Tala in Music

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Apr 2007, 23:44

Ultimately, I look only at the effect on the song. Speed of the song changes only relative to the thala in case of 3b. If I don't see you putting the talam when I'm hearing the song over an audio system, I won't find any difference when you do the 3b change.

In the MLV's Chandrachuda we talked about before, don't you find the difference when MLV does the 3b change to kandam?

Btw, I'm not disputing 3b now. I was just trying to form the model that will explain both and I think I have done that in one of my previous posts.

Can you clarify this Bala? May be it is possible that we are all in violent agreement here

What is the problem in this? ( in the alankara example you gave )

In your representation, is the sub-beat interval the same or the outer beat interval the same between the two groups? If I recall right, for the same alankaram you keep the sub-beat interval the same.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 17 Apr 2007, 09:17

VK,
In the alankara, I kept the outer beat interval same. That's why I had a space between the swaras in trisra gathi to show inner beat getting longer. if I had kept the sub-beat same, there is no change in speed of the song with respect to a watch.

I'm saying 3b and 3a are one and the same if your frame of reference is the tala of the musician. In simple terms, it's like relative velocity that we learnt in school.

If you are able to spot the difference by hearing, then I probably did not understand 3b properly. As I understand 3b, you are singing the same speed with respect to the watch but changing the speed of the thalam. Please clarify if this is what you mean by 3b. Ofcourse, if you change both the speed of the song and the thalam, you could certainly hear the difference. I would also listen and let you know my thoughts.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 17 Apr 2007, 09:29

arunk wrote:bala, others

w.r.t to Sankari Sankaru, if it is put with Adi tiSra gati, the internal structure would be as follows (note: i dont really know this song and so this is just my idea of how the song goes!)
Code: Select all
Sa n ka | ri Sa n | ku ru ca | n dra mu || khi , , | , a khi || lA N DE | S wa ri
In catusra gati rUpaka (cApu style), it would be
Code: Select all
Sa n ka ri | Sa n ka ru | ca n dra mu || ki , , , | a ki lA N | De S wa ri
So the outer beats are not of the same "duration" if one were to compare a singer who sings both in exactly the same way, same tempo i.e. basically such that entire line above takes the exact same duration in both rende. The outer beat duration for catusra would take longer since fewer outer beats for the line duration.

Arun,
That's the point I'm making. I'm not saying outer beat duration should remain constant when "you change thalam". What we are saying as gathi change is something that occurs within the same thalam. For instance, you have started in Adi chaturarsa gathi, how would you change to Adi trisra gathi. Nick and I are saying you keep the outer beat same and pack more or less syllables within the same outer beat. I think DRS is saying you dont change the speed of the song but change the speed of the thalam. That is the point of contention and that is not resolved through this Saveri krithi example because in that example you change both the thalam and the gathi. However, please also see my post that there is no difference between 3a and 3b if the frame of reference is the thalam of the musician.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Apr 2007, 10:02

I would also listen and let you know my thoughts.

I think it is about time

Let us see what you say after listening to that. I am quite confused about many things you wrote ( speed of the thalam, speed of the song, relative speed, speed with respect to the watch, thala of the musician as opposed to ???.... etc. ).

Just to reset/recap the definitions: A 3a type change from chathusra to khanda is where you pack in 5 syllables instead of 4 in the same outer beat interval; a 3b type change from chathusra to khanda is you use the same sub-beat interval, use 5 sub beats instead of 4, thus extending the outer beat interval 25%.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Apr 2007, 10:29

What we are saying as gathi change is something that occurs within the same thalam.

See we are going to circles now. How do you then explain the 175 thalas?

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 17 Apr 2007, 10:33

VK,
Just to add to the definitions

3a - Since you pack in more syllables in the same duration of the avarthanam, the speed of the song changes.

3b - Since the outer beat interval changes, the speed of the thala changes.

What is the problem in this? Please let me know if I'm wrong.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Apr 2007, 11:32

Drilling down in definitions further: ( this may take the discussion little off course )

speed of the thala is (number of outer beats/unit time )

How do you define the speed of the song? To provide a more solid mathematical foundation, let us invent a new thing. Let us call it microsyllable M. Using 3a definition of thisra, chathsra etc: 420 of these will make thisra syllable, 315 of these would make up chathusra syllable, 252 to make kanda syllable, 180 of these to make a misra syllable and 140 of these to make a sankeerna syllable.

