Structuring a Korvai in the thani

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 Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
@mridhangam
https://youtu.be/mzanBWsf6ko?t=1081
That kORvai in its current form: 24 + 25 + 15 = 64.
The 25 has two sections of khaNDam with kaRvais  5*3 + 5*2 = 25.
I made another one for a total of 128.
where the first 24 remains.
The next one : 5*6 + 5*4 + 5*3 + 5*2 = 30+20+15+10 = 75. which leave 29.  i.e 24 + 75 + 29
29 can be handled 2 ways as is : 27+2 > 9(1)9(1)9 OR 21+8 > 7(4)7(4)7 .
But just by the feel of it , I could add 1 to 29 to do a 30. Where would that 1 come from?
Well the last 5*2 , borrow 1 from it  ta,di,gi,na,tom,  the last comma goes > ta,di,gi,na,tom ( the kArvai removed) and immediately begin takiTathom, tadiginatom (10) > 3 times to get 3*10 = 30.
The much loved tadiginatom wins!
Well that is not the only deviation. A visiting vidvan with whom I happened to discuss it pointed out, that in the middle piece I left out a 5*5  that will make it a 100 and I have to do something with one extra Avarta added for a remaining 4+64 = 68.
Or I will have to not do the 5*3  just to make the reduction perfectly arithmetic 6>4>2  so it is 60. I need to fill the remaining 44.
Now I will make a case for justifying this  you may still call it lakshya or altogether invalid.
5 *6, 5*4 an arithmetic reduction. 5*3, 5*2 is the geometric reduction of the first pair ( i.e. (6,4) > (3,2) ). So it is a hybrid (arithmetogeometric) reduction .
https://youtu.be/mzanBWsf6ko?t=1081
That kORvai in its current form: 24 + 25 + 15 = 64.
The 25 has two sections of khaNDam with kaRvais  5*3 + 5*2 = 25.
I made another one for a total of 128.
where the first 24 remains.
The next one : 5*6 + 5*4 + 5*3 + 5*2 = 30+20+15+10 = 75. which leave 29.  i.e 24 + 75 + 29
29 can be handled 2 ways as is : 27+2 > 9(1)9(1)9 OR 21+8 > 7(4)7(4)7 .
But just by the feel of it , I could add 1 to 29 to do a 30. Where would that 1 come from?
Well the last 5*2 , borrow 1 from it  ta,di,gi,na,tom,  the last comma goes > ta,di,gi,na,tom ( the kArvai removed) and immediately begin takiTathom, tadiginatom (10) > 3 times to get 3*10 = 30.
The much loved tadiginatom wins!
Well that is not the only deviation. A visiting vidvan with whom I happened to discuss it pointed out, that in the middle piece I left out a 5*5  that will make it a 100 and I have to do something with one extra Avarta added for a remaining 4+64 = 68.
Or I will have to not do the 5*3  just to make the reduction perfectly arithmetic 6>4>2  so it is 60. I need to fill the remaining 44.
Now I will make a case for justifying this  you may still call it lakshya or altogether invalid.
5 *6, 5*4 an arithmetic reduction. 5*3, 5*2 is the geometric reduction of the first pair ( i.e. (6,4) > (3,2) ). So it is a hybrid (arithmetogeometric) reduction .

 Posts: 78
 Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Thanks a lot for the ideas , Shankarank !shankarank wrote: ↑01 Dec 2018, 10:32 @Christian Kenit Ram If you are not fixated on maintaining the same kAlam and mixup some higher kAla syllables:
 ta dim     ta ka dim     ta  ki ta dim  
   tAkiTA(2)  thom  tatA  kiTA(1) thom  ta thi tAkiTA(2) thom 
3(1) 4(1)5 = 14
 ta dim    ta ka dim    ta ki ta  dim   ta 
tAkiTA(2) thom   ta thi tAkiTA(2)  thom  ta di   tAkiTA(2) thom
4(1)5(1)6 = 17
 ta dim  ta  ka dim  ta  ki ta dim   ta di tAkiTA(2) 
 thom  ta di   tAkiTA(2) thom  ta  di   tAkiTA(2) thom
5(1)6(1)7 = 20
Will have a punch as well!
The frame is very clear , however I have a doubt about whether you are staying in Chatushra Gati the whole time or also get into Tishra Gati for some phrases .
Ex :    tAkiTA(2)   could be played with kiTa in doublematra speed ( 32nd notes ) or Takita as a triplet ( in Tishra Gati  3 syllables of equal duration )  3 matras instead of 2 .
I assume " ta thi tAkiTA(2) thom  " is the normal variation for Tadiginatom , where kiTA stays in Chatushra Gati , while being played as 32nd notes .

