Christian sneak attack on Bharatanatyam

[shankarank]

This is not different from saying "Carnatic music began when the first girl or boy started beating on thighs to sing a gItam" - "beating on thighs" epithet was thrown about explicitly in this forum, search it!

As I proposed in the musical conscious evolution thread : "rAg music" began when the first issue of R2-G2 dissonance was addressed first! And that continues even now!

[sam]

On second reading of the historical narrative, there is a glaring oversight.
While the Kalabras ruled over tamil country from 200 AD to 600 AD, the sathavahana/aandhra dynasty 200 BC to 200 AD( sangam period) had become the vaakataka kingdom but lost the east coast.

The Gupta empire comprised the entire Gangetic plain, gujarat, orissa, coastal Andhra ( vengi)and extended upto Kanchipuram..

There was a marriage alliance between
Guptas and Vakataka princess. So the entire deccan ..Maharashtra, karnataka, telengana, southern madhya pradesh , all in vaakataka reign- became friends of Guptas except Tamil country.
.
Personally, i have wondered how the first three Azhwaars, Paeyaazhvaar, Poykai Azhvaar and Boothatthaazhvaar all happened to reside in Chennai area!

I suppose, it was due to it being the southern tip of Gupta empire
Thondai mandalam.
.
As universally, accepted, the Gupta perod was the Golden era of India.

The language of state, and education ,science and arts was SANSKRIT.

People's language was Praakrutham, fhe mother of all the major deccan languages of today.
.
Hinduism as it stands today, had its emergence in Gupta period.. 200 AD to 600 AD. ( Tamil country was left out due to kalabra).
.
Pointedly, though Christianity had arrived as a peaceful gospel and won over a good chunk of kerala upper caste orthodox intelligensia, it still was confined to west coast only.
.
Even more important, Islam was yet to come to kerala or even in Sind.
..
Guptas were undeniably Hindus. They were vaisyas. All the puranas were written during the Gupta period. Literary Sanskrit found its full flowering.
.
Kanchipuram and Pallava kingdoms were a continuation of the Gupta era.

Dr.APJ Kalaam has admiringly extolled the great achievents of that era in mathematics, astronomy, anatomy, medicine and chemistry.

He is amazed at the cultural ambience created due to the common language, which enabled a thesis propounded in a small village in Kerala to spread very fast all over the country, get
examined and win approval all over the country.
Better to bear in mind the limited communication channels of those distant centuries.

Is it not tragic that such a great language and knowledge system got destroyed by invading hordes?
And came to be identified with the language of maanava dharma saastram?..due to brahmin orthodoxy?

All that was 1500 years back. We cannot travel back in time to 600 AD when so many western countries were
mere pockets of hermits.

The north american states. (Not Mexico) did not even have any cultural presence.

We can and must move forward with modern languages. English is the key.
.
That is, if we somehow escape a NUCLEAR DISASTER, before the coming new year
.

[shankarank]

In their own words:

https://www.catholic.com/qa/no-proof-st ... t-to-india

[sam]

It is certainly possible that St. Thomas went to India as part of his ministry, and there is no other tradition that contradicts a potential mission to India. Part of Southwest India was also under the jurisdiction of Edessa, which could explain why his remains were moved there if he died in India.

[shankarank]

Hinduism as it stands today, had its emergence in Gupta period.. 200 AD to 600 AD. ( Tamil country was left out due to kalabra).
.

What is this then- not Hinduism , as it stands today? 3rd to 2nd Century BCE

https://x.com/GemsOfINDOLOGY/status/1717363397665456581

And we were converting too! https://x.com/GemsOfINDOLOGY/status/1827989808687546487

100-BCE : Rare relief of Vasudeva crossing Yamuna:

https://x.com/GemsOfINDOLOGY/status/1664580139320229888

180-BCE : Coin depicting Balarama of Agathocles

https://x.com/subhash_kak/status/923216500865011712

https://x.com/DalrympleWill/status/1424341043265241094

https://x.com/Param_Chaitanya/status/15 ... 0888869890

300 - 200 BCE : Magadha/Maurya coin - Vasudeva, Sankarshana

https://x.com/chronicle_watch/status/15 ... 5342115840

200BCE : Patanjali dated to 200 BCE by Western Scholars (may be before) refers to existence of temples dedicated to Kesava/Balarama

https://x.com/MumukshuSavitri/status/17 ... 1407865118

200 - 100 BCE : Naneghat Inscription by Satavahana Queen Naganika:

https://x.com/Param_Chaitanya/status/15 ... 0161973248

Continuity from BCE era to CE era:

https://x.com/monidipadey/status/1827936769515417677


500 - BCE - Snake Goddess Nagamma in Tirunelveli Rock Art:
https://x.com/GemsOfINDOLOGY/status/1673504807133511680

Naga devatas are worshipped today. Our family deity is a Sarpa yOgi included as part of a Shiva temple. Not Hinduism?

