violin Gauge strings

[ganesh_mourthy]

Hello Dear Rasikas violinists.

Does anyone know how to get gauge strings for violin online from the shops in Chennai ? Not all the shops sell gauge strings as far as I know. I am stuck in my native due to some health situations and cannot move for the next 2 months until I recuperate. All that available online are a generic set made for Western music including that of Karunas. I would greatly appreciate your help .

wishes
Ganesh mourthy

[RSR]

Playing violin when you are not well, may be a strain. Perhaps you can listen to good casettes.
SrinathK may heĺp. Get well soon.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Thank you for your concern @RSR.

It is going to be a light one and not a rigorous. It works good for me to be doing something which is not physically demanding . It is a ligament tear and I can sit in the chair and practice. Long time I got in touch with SrinathK in this forum. Hope he sees this post.

[RSR]

@SrinathK
Please help GM with info

[SrinathK]

Dear gm, sorry I noticed this only now after RSR pointed me to it.

I am not able to find custom gauge strings online. You do get the Karuna and other brands but they are standard gauges or at the most some brands allow you to choose the tension level.

Did you try calling sapthaswara and asking them if they can speed post or courier your gauge strings?

If the custom gauges you want aren't available, buy any steel core string which has sufficient tension even well below it's natural pitch and can handle pitch changes up and down. But do not buy a synthetic string or an imported brand now - those strings will only sound good at their recommended tension and are pretty useless below that. And they are frighteningly expensive too. The Pirastro Piranito was the only imported brand I know which can still sound neat at lower pitches.

[RSR]

Sound of music
1965
JULIE ANDREWS
https://youtu.be/RWSKXWB7_9Y
.
A delightful scene
https://youtu.be/30BieCz5NKc

[ganesh_mourthy]

Thank you @srinathK

It is a shame that I never cared to know about the strings as I was reliant on my Guru for it . I always had a a few reserved in stock and never bothered to know the tecnicalities of it . I am a bit ok now. Will try to make a visit to sapthaswaras myself. Thanks your time and thanks for sharing the wisdom

[SrinathK]

If you visit sapthaswara do check out their gauge chart for Karuna steel strings for various Shrutis. I saw it 2 days ago when I went to buy a set but forgot to take a photo of it. They are a bit more flexible than that up and down the pitch range though.

Lower gauge is a thicker string, for a lower pitch. The higher the gauge, the thinner the string. So Karuna is the only brand that has sizes for every pitch range that's also easy on the pocket.

I can't say the same for the foreign brands. They're frighteningly costly, and while some of them come designed for various tension weights (low, medium or high), each brand has different construction and recommended tension. All of them are designed for the standard EADG concert pitch. And those strings will simply not make any proper sound except in and around that recommended tension and pitch. Once you tune them up and stretch them, they can only be played in that pitch or higher. There is no possibility of tuning them down and getting any sound out of them. Many of them won't work well for Indian pitches, which are usually much lower for solos and viola pitch for male singers. They may be useful for accompanying the ladies since that is where they will be at their proper tension.

[SrinathK]

Let me just extend the discussion further.

For those who really want and can afford the best strings out there, please know your brands and the string length, tensions and gauge / diameters of each string. Here's a calculator that can help you find the right size string.

http://www.gamutstrings.com/calculators/calculator.htm

Combine it with the resources on this site :
https://www.violinstringreview.com/guides.html

You can the details of every major foreign brand here. And maybe you could find a string that has enough tension and the right size for a particular pitch that we Indian violinists use, give and take +/-1 tone. I mean, a low tension D string could work for a D#. A steel E could work in a wide range of pitches as it is. A thinner viola C string could also be used on the violin. Etc etc.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Thank you SrinathK , very resourseful.

Very rarely am I happy with the strings and some blame it is to do with playing style. But , then again why do we have so many varieties is my polite rhetorical question to them.

Well , then ... I am going to dive deeper now. Can always afford for a worthy something.

Best
GM

[SrinathK]

@ganesh_mourthy I am unable to post images up here directly, and there's no way to create a table either, so I'm typing out the gauge chart for Karuna Strings from Sapthaswara, which should be useful for student violinists and even some concert violinists. So the key is as below

Pitch Range - E string A string D string G string
Lower A# to C - 29 23 21 19
C# to D - 30 24 22 20
D# to F - 31 27 24 22
F# to G# - 32 28 25 22
A and above - 33/34 29 26 23

Higher gauge means a thinner string. The lowest gauge for the male voices are almost proper viola strings.

Depending on the instrument and the violinist, this may vary by +/- 1 gauge point for +/- 1 sruthi key. Eg I used a 29 gauge A string for playing in G#. So there is some flexibility with these gauges and pitches.