 Posts: 4015
 Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
I used captilization in tA  meaning an elongated syllable which occupies 1 unit and kiTA occupies the other 1 unit where the 2 units is in your caturASra gati only.

 Posts: 78
 Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
^
Ok thanks !
I understand your nomenclature now .
Ok thanks !
I understand your nomenclature now .

 Posts: 78
 Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Balaji Sir , while listening again to Part 3 of your lecture demonstration I heard this Korvai ( 28m22 ) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLGWJBGgiPk
ta  dim  tadim 
takadim  tadim 
ta  dim  tadim 
ta  dim  tadinginatom
ta  di 
ta  dim  tadinginatom
ta  di 
ta  dim  tadinginatom
Purvanga : 21 ( 7 x 3 )
Uttaranga : 43 ( 9 + 8 , 9 + 8 , 9 )
Coincidentally , I have been looking for some days to do the inverse : A Korvai with the uttaranga having 21 matras , but I could not manage it as easy as with other numbers . Maybe it has to do with the fact that 43 ( for the purvanga ) being a prime number , makes it difficult to split this number in the usual 3 palas with the kArvais in between .
So your technique of splitting 43 in 3x9 + 2x8 for the uttaranga in your Korvai gave me the idea for using it in my own " Korvai " ( ? or Composition or Abhiprayam ...) for the purvanga :
ta  tum  takitadim 
dintakadin takadina
ta  tum  takitadim 
dintakadin takadina
ta  tum  takitadim 
ta  din  ginatom
ta  din  ginatom
ta  din  ginatom
Uttaranga : 43 ( 9 + 8 , 9 + 8 , 9 )
Purvanga : 21 ( 7 x 3 )
I don´t know if it passes as a correct Korvai due to the fact that the uttaranga has the structure ABABA .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLGWJBGgiPk
ta  dim  tadim 
takadim  tadim 
ta  dim  tadim 
ta  dim  tadinginatom
ta  di 
ta  dim  tadinginatom
ta  di 
ta  dim  tadinginatom
Purvanga : 21 ( 7 x 3 )
Uttaranga : 43 ( 9 + 8 , 9 + 8 , 9 )
Coincidentally , I have been looking for some days to do the inverse : A Korvai with the uttaranga having 21 matras , but I could not manage it as easy as with other numbers . Maybe it has to do with the fact that 43 ( for the purvanga ) being a prime number , makes it difficult to split this number in the usual 3 palas with the kArvais in between .
So your technique of splitting 43 in 3x9 + 2x8 for the uttaranga in your Korvai gave me the idea for using it in my own " Korvai " ( ? or Composition or Abhiprayam ...) for the purvanga :
ta  tum  takitadim 
dintakadin takadina
ta  tum  takitadim 
dintakadin takadina
ta  tum  takitadim 
ta  din  ginatom
ta  din  ginatom
ta  din  ginatom
Uttaranga : 43 ( 9 + 8 , 9 + 8 , 9 )
Purvanga : 21 ( 7 x 3 )
I don´t know if it passes as a correct Korvai due to the fact that the uttaranga has the structure ABABA .

 Posts: 78
 Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Sorry , can not edit anymore .Christian Kenit Ram wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 08:56
...
ta  din  ginatom
ta  din  ginatom
ta  din  ginatom
Uttaranga : 43 ( 9 + 8 , 9 + 8 , 9 )
Purvanga : 21 ( 7 x 3 )
I don´t know if it passes as a correct Korvai due to the fact that the uttaranga has the structure ABABA .
Correction :
Purvanga : 43 ( 9 + 8 , 9 + 8 , 9 )
Uttaranga : 21 ( 7 x 3 )
I don´t know if it passes as a correct Korvai due to the fact that the purvanga has the structure ABABA .

 Posts: 4015
 Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
I figured , the last 10 of 75, if I am to make it a 9 instead of 10, to get a 30 remainder, I might as well combine the 10 with 29 and do something continuous from there on:shankarank wrote: ↑03 Dec 2018, 12:00 The next one : 5*6 + 5*4 + 5*3 + 5*2 = 30+20+15+10 = 75. which leave 29.  i.e 24 + 75 + 29
...................
Well the last 5*2 , borrow 1 from it  ta,di,gi,na,tom,  the last comma goes > ta,di,gi,na,tom ( the kArvai removed) ....
ta,di,gi,na,tomthanguthangu ta,di,gi,na,tomthanguthangu ta,di,gi,na,tom 
9(6)9(6)9 = 39 = 10+29
Alternately :
ta,di,gi,na,tom[ta,di,gi,na,tom] ta,di,gi,na,tom[ta,di,gi,na,tom]ta,di,gi,na,tom 
where [ta,di,gi,na,tom] in square brackets is executed in mEl (higher) kAla triSram 6*(3/2) = 9
That is deceptively aesthetic and grammatically correct, instead of aesthetically deceptive and grammatically incorrect!
allowed?

