Lec dem by shri sunder and shri J Balaji

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 20 May 2007, 15:15

There was a lec dem at raga sudha hall today on the topic : "learning to appreciate taniavartanam". It was a joint session with shri sunder (Shri DKJ's disciple) and Mannarkoil Shri J. Balaji handling it. I must say JB sir was at his best. The way he explained the differences between kandam nadai and misra nadai, why kanda korappus are not played in concerts often, how one should play for chowka kala kritis, the differences bewteen the tanjur and the pudukottai banis etc etc.... only go to prove his vidwat. His tani spoke volumes of his talent and dedication to the art. Overall, a morning well spent I should say. Thank you JB sir for enlightening me.
-bhaktha

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 20 May 2007, 16:36

Dear Baktha,

Actually, I wanted to attend but missed it due to other works.... Do you have any recording...

Hope, our member srI j.bAlAji uploads it soon...

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 20 May 2007, 16:42

It was a very engaging lecdem, devoid of any nostalgia trips. Both the artistes were very professional and made sure they did justice to the topic in the limited time.

I hope the organisers have a sequel with more depth on mohra - korvais. Some of the lessons that JB sir has uploaded here could be demonstrated. Or they could take up some sample tanis and accompaniments of great masters and explain the nuances. As bhakta said, a morning well spent indeed

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 May 2007, 17:03

You were there, sbala? I either didn't see or recognise you, in which case I apologise profusely <Blush>. I was a bit sleepy.

It was a very good morning. A good percentage of it was in English, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 20 May 2007, 17:26

Nick,
I did see you but had to rush to the library after the lecdem.

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 20 May 2007, 19:04

Mr.Bhakta and Erode Nagarajan

Bhakta thank you very much for the kind review about the programme. though the subject is very vast it was a difficult task for me in packing it in about 1 and 1/2 hours time. The response from the audience was really encouraging with Raga Sudha almost full and none of the audience stirred out till the end. Could see a few artistes as well. One prominent was Nisha Rajagopal and other popular rasikas shooting questions one after another and making the session very interesting. Hope the session was educative and make you and other rasikas appreciate the beauty of mridangam and of course Tani Avartanam

Erode Nagarajan Sir, the recording was done by Dr.Sundar as part of Music Forum and it is for archival purposes and as such I cannot upload them. If you need a personal copy may be Dr.Sundar might give you.

Could See Bala and Nick enjoying and involving themselves.
Thanks for the review and responses.

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 20 May 2007, 20:59

The pleasure is mine JB sir.
@ Nagaraj sir,
I did not record it. But as JB sir says, you can probably get it from Dr. Sundar.
-bhaktha

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 21 May 2007, 10:37

i missed another of those things... huh! why should all these happen only on sunday mornings?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 May 2007, 09:14

Balaji, can you please approach Dr. Sundar on our behalf and see if he will share the recording with us? We can work out the logistics if he is willing. I am hopeful that he will understand that this kind of great material is best archived by sharing it with a wider community.

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 29 May 2007, 19:53

Could someone who attended or, maybe possibly Sri Balaji himself explain why Kandam Korrapu aren't played in concerts?

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 29 May 2007, 20:39

As far as I understood, it is not possible to do the final korappu if you play Khanda koraippu.

For eg, In Adi 2 kalai,
1. In the first iteration, you play for 15 beats
2. In the second iteration, 7.5 beats
3. In the 3rd iteration, 3.75 beats

You cannot reduce it further.

Whereas if you take Misra Koraippu
1. First iteration, you play for 14 beats
2. 2nd iteration - 7 beats
3. 3rd iteration - 3.5 beats
4. 4th iteration - 1.75 beats

Maybe, someone more knowledgeable can chip in with Sankirnam and Chaturasra and correct any mistakes I might have made

Mangalam Krishna · Post by **Mangalam Krishna** » 29 May 2007, 21:31

That must have been wonderful by Shri J Balaji. Request him to explore the possibility of sharing this with Mumbai Rasikas if possible during any of his ensuing trips.