The standard Karuna string is the middle row. It suitable for D# to F, but on my violins I really need to tune it to at least E before there's enough tension in the string that they will not squeal or choke or go out of tune. The regular E string was good enough till G# on one of my violins, but the others simply couldn't be tuned that high.

[SrinathK]

Some very important pieces of advice.

As you may have seen from the gauge chart, you can't use the same strings for all pitches.

Ideally a violinist must have 3 violins - one tuned for male voices, one for solos, and one for female voices. Those practicing Western music must use a separate 4th violin tuned only for E A D G. Do not keep returning the same violin every other day over an extremely wide pitch range between CM and Western or between male, female or solos.

Also do not use the same strings for male and female pitches or between western and Carnatic. You can't retune that much without a string or two breaking explosively and probably damaging your violin too.

Apart from the annoyance of returning the violin and taking apart and putting on new strings, frequently changing a violin's pitch shortens the string life and can cause issues with the bridge , the soundpost and the neck. Steel strings need a few days to stretch into their playing pitch before they become pliable and reach their proper best sound.

So changing tension like this up and down frequently will ruin the strings and shorten their useful life. Not recommended if you are using very costly strings.

Once a violin string stretches and relieves excess tension to a higher pitch, tuning it back down to a much lower pitch will make it too slack - and a slack string loses all tone and power and even pitch stability. Imported brands are notorious for this.

For high pitches or high tensions, first tune the string to a pitch below the actual pitch, let it stretch, then tune up 1/2 step, let it stretch, and then tune up till the concert pitch is reached. Or else the string might snap. All international grade violinists stretch their strings on a relatively lower end violin before putting it on their concert instrument. Use non concert days for putting on new strings and letting them stretch.

If I had to get deeper into the setup, every violin and player is different. The bridge and nut and string height above the board would ideally be different for each pitch range, every type of string and violin and player so I don't recommend to use the same violin for men one day and women on another. One violin for one pitch range. Once a violin is properly set up in a way optimised for one pitch range and set of strings, it should not be disturbed again and again or tuned to a less than optimal setup.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Thanks @srinathK

That is enormous information.

I allowed myself to be spoilt and my teacher used to take care of the string changing business. The reason being that he always had a few new strings. It is a shame , I did not know that the strings have expiry dates and this time he actually ran out of it.

This is where I ended up mix- match and trying to start playing a tanam in excitement and there snapped the string with a bang. I am not going to adventure anymore with my violin. Now that I have some information I am going to check with sapthaswara if they can courier it if I prepaid them. Wish me luck with the next step. We are still backward with music and stuffs. Not like swiggy pizza and momo choice to pick and choose.

GM

[SrinathK]

And for changing the strings themselves, change only one at a time. Check your bridge and if needed, put some pencil lead from a blunt pencil in the grooves of the bridge and the nut.

Here's a renowned Australian luthier showing how it's done.

https://youtu.be/JKO28qzllGo

Strings break all the time. Once it happened that before the final rehearsal for my school annual day programme, my E string (tuned for G#) broke and that was my spare string. So someone handed me an extremely long E string and it was huge, over 2x longer than a violin string. It turned out to be our ensemble guitarist who had a spare E for his electric guitar and decided to help me out!!!

The best part? It worked!! Not ideal, needed huge amounts of peg winding, but it worked and sounded good too. I played the programme with it!

These days I always have 2 spare sets for each violin.

[Nick H]

I have seen strings break in concerts on quite a few occasions. It amazes me how the violinist can fit a new string, tune up, and carry on playing, all within a minute or two!

Just one of the many astonishing skills of musicians

[ganesh_mourthy]

@nick H .. no nick, it is no big deal if we have the right spare. We have to quickly tune it to 95 percent accuracy hurriedly ( because you are a show stopper now and the whole hall is witnessing the fiasco) and then ensure it to 100 nonchalantly ( at least to our 100) when we get another pause.

@Srinath K
Where do you buy it normally? in Chennai? never online?

GM

[SrinathK]

I did get Karuna strings online from Amazon a few times. These days I get it in Sapthaswara whenever I am in Chennai. Right now I only have the standard set of strings with me.

[RSR]

Excuse me for the intrusion. How is the violin-piano music in this rare classic
Intermizzo? 1939. Ingrid Bergman
https://youtu.be/4cwbs3TKS7k

[SrinathK]

I have seen strings break in concerts on quite a few occasions. It amazes me how the violinist can fit a new string, tune up, and carry on playing, all within a minute or two!

Just one of the many astonishing skills of musicians

Most violinists have a spare set of strings which have already been stretched on another violin ready just in case, or they might just have a second violin ready.

