Swara Identification Exercises - Post Questions Here

To teach and learn Indian classical music
Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

(Suji, you gave away the answer here in this thread for the instrumental piece though it is an easy one. ).
oops..sorry.

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

OK! Since you asked here is the next question.
http://www.mediafire.com/?a1jalpbwr9x
The raga is quite straight forward. Since Suji wanted this is a longer piece (I prefer shorter!). Since there are five phrases you can if you like split as first two as one set and the last three as second set.

For newcomers, the question is: to identify the svara structure of the phrases

I will decode the answers next Friday giving all sufficient time. The discussions can continue all the time. Remember we are interested in the methodology and the logic of inference than the answer. Of course the discussion of the 'posited' ragalakShaNa is part of your discussion!

And do post your answers and discuss onlyat
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=59143#p59143

arunk
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Post by arunk »

> The raga is quite straight forward.
ha-ha nice joke cmlover ;)
(unless you meant raga identification - which I think you did)

Arun

arunk
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Post by arunk »

So are we done with these exercise? Who is going to volunteer with the next sample :)? Perhaps an instrumental one from a (not too fast) kalpana swara section maybe?

Arun

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Arun
I have yet to post the answer to sample 4. Also I was hoping there will be a discussion based on the clip that I posted. Again, Ramakriya has posted a challenging Filmy clip. Let us not be like the Rameshvaram barbers :)

Of course a nice clean short and simple instrumental piece will be good to work on! I wonder why vikram is notparticipating in the instrumentals!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

While Arun is working on getting a problem for us to work on, here is a four second quickie,
http://www.sendspace.com/file/6xebpf
Try to figure out the notes. This may be quite easy or quite difficult depending onyour approach which you should explain. Bonus marks if you can guess the raga from this short phrase!
hereafter we will not wait for more than 48hours for posting the answer! Go ahead and discuss!
and new comers do post your answers and discuss onlyat
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=59143#p59143

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Got it, I think.

ninjathegreat
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Joined: 25 Oct 2005, 22:07

Post by ninjathegreat »

Hi cml sir, arunk, etc...

I volunteer to put the bits up in my webspace for ease of access... If there is no objection, I can provide the links...

N.

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

ninja
Thanks and that will be great. Also let us make sure that no 'names' are attached to the sample clips since we are only interested in the raga/mela/svarasthana....

Just provide the link where the sample can be u/led..

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

here is a quickie instrumental. Let us first see whether we can identify the svaras before going complex. The object is to get all the svaras in this 8sec clip. Some of you may consider it a Child's play :) But let me assure you it is tricky! Also I can find out if you are cheating :)
Here is the sample 6
http://www.sendspace.com/file/r5byij
ninja can u/l to his site and provide the link that maybe easy of access for all.
Kindly post all answers and discussions at
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=59805#p59805
Good Luck!
I will provide the answer in 48 hours.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

Since we already got the last one (check the thread), I hope it is ok to start the next.

Next one - sample 7: http://www.sendspace.com/file/jek7lz

Note: Updated to remove tags that mentioned raga and artist (albeit vocal)

I have slowed it down a bit from the original speed. This is part of kalpanaswara portion and so the tail end is the refrain part. You can leave it or include it in your answer.

Kindly post all answers and discussions at
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=59805#p59805

Have fun!

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 04 Oct 2007, 00:12, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Arun,

Are we supposed to just give swaras?
Last edited by Suji Ram on 04 Oct 2007, 00:06, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

doesnt it just say sample7.wav? I just now downloaded and play it. I must be missing something here - where are you seeing the raga name and artist?

Arun

Suji Ram
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Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

I have the answer ready anyway :)

You need to edit the original tag while renaming
Last edited by Suji Ram on 04 Oct 2007, 00:05, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

oh well :) At least it did not have the swaras too ;)

Arun

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

You can repost it with tags removed. The usual suspects are not around. I have also edited my posts

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

One of the usual suspects is around ;), I downloaded it, listened to it once and as I was thinking about it, I saw Suji's post. I will still try to get at the swaras later on.

ramakriya
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Post by ramakriya »

Suji Ram wrote:You can repost it with tags removed. The usual suspects are not around. I have also edited my posts
One of the ususal suspects :lol: is here :P - Anyway, I will skip answering it immediately!

-Ramakriya
Last edited by ramakriya on 04 Oct 2007, 00:10, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

i updated it with tags (hopefully) removed.

suji - If you want you can delete the contents your post mentioning the raga - Not that guessing this raga should be hard.
Last edited by arunk on 04 Oct 2007, 00:14, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

Next one. This is one is admittedly harder than the previous few but it is also a little bit different and I thought this would be fun.

Sample #8: http://www.sendspace.com/file/uwo3zp

Questions
1. The raga (hopefully no tags to give it away now! But this should be easy even otherwise)
2. There are two swaras (i.e. one of sa, ri ga, ma, pa, da, ni, sa) in this raga that occur in 2 flavors (i.e. two different swarasthanams). All four (i.e 2*2 = 4) occur in this sample. Identify the spots.

