught Smt. Vedavalli and T Balasarasvati.

From Abheri old vs new this thread abstracted to a higher level, Sudha vs catuSruti daivata or ebullient consonance vs. contemplative poignance!