Then the speed of the song can be defined as (number of Ms)/unit time .

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 17 Apr 2007, 11:44

Speed of song = number of syllables/unit time

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Apr 2007, 11:49

I edited post #107 to provide my definition. See if you agree.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 17 Apr 2007, 11:59

vasanthakokilam wrote:See we are going to circles now. How do you then explain the 175 thalas?

There are only 2 ways to explain the 175 thalas
1. Interpret the definition of thala to include all its elements as I have already stated in one of my previous posts
2. Or assume it is pointless like DRS.

I don't have an issue with either approach though my personal preference is 1. But let's not get into this debate now.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 17 Apr 2007, 12:00

Can you explain those numbers 420, 315 etc?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Apr 2007, 12:27

Micro syllable M is the invariant ( however artificial it is ) for 3a purposes. Those numbers are arrived at so that the relative syllable lengths of 3a thisram, chathusram, kandam etc. are maintained.

I don't have an issue with either approach though my personal preference is 1.

Once you take that position, then variation within a thala itself is not possible since any variation will change the thala. I am stating that because you also mentioned that "What we are saying as gathi change is something that occurs within the same thalam."

BTW, I don't think DRS mentioned that 175 thalas are pointless.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 17 Apr 2007, 12:45

vasanthakokilam wrote:Once you take that position, then variation within a thala itself is not possible since any variation will change the thala. I am stating that because you also mentioned that "What we are saying as gathi change is something that occurs within the same thalam."

I have already explained this. You are trying to make a conclusion based on 2 different definitions of thalam. Please don't intermingle them

The second statement on gathi change assumes your definition of thala which does not include gathi as part of its description.

The first statement is made in the context of the proposed/new interpretation that includes gathi as part of the thalam itself. So, as you pointed out it will change the thalam. But, the spec of the kriti says only Adi thalam. So, it is all right to change the thalams as long as it belongs to the adi thalam family as it still conforms to the spec.

BTW, I don't think DRS mentioned that 175 thalas are pointless.

He did say it is pointless if we go by my definition of gathi and I see his point

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 Apr 2007, 12:54

sbala wrote:2. Or assume it is pointless like DRS. .

Excuse me!. Dont quote me wrongly due to your inability to understand. And I think it is best you speak for yourself. You said naDe change within a tALa- outer beat remains constant. I asked you to kindly demonstrate this naDe change within the same tALa of any alankARa. You could not do it and that is fine. I didnt think it would be possible (For anyone). In this case you only keep subunit length same and cannot I repeat Cannot keep outer beat of constant length.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 17 Apr 2007, 12:55

Vk,
I just found an interesting link as I was googling for the 10 elements of thala. Maybe, this will help us settle the argument.

http://www.musicresearch.in/categorydet ... p?imgid=43

Download the pdf and in page 20 and 21, he talks about gathi change.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 Apr 2007, 12:57

See- if you limit tALa strictly to tALa in isolation without taking it as part of the larger music, you can talk of keeping length of outer beat constant. Yes- that can be done by singing 3, 4 5 or 7 syllables within a given time. Throw in akSharas or swaras from a musical piece, all this gets thrown out of gear and redundant. The outer beat will not remain constant. You automatically change the outer beat while keeping the subunit length constant. And that is how it should be.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 17 Apr 2007, 12:59

drshrikaanth wrote:Excuse me!. Dont quote me wrongly due to your inability to understand. And I think it is best you speak for yourself. You said naDe change within a tALa- outer beat remains constant. I asked you to kindly demonstrate this naDe change within the same tALa of any alankARa. You could not do it and that is fine. I didnt think it would be possible (For anyone). In this case you only keep subunit length same and cannot I repeat Cannot keep outer beat of constant length.

Ok. I won't quote you. But please refrain from any rude posts. I could also give it back in kind.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 Apr 2007, 13:02

Bala
I have not been rude to you. So dont give that line. You were rude in commenting about my smilies and taking an aggressive stance. And looking for ulterior motives and trickery in my question. You are free to quote me "in context".