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 Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
https://youtu.be/uU9YAALt828?t=6537
Above is a nice one in miSra cApu by SrI Arun Prakash. Wait until the naDai and mohra finish.
tadhiginatom is handled with tadhi being given 7 each , 6 each ... down to 2each
7+6+5+4+3+2 = 27 * 2 = 54.
A kurraippu that results in that is multiple of 3 would be this.
To get a common multiple of 14 and 3  samam to samam for even Avartas would be 6*14 = 84 beyond 54 and that gives a remainder of 30.
30 has to be divided into 6 integral additive parts each divisible 3 to be given to ginatom equally.
That is achieved as : 9+6+6+3+3+3
So it is: 7,7,9  6,6,6  5,5,6  4,4,3  3,3,3  2,2,3 to complete 84 aksharas.
As the time allocated to tadhi comes down from 7, ginatom also gets less and less to give a feel of proportionality.
Above is a nice one in miSra cApu by SrI Arun Prakash. Wait until the naDai and mohra finish.
tadhiginatom is handled with tadhi being given 7 each , 6 each ... down to 2each
7+6+5+4+3+2 = 27 * 2 = 54.
A kurraippu that results in that is multiple of 3 would be this.
To get a common multiple of 14 and 3  samam to samam for even Avartas would be 6*14 = 84 beyond 54 and that gives a remainder of 30.
30 has to be divided into 6 integral additive parts each divisible 3 to be given to ginatom equally.
That is achieved as : 9+6+6+3+3+3
So it is: 7,7,9  6,6,6  5,5,6  4,4,3  3,3,3  2,2,3 to complete 84 aksharas.
As the time allocated to tadhi comes down from 7, ginatom also gets less and less to give a feel of proportionality.

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 Joined: 21 Mar 2020, 18:49
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
https://youtu.be/nbDkV3vH_14
This is a korvai of Tanjore Sri Upendran sir, which was originally played in chatusram. But here, it is rendered in tisram which looks challenging.
This is a korvai of Tanjore Sri Upendran sir, which was originally played in chatusram. But here, it is rendered in tisram which looks challenging.

 Posts: 976
 Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Generally these types of korvais dont pass. Normally purvanga is split equally.Christian Kenit Ram wrote: ↑05 Dec 2018, 23:43Sorry , can not edit anymore .Christian Kenit Ram wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 08:56
...
ta  din  ginatom
ta  din  ginatom
ta  din  ginatom
Uttaranga : 43 ( 9 + 8 , 9 + 8 , 9 )
Purvanga : 21 ( 7 x 3 )
I don´t know if it passes as a correct Korvai due to the fact that the uttaranga has the structure ABABA .
Correction :
Purvanga : 43 ( 9 + 8 , 9 + 8 , 9 )
Uttaranga : 21 ( 7 x 3 )
I don´t know if it passes as a correct Korvai due to the fact that the purvanga has the structure ABABA .
But these days i hear korvais having a following structure too accepted and follwed/played by many.
D.tnkt tktr kttk tm . T. Tm .
Kttk d. Tnkt tktr kttk tm. T. Tm .
Trtrkttk d. Tnkt tktr kttk tm. T. Tm ..
Tdgntmtdgntm tdgntm//
If you observe the korvai split it goes thus:
842
2842
484 (3)
555//
According to me this doesnt follow logical purvanga.
Many play this korvai and also justify that the ending kaarvai is a standalone which somehow i am not able to accept.
Mannarkoil J Balaji.

 Posts: 78
 Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
^
Thanks a lot for your reply , Sir !
Thanks a lot for your reply , Sir !

