US patent of a mridangam ??

anony123mouse · Post by **anony123mouse** » 08 Sep 2007, 00:22

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2007/08/03/stor ... 340300.htm

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Sep 2007, 03:15

That is quite a negative spin on Rohan by the author.

Talking of mridangam patents, here is one whose claims apply to mridangam as well.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... %2F6949702

arulguna · Post by **arulguna** » 08 Sep 2007, 08:05

That is a very interesting article. Hopefully it does not set any precedents where large companies begin applying for patents too!

Is it even possible to get a patent on such things in India? Surely it would be opposed for art's sake.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 08 Sep 2007, 16:41

None of the statements attributed to Rohan seem to be offensive...what's wrong in teaching several percussion instruments - many mrudanga vidwans are proficient in other rhtyhtm instruments...and one wonders why training in vocal music is required for this?

Of course, patenting someone else's idea is unethical but given the lack of balance in the rest of the article, it is difficult to accept the interviewer's allegation at face value...Even if true, it is discredited by the way the article is presented.

It is surprising to see such a lopsidede article coming from an experienced and respected critic.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Sep 2007, 17:55

It should be opposed.

I don't know that Rohan has done much more than use the fixing method usually associated with other types of drum on the mridangam.

ISTR he has done it very nicely and neatly, but I can't see that this is patent-worthy.

But what small mridangam shop in India is going to challenge a US patent?

Come to think of it, what small mridangam shop in India is going to care about it even if it is granted? India is hardly renowned for respecting such things, even if mridangists here did find favour with this method and start requesting it.

Maybe Rohan just wants some recognition for his particular application, rather than to restrict or profit by it? We are not told, as yet. Rohan used to be a regular contributor to online forums, but I haven't 'seen him around' for ages.

Instrument maintenance is, of course, a real problem for those who live far from the workshops of Mylapore. Mridangams require quite a lot of maintenance and overseas mridangists are often left with no choice but to do their own. Even with a supply of heads from India it takes some hours to do the replacement the traditional way, and the quality of the head is not known until the work is finished.

As to American patents: I think attempts have been made to patent many things, from neem tree oil to Basmati rice!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Sep 2007, 18:03

Mods... Please merge the two threads on this subject?

vasanthakokilam... A mridangam does not benefit from having the tension on the head relaxed. Quite the opposite, in fact: it may never sound the same again when re-tightened. The lasting- (sticking-) power of the black circle may be affected, and the kuchti (sp?) or kapi (also sp?) are likely to be displaced or fall out.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Sep 2007, 21:41

Regarding the effect of such patents affecting mridangam shops in India, a couple of things to keep in mind: Prior art can not be patented. So whatever Rohan has done does not affect the existing mridangams. Only thing he has a legal right is to prevent someone else from copying his 'claims' exactly as laid out in the claims section of the patent.

As Vijay and I opined, the article is significantly lop-sided against Rohan so it is hard to know the real and full story. I searched the U.S. Patent office applications and I did not find any ( http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html ). It may still be Rohan's intent to do that or the application may be on the way but the application has not been registered at the U.S. patent office.

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 08 Sep 2007, 22:25

Dear Members
I may be opening up a Pandora's Box but i could not help throwing this open. This type of Mridangam that has been in use in India for the past 10 years or more as I know it pretty well. It was first used by none other than B.Ganapathiraman, a renowned Mridangist in Chennai and son of great vidwan Sethalapathi Balasubramaniam. He did this type screw type of mridangam first 10 years ago or may be before that. I got a mailer last year regarding this type of instrument from Rohan himself and immediately i referred this matter to Ganapathiraman and he himself confided that he has made this type of instrument about 10 years ago. In India we dont have a proper system of Patenting and also poor musicians dont go to the extent of popularising or making known a few things in public. It is enough if their music is brought to the foremost and not through other means of achieving popularity.

Anyway this is for information of the rasikas as i have information first hand from Shri.Ganapathiraman himself.

Mannarkoil J Balaji

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 09 Sep 2007, 01:10

I have also seen Ganapathiraman using the nut-bolt mrudangam, but I didnt know that he invented it himself. Kudos!

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 09 Sep 2007, 07:19

Member Sankirnam
Yes it was done by him long back as i have already mentioned with the help of an artisan called Balaguru. This is nothing new done by Mr.Rohan. May be he has made some small modifications as he has made a remark in his own statement about his own sishya making some modifications to what he has done and claimed as his own. The same logic applies to him also. Shri Ganapathiraman told me that he has the picture in which he has accompanied Bombay Jaishree using this type of mridangam long back in Europe for some concert. I shall try to upload the picture as soon as i get it from him.

People like us who want to do something concrete for the Carnatic Music world through dedicated service and want to give back something to the music world, there are others who want to do the other way around by patenting the mridangam as such and may be make it not available for other mridangists as well ? May be our forefathers and gurus and the founders of great mridangam maestros should have patented even the basic Patterns like Tha, Dhi, Thom and Nam and also the basic lessons so that no one would have been able to play without their copywrighted patterns today if that is what is being intended now in a different sense ?

