Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

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vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

cmlover wrote:Here you go
http://www.sendspace.com/file/mlkirn
:cool: Very nice CML. Sounds quite nice and is very pleasant. That transition to Charana fast paced swaras provide for the variety and is quite catchy. I will listen to it some more.

Your constructions are great illustrations of what I wrote before. The same characteristic phrase cast in various rhythmic combinations sound very different and seems like a fundademental construction tool/technique used by all the composers. ( obvious observation probably ). Your sequences, as I was playing along with it, gave me a few more ideas for constructing melody lines for this raga.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

cmlover wrote:So let me summarize the rule.
If you land on any svara occurring only in arohana you are permitted to ascend to any note in ascent occurring in either aro or avaro. You are always permitted to descend to any note occurring in the avaro.
On the other hand if you are on a note occurring only in the avaro then you are permitted to descend ( not ascend to any note in aro or avaro!
Is this not discrimination?
If you land on any svara occurring only in arohana you are permitted to ascend to any note in ascent occurring in either aro or avaro.
Yes. But in practice, the neighbouring note in arohana would be most common.

You are always permitted to descend to any note occurring in the avaro.
FROM the same above swara occuring only in arohana? No - you cannot descend period.

On the other hand if you are on a note occurring only in the avaro then you are permitted to descend not ascend to any note in aro or avaro!
Yes. This is just similar to a note occuring only in arohana - the only difference is here you descend and there you ascend. Also, similar to above, from such a swara you cannot ascend period.

A simpler way to look at this (consider non-vakra scales only for now).
From any swara, you can ascend if it is in the arohana.
From any swara, you can descend if it is in the avarohana.

In other words, focus on the transition *from* the swara, NOT the transition *to* the swara.

Consider s-g-r-s for in sAvEri. There are three transitions and you are
1. ascending FROM sa
2. descending FROM ga.
3. desdending FROM ri.

So you ask
1. Ascending from sa. Is sa in arohana ;) ?
2. Descending from ga. Is ga in avarohana?
3. Descending from ri. Is ri in avarohana?

The answer is true for all three and so allowed.

Consider the same s-g-r-s for our raga s-r-m-n-S/S-d-p-g-s.
1. Ascending from sa: Is sa in arohana? Of course yes
2. Descending from ga: Is ga in avarohana? Yes.
3. Desending from ri. Is ri in avarohana? NO.

So s-g-r-s is disallowed for our raga.

But s-g-s would be allowed although probably "not common" (as swara skipping as is done in s-g while allowed need to be used judiciously in cm).

Consider these:
Is d-n-d allowed or not in kambhOji/bilahari? Why?
Is d-n-R-s allowed or not in kAmbhOji/bilahari? Why?
Is S-n-d-n allowed or not in bahudAri (s-g-m-d-n-S/S-n-p-m-g-s)? Why?
Is n-d-p-d-n allowed or not in bahudAri? Why?

If you apply the above procedure, and you will arrive at the right answer for each case.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 06 Nov 2007, 22:31, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

CML,
That is indeed great sounding piece.
After VK's initial composition, listening to this was like sitting in a concert and exclaming- ah! I recognize!- that's vasantakokiladhwani!!!!

I am still working on mine.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 04 Nov 2007, 00:31, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

arun,
nice explanation- but taking time to digest. So this rule should also apply to vasantakokiladhwani too.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

no suji - vasantakokiladhwani is vakra. But it should apply for the "non-vakra" portions.

I have not given enough thought but vakra does determine order. In SrIraga e.g. m-g is disallowed. It must be m-r-g (and r following it - why? because must descend from ga). But by above procedure, ma is in avarohana so both m-g and m-r should be allowed. The difference is the vakra avarohana which says m-r-g-r-s. Thus above procedure should not be used for vakra ragas in particular for the portion that is the vakra part.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 04 Nov 2007, 00:45, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

But it should apply for the "non-vakra" portions.
yes, got it!

arasi
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Post by arasi »

CML,
Great job. Vasantakokiladhvani is gaining stature. What I like most about it that it lives up to its name. It IS an ode to the bird, in the manner of garudhvani. I do not mean in sounds alone but going along with the personality of the bird too. Spotting a garuDA is a dramatic occurence and you mostly see the bird soaring high in the skies. Though I haven't heard the bird, the rAgA seems to suit the bird's sound--distant and urgent (in the manner of getting swiftly to save gajEndrA!).
As for VKdhvani, the best part of it for me is the sweet notes which you seem to hear from close quarters. Though the cuckoo sings only in spring, you hear him (mrs or not!) nearby, outside the window on a low branch of the mango tree. The technical stuff from you pros is mind boggling. It was the charm of the melody that captured my imagination.
Interesting, VK mentioned the inspiration point as listening to Mali's piece and it sounds just as though Mali ventured into a village, settled on a haystack and blew away on his flute to the delight of the village children...