Such a lec-dem would be welcomed by many rasikas, am sure...

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 29 May 2007, 21:47

Dear Bala and mri_fan

The Koraippus are formats where in there is a logical descent of rhythmical patterns. Tamil word "Koraippu" means reducing progressively. Generally the base for all the patterns in Koraippu will be in multiples of 4 that is chatusram and in practice the first Koraippu is Played 8 times the Koraippu pattern. For example if the koraippu pattern is Khandam (5) the it has to be played 8 times 4 times 2 times 1 time and then end with a matching Theermanam in Khandam. And there is also a thumbrule that for any particular tala you have to leave 2 Aksharas or 8 Microcounts or equvivalent to 2 Beat duration of Adi Tala. There is also another Thumbrule for playing Koraippus which is this : - For any tala you have to deduct 1 from the total count. For example Adi Tala deduct 1 from 8 then you get 7 and hence Misra Koraippu is heard on many number of occasions. Another example is for Rupaka Tala 6-1 = 5 so the appropriate Koraippu will be Khandam. For Misra Chaapu 7-1 = 6 and hence Thisra Koraippu is appropriate. For Khanda Chaapu 10-1=9 and hence Sankeerna Koraippu will be appropriate. For each of the above you have to leave two beat equivalent duration (of adi tala ie., 8 subunits in third speed or 2 Aksharas) from samam and start the appropriate Koraippu and you dont have to look back and the whole pattern played 8 times will come back to the starting point or samam. This is the secret of Koraippus. Whichever talam you take deduct 1 from the total count and leave 2 beats from the samam and start the appropriate Koraippu and play it for 8 times 4 times 2 times and 1 time you have an excellent Koraippu for that particular tala. More over Since this gopuchayati pattern of Logical sequence is widely accepted and performed.

so when we play misra koraippu it is first logical and mathematical varieties of :

8 * Misram (Start the first misram after leaving two beats )

Then start the 4 * Misram after leaving one beats

Then start the 2 * Misram after leaving 1/2 beat

Then start the 1 * Misram after leaving 1/4 beat.

This is how logically any Koraippu can be developed and played for a particular tala observing the relevant rules given above.

For Khanda Koraippu in Adi tala the above rule is not being followed. It has got its own logic and it is accepted too.

12 * Khandam is played after leaving 1 beat from Samam

then 6 * Khandam is played after leaving 1/2 beat fm samam

then 3 * Khandam is played after leaving 1/4 from samam

After this the Koraippu ends and the khandam normal pattern starts for 2 beats after leaving 3/4 from samam.

This is how Khanda Koraippu is being played. Though the usual division of 8, 4, 2, 1 is not achieved in Khanda Koraippu yet it can be accepted as a Lakshya Koraippu.

Further doubts can be clarified later.

J.Balaji

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 May 2007, 22:17

Thanks Balaji for the clear and logical explanation of Koraippu. Much appreciated. How nicely each of the koraippu matches itself mathematically to the common talas in use!! Your explanation brought that out quite lucidly.

Music · Post by **Music** » 30 May 2007, 08:04

rbharath wrote:i missed another of those things... huh! why should all these happen only on sunday mornings?

and why should they all happen only in Chennai

Missed such an interesting & informative lecdem

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 May 2007, 11:52

Its odd, perhaps, how non-indians who are not even acquainted with the theory, enjoy the thani, while many Indians decry it. the korraippu, with its onstage drama, is one of the most exiting parts to a newcomer, the reducing sections introducing a tension which can be felt. When a number of percussionists are playing, even the occasional mistake adds to the fun.

Even to the completely initiated, this shortening of the 'gap' at the start of each section during Adi talam misra korraippu gives a very exiting feeling of compression.

There was, I thought, a good turn out for the lecdem. Dr Sundar told me that they are aiming to attract younger people, but perhaps it is a sign of hope for Chennai concerts that the average age of those who came to learn something about thani was quite high.