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Apr 2007, 13:10

sbala wrote:Vk,
I just found an interesting link as I was googling for the 10 elements of thala. Maybe, this will help us settle the argument.

http://www.musicresearch.in/categorydet ... p?imgid=43

Download the pdf and in page 20 and 21, he talks about gathi change.

sbala, I am familiar with that paper and I have corresponded with Dr. Ramanathan by email before. I will leave it at that for now.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 17 Apr 2007, 13:20

DRS,
It wasn't the smilies but you said we were arguing at crosspurposes and that's what I didn't like. Of course, I didn't mean trickery as in deception when you asked for the demo. I did not see the point you were trying to drive there and that's why I wanted the clarification. And I did give the eka thala alankaram but you did not say what was wrong in that. You gave the Saveri examples and I looked at it and gave my explanation. Don't use phrases like "inability to understand"..All of us are talented in different ways and we don't need to comment on each other's intelligence.

In any case, I don't want to continue this discussion any further. Thanks for all the inputs.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 Apr 2007, 13:48

Bala
I said "we" were "talking" at crosspurposes. I am surprised you took offence at that.

EkatALa alankAra- see, when you vary a naDe in tALa (in your definition), everything within the tALa (swaras here) should also fall follow suit. Now if you say there is no difference in a tALa even when naDe changes within that tALa, then it follows that all that is within one Avarta should be within one Avarta at all times and across all naDes. If that does not happen, that questions the concept right?

"Inability to understand"- no I was not commenting on your talent or intelligence. I did not mean to come across that way. I respect individuals as they are. It was only in this context of you simply carrying on with what you were saying without seeing my and some others' point that was distracting.

Thanks

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 17 Apr 2007, 14:09

DRS,
Thanks for the clarifications. Maybe, I didn't communicate my thoughts properly. I was able to sense that myself based on some of the responses I got. I always thought communication wasn't one of my weaknesses but I guess I have to improve. I learnt quite a bit from all of you during these discussions and I'm happy for that. Let's leave it at that.

sr_iyer · Post by **sr_iyer** » 17 Apr 2007, 14:33

I have been following this thread silently. Would like to make a couple of points.

Dear DrS,

You have mentioned (to sbala)

You said naDe change within a tALa- outer beat remains constant. I asked you to kindly demonstrate this naDe change within the same tALa of any alankARa. You could not do it and that is fine. I didnt think it would be possible (For anyone). In this case you only keep subunit length same and cannot I repeat Cannot keep outer beat of constant length.

It is indeed possible to do so. In the EkatALa example that sbala has written out, consider that each srgm like 4 note cluster in caturas'ra naDai takes one second (i.e. each note takes 0.25 seconds). When we transition to tis'ra naDai, the first three notes srg would occupy the same duration as srgm in catus'ra naDai. Thus, in tis'ra naDai, each note would take 0.33 seconds. This is akin to the routine tis'ram exercise in varNams. An Adi tALa varNam that takes 6 Avartanams for its pUrvAngam in caturas'ra naDai would take 4 Avartanams in tis'ra naDai to complete. The duration taken for each Avartanam would be unchanged across the naDai bhEdam. Effected properly, this would pose no detriment to the quality of musical output too.

sr_iyer · Post by **sr_iyer** » 17 Apr 2007, 14:56

My humble opinions on counter-examples that may be perceived to exist.

[In order to distinguish two forms of reckoning the naDai, I will use the terms explicit naDai reckoning for the case where a khaNDa naDai of a kriyA is shown akin to a khaNDa cApu. I will use the term implicit naDai for the case where only the kriyA transitions are reckoned without explicit naDai subdivisions. (Some prefer to distinguish the terms naDai and gati based on this difference, but this may not be a universal distinction).]

In order to provide a sort of counter-example (where the naDai subdivision is invariant across naDai changes -- opposed to my earlier post where the naDai subdivision changes to maintain the outerbeat duration), consider the example of chanda tALas used in tiruppugazh. To closely align with the prosody of the words, the subunit duration (the hrasva syllabic duration in sAhitya sense which can be conceived of as the atomic syllabic unit lyrically) is kept constant and what may be termed as the explicit naDai of individual kriyAs could be perceived to be changed.

E.g. the words apakAra nindai (in apakAranindaipaTTuzhalAdE) are modelled as 2+3+3 syllabic units - the way of explicitly reckoning the tALa naDai for this portion in case of chanda tALa are chosen to map on to the native durations of constituent syllabic units. (Note: the same tiruppugazh can be rendered in the standard tALa; in this case, Adi - but the tight coupling between the kriyAs and words would not exist. Probably since in the context of tiruppugazh, there is an exactitude of prosodical measures vis-a-vis the other kRtis in CM, chanda tALas are employed by some practitioners for tiruppugazh)

Such tALas are outside the 35(x5) tALa system.