[sam]

All the links except naaga , confirm my statement .

The North west fell to near west ..eastern greeks..
vaasudeva cult established

.
Thank you.

I remember to have read somewhere that the Krushna story owes a lot to Greeks.
I would rather say that the alexandrian greeks were captivated by the bagavatam story of surasena and mathsya desa janapadha mathura folklore and celebrated them.
.
The Pandyas , Cheras and Cholas of far south India were originally residents of ganga'yamuna do aab at the time of Mahabaratha war in 1000 BC. Cholas frim gaandharam ..afganistan..

As clearly and unambiguously confirmdd by PuraNaanooru poem. Pandyans were the Tamils of yadhu clan originally from mathsya desam janapadha on the banks of yamuna river.. The poet lauds the pandya as 'panchavar aeru'.
It is a wonderful poem. It associates paandyas only , with the Thamizh language. It also says that as after all, paddy and such are nothing special, the pandyans identified themselves with pearls and sandalwood.

. Choazhas were sibiyans..mun kudumi horse fighters of afgan border. Siva worshippers.
Possibly,
Cheras were huns wo had settled down in Rajasthan.

Dating of Mahabaratha war as 1000 BC has been accepted by F.E.Pargiter. it is a remarkable book which i had the good luck to read. Surprisingly, the book was intriduced to me by a Marxist!

I think, Jones the polygot studied VISHNUPURAANAM ,and translafed it. It is comparatively short and basis for baagavatham and Naaraayaneeyam.

Thus, the far south Pandyan kingdom is the surviving connection of post vedic
Janapadhas of North India.

Tamils, especially, the far south pandyans are the true inheritors of the mahabaaratha war legacy.
( more in next post)

[shankarank]

But the discussion is about when did Hinduism emerge as practiced today! The Naneghat inscription which is as down South as Maharashtra pushes it back to 200 - 100 BCE : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naneghat

Also remember, numismatic evidence is available only after the coin age : 7th Century BC onwards : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karshapana

So, for Vasudeva and Sankarshana to appear on coins will take sometime. Doesn't mean the knowledge and remembrance can be fixed when coins were made.

Mahabharata as per remembered in inscriptions by Pulikesin is recorded as dating back to 3137 BCE : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabhara ... %203137BCE.

But that is a reference only in historical period. Because of it's similarities to Iliad, people think it is an Indo-European legend or myth.

[sam]

There was a network interruption
Kindly allow me to say more on the roots of vaishnavism.
Many historians, brush aside the reference in sangam literature to perum chotru uthiyalaathan. He remained neutral in the Great war and fed both the paandavas and kouravas.
He was neutral because it was a fratricidal war and so many participants were all blood relatives.
How was it possible for kerala army to fight in haryana? Simple. All the three tamil kings were then living in north india. It was in 1000 BC.

If persian army of xerxes could march to anatolia troy in turkey to fight the ancient greeks..what is so improbable?
The macedonian likewise marched to Sind but his generals refused to march further fearing the huge and mighty army of magadhan empire.

Hinduism as being practised from 200 AD, is entirely shaped by puranas.
And by KaaLidasa.
After all, valmiki raamayanam was definitely co buddhist or even pre buddhist.
What was however the state religion?
Chandrgupta mourya converted himself into jainism at sravana belgula near Hasan, During Asoka reign the state religion was buðdhism..
During sunga -kanva rule in gangetic
Plain, it was brahminism...ritualistic vedism.
Even in sathavahana period, the state religion was brahminism/jainism/buddhism.

Only during Gupta rule, puranic hinduism was the state religion.
.
But there is a puzzle for me.
Why, the immediate successors of
Guptas, were Harshavardhan a buddhist in gangetic plain, pulikesin, again a buddhist in maharashtra, mahendra pallavan a jain originally and pandya a jain before conversion?