Putting a new string on the violin straight from the packet can be done, but it is quite unlikely that the string will sound or play very well until it stretches properly. To fully stretch a string takes a day or two for steel strings. Most violinists can still manage despite that. Steel strings usually begin to settle in fairly quickly under intense playing, and that much is sufficient to manage the concert. Not ideal but good enough.

Other strings can be very different. I tried Thomastik's dominants once. They need a few days to stretch, only play well near the correct tension. Below that they're hopeless. After that they sound very well, but their peak is short lived. Only a few performances later, it's a steady decline.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Hi Srinath

I looked at your recommendation of this for C# to D
C# to D - 30 24 22 20

Have you tried that with Karuna?

As far as Karuna I think this works for D
30 - 27 - 25- 21 when I try to check on my other violin in which the strings are slightly discolored.

That jump of 24 to 30 to steel beats me a bit. Or, probably it works differently with different makes.

By the way, I called Saptaswara and they are ready to help me with the courier.

G_M

[SrinathK]

For your first question, I have played down to C. For C I remember using a 29 gauge on the E string instead of the 30. The 20 gauge lower S string was quite thick for a string - the thickest string I ever played on. I might have needed a viola bow for that! I can't imagine going down further to a 19 gauge as per the chart. I should have used the 21 or even 22 gauge for the lower S least for that bridge.

That's why I said before, if you go that low you will need a different bridge and nut setup because the gauge of the strings will be completely different (hence I said we need separate violins).

And for your second question, for playing in D, yeah, a 24 gauge string for the A string seems surprisingly thick. I was also surprised looking at Sapthaswara's chart. Try a 25 or 26. 27 is a bit too loose for D and doesn't have enough tension. It works better when you play at E or even F. So try 25-26.

If you look at the pitch range of F#-G# and even A or above, when compared to D or D# the pitch the A string simply moves over to become the D string instead and if you read the table that's the D string gauge they recommend there.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Does Sapthaswara have a recommended Chart online? I used to play with a Coronet string before and then moved on to Karuna

GM

[SrinathK]

That IS the one I shared up there.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Oh ok.

But , fitting the right and satisfactory string is a complex process, especially as our ear become sensitive to musical sounds.

[SrinathK]

And it can be a very expensive process if you want to try those imported brands...

[shankarank]

With moonshots now inexpensive , this should be a breeze! By the way Congrats to ISRO team!

[ganesh_mourthy]

With battery cars, road trips are NOT SO expensive. I sent my driver to pick up the strings from Sapthaswara.

Ganesh Mourthy

[ganesh_mourthy]

The thick 21 string was getting problematic as it wouldn't go inside the fine-tuner and this video really helped.

[shankarank]

With battery cars, road trips are NOT SO expensive

Oh! So , you really considered mining special metals from Lunar deposits, to String your bow? It may be worth it. You will get cool sheetal music just like the moon shine!

[SrinathK]

Yes, the running cost of an electric car is 7x lower per km than a petrol car. Plus there are definite advantages in traffic. All is not perfect though. Charging infra an actual charge and mileage issues persist.

And honestly I don't see the emissions point when almost all the electricity comes from coal. The manufacturing energy requirements are much higher too. Only good thing is it reduces our oil import bill and gives the struggling thermal sector some demand.

Ok, back to strings, now don't drift off topic as usual.

@ganesh_mourthy So what strings did you get and for what Shruti?

[ganesh_mourthy]

Hi there SrinathK

I bought the 30 for E , 27 for A , 25 for D and 21 for G ( all in Karuna )

and this fits well for 2 kattai . This is what I used to have for a long time. I double-checked with Shri . R . Rahul , disciple of M.C mama and he asserted the same.


Ganesh Mourthy

[SrinathK]

Yeah I concur. That's a lot closer to Sapthaswara's D# numbers on their chart than the C-D numbers. I guess they kind of just took the strings for C and tuned them up. That can actually put too much tension on some violins.

It depends from violin to violin, but on mine 27 for the A string was a bit loose for that pitch. I prefer a 26 or even a 25 gauge A string for playing in D. But since I usually play in E, a 27 works fine on my violins. Since you have used 27 gauge before it should be fine for yours.

Also you might have seen a small piece of cylindrical plastic near the ball of the string that comes with it. That is a string saver. It's meant to be put on the bridge in the groove so that the steel strings don't chew through the wood in the long run. I found out this only recently.

Some pencil lead in the bridge, the nut and also the fine tuners will keep them well lubricated.

One more question, for my curiosity, at the upper end of the fingerboard, can you use a scale and find out how high the center of each string is located above the top of the board, in mm?

[SrinathK]

I just decided to put plenty of graphite in the fine tuners, the bridge grooves and the nut grooves with a 2B pencil.

The improvement in sound and response is actually astonishing. The violin resonates everywhere. Now the strings are no longer so tight either, it's quite pliable.