Padams

[vgvindan]

though those who may only know Annamayya's bhakti songs and consider him a 'muRRum thuranda' ( who do you translate this to English? ) saint will come to know the Shringara rasa side of his repertoire and have to readjust their mental model.

vk,
I have already quoted one couplet of Tirukkural about how to evaluate a person. It is we who have to change our outlook towards SRngara Rasa. As Arasi once pointed out there is vast difference between 'notice' board and 'notice me' board.

In a parallel thread, there was a padam posted where it is mentioned as 'Elu Elu' - It is nothing but a plain invitation for sex. These padams come under the category of 'notice me'

I was recently watching the movie 'Krishna Bhakti' in Podigai channel. The final scene where the hero is about to be hanged, he delivers a long lecture confessing to what all he had done and what he deserves - this is the redeeming part of the story which wipes out the impression created earlier by his raping the unsuspecting Dasi.

These padams contain no such redeeming feature about them - they are plain sex. If CM musicians want to celebrate sex, let them do so by all means. But let them be bold to declare so and not be hypocrites.

Notwithstanding dramatisation of the kRti 'antaryAmi alasiti solasiti' in the picture Annamayya, the contents would go to prove what kind of a person Annamayya was. (I have recently posted the meaning of the Kriti in a parallel thread.)

Not the 'Dandapani - kOdandapani' variety

[vasanthakokilam]

VG, I stand by the words you quoted but to make sure the full context is understood, I do not mean to put Annamayya and Kshetrayya in the same spectrum. In fact, as I wrote, that is one of the problems I had with the the authors' thesis.

I would not go as far as your statement "These padams contain no such redeeming feature about them - they are plain sex". There may not be any redeeming features and it has plain adult content but it is not all about that. Even in the translation, the imagination and creativity in the poem construction by Kshetrayya comes out quite well in many of the songs and quite funny in a few cases. So there is quite a bit of literature credit he deserves.

I always enjoy the immense musical content of the padams but here knowing the meaning, some of the raga choices are a bit jarring. My favourite Mukhari in the hands of Thyagaraja brings out the various rasas of this great raga but here it is employed for a song that comes out very ordinary and crude in the translation: 'nann'anevA'. I am sure I will still enjoy this padam for the music since I would not understand the words but the prose here is at best 'crude hAsyA' rasa and it is hard for me to match that with one of the many rasas of Mukhari. Ignorance is bliss in such cases.

[Always_Evolving]

My favourite Mukhari in the hands of Thyagaraja brings out the various rasas of this great raga but here it is employed for a song that comes out very ordinary and crude in the translation: 'nann'anevA'. I am sure I will still enjoy this padam for the music since I would not understand the words but the prose here is at best 'crude hAsyA' rasa and it is hard for me to match that with one of the many rasas of Mukhari. Ignorance is bliss in such cases.

vk: thanks for reopening the substance of the thread; I was wondering what I'd done to effectively kill it after my post! Which mukhari padam are you referring to? Not osOsi?

[vasanthakokilam]

Which mukhari padam are you referring to? Not osOsi?

Not osOsi. The book calls it 'nann'anevA'.. They translate it as 'Why Complain to me?'. Is that a well known padam?

[vgvindan]

The person who sings -

eRRaikkum EzhEzh piRavikkum untannODu
uRROmE AvOm unakkE nAm ATseivOm
maRRai nam kAmangaL mARRElOrembAvAi - (tiruppAvai 29)

when she also sings -

kuttu viLakkeriya kOTTukkAl kaTTilmEl
mettenRa panca sayanattin mElERi
kottalar pUnguzhal nappinnai kongaimEl
vaittukkiDanda malar mArbA vAi tiRavAi
maittaDan kaNNinAi nI un maNALanai
ettanai pOdum tuyilezhavoTTAi kAN
ettanaiyElum pirivARRagillAyAl
tattuvamaNRu tagavElOrembAvAi - (tiruppAvai 19)

then it is SRngAra.

Christ said "Blessed are the children ... they shall see God". Here children does not mean physical age but mental frame. When one sings about Sport of kAmESvara and kAmESvari, with the mental frame of a child, then it is SRngAra - rest is all Sex.

I always enjoy the immense musical content of the padams...

Thyagaraja Sings -

P inta saukhyamani nE jeppa jAla
entO EmO evariki telusunO

A dAnta sItA kAnta karuNA
svAnta prEmAdulakE telusunu gAni (inta)

C svara rAga laya sudhA rasamandu
vara rAma nAmamanE kaNDa
cakkera miSramu jEsi bhujincE
Sankaruniki telusunu tyAgarAja vinuta (inta)

O Lord Sri Rama - spouse of Sita - praised by this Thyagaraja! I am unable to express as to how much exultation it is; whoever can know how much it is and how it is! The exultation is knowable only by those self controlled, innately compassionate, great lovers of Lord. The exultation is known to Lord Sankara who relishes by mixing the refined sugar called the blessed name of zrI rAma, in the nectarine juice of music - svara – Raga – laya.

vk,
If mere svara - Raga - laya can be that sweet, how sweet would be that music mixed with anurAga bhakti? Who has relished that mixture? Only Lord Sankara knows! (or Thyagaraja knows)

ps : for lyrics and meaning of TiruppAvai - http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/alvars/andal ... erse1.html

[arunk]

The point I cannot comprehend about SringAri in bhakthi (ANDAL, annammayya) is this: When many of these bhakthi poets very well know that the Supreme is NOT of human nature - and that "salvation" is internal (as they sing/write about that too), then how does singing/writing about them in human terms, particularly w.r.t human instincts and passions still tie to it?

As an example, in paluku tEnalatalli (there are supposedly two versions, the original being "more SrngAra"), annamayya describes Mahalakshmi sleeping peacefully way into the morning after enjoying the night with Sri Venkateswara. Some stanzas describe her physical state and hint at why.