Another such example (I think a relatively modern innovation) is the mis'ramukhi concept used by vidvAns like BMK where the sas'abda kriyAs could be in explicit mis'ra naDai (reckoned like mis'ra cApu) and nis'abda kriyAs in caturas'ra naDai where the basic naDai subunit duration is maintained at the cost of altering the equality of kriyA duration. The latter (mis'ramukhi, pancamukhi etc) has been employed in pallavis by eminent vidvAns (I think Smt MLV too) and requires intelligence and concentration -- it must be added that this concept has not found universal acceptance among musicians - I have heard that Sri PMI was not in favour of this innovation.

The more accepted form of naDai bhEdam in performed music is to keep the Avartana duration constant across the transitions in naDai. (For the record, the Avartana duration needs to be maintained constant in the above cases too - but switches in naDai for individual kriyAs do result in the above exceptional cases in a change in outer beat or kriyA duration to keep the basic inner units as suggested by the naDai constant.)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 Apr 2007, 15:51

sr_iyer wrote:It is indeed possible to do so. In the EkatALa example that sbala has written out, consider that each srgm like 4 note cluster in caturas'ra naDai takes one second (i.e. each note takes 0.25 seconds). When we transition to tis'ra naDai, the first three notes srg would occupy the same duration as srgm in catus'ra naDai. Thus, in tis'ra naDai, each note would take 0.33 seconds.

Dear sr_iyer
Thanks for your input.

At the cost of repetition- All that is within one Avarta/beat of a tALa in one naDe (say caturaSra) should also fall within one Avarta of the same in another naDe (Say triSra). So SRGM from caturaSra naDe should be accommmodated withing one beat of triSra naDe as well (God knows how one could do that). Otherwise we cannot maintain tALa is constant as everything else falls out of place.

This is akin to the routine tis'ram exercise in varNams. An Adi tALa varNam that takes 6 Avartanams for its pUrvAngam in caturas'ra naDai would take 4 Avartanams in tis'ra naDai to complete. The duration taken for each Avartanam would be unchanged across the naDai bhEdam. Effected properly, this would pose no detriment to the quality of musical output too.

I dont think this is correct. The duration for each Avarta of tALa does Not remain unchanged. The duration for each Avarta of sAhitya remains unchanged. The whole varNa takes no less or no more time to finish, whichever naDe you choose to sing it in. And that is simply because the duration of the subbeat remains constant. So what you sing in 6 Avartas of caturaSra naDe Adi (6x8x4) gets accommodated within and takes same time as what is sung in 4 Avartas of triSra naDe of the same Adi tALa(4x8x6). And this applies to swaras and sAhitya as well. Please time any triSra rendition of a varna and you will see what I say.

sr_iyer · Post by **sr_iyer** » 17 Apr 2007, 16:01

Dear DrS,

A varNam composed in caturas'ra naDai and rendered in tis'ram would definitely manifest itself in the way I have described - I speak out of (my humble) personal experience.

To refer to a clip publicly available, I would like to point to the following if not inappropriate to do so in this forum.

(Edited - I have changed the previously indicated clip since the rapidshare link mentioned therein is no longer active)

Please check the first clip at
http://www.sangeethapriya.org/~rasika/T ... erpts).zip

Unfortunately the first part of this clip is missing (this should have contained first kAlam slow speed caturas'ra naDai and transition to second kAlam caturas'ra naDai). The clip starts in the middle of the second speed caturas'ra naDai rendition of kalyANi aTa tALa varNam followed by transition to tis'ram at 0:22

(If listened to carefully, one can actually hear a 'kaLai-subdivision' beat placed in the centre of the first dIrgha madhyamam in the svaras p , m , g ,, r -- this accounts to three inner beat units - p , m (beat) , g , , etc.)

The transition back to caturas'ra naDai first kAla takes place at 1:39 in the clip.

The speed of reckoning the tALa (and thus the Avartana duration) in such a transition through musical-speeds is not variant.

Thanks.

sr_iyer · Post by **sr_iyer** » 17 Apr 2007, 16:16

At the cost of repetition- All that is within one Avarta/beat of a tALa in one naDe (say caturaSra) should also fall within one Avarta of the same in another naDe (Say triSra). So SRGM from caturaSra naDe should be accommmodated withing one beat of triSra naDe as well (God knows how one could do that). Otherwise we cannot maintain tALa is constant as everything else falls out of place.