Mannarkoil Balaji

arulguna · Post by **arulguna** » 09 Sep 2007, 08:09

Seeing as though Rohan used to be a regular contributor to these sort of discussions, perhaps we can get his response to this? Perhaps if someone could drop him an email.

But i also agree with Vijay and Vasanthakokilam, the article's extreme bias needs to be considered before passing any judgements as to the character and intentions of Rohan.

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 09 Sep 2007, 10:29

In jest...if patenting were an issue, what about the Trinity?? I shrudder to imagine as to what would have happened if their sishyas had patented their krithis.
-bhaktha

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Sep 2007, 10:50

Bhaktha

. Continuing in that vein, not sure if Britain or British India had patenting system then, but definitely U.S. did. In fact, one can view online the scanned images of patents issued starting from 1790.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 09 Sep 2007, 13:59

mridhangam wrote:Member Sankirnam
great mridangam maestros should have patented even the basic Patterns like Tha, Dhi, Thom and Nam and also the basic lessons
Mannarkoil Balaji

I agree Balaji sir. Similarly as Bhaktha points out, if songs of the trinity had been patented, the music scene would be miserable! Of course that patents lapse after a while is another matter.

If the product proposed to be patented has been developed by someone else then I do agree that patenting it is not right, even if some minor modifications have been done to try and pass it off as original. I know very little about patents but the basic concept of protecting an innovation from copying is, on paper, a fair one. Unfortunately, in the hands of powerful corporations, it sometimes becomes a tool for exploiting people without the means to afford hefty R&D budgets, not to mention legal fees! India has been at the receiving end on patenting issues on several occasions - Basmati being only the most famous issue. On the other hand, patenting in western countries has little impact on a country like India where copyright and patent violations are rampant..

Considering the above, perhaps patenting in a traditional field like CM is desirable only in the most exceptional circumstances. Looking back on this thread, the proposed attempt to patent Rohan's mrudangam seems avoidable. I hope better counsel prevails on the young mrudanga vidwan.

However I still feel the article would have done better to focus on the real issues (as Balaji sir has done through his posts) than taking unwarranted pot-shots at the artiste.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Sep 2007, 15:03

We know neither the real facts nor Rohan's intentions or motive.

I don't think we should further criticize an individual on speculation, although that leaves the principles we have touched on still open to discussion.

Patent is not the same as copyright.

In America or Europe a composer would be receiving royalties for every performance or recording of their work. BMK or LJ must occasionally feel sad that, by contrast, they do not receive a cheque at the end of the year reflecting the number of times one of their tillanas has been performed!

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 09 Sep 2007, 20:31

nick H wrote:We know neither the real facts nor Rohan's intentions or motive.

I don't think we should further criticize an individual on speculation, although that leaves the principles we have touched on still open to discussion.

Mr.Nick Sir

I have not criticised the individual on speculation. If you go through the article once again you will find that Mr.Rohan has categorically said YES for a question about getting that type of mridangams only from him or through him. That is where I have intruded and also patenting an instrument in this context is absolutely invalid as this type of mridangam has been done more than a decade ago. Since there has been no patenting at that time or may be Mr.Ganapathiraman felt it was not required then. Even now Mr.Ganapathiraman feels the same when i discussed with him recently on this issue.

Mannarkoil J Balaji

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Sep 2007, 21:25

I see cultural differences here. Yes, in India they should get more professional about patenting an invention. In the american culture, patenting comes automatically. I wouldn't read it as someone 'stealing' another's invention. Rohan could have improved on the invention. In any case, I would guess profiting on someone else's idea wouldn't have been the reason as much as establishing his own work, in Rohan's case.
I admit that I have no idea about the details of the infringements, if there are any...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Sep 2007, 00:22

[quote]And does that mean Indian artistes will soon have to buy their mridangams from the U.S.? â€œYes,â€

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 10 Sep 2007, 05:00

nevermind

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 10 Sep 2007, 07:26

M.kid, this is only a suggestion and not an advice....stay away from this subject....just read the posts and come to your own conclusions....keep the opinions to yourself, at least for the time being....do not step into the puddle !!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Sep 2007, 07:53

You can read about Rohan's Mridangam design here: http://www.rohanrhythm.com/downloads/Pe ... eNotes.pdf

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 10 Sep 2007, 10:19

Sam You are right. Mridangamkid is not talking like a 15 year old. May be some elders behind ... anyway this is none of my problem. Moderators pls take care.....

Mannarkoil J Balaji

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 10 Sep 2007, 16:14

Well it was me talking and no one was behind me, but if you don't want me to post my opinion on this the the I won't.