I am unable comprehend how the nature of the Supreme (as described in the Gita, Upanishads) gells with this - and how it is still a high form of bhakthi as in a vehicle to reach that Supreme. How does imagining/describing the forms of Supreme in terms of basic human passions gell help? I am not being dismissive and certainly don't want to be judgmental - just completely flummoxed. I wish I could understand their frame of mind in this aspect as well as the dynamics of the society then.

Arun

[vgvindan]

arun,
I request you to read what Vivekananda has to say -
http://www.hinduism.fsnet.co.uk/namoma/sayings_swamiji/ (Invoke 'The Sages of India')

[arunk]

thanks vgv for the link! As I want to read what Swami Vivekananda has to say in that section everything else too

[uday_shankar]

I am unable comprehend how the nature of the Supreme (as described in the Gita, Upanishads) gells with this
Arun

This is a complex subject and I am certainly no expert. But no aspect of so-called human activity, whether it is sex or a description of lord Rama's shoulders, or the "Lord" Rama himself, partakes in the true nature of Brahman. All of it is just a figment of imagination. So there's no need to separate "passions" from other human activity. Any activity is bad if it causes bandha (for example, for some Carnatic rasikas, the greatest stumbling block towards self-realization may be addiction to Carnatic music ).

Actually there may be a strong case for sensual love being an anchor with with to draw an individual towards Bhakti. I would point to the Maitreyi BrahmaNa of the Brihadaaranyakopanishad, the dialogue between yAgnyavalkya and Maitreyi. I think there's a commentary by vidyaranya. And they are all available with extensive english meanings. The dialogue starts with:
aatmanastu kaamaye sarvam priyam bhavati
(roughly translated "everybody love things only because of love of oneself)

This is a way to draw the seeker towards one pointedness, temporarily showing the Atma to be a "bhogta" or enjoyer and later disabusing the seeker of such notions. Eventually, everything falls off an only pure awareness remains.

All of this does not take away from the fact that for most people, complete rejection of worldy activity is not possible without being plunged into further anxieties (i.e., mAya). That is why they are advised to practice moderation in eating, sex, etc.. while at the same time trying to surrender all aspects of their lives, not just the fruits, to the Lord (i.e., saguna brahman). If complete renunciation is achieved, the "Lord" disappears too!

[vk]

Does anyone have a good and wider collection of recordings of Padams? I really long to listen to them. I am so tired of the regular bhakti compositions

[nathikan]

rs,
Your point is valid; but that is a larger social issue. For example there is not a single woman lyricist in Tamil or Hindi Films - (Was Maya Govind a lyricist or music director?).

Thamarai is a notable one with several big name movies (Kaaka Kaaka, Minnale), and she has written from a male perspective. Vishali is another.

[nathikan]

I am unable comprehend how the nature of the Supreme (as described in the Gita, Upanishads) gells with this - and how it is still a high form of bhakthi as in a vehicle to reach that Supreme. How does imagining/describing the forms of Supreme in terms of basic human passions gell help? I am not being dismissive and certainly don't want to be judgmental - just completely flummoxed. I wish I could understand their frame of mind in this aspect as well as the dynamics of the society then.

I remember reading that Parathiar wrote songs to Chellamma which a friend of his said was unsuitable, so he changed the name to Kannamma. Poets use the rhetorical conventions of their times.

I wonder if people feel as squeamish about the immorality in Carnatic music as in the sexuality.

[vgvindan]

Will someday women singers rise against the rank-abuse of woman-hood in jAvalis? There is another example here -
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=82577#p82577

[ragam-talam]

The creator and His creation being the same, there's no distinction to be made between samsAra and nirvANa.
Those who do, miss the whole point.

[vgvindan]

ragam-talam,
In the pallavi line of the jAvali cited, there is a word 'bAjAri'.
May I ask you whether you know the meaning of this word? In 'paccai' Tamizh it means 'E tEvaDiyA!' (O Prostitute!).

Is it because the woman so addressed is fictional that you want to gloss over the fact? I take it that my own mother - sister - wife has been addressed that way.

Bharati sang 'mAdar tammai izhivu seyyum maDamaiyaik koLuttuvOm' - Let us destroy (burn) that stupidity of demeaning the women.

You must pontificate so about 'saMsAra' and 'nirvANa' and 'missing the whole point' when your own women-folk is abused so.

There is more in the caraNas - I shall await the translation by rigapada.

[asrsai]

The full lyrics of this padam (in telugu) are as follows:-
శివదీక్షాపరురాలనురా నే శీలమింతైన విడువజాలనురా
శివశివ గురునాజ్ఙ మీరనురా శ్రీవైష్ణవుడంటే చేరనురా
చ//వడిగ వచ్చి మఠము జొరవకురా శివార్చనవేళ తలుపు తెరువకురా
మడుగుకావిచెరగు దీయకురా మాటిమాటికి నీవు నోరు మూయకురా //శివ//
చ//పంచాక్షరీజపశీలనురా కూకిపలుకులు వినజాలనురా
కొంచెపు వగలు నేనెంచనురా మ్రొక్కుదు రుద్రాక్షసరులు తెంచకురా //శివ//
చ//అజ్జచూచి చన్ను లదుమకురా నా సెజ్జగొలుసుబట్టి గదియకురా
బుజ్జగించకు పసిగోలనురా నా కెమ్మోవి నొక్కకు భక్తురాలనురా //శివ//
చ//మోము మోమునుబట్టి చేర్చకురా నీ నామముతోడ బూతిగూర్చకురా
వేమరు తొడభిక్ష వేడకురా పోపోరా మన్నారురంగ మల్లాడకురా //శివ//