The steps are:

1. Map each takadhimi cluster of inner beats of a kriyA in caturas'ra naDai to a takiTa inner beats of tis'ra naDai such that the mapping results in kriyAs that do not change in their time-spacing during the naDai transition.
2. Now group/cluster the inner beats of the above described tis'ra-naDai formation into the natural splits/groupings as demanded by the musical setting maintaining the inner-beat-interval of the obtained tis'ra speed intact. This is a beautiful phenomenon of multi-layered rhythm where the musical splitting/grouping is different from the intrinsic grouping as suggested by the naDai and provides a cross rhythmic effect.
3. Your concern may be that the alankAram (or musical setting taken up for tis'ram) may not finish to an integral number of Avartanams. The alankAram could be repeated thrice. (For instance, this is done for tis'ram in pallavis intrinsically set in caturas'ra naDai, where the pallavi musical/sAhitya-cycle in tis'ra naDai is repeated thrice to fit in two Avartanas of reckoned tALa for example.) There are other methods to finish to integral number of Avartanas. E. g. one slow tis'ram musical-cycle followed by one double speed tis'ram musical-cycle. The example I gave of a varNa pUrvAngam with 6 Avartana-s does not need such repetitions since the number of base Avartanas in musical setting i.e. 6 is divisible by 2 and 3. (In transition to tis'ra, whatever music occupied three Avartanas of caturas'ra naDai now occupies two Avartanas of tis'ra naDai)

These steps are commonly used for the tis'ram stage of singing a pallavi set to caturas'ra naDai and by extension any generic naDai bhedam (e.g.s from what I have heard in naDai pallavis -- a tis'ra naDai pallavi transitioned to caturas'ra naDai and back by TRS, caturas'ra naDai svaras for GNB's rendition of gAnalOla karuNalavAla, the pallavi basically set to tis'ra naDai and shaNmukhapriyA as rendered by GNB etc)

(Note that the 4->3 mapping of inner units of kriyA indicated in step 1 is scalable to 2->3 or 4->6 inner units in a kriyA)

PS: Note that the following portion of the note of yours would not be applicable in these steps.

SRGM from caturaSra naDe should be accommmodated withing one beat of triSra naDe as well (God knows how one could do that).

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Apr 2007, 23:28

Oh my goodness... now I have several pages of posts to catch up, and, what's more, I'm loosing track of some of original definitions of the participants' terms

In what has become my house-completion and moving fortnight, I may never catch up with this thread (but I expect there'll be a next time

)

I really have barely skimmed the last several pages, and was aware of having missed several posts before my last contribution, but I would like still to react to one thing that sticks in my mind, and, probably, to add my repetition to this thread.

Something that stood out to me was the assertion that the nadai change as played by mridangist in a thani is not true nadai, but some sort of effect.

I can only respond with astonishment to that idea! The theory and practice of talam is the same for a mridangist as it is for a vocalist as it is for a veena player. They may have their own repertoire of rhythmic composition, but even much of that may well be shared by the tala-enthusiastic performers among swara and pallavi presenters --- and is certainly shared by dancers.

It may be a common part of the mridangist's performance to change from chatusra nadai to tisra and return to chatusra --- it is hardly unheard of in swara kalpana. Whereas some mridangists may treat us to a stream of different nadais (past my laya-sense ability to count, I'm afraid) and such a progression may be rare in vocal performance, there is no reason that it should not be there if anyone wishes to take it up.

I well remember the days before my first mridangam classes when, in total ignorance of the structure of what I was seeing, I thought that the musician was just speeding up, little by little --- as a western musician, unhampered by such numerical niceties as nadai, is free to do. That is the effect.

That is nadai as it is seen during the performance of any one song, or any one thani, and the effect on the ear will be a speeding or slowing of the rendition.

The fact that a song may be composed in a particular nadai/talam composition from the 35 talas is an entirely different matter altogether. If we discuss nadai change, the talam or its structure is not particularly relevant, as it can be done in any talam (although usually not in the chapu talas????).

The duration of the akshara or avartanum in any given talam is dependent more on artistic interpretation --- or whether the artist has a train to catch after the concert! Reacting to remembering that train half-way through a song is not permitted

So, I would suggest a re-examination of the topic, removing all mention of individual or different tala structures, or equivalent numbers between them. Nadai change is to do with matra and akshara, pulse and beat. If kryas and angas can be forgotten for a while, and each beat marked by a humble clap, I believe all will be simple and clear.

