Goodbye to an old friend

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
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jayaram
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6634553.stm
Feeling a bit sad to see an old friend on his way out...
Currys to eject audio cassettes

The digital world has finally caught up with the humble audio cassette as electrical retailer Currys announced it will stop stocking them.
Last year Currys sold just 100,000 tapes compared with 83 million in 1989.

The store will also phase out tape decks, which are currently available in less than 5% of audio equipment.

Currys said that the tape was no longer able to compete with MP3 players - some of which store the equivalent albums as 1,500 cassettes.

Mix tape nostalgia

The recordable tape was introduced in Europe in 1963 by Philips.

It will be missed by anyone who has spent a wet weekend making a "mix tape" for a loved one.

"I remember the tape with some fondness. The hours spent putting together compilation tapes and the all-too-familiar experience of finding that your deck had chewed your tape, will resonate with many now in their thirties and forties," said Peter Keenan, managing director of Currys.

"For today's MP3 generation, it's just a few clicks of the mouse to achieve what's arguably a better outcome," he added.

The death-knell for pre-recorded tapes was sounded in the 1990s when record companies started phasing them out as CD sales overtook them.

The audio cassette has been a remarkably durable format and it will live on for a while longer. It is estimated that there are 500 million tapes still in circulation.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I think that the 500 million number worldwide is a low estimate.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Jayaram,
I have a host of those old friends with me, and I bet you do too. Making way for new CD friends doesen't mean you forget the old ones. Look at the way we still get treasures from our older friends spool to spools :)

mohan
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Post by mohan »

lol - I just bought a tape recorder a couple of days ago since a lot of students still bring cassettes to music class.

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

1973
One of my cousins in bangalore who came to my native place on a hoilday pompously carried around a tape player - flat sleeping model- not the present day ones which stand upright.

It had fancy buttons for Chrome tapes , Fe Tapes etc.
He wouldnt allow us to touch it but on his return , forgot to take it back.The period of 10 days , before which we could find someone else travelling to Bangalore- was Heavenly.
Those ten days I kept playing the only tape in my collection, nonstop.It was a gift from an uncle in the US and I never had a player to play it !

Back home I still have the three thousand and odd tapes neatly kept in specially designed racks.My Dad had the habit of inserting rare photographs of the artist on top of the sleeves provided by the Company.With the result that it is more like a Photo exhibition today.
He used to write his own inlay cards even-and over thirty years , he used the same brand of card board , same pen and the same brand of ink.
Maybe someday I will scan a set to show how it all looks like.

He was never happy with the load with which the 5 screws were fastened and would loosen them up and tighten them again with just that right amount of load.

We had a separate player to wind and unwind tapes before playing on the main player-just to loosen them up.He even had a contraption built , like a Buddhist monks meditation wheel(wonder if that is the correct term).
He would stick one of the two slots of the tape to this contraption and keep spinning it manually-like holding a pencil vertically and moving it in a circular mode.Strangely it used to take only a minute or so to wind up a 60 mt tape.


And now with all this technology and changed priorities for other members in the family, We are struggling to maintain them in a Respectful mode, befitting the labour that went into it.
Someday If I do get very rich and can afford a bungalow , I should be showcasing them , like in a museum.

There is a romance attached to the tape that is beyond words.

mohan
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Post by mohan »

coolkarni wrote:1973
One of my cousins in bangalore who came to my native place on a hoilday pompously carried around a tape player - flat sleeping model- not the present day ones which stand upright.
The one I bought last week the Sony TCM939 is simple flat model:
Image.
I probably have a dozen old tape recorders in my place - can set up a Navaratri kolu of these devices! Most of them are broken due to the constant overuse and rewinding, etc. Good idea to have a dedicated rewinding device. I know you could buy those for VHS Video cassettes but didn't realise you could get audio cassette rewinders as well.