Bonus questions
3. Identify other swaras in the raga that occur - as many as you can in this sample.
4. Swara breakdown of entire sampe (i dont have the answer - so we will have to do this collectively).

Have fun! Please do not post answers here - use the answers thread.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 05 Oct 2007, 22:34, edited 1 time in total.

ramakriya
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Post by ramakriya »

Arun,

I am not posting the answer here :) But your description, limits the answer to a very few rAgas, even before I listen to it :cool:

-Ramakriya

Suji Ram
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Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

Here's the sample 9 which I created myself.

1. Identify the swaras and swarastanas
2. Identify the raga

Bonus- Try to add your own swaras to finish... :)

http://www.sendspace.com/file/bqxntr

And please post answers here.

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3675&p=3
Last edited by Suji Ram on 08 Oct 2007, 21:33, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Sample10 is unique in that you have both what the artiste sings as well as the violinist responds. Here it is
http://www.mediafire.com/?1y0gstgcd3m
Listen to both and check whether the violinist responds the same or not; if not what is his response.
We always mentally assume that the accompanist responds the same phrase most of the time. But is it true?
Post your answer and discuss @
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3675&p=4

No credit for guessing the raga :)

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

cmlover - IMO, the intent during kalpanaswaras is really for the accompanist to simply respond "in spirit" (or in kind). So his/her response isn't required to exactly mirror the vocalist's' response. But the "in spirit" and "in kind" does imply that the response should highlight the main points (say prominent swaras) of the the main artist.

So the accompanist does in general follow but not necessarily to the tee. Requiring the latter all the time, I think can get rote and boring (and also quite difficult for very long passages)
Last edited by arunk on 10 Oct 2007, 01:16, edited 1 time in total.

ninjathegreat
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Joined: 25 Oct 2005, 22:07

Post by ninjathegreat »

cmlover wrote:ninja
Thanks and that will be great. Also let us make sure that no 'names' are attached to the sample clips since we are only interested in the raga/mela/svarasthana....

Just provide the link where the sample can be u/led..
ah! there's the problem... I have unlimited space at school (helps being a faculty :)), but only I can upload it! :(... If you email it to me, or, when a piece is uploaded, I will put it there... I can guarantee it will be a reliable link...

Cheers
N.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Thanks ninja for the offer, but that will not be quite useful at present.

Folks

I wonder whether you have an appetite for this smallbit. It is a rare raga and if you guess it you hit the jackpot indeed.
You must get the kaTTai as well as the svaras. Do indicate the MeLam. After you have given your answers I will post the details. This is indeed a test of svaragnaanam! If you are good, you can do it on the fly! (Not me :)
Here is the sample11
http://www.mediafire.com/?djnkgfylcdx

Of course post answers and discussion @
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=60445#p60445

Happy Navaratri celebrations!
(please re d/l the sample which got clipped. This is the correct one)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML, that was too small a piece. The objective is learning and I am taking baby steps, so we do not want to get into trick questions :) I will give it a try though. Thanks.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

azhagiyadai azhagAga, is how I hear it, though not sure...

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Vk
This is an elementary question indeed. The idea is to identify the basic svaras. It is like learning the alphabet! If you can get the notes right then you got it. In the case of an unfamiliar raga you canot be looking for 'known' phrases and you have to look for identifying the notes to get it. Let us discuss the technique of 'ear-trainig' to identify the notes which will be most useful. Trust Arun/suji can help.
Make sure you re u/l the sample since the original one got clipped.

Arasi

Like a true vaggeyakara, you sre trying to put words to fit the svaras! Perhaps you should compose a song in this rare raga once I announce it :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML, now I understand the reasoning behind the 'rare' raga. Good thinking!!

The new one is also a bit distorted in the beginning ( but differently, you are not doctoring them are you ;) ), otherwise both are of similar length. The initial distortion when you clip an mp3 or wav is not easily avoidable, so we will go with this. The clip length is around 4 seconds, is that correct?

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

That is correct! I was trying to avoid the vocal contamination which resulted in the clipping. No trick at all :)
If you decipher the raga then you are a genius! Perhaps Lakshman will help when you get the aro/avaro to get the name right :)

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

VK

Being the navaratri season I was visiting a few houses getting a surfeit of nice music (most were MD the navagraha or navavarna kritis). I had a long chat with an old friend who was a wizard in identifying svaras. His quick answer was that you need practice. Then I asked him how to identify the kaTTai (basic sa). He told me that you have lto isten with a good keyboard all the different kaTTais ( -1 to 7) and internalize them in your memory and then when you listen to music the kaTTai will automatically flash in your mind. Since I have not done it he asked me to identify when some of the folks started singing and without practice I was right about 80% of the time. He said 100% accuracy is easy to obtain. Poor man; he is on remission from cx counting his days but CM is his life blood! Thought I should share this story with you all!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks CML for passing along the suggestions from your friend. Actually I was trying a variation on that exercise today with the online virtual keyboard. The real difficulty is in catching on to the 'Sa', once that is done, figuring out the kaTTai itself can be a relatively easy process, though not trivial. I was thinking about why the decoding is so frustratingly challenging. Not that I have an answer but comparing this challenge to the natural language, it is like I can write my own sentences fine, I can write by copying what someone has written but writing down what someone else says is challenging.. It will be strange with natural languages but quite real with music.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I thought I will post an exercise.