No idea.


..
More relevant is the ancient seafaring connection between the LEVANT ( palestine) and the far south east coast of Tamil country. The Thirucchendur teri
has given us many artifacts like the cock ..saeval kodiyon. And Spear.

Scientific carbon dating places it around 1000 BC, King Solomon's time.
.
Even today, aazhvar thiru nagari of Nammaazhvar and Madhurakavi and the town of Nazareth are adjacent places in Thaamravarni delta railway line.
Naanguneri, ĵeeyar mutt is ancient.
Thirukkjrunkudi?

The connection with the LEVANT is as ancient.
..
The far south of Tamilnadu, was vaishnavite , .the invocation poem of sangam literature is by Baaratham Paadiya Perum thevanaar.
.
Later, villillipputthoorar baratham also sang about the great war.
.
Tamil country was known as pandyan land famous for its pearls ..even at the time of chandragupta mourya.

Even earlier, the nandas had invaded the deep south as sung by poet maamoolanar.

Silappafhikaaram Mathuraik kaandam, aaychiyar kuravai gives a correct picture about rasa leela krishna and nappinnai.
Lovely poetry.

The scene where the ladies dance singing the praise of maayon and his mesmerizing flute music.
It is not about ladies dancing withmaayon.

Mahabaaratham glorifies Lord Krushna as a peacemaker, statesman and
Preserver of draupadi's honour.
.
The Gita is an ideological response to
The extreme non violence of jainism and buddhism. '
pavithraaNAya sadunam, vinasaya cha dushkruthaam , dharma samsthapanarthaaya..
...counter violence may be real politik.
.
But in the age of space war and nuclear disaster, who is the winner ?

The final chapter when yamaa takes dhadmaputra to show heaven and hell, when Dharmaputra hears wails from his brothers in hell and kauravas enjoying heaven, ..it is not always the just who win, perhaps?
.
Fight not the evil by evil. .Jesus.
St.Mathew.

Only the near future will teach the survivors.
We do not know.

It is an irony that the liberal globalists are the agency of destruction and conservatives are trying for peace.
Read this in the context of the second
attempt.
. .

[shankarank]

State religion is less important when there is co-existence and mutual respect even with differences. If anything, the Naneghat inscription is used as evidence for the locating the era, more than the fact that a royal person made it.

All sampradayas of bharat exist today in varying degrees. So, what you refer to as Hinduism as practiced today has continuity from 500 BC when rock art was made for goddess, Nagamma.

The intellectual debates and state patronage are confined to a narrow slice of the population! Large sections continued to practice their local worship and such.

We always tend to imagine based on recent history of religions that: an entire swath of population simply converts! Not so!

[sam]

When a system becomes the state religion, its pontiffs get state patronage. When the kings and the economic leaders themselves bow to the pontiff, common people also follow suit.
Sage vidhyaranya and founders if vijaya nagar.

Pontiff vyaasaraaya and vijayanagar.

Saint Ramdas and Sivaji.

Christianity spread far and wide, when the Roman emperor himself embraced it. It was not mere tactics.

The emperors found that religion is
more useful to control and unify the citizens.

Absolute power is not always bad nor liberty always good.
It depends on the conditiins and consequences.
There have been many benevalent dictatorships.

Today, the entire Latin American continent, central america , Mexico, spain,Portugal, France, Italy, entire eastern europe, Russia are all orthodox christians and Grèece too.

They do listen to their pontifs.

. The entire western asia, iran, turkey, afgan, pak, bangla, malaya and indonesia and some areas in emerging africa follow Islam and because of Oil and Gas, they wield tremendous power
They too offer allegiance to their ulema..

And the problem is they are inherently expansionist.

. The collective west is also domineering but not for any spiritual reason but for economic reasons cloaked as human liberty and liberalism.

Kerala is a shining example that different faths can co exist and even
participate ..the sabarimalai cult.

Just last week, the entire Malayali world, celebrated ThuruvoNam.

Were they celebrating mahaabali or thri vikraman? The tradition is that it is the festival for Mahaabali! as a devotee Of mahaavishnu.

We need Hindu religion as state religion .it is the only unifying force.
We would not dismiss it as superstition if we have seen the incredible kumbamela congregation , literally, crores of people in a small area, with the least crime.

It is a wonder that the earth does not cave in.
.
Faith gives purpose in life.
It gives community spirit.