 Posts: 4015
 Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Here is a single Avarta kOrvai , I made up based on caturaSra triSram type syllable formation, but it doesn't quite get into that naDai. Just the first phrase( pUrvAnga) is made using that.
Warning: It has negative adjustments of kArvai at the end of the first phrase.
2  kaLai  one Avarta:
The adjustment is that I robbed the two mAtra kArvai to just make it "di" for the second din in the last repetition of the pUrvangA phrases.
Now I made a slight variation to the above to hide the adjustment, but still that now it looks instead it has a positive adjustment, but the pUrvanga ending now merges with uttarAnga. So hard to tell.
Now is the second considered regular or still adjustment?
It is somewhat like this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_(M._C._Escher)
pUrvangam looks like it has been completed, but uttarAngam already began at the last tAm of pUrvAnagam and looks right!
Warning: It has negative adjustments of kArvai at the end of the first phrase.
2  kaLai  one Avarta:
Code: Select all
 ta,,din ,,din, ,tata, ,din,, din,,ta kata,, din,,di tam,,,  ,,,ta digiNatom tam,,, ,,,ta digiNatom tam,,, ,,,ta digiNatom  ta,,din ,,....
Now I made a slight variation to the above to hide the adjustment, but still that now it looks instead it has a positive adjustment, but the pUrvanga ending now merges with uttarAnga. So hard to tell.
Code: Select all
 ta,,din ,,ditam ,tata, ,din,, ditam,ta kata,, din,,di tam,,,  ,,,ta digiNatom tam,,, ,,,ta digiNatom tam,,, ,,,ta digiNatom  ta,,din ,,....
Now is the second considered regular or still adjustment?
It is somewhat like this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_(M._C._Escher)
pUrvangam looks like it has been completed, but uttarAngam already began at the last tAm of pUrvAnagam and looks right!

 Posts: 4015
 Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Above seems to be nothing unusual when I heard some kORvais where damaruka yati type formation is used. A phrase reduces to lowest pattern and the second part takes off from the last reduced pattern to build up again. The middle part bridges both.

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 Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
As a tribute to SrI Murthy Mama on his kanakabhishekam year:
https://youtu.be/KmhTeKWXdg?t=5082
In the above concert he takes the kOrvai explained by Sri Balaji (https://youtu.be/mzanBWsf6ko?t=1081) , starts with using 5 as the factor as explained, executes it , then in next round advances by 2 beats ( or one 2 kALAI beat) starts from vIccu (wave) , makes it 6 based. 3 extra with 6*3, 2 extra for 6*2 and 3 extra for last 6*3 fast flourishing finish. Continues to do 7 , 9 and also 10 I suppose.
Just a patterned lesson ( as mentioned by one of his disciples) becomes full wholesome performance.
https://youtu.be/KmhTeKWXdg?t=5082
In the above concert he takes the kOrvai explained by Sri Balaji (https://youtu.be/mzanBWsf6ko?t=1081) , starts with using 5 as the factor as explained, executes it , then in next round advances by 2 beats ( or one 2 kALAI beat) starts from vIccu (wave) , makes it 6 based. 3 extra with 6*3, 2 extra for 6*2 and 3 extra for last 6*3 fast flourishing finish. Continues to do 7 , 9 and also 10 I suppose.
Just a patterned lesson ( as mentioned by one of his disciples) becomes full wholesome performance.

 Posts: 4015
 Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Correction: In the above there is no 10. The last one is from half samam  8 + 16  24 aksharas. So after the pURvAnga which goes for 6 aksharas ( 24 mAtras) , the remaining is 18  which is executed with 9 as the factor.
18 * 4 = 72 mAtras = (9*3) + (9*2) + (3*9)
18 * 4 = 72 mAtras = (9*3) + (9*2) + (3*9)