Afte sivasakthi, this should be easy, sruthi is explicitly given, raga is more mainstream, length of the piece a bit longer than our usual samples of late. Any resemblances to a known krithi is accidental :)

http://www.sendspace.com/file/kl38td

Find the raga and the swaras ( and kaTTai since we are always including that as part of the questions )

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Here's the thirteenth sample

An easy one I dabbled with


http://www.sendspace.com/file/7fq7zg

Listen first and see if you can get the raga (I'm sure it is easy)

Then identify the swaras-

Post answers in answer thread- not here
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3675&p=7
Last edited by Suji Ram on 17 Oct 2007, 11:37, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

OK! here is a followup question for that superb lesson by Suji. It might keep us busy during the victory celebrations of Devi :)
http://www.mediafire.com/?4dz1wdm0fbz
Pl decode the whole series and of course bonus if you can guess the raga (which may not be difficult for some of you veterans!). We might even have a nice discussion of this raga!

Do post answers in answer thread- not here
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3675&p=7

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

Could not resist one more cmlover (i hope you dont mind - i will work on yours too!)

Sample #15: http://www.sendspace.com/file/ov56cr

(note: updated since first post with a sample where I have tried to adjust sruthis of both sample to be closer to each other. I think it is close to D#).

Has two phrases of two ragas

Questions:
1. Can you spot the two ragas for the two phrases.
2. The phrases are not identical. But where do the raga differences show up?
3. Decode the swaras for the two phrases

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 20 Oct 2007, 01:15, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Ha, I was going to chose one of this raga for my next weeks project.
I will skip this one. I have deadly assignment due dates but may be my passion will override and I may attempt.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Great! The plate is full for the Navarathri season!
Victory to one and all of you!
namastubhyam namastubhyam devi tubhyamEva namO namaH |

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

http://www.sendspace.com/file/r54ud1

here's a simple swara identification exercise.

1. Identify all the swaras you hear
2. the swara breakdown
2. Come up with a hypothetical arohana /avarohana based on this clip.


I'm not sure if one can identify raga- it is not so well known raga (I mean not heard in concerts often). But it can take you there. Some of us might have learnt it.

The one below sounds better

http://www.sendspace.com/file/8vs0ef
Last edited by Suji Ram on 22 Oct 2007, 11:43, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

Here is next one (sample 18): http://www.sendspace.com/file/lj43k3

This is a triple threat. Samples are short on purpose. Although I think they are unambiguous, I cannot guarantee it (my perception is colored as I am listening to from a wider perspective). Besides the last ambiguous one turned into a very educational exercise - so perhaps ambiguity is good :)

Exercise:
1. Internalize the phrases. Sruthi (some adjusted from original) - should be at or close to G#
2. Get the swara breakdown of the phrases
3. Make inferences - explain your inferences based on swara breakdown.

Have fun - and of course dont post answers here. Do that in the answers thread.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 23 Oct 2007, 07:53, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

While working on Arun's (usually) tough nuts, here is a reinforcemnt sample to decode with that superb lesson that Suji just gave us :)
http://www.mediafire.com/?8modzpleich
It will be nice to identify the gamakas...

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

We have a numbering problem. Suji's last one was sample 16. CML named his sample 17. Arun, yours though not named as sample 18 will be considered sample 18.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

ok thanks vk. I changed my post to reflect sample 18

Arun

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML :) That is not one of the sangathis I learnt. The last little part is different. BTW, Somu does not sing one of the complex sangathis I learnt. ;)

arunk
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Post by arunk »

who is taking up the next one? I know suji wanted a break :)

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

arunk wrote:who is taking up the next one? I know suji wanted a break :)
Ill post one interesting combo over the weekend. I really need a break, otherwise I might get an F grade. :( :)

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

OK Suji!
We break with you :)
(I mean we take a break along with you! Good luck with the course !)

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

ok. Let us indeed take a break. Good luck suji!
Last edited by arunk on 25 Oct 2007, 21:43, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

OK, break is good... I am too busy with other stuff to spend quality time with the clips.

I have one idea in mind for an exercise, it is still gelling.. May be I will do that after Suji's. But if it happens quickly, I may do that tomorrow.

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