Oh... and singing 4 syllables in the space of three in a tisra composition would simply be a change to chatusra nadai for the duration.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 17 Apr 2007, 23:59

A few balanced posts after a long time and I take the blame for taking the thread in a direction that didn't quite converge. I'm quite clear on what is a speed change and what is not. And I have looked at the MLV clip also (interesting but nothing that defies the laws of physics). Since my posts tend to confuse everyone, I prefer to stay mum and let you guys continue the discussion.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Apr 2007, 02:48

for examples on nadai changes in korvais of tani and kalpanaswaras pl. check out http://korvai.org/book.html. The first example has Sri. Karaikkudi Mani saying the kOrvai as konakkol - you have the mridangam itself used as a metronome (1 beat per akshara) that is invariant throught. You can then see how the # of syllables per akshara (of constant time duration) changes across the nadai switches. You also have the some other examples where this type of naDai switch happens in kalpana swaras (the second example - siddhi vinayakam example towards the tail-end).

I was under the mistaken impression that for korvais in tanis, they kept the sub-beat interval same i.e. 3b, even though i have heard 3a type of nadai switches in cm concerts, in kalpana swaras, and in dance jathis. I had actually originally thought it was method 3a only for usage in korvais of tanis, but later on got confused and switched to thinking it is 3b

. Mridangam concepts are still very much a magic to me.

Arun

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 18 Apr 2007, 04:08

Brother-member, sdbala, dear, Your posts are not at all confusive to me. Then, why do you deprive me of your nice posts of Talaprastara, leave alone others. Donâ€™t do that, please! amsharma.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 18 Apr 2007, 07:48

Dear Sharmaji,
I will certainly continue to post in Talaprastara. There are a few doubts I have but I would attempt to answer them myself before bringing it to you.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 18 Apr 2007, 08:11

Arun,
Do you have an example or clips of nadai change where the sub-unit duration is kept constant and yet you can feel the speed change? I'm not asking for one where just the duration of an avarthanam has changed. I'm looking for clips where the duration of the avarthanam has changed keeping the sub-unit length same. This is for my own learning and not to spark any debate.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Apr 2007, 08:36

sbala, the MLV Chandrachude is one such thing you are looking for. See if it fits what you are looking for. Arun, if you have other examples, please share as well.

sr_iyer · Post by **sr_iyer** » 18 Apr 2007, 09:02

Dear DrS,

This is further to your suggestion to sbala of a demo in EkatAla - the following basic demo clip (put together in somewhat of a hurry) seeks to show a transition from caturas'ra to tis'ra and back to caturas'ra without changing the Avartana duration and the kriyA duration.

Demo can be downloaded from http://www.rogepost.com/n/4299032910

More details:

0:00 to 0:16 Four Avartanas of Eka tAla (without the alankAra) that have automated beeps @ 1 second that continue into the alankAra. (Have tried to use a different sound for the clap or sas'abda kriyA)

0:16 first kAla caturas'ra naDai of Eka tALa alankAra starts

0:56 Second kAla caturas'ra naDai starts (Usually the practice is to repeat this twice, but the demo has one round since that is sufficient to turn around to the samam)

1:16 tis'ra naDai starts (3 iterations brings it back to samam)

1:56 third kAla caturas'ra naDai starts (Usually the practice is to repeat this four times, but the demo has two rounds since that is sufficient to turn around to the samam)

2:16 first kAla caturas'ra naDai reverted to.

The tis'ram formation in varNam is similar - in case of 6 Avartana pUrvAnga, the tis'ram does not need repetition (as needed in the above case).

The alignment to tALa would fall into place without issues since every third note in tis'ra would fall on a clap or count. By changing the emphasis to musical clusters, a cross rhythmic effect can be created.

I thought this may help to illustrate the idea easily, and also may clarify certain aspects further to your following comments quoted

Your post to sbala:

You said naDe change within a tALa- outer beat remains constant. I asked you to kindly demonstrate this naDe change within the same tALa of any alankARa. You could not do it and that is fine. I didnt think it would be possible (For anyone). In this case you only keep subunit length same and cannot I repeat Cannot keep outer beat of constant length.