 Posts: 4015
 Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Now more on this pUrvAngam and what can be done without any adjustments:
 ta,,din ,,din, ,tata, ,din,, din,,ta kata,, din,,din ,,, 
Above in 2kaLai is 27+3 = 30 , leaving a reminder of 34.
34 is of course easy to handle in many ways 5, 5(2) 5, 5 (2) 5,5 using takitathom, tadiginathom tam, formation. Next in the same line one can do 8,5,8,5,8 tadi,taditAkitathom dintAngu and so on.
But I was thinking of ways to see , just like the pUrvangam which has prefixes that progress arithmetically , if anything like that is possible here to add to go beyond this formulaic approach of finding nearest multiples of 3 with even reminders.
Even reminders allow you to add intervals , which is only possible twice as they are in between the thrice repeating same pattern. And hence sum of the intervals spaces have to be an even total.
On possibility arose with 27 + 7  with 7 reminder, an odd number. If I did prefixes starting with 1 , then can I do 1, 2, 4 as prefixes in the uttarAngam? 1, 2, 4 form a geometric progression for which you cannot start with 0. pUrvangam starts with nothing and adds a 'ta', and 'taka' as prefixes to the same repeating pattern. As prefixes they do sound out as separate entities and hence can be considered separately from the thrice repeating pattern itself. Otherwise people can project that the total ( prefix + pattern ) progresses arithmetically.
The latter question is important , since if we treat prefixes as their own separate entities, can they then have their own progression which could be geometric?
Common progression in prefixes heard are nothing (0) , ta, taka OR nothing (0) , taka, takathiku  things like that.
Now if geometric progression is allowed on prefix alone , like ta, taka, takathiku then we have many nice possibilities , especially when combined with intervals who sum is even.
So you can have just a 7 reminder handled. Or 7+4 where 4 is handled as 2 & 2 as intervals. 7 + 6 and so on. So multiples of 3 that leave many odd valued reminders have a new leash of life!
Is this something new or already in practice? Would like to know.
So in this case for the reminder of 34 mAtras , we can have 27 + 7 where it is 1,9, 2, 9 , 4 9 with 1, 2, 4 as prefixes.
If we also add interval into the mix we will have :
1 , 7 , 3 , 2, 7, 3 , 4, 7 where 7 is thrice repeating pattern , 3 is the two interval spaces and 1, 2, 4 form the prefixes, executed with their own emphatic sollus.
For 3 rounds we can add using a 6 and a 5 pattern:
For 6 : 1, 6, 3, 2 , 6, 33 , 4, 6  where now the interval itself has it's own arithmetic progression 3, and then 3,3. Possible? Aesthetic?
For 5 : 1, 5, 33 , 2, 5, 33, 4, 5
So the patterns with 5, 6, 7 can be done in each of the 3 rounds of the kOrvai.
Welcome comments from experts!
 ta,,din ,,din, ,tata, ,din,, din,,ta kata,, din,,din ,,, 
Above in 2kaLai is 27+3 = 30 , leaving a reminder of 34.
34 is of course easy to handle in many ways 5, 5(2) 5, 5 (2) 5,5 using takitathom, tadiginathom tam, formation. Next in the same line one can do 8,5,8,5,8 tadi,taditAkitathom dintAngu and so on.
But I was thinking of ways to see , just like the pUrvangam which has prefixes that progress arithmetically , if anything like that is possible here to add to go beyond this formulaic approach of finding nearest multiples of 3 with even reminders.
Even reminders allow you to add intervals , which is only possible twice as they are in between the thrice repeating same pattern. And hence sum of the intervals spaces have to be an even total.
On possibility arose with 27 + 7  with 7 reminder, an odd number. If I did prefixes starting with 1 , then can I do 1, 2, 4 as prefixes in the uttarAngam? 1, 2, 4 form a geometric progression for which you cannot start with 0. pUrvangam starts with nothing and adds a 'ta', and 'taka' as prefixes to the same repeating pattern. As prefixes they do sound out as separate entities and hence can be considered separately from the thrice repeating pattern itself. Otherwise people can project that the total ( prefix + pattern ) progresses arithmetically.
The latter question is important , since if we treat prefixes as their own separate entities, can they then have their own progression which could be geometric?
Common progression in prefixes heard are nothing (0) , ta, taka OR nothing (0) , taka, takathiku  things like that.
Now if geometric progression is allowed on prefix alone , like ta, taka, takathiku then we have many nice possibilities , especially when combined with intervals who sum is even.
So you can have just a 7 reminder handled. Or 7+4 where 4 is handled as 2 & 2 as intervals. 7 + 6 and so on. So multiples of 3 that leave many odd valued reminders have a new leash of life!
Is this something new or already in practice? Would like to know.
So in this case for the reminder of 34 mAtras , we can have 27 + 7 where it is 1,9, 2, 9 , 4 9 with 1, 2, 4 as prefixes.
If we also add interval into the mix we will have :
1 , 7 , 3 , 2, 7, 3 , 4, 7 where 7 is thrice repeating pattern , 3 is the two interval spaces and 1, 2, 4 form the prefixes, executed with their own emphatic sollus.
For 3 rounds we can add using a 6 and a 5 pattern:
For 6 : 1, 6, 3, 2 , 6, 33 , 4, 6  where now the interval itself has it's own arithmetic progression 3, and then 3,3. Possible? Aesthetic?
For 5 : 1, 5, 33 , 2, 5, 33, 4, 5
So the patterns with 5, 6, 7 can be done in each of the 3 rounds of the kOrvai.
Welcome comments from experts!