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Thanks Arun
That was a mega explanation but done clearly. I was thinking only in terms of nonvakra ragas only. Of course vakra ragas have to display the vakraness and hence are complicated. Is there any manual where these rules are explained (with the exceptions for specific ragas ?). If not you should write one !

Suji/Arasi

I enjoyed playing with VKdhvani. I noticed that the sharp jumpover to Ri from pa ia almost like a 'vikkal' (hiccough) which gives it a special colour and we may even abbreviate and call it VKKLdhvani :) In addition to hallo'een it will come handy for the horror movies! I am waiting to see what Suji comes up with. By the by your waxing poetical is bringing pleasant memories of sighting Garuda during childhood!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

VK
Work on the melody lines for VKKLdhvani. Have some water (not Vodka :) handy!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Consider these:
1) Is d-n-d allowed or not in kambhOji/bilahari? Why?
2) Is d-n-R-s allowed or not in kAmbhOji/bilahari? Why?
3) Is S-n-d-n allowed or not in bahudAri (s-g-m-d-n-S/S-n-p-m-g-s)? Why?
4) Is n-d-p-d-n allowed or not in bahudAri? Why?
Let me work these for practise.

Kambhoji

(Using old notation in aro/ava for clarity when there is no confusion.)

Aa: S R2 G3 M1 P D2 S
Av: S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S

Bilahari:
Aa: S R2 G3 P D2 S
Av: S N3 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S

Bahudari:

Aa:S G M D N S
Av: S N P M G S


1) d-n-d
Kambhoji. d-n, d is in Aro., n-d, n is in Ava. So allowed.
Bilahari, d-n, d in Aro, n-d, n is in Ava, So allowed

2) d-n-R-S

Kambhoji. d-n is ok, n-R, n is not in Aro so not allowed
Bilahari. d-n is ok. n-R, n is not in Aro, so not allowed

3) S-n-d-n
bahudari: S-n is ok, n-d is OK since n is in ava, d-n is ok since d is in Aro - allowed

4) n-d-p-d-n
bahudari: n-d is ok since n is in Ava, d-p is not Ok since d is not in the Ava - not allowed

Is this correct? Nice workable algorithm..

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Here's my first composition- half way pUrvanga

http://www.sendspace.com/file/kczlgn

VarNam- vasantakOkiladhwaNi
Adi tAlam

Pallavi

G , R~ , |N`~ , S , |R N` S G | R~, N` S|

S S G R |N` S S P`|G` P` P` G` | P` P` R S|

G G P P |G R N` S|G P G G |R N` S , |

P G R N` |S , G P|G G P G |P-R’ S’ , |


Anupallavi

G , G , |P G G R| N` S S G|S G G P|

G P P G |P R’ S’ S’ |G’ R’ N~ |S’ , , , |

Note I have repeated each line twice-

Does this follow the rule VK?
I have introduced nyasa dhIrga etc.
Maybe it sounds different.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 06 Nov 2007, 00:30, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

VK
Wake up!
Are you talking about bilahari or bahudari ?

Here is a VKKLdhvani bit which some of you may recognize, but certainly Arasi will :)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/t0oadd

Good work Suji ! will liisten first...

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Image
Suji

Just Fantastic! It is a masterpice....
You have elevated VKdhvani to concert level....

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Suji, great job. Very cool indeed :cool: nyasa dhIrga and gamakams add to the nice effect. Wow, now you have expanded the scope of this by bringing out the other facets. It also has a bit of HM sound to it.

You also should try CML's composition on the violin.

I agree with what CML said.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

cmlover wrote:VK
Wake up!
Are you talking about bilahari or bahudari ?
I do not know. Where did I mess up? I thought Arun asked about both Bilahari and Bahudari.
cmlover wrote:Here is a VKKLdhvani bit which some of you may recognize, but certainly Arasi will :)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/t0oadd
:D I hear the VKKL but I do not recognize the song. ( started to sound like the western pop song named 'popcorn' ) Are you still on the Haloween theme? ;)

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

VK
You added the bahudari svaram and I did not see Arun including it! According to SRJ Bahudari is (28th mela)
Aro S G M P D N S'
Avaro S' N D N P M G S

Hence ndpdn is ok! (but the vakra confuses me!)