Irreligion of neo liberalism leads to depression, and drugs.

This is not to deny the tribal and clan customs persisting over many centuries but subaltern streams do not decide the fate of the nation.

Ulakam enpathu uyarnthoar maattae.
.
Millions participate in many famous temple festivals in tamilnadu, be it
Madurai, thirucchendur, palani, kanchipuram, thiruvannamalai, chitambaram and many more places.
Definitely good thing.

May I give link to a nice tamil article?
It is abiut religion in Gupta era.
No liberal dares to touch durga pooja in bengal.

https://kizhakkutoday.in/gupta-perarasu-34/



..
,

[sam]

Excuse me for the thamizh script.
கன்று குணிலாக் கனி உதிர்த்த மாயவன்
இன்று நம் ஆனுள் வருமேல், அவன் வாயில்
கொன்றை அம் தீம் குழல் கேளாமோ, தோழீ!

பாம்பு கயிறாக் கடல் கடைந்த மாயவன்
ஈங்கு நம் ஆனுள் வருமேல், அவன் வாயில்
ஆம்பல் அம் தீம் குழல் கேளாமோ, தோழீ!

கொல்லை அம் சாரல் குருந்து ஒசித்த மாயவன்
எல்லை நம் ஆனுள் வருமேல், அவன் வாயில்
முல்லை அம் தீம் குழல் கேளாமோ, தோழீ!
.
This stanza appears just before
Vadavaraiyai matthaakki.

[vgovindan]

இவ்வுடலே குழலாம், உடலில் உயிரெனும் கீதம் இசைப்பது அம்மாயவனே.
அவனை உள்ளே காண மறந்து உலகெங்கும் தேடித் திரியும் திசையறியா ஆவினம் நாமே.
அவன் குழலோசை அன்று தொட்டு இன்றுவரை நின்றதில்லை, அதை அறிந்திடவே இத்தனை அல்லலும். மாயவனை வெளியில் தேடாது, உன் உள்வெளியிலே காண விழைவாயே.

(குறிப்பு - இந்த ஆவின மாயவனையே பசுபதியென்பர் - இறைவன் ஒருவனே, அவனை வேறுபடுத்திக் காட்டுவர், மதமென்ற பெயரிலே.)

[sam]

Sankaran sir is right about the serpent cult. What is its significance? Quora posts try to explain.
Aadhi seshan in vaishnavite vishnu lore.

Sesham is remnant.

When vasudeva crosses the yamuna in torrential rains and floods, it is the naaga who provides protection to the infant krushna.
KaaLiya Nardhanam in krushna lore.
Garudaa, vishnu's vaahanam has naaga in its feet.
Naaga as garland in sivas neck.
Peacock of muruga has the snake at its feet.
Durga has naaga as one of her weapons.
Some portrayals of Ganapathy show snake across his chest.
..
Anthropologically, naaga refers to aborigines. Nagnam?
.perhaps, it refers to worship of very ancient hostile aborihinal communities who were subjugated ,befriended and co-opted into Indian religious lore.

Or is it a reference to digambara jain monks?

Jayadeva ashtapathi speaks of Buddha as another incarnation of Vishnu.

Even Buddhist sculptures have naaga depictions. Naaga icons are worshipped as protectors, the supplanted and supportive ancestors.

The far south abounds in naaga icons under banyan trees. .

Seshan is a venerated figure. Other religions may not have any such icon.
..
Paripaadal is one among the ancient
Eight sangam anthogies. Ettuth thokai
.
There are poems about thirumaal, kumaran, vaigai river and madurai.
.
In the context of aadhiseshan and vishnu, the following snippet may be of intrrest.
............
Translation by Vaidehi.

Can even the sages who know your tradition tell that
somebody is your enemy or somebody is your friend?
O Thirumāl with your mount as Garudan who seized
Āthisēdan with thousand heads with his beak! O Lord
அவுணர்க்கும் முதல்வன் நீ!
அதனால் பகைவர் இவர் இவர் நட்டோர் என்னும்
வகையும் உண்டோ நின் மரபு அறிவோர்க்கே?
ஆயிர அணர்தலை அரவு வாய்க் கொண்ட
சேவல் ஊர்தியும் செங்கண் மாஅல்! 6....

[sam]

Please have a look.
Sangam Poems Translated by Vaidehi - rasikas.org
https://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopi ... 82#p382882