Is there something to this claim?

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
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sankark
Posts: 2344
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Is there something to this claim?

Post by sankark »

An interesting meld of music and material science?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1788865294406201555

Nick H
Posts: 9385
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Is there something to this claim?

Post by Nick H »

Even I have have seen and tapped on musical stone pillars: I wonder how many temples, etc have such things?

"They are not hollow." A musical thing does not have to be hollow. So all that reasoning seems, to me, to be rubbish.

Just My Opinion: no doubt, an architectural/structural wonder. But the real thing seems to have sparked an excess of imagination.

I'm not a scientist with deep knowledge of musical material science: we need Uday to comment!

uday_shankar
Posts: 1469
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Is there something to this claim?

Post by uday_shankar »

sankark wrote: 11 May 2024, 09:55 An interesting meld of music and material science?
No, mostly an attempt inject lofty mystical narratives behind a simple ordinary phenomenon, in an attempt to project that "ancient" (i.e., 12th century AD) Indians were on to some spectacular, deeply mystical knowledge not known anywhere else. Don't get me wrong, I find the musical pillars cute and interesting and I have been tapping them wherever I find them right from my college days. They are there in Hampi and in Tirunelveli district and that may hold a geological clue. But unfortunately they haven't inspired enough detailed scientific studies (scientific papers studying this phenomenon are few and far in-between). Clearly the composition of the rocks especially the iron content seems to hold the key. People have shown that such rocks could be created artificially by heating them above 2500C. If the so-called ancients did that, they have left no clue. So it is better to assume they found naturally occurring musical rocks. It is a testament to their immense diligence they were able collect suitable number of stones that could be reshaped (what happens to the frequencies when you reshape them? The frequency changes. It becomes sharper typically), hung in sequence, etc to produce musical scales. Hats off, but it is no greater a wonder than the fact that the amazing sculptures of Belur, Halebidu, Hampi, Ellora exist at all. Such shraddha is beyond the imagination of "moderns".

One clue about the naturally occurring musical rocks may be that the geological conditions were similar in Tirunelveli and Hampi when the rocks were formed. Who knows ?

As for the lady in the video talking of "Cymatc" patterns without explaining clearly what they are, it is another silly attempt to sound high falutin. Nowadays they are called Chladni patterns. At one point in the video they flashed a series of Chladni patterns on the screen with clearly electronically generated space age sounds that had nothing to do with pillars. Yet another attempt to confuse the viewer with voodoo.

Lastly, I link below a short video about the ringing rocks of Pennsylvania, which is a simple, back-to-the-basics, voodoo-free attempt to look at the phenomenon of musical rocks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpiMl8OO-AA

uday_shankar
Posts: 1469
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Is there something to this claim?

Post by uday_shankar »

Such rocks are everywhere:

Here's a good sober look at the singing rocks of Montana:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJAcJPDIqsE

The Gaval Dash singing stone in Azerbaijan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLwlokFJDrM

More from Azerbaijan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEf9cNoYd4k

Singing steps of Darasuram:
(unfortunately we can't hear them nowadays, thanks to them being protected from vandals)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI_GpM14wZM


This is very interesting. The Dan Da of Vietnam, the lithophone. VERY MUSICAL. But not sure if really stone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trTDTCixA_c

Nick H
Posts: 9385
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Is there something to this claim?

Post by Nick H »

I love Rock Music!

On day, I was walking on a beach of granite boulders, and found a place where they made semi-musical sounds when I made them knock together.

The temple where I played, the musical components were carved out of one pillar. On pillar was the "instrument" with several cut out vertical pieces like strings. Don't know how well it was tuned, but I guess thickness/length determined frequency.

Thanks, Uday, for the down-to-earth confirmation.

These singing stones are quite wonderful. Problem with people is that they think that making stuff up makes something more wonderful. It doesn't.

sankark
Posts: 2344
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: Is there something to this claim?

Post by sankark »

uday_shankar wrote: 14 May 2024, 15:58
sankark wrote: 11 May 2024, 09:55 An interesting meld of music and material science?
No, mostly an attempt inject lofty mystical narratives behind a simple ordinary phenomenon, in an attempt to project that "ancient" (i.e., 12th century AD) Indians were on to some spectacular, deeply mystical knowledge not known anywhere else. Don't get me wrong, I find the musical pillars cute and interesting and I have been tapping them wherever I find them right from my college days. They are there in Hampi and in Tirunelveli district and that may hold a geological clue. But unfortunately they haven't inspired enough detailed scientific studies (scientific papers studying this phenomenon are few and far in-between). Clearly the composition of the rocks especially the iron content seems to hold the key. People have shown that such rocks could be created artificially by heating them above 2500C. If the so-called ancients did that, they have left no clue. So it is better to assume they found naturally occurring musical rocks. It is a testament to their immense diligence they were able collect suitable number of stones that could be reshaped (what happens to the frequencies when you reshape them? The frequency changes. It becomes sharper typically), hung in sequence, etc to produce musical scales. Hats off, but it is no greater a wonder than the fact that the amazing sculptures of Belur, Halebidu, Hampi, Ellora exist at all. Such shraddha is beyond the imagination of "moderns".

One clue about the naturally occurring musical rocks may be that the geological conditions were similar in Tirunelveli and Hampi when the rocks were formed. Who knows ?

As for the lady in the video talking of "Cymatc" patterns without explaining clearly what they are, it is another silly attempt to sound high falutin. Nowadays they are called Chladni patterns. At one point in the video they flashed a series of Chladni patterns on the screen with clearly electronically generated space age sounds that had nothing to do with pillars. Yet another attempt to confuse the viewer with voodoo.

Lastly, I link below a short video about the ringing rocks of Pennsylvania, which is a simple, back-to-the-basics, voodoo-free attempt to look at the phenomenon of musical rocks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpiMl8OO-AA
thought so. thanks!

nAdopAsaka
Posts: 959
Joined: 20 Jul 2020, 17:05

Re: Is there something to this claim?

Post by nAdopAsaka »

inject lofty mystical narratives behind a simple ordinary phenomenon, in an attempt to project that "ancient" (i.e., 12th century AD) Indians were on to some spectacular, deeply mystical knowledge not known anywhere else.

it is certainly possible to “disparage” the mere resonances produced in solids , or even hollow objects , such as flutes or percussive drums, as simple ordinary phenomenon..

The mere production of organized packets of sound frequencies, such as by bird-song or dolphin-keening or khayAl
or by some AI machine/parrot , cannot claim any elevated place in human or animal or machine endeavor.

But the amalgam of Word and Idea to musical scales and meters and thence to worship, practised as nAda-upAsana in kritis and mantras by the ancient Hindus (and some modern ones) is spectacular.

And it is a unique millenial tradition not known anywhere else.

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