I will wait for Arasi to listen before the VKKL is revealed. She belongs to the generation for whom 'husband is the visible God' :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML, I just copied what Arun provided since you missed that. The SRJ def for Bahudari is different from what Arun provided.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

VK,
The film is kaNavanE kaN kaNDa deivam. The song is 'unnaik kaN tEDudE, un ezhil kANavE, uLam nADudE!
uRangAmalE en manam vADudE, and each phrase is punctuated with a hiccup :)

arunk
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Post by arunk »

sorry - bahudari turned out to be a wrong example. I wanted to give a raga with a swara present only in arohana - and used a "simplified structure" which is incomplete and thus misleading

How about nATTai - s r3 g3 m1 p d3 n3 S/S n3 p m1 r3 s.

s-r-g-m-g-r-s
s-r-g-m-r-g-s
s-r-g-m-r-s

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 04 Nov 2007, 07:45, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

although i dont understand what extra info is conveyed by S-n-d-n-p-m-g-s avarohana version.

S-n-d-n is allowable just by the simpler version. I dont think this vakra allows d-p. It only allows d-n-p as conveyed by the vakra. But again, this is conveyed by the simpler version too.

S-n-d-n-p does occur as a phrase few times in the version of brOvabhAramA that I learnt and so perhaps s-n-d-n-p is to highlight a vishesha prayoga (i dont know that it is). The simpler s-g-m-p-d-n-S/S-n-p-m-g-s allows for it.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 04 Nov 2007, 08:17, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vk - you got those right

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

cmlover wrote:http://mazeguy.net/expressive/salute.gif
Suji

Just Fantastic! It is a masterpice....
You have elevated VKdhvani to concert level....
Thanks CML.
I like that icon :)
Can you please reproduce my varnam in MIDI. I would like to hear how it sounds with flute in comparison to your composition. Note the slurs between swaras as you hear. I could not notate those.

VK,
I'm glad you liked it. Thanks.
The HM like feel I think comes from swaras with descending slides
Now tell me if GRn~S is acceptable. Since it is allowed in mandra stayi I think it should be fine in tara stayi too.
I'm working on rest of it but I need a feed back to proceed. Composing a varnam (If I can call this one) is tough. One can soon exhaust all the swara combination. I am excited about this new raga.
The funny thing is I have to learn by heart my own creation before I play it!!.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 04 Nov 2007, 10:06, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

>Now tell me if GRn~S is acceptable. Since it is allowed in mandra stayi I think it should be fine in tara stayi too.

Yes, definitely.

As you construct the rest of the varnam, see if you can work in some variations on these combinations ( you may already have some of this )

p' r s g r n' s
p' r s g n' s
p' r s g...r n s g,,

s p',,, r s g,,,

s g p g p g r n' s g,,

s g p g p g r n' s p' r s g

etc.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Thanks VK.
The rest of the varnam is flowing. I was intending to use GP GP next.
I was working on a gradual flow from mandra based beginning to madya to tara climax.
It is only now I realise patterns in other varnams. What a way to learn!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Arun
All the three phrases are kosher in NaaTTai according to your rule1 But then I believe belive naaTTai requires mrs and mgrs is not allowed for whatever reason!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

http://www.sendspace.com/file/c18ur9

OK folks!
Here is the super varnam of Suji in the stellar raga vasanthakokiladhvani.

I have written the Lyric for whatever has been composed so far:

Raga VasanthakOkiladhvani

MeLam 28:
Arohanam: s g3 p R2 S
Avarohanam: S p g3 r2 n2' s

P: Saami kAvAy aDimayai nOvathEn
pagaliravAka -a -a -u -unthanai paNinthE-E -n
AP: vA vA murugA kOla mayil mEl
thA thA mayal nIkkiDum aruL

Since it is difficult to do gamakams (I am not too good with pitch bends) Ihave taken very little comppromises. But svaras are as written by Suji. In my view this does not sound bad at all. Also singing is no problem but should wait for the completion of the 'oeuvre by the composer.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/c18ur9

comments please
( pardon me for the erotic piece; but that is the way varNams are supposed to be! Of course arasi would translate into 'chaste' english :)

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Thanks CML for fitting the varnam on flute. It does sound good. I was looking for the original sound of the cuckoo in the varnam and that is preserved-Im glad.

As to the lyrics I appreciate that. :)
But I would use very few words for the varnam otherwise it will sound like kriti.