Foreigners love the thani --- It would be nice if people here did too

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 30 May 2007, 14:31

nick H wrote:the korraippu, with its onstage drama, is one of the most exiting parts to a newcomer

Surely, you mean exciting! The exit happens long before the koraippu;)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 May 2007, 14:46

Oh what a wonderful typo! Well spotted!

Of course, I meant exciting

. Others, sadly, might disagree....

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 30 May 2007, 15:50

Dear Balaji Sir,
I have tried to give my understanding based on your post below. Let me know if I'm wrong.

1. Get the total count of thala (64 for Adi)
2. Decide the type of Koraippu (misra-7 or Khandam-5)
3. Gati (chaturasra by default- 4 counts per beat)
4. Greatest Number that is divisible by both the koraippu(from step 2) and the gati (from step 3) and that is lesser than the count of thala (56 in case of misra and 60 in case of khanda)
5. Maximum number of patterns that can be played = (4)/(2) (ie 56/7=8 in case of misram and 60/5=12 in case of Khandam)
6. Number of beats covered by the patterns=(4)/(3) (ie 56/4=14 for misra and 60/4=15 for khandam)
7. Eduppu of the pattern=Total beats - (6) (16-14=2 beats for misram and 16-15=1 beat for khandam)

Is Sankirna Koraippu also rare for Adi thalam?

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 30 May 2007, 22:05

Member Bala
you have got it absolutely right. This also should clear up some of the basic doubts lingering in the minds of innumerable rasikas. Sankeerna Koraippu is not being played generally for Adi Tala since the eduppu will be far off from samam. Hence the artiste have to give a long silence (generally during koraippus long silences are not given from the point of view of "sustaining the interest of the audience" and also keeping in view the fact that you are going to perform Farans and Mohara after Koraippu and hence it is preferable to have less number of Kaarvais towards the end). Moreover 8 times 9 makes 72 total so we have to leave 6 beats from samam to start for the first time. 6 beats is a long gap. There is another method as we have used for Khandam Koraippu we can have 10 Sankeernams instead of usual 8 Sankeernams and start 1 1/2 beats after samam. This will hold good for only One Kalai. For rendu kalai you have to take 1 1/2 beats after arudi which might take longer silence. Or alternatively add 2 more sankeernams for 2 Kalai and take the first one after leaving 5 beats (12 times) then leave 2 1/2 beats (6 times) and then 1 and 1/4 beats for 3 times. Then normal chatusra patterns or other patterns will continue. Anyway theoretically any koraippu is possible. but it is with the mridangam artiste to make them interesting. Longer the patterns difficult it is to sustain the interest. that is y khandam misram are played i think.

Have i answered ?
J.Balaji

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 31 May 2007, 19:11

Jb Sir,
The long silence of 6 beats was why I thought Sankirna might be rare and you seem to have confirmed the same. I'm also able to understand that we could reduce the silence by changing the number of patterns.

It's really nice to see the strong logical base of each of the components of the tani and we have probably only touched on some aspects of Korvai and Koraippu in the different threads.

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 03 Jun 2007, 09:36

dear members,

the reason for playing a misra kuraippu in Adhi thAlam,

sankIrNa kuraippu in kanda chApu,

thisra kuraippu in misra chApu and

kanda kuraippu in rUpaka chApu is simple.

in these patterns, the number of times one has to play any misram,kandam [the jAthi taken for kuraippu] like that and the number of aksharAs one has to leave from samam are same and it enables an easy going and landing for an artiste or a learner to play are follow...

to play a misram 8times in Adhi thALam we need to begin after 8 aksharAS.

the total ksharAs of 2 Avardhams in Adhi thALm - eight times of misram.

64 - 56 = 8.

" ettu thalli ettu misram, nAlu thalli nAlu misram" like that it goes.

also, thank you JB n baktha, i shall ask Dr. Sundar for the recording.....