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

Old ,Overused, broken taperecorders were remodelled for this purpose.
India is a great place for recycling.Last week at 4 30 am at Chennai Central , I saw a porter , who was sleeping in the main hall (using newspapers as a mat) suddenly wake up on arrival of a train and rush.
And just as I was wondering who will clean up the place, came a tiny tot , folding all the stray papers, bundling them and running to her mother.
It was nice to see that nothing goes waste.

rajumds
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16

Post by rajumds »

I had spent quite a few sunday afternoons opening up the tape recorder & changing the belt. I still remeber the satisfaction & a sense of achievement when the recorder plays at the right speed after belt change ( I used to change atleast 3 -4 belts before I get the right speed). The test run will always be with a MS cassette where she just hums before starting the dhayana sloka. The tone of the hum used to be indicator of the right fit of the belt.

jayaram
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

The ease by which we can acquire a new music track today, while a good thing on the one hand - somehow I feel it's taken away the satisfaction that one gets on getting a precious tape with some difficulty. I can still remember the 5-hour drive from Pittsburgh to New Jersey to pick up a handful of tapes of old masters from a friend who was visiting from India.

Gosh, I am already sounding like an oldie!
:)

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

There are no oldies around
If they 'old on to music
No matter how old or new
The machine that plays it

Music only rejuvenates
There is no room for sighs
Except in wonder and awe
Of the magic it creates...
Last edited by arasi on 09 May 2007, 19:56, edited 1 time in total.

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

You indeed are an Arasi...
(now what ragam can we sing these words to? :))

Sundara Rajan
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Post by Sundara Rajan »

It may be easy for youngsters to change to the latest gadgets, but only recently have I learned to download carnatic music available in MP3 format on the net directly into CDs. I too have about 100+ hours of concerts of late 1950's in spool tapes, copied from friends who came here later. My spool tape recorder wore out after decades of use. Luckily I had transferred most of my favorites into cassette tapes by then. I had to make my own wooden shelf to store/display my 1000+ vocal and 700+ instrumental cassettes! My children make fun of me that I still live in the 20th century, since I wouldn't adapt to MP3 recorders/players that would reduce the storage space considerably. I am not sure if I would then have the ease and convenience of picking the one song by one artist at will to listen to , as I could now with the cassette or the CD. Conversion of that many cassttes into MP3 also may take a long time since all the cassetes will have to be played once. Am I corrrect ?

ksrimech
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Post by ksrimech »

jayaram wrote:You indeed are an Arasi...
(now what ragam can we sing these words to? :))
bEgaDa

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

Conversion of that many cassttes into MP3 also may take a long time since all the cassetes will have to be played once. Am I corrrect ?
Conversion of my 3000 odd tapes took me Eight long years.
Running the tape in real time through the week and correcting/normalising/converting to mp3/burning over the weekend.
As a matter of fact, a suitcase full of audio tapes is Heavier than a suitcase full of anything else in the world-including stones or rock bits.Try it for yourself.

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

How many cassettes can a suitcase take
And how many men would care to lift it?
CDs are easy, say the youth, and ask--
Why carry one when they have wheels?

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Arasi,
You're a step behind: a single DVD can hold songs from several CDs and is lighter than the CDs....!

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

Have to admit that cassette tape, for me, was a horrible thing that came in between LPs and CDs. Hard to find tracks, easy to jam, even the most expensive decks not immune to being tied in knots.

True, it made for a compact recording machine, I guess that was its merit.

I bought a Sony Walkman Pro --- expensive, excellent quality recording and playback a few years ago. Then, within a few months I had a Mini-Disc machine and never touched the walkman again.

I don't think Mini-Disc has really caught on in india? Maybe MP3 hard-disc or solid state has made it redundant now (how fast things change).

mohan
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Post by mohan »

The Sony minidisc recorders are excellent devices but sadly did not take off that well, due to MP3 recorders and the like.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

i have a minidisc recorder for recording lessons. Although i have not used it as much as I want to, one of the best features it has (the reason why i bought it for cm class) is that you can split a recording - say a song that you are learning in a class into sub-tracks at a press of button. The you play that track repeatedly or simply play everything (the whole song) together "gapless".

This allows me to isolate one sangati and play it repeatedy till it sticks to my aging brain. You can also easily combine tracks at any time. In other words, track marks can be easily manipulated as often as you want.

mp3 players are finally getting to true gapless playback - i dont know of a mp3 recorder which allows you manipulate tracks easily (without requiring transfer to a computer) as well as gapless playback. MP3 format is such that I think this is hard to do on the device itself.