I am polishing the rest of the varnam and it will be a while before I put it up here. Let me see if I can get creative with lyrics. It will be in colloquial telugu though. ;)

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

That is what I wanted to hear! What is a varnam without Telugu words :)

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Suji,
Just heard your varnam. It is fantastic. You caught on to the spirit of the rAgA. Of course, the author will have to say if this was what he had in mind. Other than that, you did a great job.
Once the final version of the rAgA is posted (VK, take your time to stamp it 'okayed'), and who knows, there may be several composers who get inspired to sing in it...

arasi
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Post by arasi »

I hear more valaji now.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Thanks Arasi,
I provided an audio on violin and notations in earlier post.

VK I have used the following for vasantakOkiladhwani

1. Janta prayogas for only S, G and P. And they can occur either in ascending or descending phrases.
2. No janta for N and R
3. dhIrga prayoga occurs for G, P and offcourse S.
4. A distinctive gamaka/nyasa for R and N.
5. GRNS, PRS, GPGP are used often and add beauty.

Check if this matches your thinking of this raga pattern.
Offcourse this is varnam so the tempo and swara constructions are different than for kriti

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML, nice job on the computer generated stuff and the attempts at multiple speeds.

Suji, all your ideas are consistent with what I am thinking ( 1, 5 and 3 ). And your idea on 4 ( R N ) works very well. So please go ahead. I am not sure if you intended to post another link or not. In any case, we will wait. Thanks.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

cmlover wrote:Arun
All the three phrases are kosher in NaaTTai according to your rule1 But then I believe belive naaTTai requires mrs and mgrs is not allowed for whatever reason!
cmlover - pl. try again. You are not applying the procedure correctly. Can the rules I mention allow you to descend from ga for nATTai (as in m-g-r-s, as well as m-r-g-s)? That would require ga to be in avarohanam would it not? ga is not in the avarohanam for nATTai. So 1st and 2nd are disallowed. Third which is s-r-g-m-r-s is allowed (pl. apply procedure if you want and confirm).

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 05 Nov 2007, 05:26, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

suji,

your varnam sounds nice! Although with mandra gandaram, it will be a fairly stiff challenge amateur vocalists to pull it off in their usual singing sruthi :) I liked the gamaka on the nishada

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 05 Nov 2007, 05:30, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Sorry! stupid of me. Got confused with the aro/avaro.
I agree with you. That is the reason mgrs is not allowed in NaaTTai and only mrs is allowed. I have to be careful in analyzing !

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

So, Arun, is this rule/algorithm something you hit upon yourself or this is documented in books? Very clearly formulated method, by the way. Good job.

In fact, I am wondering if many of the complex aro/ava of some ragas are really not necessary except notating them as characteristic prayogas if they can be derived with your rule without vakram. I understand vakaram within an octave can not be done away with but some of the vakra definitions may be superflous.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

arunk wrote:suji,

your varnam sounds nice! Although with mandra gandaram, it will be a fairly stiff challenge amateur vocalists to pull it off in their usual singing sruthi :) I liked the gamaka on the nishada

Arun
Thanks

ah! I thought so someone is going to point that out. One can go until mandara M in abhogi- just a little lower and you are there.

I changed the Sruti of my recording to 5 and I did OK singing mandara G. I'm not sure of male voice. Is it difficult?
Last edited by Suji Ram on 05 Nov 2007, 08:58, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

vasanthakokilam wrote:CML, nice job on the computer generated stuff and the attempts at multiple speeds.

Suji, all your ideas are consistent with what I am thinking ( 1, 5 and 3 ). And your idea on 4 ( R N ) works very well. So please go ahead. I am not sure if you intended to post another link or not. In any case, we will wait. Thanks.
Thanks VK,

With just 5 swaras and constraints on usage we can get so much done!
I just need time to get it finished..

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I just need time to get it finished..
No problem. Take your time. Thanks.

I just tried the mandra sthayi prayogams. It is relatively easy on the flute to go down to g' and it sounds quite nice.

On the jantai prayogas and gamakas, I wish I can match to the level you have played, a lot of polish needed on my side to get there.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

suji -

I was mainly talking about every-day people i.e. average amateurs. And all of the below also applies mainly to them.

(Although this is my guess) From what I have observed, in general males do better in mandra stayi. The bass nature of the average male voice allows for more "volume" (thickness/weight) there compared to females.

A range of m1' (mandra suddha-madyama) to (tara panchama) is required and mostly handle most ragas. Again a guess - but I think a overwhelming % (i would say in high 90s) of varnams and krithis would be confined to this range. For example, if you have a valaji varnam, would it go to D2? That is pretty high.

Again among amateurs, a range of m1' to P for the same sruthi and where they can hit them clearly is not necessarily a trivial thing. I am not saying that it is rare of course - just that it is not child's play, not a given for everyone. Say one has to sing abhOgi varnam followed by hamsadhwani varnam (or kAmbhOji gItam) ...