Your post to me:

All that is within one Avarta/beat of a tALa in one naDe (say caturaSra) should also fall within one Avarta of the same in another naDe (Say triSra). So SRGM from caturaSra naDe should be accommmodated withing one beat of triSra naDe as well (God knows how one could do that). Otherwise we cannot maintain tALa is constant as everything else falls out of place

Thanks.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 18 Apr 2007, 09:53

VK,
I have listened to the MLV clip. Thanks. It was nice. Some more examples would be welcome.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 18 Apr 2007, 10:40

SR_Iyer,
Without getting in the way of what you are trying to communicate, I just want to say you have an amazing voice.

sr_iyer · Post by **sr_iyer** » 18 Apr 2007, 13:59

Dear sbala,

Thank you for your kind comments.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Apr 2007, 20:25

sbala wrote:Arun,
Do you have an example or clips of nadai change where the sub-unit duration is kept constant and yet you can feel the speed change? I'm not asking for one where just the duration of an avarthanam has changed. I'm looking for clips where the duration of the avarthanam has changed keeping the sub-unit length same. This is for my own learning and not to spark any debate.

I dont have any examples of that kind. It is funny that during the discussion on the other thread, i had mistakenly thought this (same sub-unit duration) was what was done more often as in tani.

How about this? Suppose this:
1. A singer sings a korvai/pattern-set of kalapanaswaras with the same time spacing of swaras (not even kalaam switch).
2. The pattern-set internally has a few iterations and in each iteration the swaras are musically grouped in sets of 4, 5 , 6 etc.
3. AND the mridangists matches the swaras in a simple way according to the music i.e. he plays the same pattern of ta-ka-di-mi for grouping of 4, ta-ka-ta-ki-ta for 5 etc.

Then even though irrespective of the akshara spacing (which is temporarily irrelevant now to listener?), it would like a gati switch with same sub-interval - wouldnt it?

To illustrate a bit more, Consider the following (simplistic and very contrived) example of such a pattern. Assume suddha-dhanyasi, rupaka tala and swaras are rendered in third speed catusra gati (4 swaras per akshara). It starts with grouping of 5, followed by of 6 and followed by of 7:

S G S G M- G M G M P- M P M P N- P N P N S*- (4*5= 20)
S , G S G M- G , M G M P- M , P M P N- P , N P N S*- (4*6 = 24)
S , G , S G M- G , M , G M P- M , P , M P N- P , N , P N S* (4*7 =28)

(note: , is course for pause/dhIrga, and - suffix is used to indicate musical phrasing split)

There are 20+24+28 = 72 "sub-units", and in our second speed catusra gati, would be 18 aksharas or 6 cycles of rUpaka cApu

Now if the mrigangist does pattersn of 5 (ta-ka-ta-ki-Ta) for the first part followed by a pause, patterns of 6 (ta-ka-ta-ka-di-mi???) for second and (ta-ki-Ta-ta-ka-di-mi) for the third part, would it seem like a gati/naDai switch of 3b type? Forget the fact that the akshara spacing is still one beat per 4 sub-unit- the melody is not in patterns of 4 sub-units, and neither is the percussion. Does it matter what the akshara spacing is during this?

I would think this type of musical phrase grouping is also done in kutcheris (albeit more complex patterns, and of course with more sophisticated matching percussive patterns) - would i be right?

Arun

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 18 Apr 2007, 22:26

Arun,
While I'm not qualified to comment on this, there is a good probability that kanda nadai or trisra nadai sollu or swara pattern can be misinterpreted by a listener as an actual change in gathi.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Apr 2007, 22:53

bala my (indirect and sort of controversial) point is to ask is it really a misinterpretation? All relevant musical/aural indicators during the phrase would be point at a different internal beat/rhythm of the piece - which is gati. Akshara spacing is important when you get back to the main song which is in catusra gati - but what musical purpose does it serve during this pattern except to play a role in determining where the entire pattern (just like korvai of tani) should end (i.e. to sync up with the main song)?

Of course i realize the implications if you extropolate this i.e any time use these patterns even fleetingly are we really changing gati? Doesnt that make less sense etc. etc.?

:) But i find the question interesting - if everything that is perceivable to the ear points at one gati which is different from the akshara spacing - then isnt the akshara spacing not really important to determine the "gait of the song". Isnt this why some say gati is internal beat?