The downside with minidisc recorders are
(a) they are freaking expensive inspite of low popularity - Sony just doesnt get it). This applies to both recorders as well minidisc media.
(b) until recently (latest Sony model $300 on Amazon!) transfer to computers were a massive pain with supposedly faulty software, and stupid restrictions on even your own recordings - Yes, Sony really doesnt get it. But they are also in the recording industry and so that explains everything :)
(c) I think preserving track-marks once you get to computer is separate pain.

But I still love my minidisc - because I bought it used (so didnt have to shell out a lot of bucks), and i dont transfer much to the computer - thanks to my laziness.

Arun

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

My two minidisc portables were (well, one still is) Sharp rather than Sony. I've lost track of the MD market, and I don't know if those few companies, apart from Sony, are still in it.

Yes, transfer to PC was real time :(.

Even better for the music student, of course, is the PC with some sound editing software. Splitting tracks on MD is nice, but when you can actually "see" the beats and stresses on the screen it is a dream --- and you can loop without loosing the talam. Poor though I always claim my laya to be, it is amazing how anoying a "short" beat can be in a loop.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Sharp and Sony i think are still the only 2 companies making portable ones. The new Sony model was only out last year and so they are still in it. The minidisc I believe is fairly popular in Japan, among audiophiles and amateur/semi-pro muscians. The top recording quality of minidic format, and what even the tiny recorders can achieve is supposedly very very good (assuming you have a good mic of course).

I agree that doing track-marks on the device itself is "approximate" and wouldnt work as well if one wants to align against precise spots (as in tala). For my purposes, it is much quicker and convenient to do it on the recorder itself, than having to first transfer to computer and also having to always have a computer nearby for the iterative learning process :)

Arun

mohan
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Post by mohan »

On my wish list is a high-end portable recorder. Either the Edirol/Roland one: http://www.edirol.net/products/en/R-09/

or the Korg one: http://www.korg.com/gear/info.asp?A_PROD_NO=MR1

Any opinions on these?

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

I can really imagine those with wonderful archive shelves full of their own recordings could not fail to love the cassette.

For me (although long before my encounter with carnatic) my greatest affection is for the vinyl LP. The tape was something to play in the car, and a gap-filler until the CD came along. Even the CD, at first, seemed coldly technological, with its small picture, and its relative immunity to damage. But, I think it is winning a place in my heart now!

Above all, the Mini Disc gave us recording without hiss! Oh bliss! It still has its problems... overload in digital recording is disastrous. But my initial recorder+mic budget must have been over £200 (over Rs.16,000), so a far cry from pressing record on one of those little cassette recorders and pushing it near to the teacher!

But, oh! All that loosing the place on the tape, and getting side A and B confused, and loosing something valuable. No... Personally, I have no affection for the cassette.

As to the pro/high portable recorders... last time I looked they were very expensive. Probably MD is better value except for the real pro. Again, I haven't looked for a while, but the 'new' 1Gb mini-discs even, I think, allow uncompressed recording.

But they still require a deep pocket, and I hate Sony's design obsession with tiny buttons. I don't have a six-month-old's fingers!

Oh.... and the most romantic media of all time is still reel tape, and the wonderful machines that it plays on :D

gn.sn42
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Post by gn.sn42 »

mohan wrote:On my wish list is a high-end portable recorder. Either the Edirol/Roland one: http://www.edirol.net/products/en/R-09/

or the Korg one: http://www.korg.com/gear/info.asp?A_PROD_NO=MR1

Any opinions on these?
The Edirol R09 is an excellent recorder, and I have heard good things about the M-Audio recorder, but I would recommend the Zoom H4, which is a bit larger but has lots of cool features - it can emulate famous microphones, it can serve as a USB audio interface for a computer, and its frequency range is impressive.

Zoom's web site: http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/h4/

M-Audio web site: http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/M ... -main.html


Mark Nelson's reviews are detailed and have audio samples to help you compare products:

Edirol R09: http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2006/08 ... eview.html

Zoom H4:
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2007/02 ... order.html

M-Audio recorder:
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/11 ... eview.html

Good luck!

mohan
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Post by mohan »

Thanks - I just went to a store and saw the 20GB Korg MR1 which was pretty cool but didn't have a built-in mic. The guy in the shop also mentioned the Zoom model which was not in stock. That has SD cards as the recording media

gn.sn42
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:56

Post by gn.sn42 »

mohan, I should also mention that the Zoom H4 has XLR and 1/4 inputs as well as built-in mics. It's also priced a good 30% less than the Edirol. Try to check it out.

mohan
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Post by mohan »

GNSN I have been reading some other reviews about the Zoom H4 and a few them mention it is cheaply manufactured, the joystick is flimsy and it has a plastic feel to it. There is a Zoom H2 which has been just released a few months ago which may be a bit better.