Do you mind if I ask why though. Is it because I'm too young?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Sep 2007, 17:38

Not at all. You would be surprised to know the age range of members here! We come from different parts of the world, have different experiences, and it is the love for CM that brings us together.
In exchanging our thoughts, it helps us to stay with the discussion if we voice them without any distractions: language which is understood by all. Since we are diverse in our backgrounds, slang is not understood by many--it may sound as though we are not serious. When it comes to swear words, even if they came from a higher authority (we are all equal here, so there is no such thing!), they not welcome at all...

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 11 Sep 2007, 00:37

Well I don't think I said a swear word in the post above (now it says "never mind) and I realize the certain abbreviation I used in the "Carnatic musicians performing in an inebriated state" was wrong and will be sure not to use words/abbreviations such as that. As for the slang, I'll try to read what I type more carefully to try to make what I'm saying, more clear so everybody on here can understand. Its just that if I'm doing something wrong or if anyone has a problem with me, I want them to tell me what it is so I can fix it so we won't have a problem anymore.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Sep 2007, 03:38

Great attitude, m.kid! It will help you with your essay writing too, when you send in those college applications!

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 11 Sep 2007, 03:51

Are you mocking me or are you being serious.. I'm kind of confused right now :/

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Sep 2007, 04:11

I like encouraging youngsters rather than mock them! In the american sense, it is a 'way to go!'. In the indian sense, an elder's seal of approval for what you said. When you read a lot and pay attention to what you write, you will write very good essays when it comes to college admission, is what I meant...
So, go for it!

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 11 Sep 2007, 04:33

oh, ok, I see, its just the whole "college admission" thing came out of no where, so I was a bit confused.

arulguna · Post by **arulguna** » 11 Sep 2007, 07:52

I think mridangamkid is entitled to voice his Opinion. His opinions will change (or not) depending on how much he learns about the topic and how much he thinks about it in an objective manner.

I dont think there was any need for you to have edited your repsonse. making mistakes (if it was one) is a part of learning and growing up. Don't be afraid to make mistakes in the future mridangamkid.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Sep 2007, 23:59

I missed that original post.

I know that I have edited or even removed posts that have upset others, or even those that, on reflection, I have thought could be too offensive. I have had my outspoken moments. I have not necessarily changed the views I expressed in those posts, just reconsidered publishing them in that form at that time.

Its part of life: its part of forum life too.

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 12 Sep 2007, 00:21

"forum life"

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 12 Sep 2007, 02:30

The thing is though, is that I don't know what I could have said that may have upset someone. If they would tell me what I said was wrong then I would surly modify what I said. I just don't know how what I said was wrong.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Sep 2007, 02:57

m.kid, you are doing fine.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Sep 2007, 05:18

Forum life...

Yes, since I retired from that other unreal world of "office life" I have been spending more and more of my day experiencing various forum versions of life!

arulguna · Post by **arulguna** » 18 Oct 2007, 17:32

Heres a link of Rohan explaining some of the basics of Mridangam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI9RJbljBLw

carnaticcrazen · Post by **carnaticcrazen** » 09 Apr 2008, 19:29

I actually think it is a wonderful project Rohan is doing. Knowing him, I highly doubt he purposely copied Sri Ganapathi Ram's idea. Maybe patenting is not a good idea, but his efforts in his project should be considered. I think it is a very innovative idea from Rohan, and if Ganapathiram Mama didn't take the initiative to patent it or publicize it, that is not Rohan's fault. But, I think Rohan should CONSIDER that several claim that they had seen this design already. Perhaps he should also talk with Ganapathiram Mama. So I'm kind of split on this situation!

Im A Skal Man · Post by **Im A Skal Man** » 07 May 2008, 23:29

The bolt-on head tuners are not a novel idea, but his use of nylon cable and readily available hardware are-- making this accessible for do-it-yourselfer's (which also makes the point of a patent null?)

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 08 May 2008, 01:03

Nylon cables have long been used in mridangam as a substitute for the normal strings.
Nut and bolt mridangams have long been used.

Maybe using nylon with nut and bolt hasn't been done before. I don't really want to speculate farther than that.

Im A Skal Man · Post by **Im A Skal Man** » 08 May 2008, 03:13

I stand corrected on the nylon thing.

As it was said before, it would be great to get Rohan's input on this.

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 08 May 2008, 09:57

mri_fan is right, I myself am using the polyester/nylon cable in all my vaadyams, it maintains tensions really well in variable climates such as in the US. I have been using it for a long time.
The nut bolt mrudangam is also nothing new, as pointed out several times in this thread.

vigneshbal · Post by **vigneshbal** » 10 May 2008, 09:46

why at all talk about this topic? I feel whether it is patented in US (or not), it is not going to affect India. I dont think the mridangam repair shops in India are going to even know about this... So no royalty and all that... Neither is the enforcement so strict.. Now, may be NRI's may be having a problem..But I don't know if you purchase or repair mridangams in US..do you? are there mridangam repair shops in US?

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 11 May 2008, 03:23

vigneshbal wrote:are there mridangam repair shops in US?

I wish! that would make life so much easier...