Arun

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 18 Apr 2007, 23:17

Arun,
I'm right now in a state of bliss listening to SS_Iyer's link of MDR and his own eka thala alankaram. I don't want to return to the discussion and generate a lot of heat again. I have given my opinions and I see no reason to change. But if you insist, your example is not very different from a batsman getting deceived by a slower ball

The fact the batsman got deceived doesn't make the ball faster. The speed of the ball is what is reported on the TV after each delivery. We can keep insisting it's a faster ball and spoon catches to short mid wicket or short cover.

Btw, thanks for the korvai link. It's fantastic.

SS_Iyer - If possible , could you upload or email some other renditions of yours? A nadai change of a 3b variety would help but I would like to hear some varna/krithi/aalapanai renditions of yours.

kalgada78 · Post by **kalgada78** » 18 Apr 2007, 23:32

sbala wrote:SR_Iyer,
Without getting in the way of what you are trying to communicate, I just want to say you have an amazing voice.

SR_Iyer,you have a very good voice!Please share any of your renderings with us.

Sarma.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Apr 2007, 23:40

i dont understand why you thought that example was some sort of a proof that went against your ideas. All i have been trying to do is present both sides of the issue. Wasnt trying to convince anyone. Just offering food for thought - for anyone interested.

To me (i.e IMO) there are 2 ways of showing gati , and gati when seen as gait literally is somewhat orthogonal to akshara spacing particular that of an entire song. Hence both 3a and 3b are quite valid in showing gati if we just confine ourselves to knowing about the different dynamics of the different gatis. Now what is "official", what must be invariant etc. IMO those are academic issues, and can be irrelevant considering how much theory of our music and the rules it laid out have changed over time (hence i didnt participate in any of those specific parts of the discussion)

Arun

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Apr 2007, 23:50

You may sing or play whatever musical or rhythmic groupings you like over any nadai you choose.

if this is what was meant and I have not misunderstood... you are wrong.

The groupings does not change the nadai.

Takita takita takita takita takadimi fits a half cycle of adi talam nicely. Doesn't make the first three 'words' tisra nadai.

As has already commented somewhere; four threes are the same as three fours: you can four takitas or three takadimis to rupaka talam: it is still chatusra nadai.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Apr 2007, 00:07

nick - agreed i mentioned "Of course i realize the implications if you extropolate this ..." because of this.

My (albeit controversial) point is gati in its true sense refers to (aural) gait, And a gait of 123 123 123, ... is different to that of 1234 1234 1234 (particularly if the percussive accompaniment matches it), irrespective of time of each 123 == time of each 1234 i.e. as in 3a, or that time of 123/1234 = 3/4 as 3b.

Arun

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 19 Apr 2007, 01:51

nick H wrote:Takita takita takita takadimi fits a half cycle of adi talam nicely.

Dear brother-member, nick H, The total of the above is arriving at 13 (half less than Sivapalathalam, of course) only. How does it fit in the half-cycle of Adi-tala I am unable to digest it. Would you please clarify? amsharma.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 19 Apr 2007, 02:17

sr_iyer wrote:The latter (mis'ramukhi, pancamukhi etc) has been employed in pallavis by eminent vidvAns.

Dear brother-member, sr_iyer, Unlike the most indisciplined 'mishramukhi' the real 'panchamukhi' is rendered strictly according to the rules as per Late Adibhatla Narayana das of Vizianagaram and also as per Chi.Sadgurucharan, Staff Artist-Mridangam, All India Radio, Vijayawada. Please note. amsharma.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 19 Apr 2007, 07:30

sbala wrote:kanda nadai or trisra nadai sollu or swara pattern can be misinterpreted by a listener as an actual change in gathi.

Dear brother-member, sbala, I hope you mean Khanda-jati or Trisra-jati sollu or Swara pattern can be misinterpreted by a listener as an actual change in Gathi. Jati means Mridanga-jati like takita - takadhimi - tadhiginata etc. and Jaati means Trisra-jaati-laghu of 3 Kriyas, Chaturashra-jaati-laghu of 4 Kriyas etc. The misuse of the technical terms confuse the people. Unfortunately, even the great stalwarts misuse them in the absence of the proper Lakshana-jnanam. Many of them don't even care to know them. Can't help! amsharma.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 19 Apr 2007, 08:06

Arun - I did not think it was a proof against my ideas. Even if it were, I don't mind being disproved. I'm just a beginner trying to get things clear in my mind. You intent is certainly laudable.