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

Just to get back to the tape recorder for a sec (remember our old friend?) - the big plus is how easily you can rewind a few steps if you wanted to listen to a particular sangati etc. Not sure how this can be done using a CD (sans a computer).

I have friend in New York with whom I have exchanged hundreds of tapes. Even today he finds it hard to make the switch to CDs (forget MP3!). Personally, while the advantage of MP3 downloads etc. is great, I still find it more convenient to play my tapes. The CD feels too sanitized, studio-ish, etc. if you understand what I mean. Oh well...

MaheshS
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Post by MaheshS »

After converting all of 500 tapes I unfortunately binned the lot. I just couldnt keep on carrying them around whenever I moved places. I did send a few hundred to a couple of people in the USA who were interested. I touted a bit on the net to try and find people who'd have it. It was just logically daft for me to send 500 tapes across to Australia [2 interested persons] or USA [a few]. All of them only wanted specific tapes etc etc. Please note, that I did not ask for money, as long as they took care of the postage I was fine. But I just didn't have the time separating tapes according to each person's list, so I regretfully binned the lot.

I now have a 60GB iAudio player that I carry around all over the place. It has a MIC in, so I can just plug it into any audio source and record dierctly to the player. And the other thing is, it doesn't need any annoyign software like iTunes. It just appears as an external hard drive, you just copy and paste to it and voila there it is!!!

The only dis-advanatge to me having this is, say I'm listening to MDR singing Sri Subramanyaya Namasthe, once that's finished instead of carrying on listening to the rest of the concert, my un-steady mind wonders how GNB intreprets the same Kambodhi. Bang, now I'm on to GNB's version. Then some other track will come to mind, so I end up fiddling with it all the time instead or carrying on with one concert. Now I've got about 50 odd half-listened concerts!!! With tapes you were just stuck instead of going thro the FF routine which is a pain.

jayaram
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

Ah, moving! I have moved countries 4 times in the last 13 years. And lugging my fairly huge tape collection (~3000) has not been easy. Finally I gave up, and left most of my tapes with my brother in Australia. Hopefully one day I will be able to convert them all to digital format.

question: will these tapes get spoilt if they are not played on a regular basis?

Mahesh - if you still have any tapes left, you can bin them with me!

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

jayaram - yes tapes can get spoilt if idle, but how quickly may depend on where they are stored (as always humidity can play havoc. So can hot temps).

Also in many CD players you can rewind/FF like tapes, although i am sure it is used that much. In tapes that is the ONLY way you can get to a song (besides of course listening to all the intervening ones).

IMO, while tapes were a big step over LPs in terms of specific conveniences (i.e. easy recording). However, they suffered from a lot of deficiencies: hiss, no "random access" - which of course meant rewind, ff - which of course reduces their lifetime, also problems where older tapes get stuck, start to drag etc. etc. Sometimes the player head can ruin a tape - so play your precious tape on your friends player and both of you watch in horror as the tape whirs but doesnt play and the player wont eject :)

But still in its prime, it scored big points just on the easy recording capabilities. CDs were more a replacement for LPs when they come out. CD-RWs are better but still does not have the easy recording capabilities of a cassette. I think minidisc has always had everything tape has to offer (except the most crucial one - cost!) and more: easy recording capability,better recording capability, random access, and a (more) stable medium. However, they are priced way too high, and i guess were not intended to cover all the target market of cassettes. Otherwise they could have made a better story.

The big hard-drive players - they are great, and can offer all the recording conveniences, except a super reliable, stable medium. They cannot serve as your only data store because hard-drives are notorious in having limited life. If you have gigabytes of music and they are all only in hard-drives (portable or computer), better back them up on CDs or DVDs. Otherwise some-day you would be shedding a lot of tears. Having a backup also on some computer helps but ultimately it still is an Achilles heel. The drives on the computer are also susceptible to nasty viruses (on some OS') which can render the data inaccessible in a heartbeat.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 11 May 2007, 19:47, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

this zoom h-4 seems like a better deal than the minidisc recorders. Same price on Amazon (with a 2GB SD) and way more features. Can one create gapless tracks on it?

Arun

vinayo
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Post by vinayo »

How things change! In 1973 I bought my first (philips) cassette tape recorder for 100 DM in Koln and paid Rs 250 customs duty at the Bombay airport. Now after retirement I have been able to digitise all my tapes recorded using that machine.

gn.sn42
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:56

Post by gn.sn42 »

mohan, the plastic buttons are indeed fiddly - overall, though, I like the H4. The H2 sounds like a nice product (smaller, cheaper) - let us know what you think of the various products out there!

arunk, re gapless tracks: the H4 is not primarily a player. To play back files, the interface is a little clunky, and I don't think it's very convenient. In theory, you can mark off a section of your track and repeat that, or play the whole track, or play all tracks in a gapless way. It's easiest to play everything without a break - that way, you deal with the interface just once. Yes, you can mark off sangatis and so on, but the interface is irritating. I prefer to upload the files to a computer soon (it also frees up the SD card for recording). The USB interface is very clean - it shows up as an external drive with no software required.

Have you thought about designing a user interface for an MP3 player - or for online or PC-based music software? Seriously - you have spectacular software skills, and know a thing or two about music. The world needs better music software.

ksrimech
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Post by ksrimech »

jayaram wrote:lugging my fairly huge tape collection (~3000) has not been easy.
Jayaram - My heart skipped a beat when I saw that number 3000. I'm not surprised all of you have a tuf time with them. I'm still struggling to find what to do with my 500 or so. If 500 itself is so difficult, then 3000. appappA! I can't even imagine. But still any day I would support digital audio and IPod. Bad thing is that I don't want to give the cassettes away to people. As we say in tamizh, kOdukka manasE varala!

arunk
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Post by arunk »

thanks gn.sn42 - perhaps you are being kind. I do well with "functional software" but putting something that can "wow" someone on looks - that factor almost always eludes me. One needs to know about visual graphics for that - i envy people who have that in them.

What do you find lacking in current music software? I find them ok but maybe not a easy and readymade match for carnatic music (for catalog stuff).

Arun

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

I can remember the many hours spent copying and documenting hundreds of tapes as I built up my collection. And to think all that work is now sitting in an attic somewhere...

All this talk about tapes and CDs brings to mind an incident:
There was this elderly gentleman in the US with whom I used to share my interest in CM. One day he gave me a boxful of tapes - when I asked him whether it would be ok if I took a few days to copy them, he told me "Don't worry, take the whole lot. I may not have much time left, what's the point of keeping them? And if I need to listen to any of the music I can always borrow from you."

Gave me a new perspective, and helped me slow down on my tape collecting obsession...

It may have been Manakkal who made this offhand remark when he was here last year: 'Why do you people always want to record music? Just listen to it live and then forget about it!'

Are we creating a lot of 'carbon footprint' (to use the new cliche term) by our actions?

ksrimech
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Post by ksrimech »

jayaram wrote:It may have been Manakkal who made this offhand remark when he was here last year: 'Why do you people always want to record music? Just listen to it live and then forget about it!'
Good music can never be forgotten. This includes the great vidvAn himself. Good music always stays in my memory. I constantly relish the fact to have the ears to hear such wonderful music.

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

Good music can never be forgotten.
Agreed. The 'forget about it' wasn't meant in the literal sense, of course. We can listen to the music in our mind's ear, as it were.

Social commentators tell us that we read less and less today, with the result that we are slowly losing the ability to imagine. We are fed too much in audio/video form, and don't savor silence that much any more.

gn.sn42
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Post by gn.sn42 »

arunk wrote:thanks gn.sn42 - perhaps you are being kind. I do well with "functional software" but putting something that can "wow" someone on looks - that factor almost always eludes me. One needs to know about visual graphics for that - i envy people who have that in them.

What do you find lacking in current music software? I find them ok but maybe not a easy and readymade match for carnatic music (for catalog stuff).

Arun
arunk,
I used the word "user interface" incorrectly - most of what I'm looking for would be what you call "functional software". Of course, good visual graphics are always welcome.

I've created a new topic to discuss this:
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2813

I'd love to have you take this up.

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