Arun

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vasanthakokilam wrote:So, Arun, is this rule/algorithm something you hit upon yourself or this is documented in books? Very clearly formulated method, by the way. Good job.
I don't know if it is documented - and I would expect to be. I think this is one of those basic principles which is strangely not highlighted enough for us average rasikas. I figured this myself - atleast this is how I eventually understood things. The trouble is when someone is asked "how does that raga go"? The response is to sing the arohana and avarohana. Of course the raga contour for most ragas is indeed there in that. The fact that cm melodies do follow the order a lot of the time results in us being able to get a familiar "snippet" of the raga from the aro/avaro. But then to the layman, I think this sort of reinforces the simplistic (and incorrect) notion that the aro/avaro does indeed determine the order. We think it must be s-r-m in sAveri, and it must be p-d-S in kAmboji. And we do hear s-r-m and p-d-S a lot in those ragas! But soon then hear d-n-d, p-d-n-d, m-p-d-n-d, in kAmbhOji and scratch our heads :). We probably then conclude "ha! tough ragas dont always follow scale - this must be a special exception for kAmbhOji"!

I should also say the above rule(s) I mentioned should be applied only to confirm why something is allowed. I think raga laksya may rule out things which are allowed by this. For example, arbitrary jumping/skipping may seem right as-per aro/avaro, but raga mood/colour may disallow it (like what Uday mentioned earlier). Of course there are also many ragas, whose aro/avaro cannot be properly defined. And so they will allow stuff which the "approx aro/avaro" may disallow.
In fact, I am wondering if many of the complex aro/ava of some ragas are really not necessary except notating them as characteristic prayogas if they can be derived with your rule without vakram. I understand vakaram within an octave can not be done away with but some of the vakra definitions may be superflous.
I think this is not always the case. The trouble with these ragas may be that you may only be able to define a aro/avaro that either allows more than what the raga allows, or allows less than what the raga allows. These ragas may have "complex" restrictions than a simple one like "you can only descend from ga". For example, they may allow p-d, p-d-n but not m-p-d or p-d-n-S.

But yes - since SINGING aro/avaro is expected to provide a "synopis of the raga" - one is forced to include characteristic prayogas. But if such a raga, has also has complex restrictions, you are sort of between a rock and a hard place. You end up with allowing too much or allowing too litttle.

It would be an interesting exercise to take some "complex" ragas and dissect them. But then we have to know for sure what is allowed and not and we are just dabblers and babblers :)


Arun
Last edited by arunk on 05 Nov 2007, 21:09, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Thanks Arun!
That is a well written piece good enough to be published in a musical Journal. I remember once tangling with Uday on this issue and he tried his level bes to make me understand. Now with your pithy rule it becomes quite clear. Not that I will not make mistakes applying it :)

Raga lakShaNa is a very elusive phenomenon which can be 'felt/learned' but not clearly explained. It is like the intonation of the veedic mantras wherein no amount of rules can capture the spirit of the recitations.

Could you Arun also simplify and explain the sancharas in vakra ragas? Can the vakrahood be violated in svarakalpana if it preserves raga lakshana?

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Thanks cmlover,
cmlover wrote:Not that I will not make mistakes applying it :)
Dont feel bad. I cannot even state the rules without making a mistake. Just now, I realized I had originally stated it as:
From any swara, you can ascend if it is arohana.
From any swara, you can descend if it is arohana.

i.e. both as arohana :). Luckily I had explanations which hopefully pointed otherwise. But this may have caused you to incorrectly apply for nATTai. Anyway I fixed it now in that old post

I will look into vakra. I am not 100% but I think the rules there may be not as uniform. In some ragas vakra patterns are truly vakra (e.g SrIraga), and in others they just may indicate highlight a special prayoga which happens to be vakra - not sure though.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 06 Nov 2007, 21:00, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

From any swara, you can descend if it is in arohana.
Are you missing an "in" in your statement?

rule or no rule-
I think there is something inherent in a melody that does not permit you to sing against the rules you mentioned.
Now that I am finishing the varnam it is hard to do a wrong move, the melody dictates you how you proceed up and down.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

arunk wrote:In some ragas vakra patterns are truly vakra (e.g SrIraga), and in others they just may indicate highlight a special prayoga which happens to be vakra - not sure though.
To highlight the latter, take darbAr. The commonly provided aro/avaro is:
s r2 m1 p d2 n2 S
S n2 d2 p m1 r2 g2 g2 r2 s

Note that vakra in avarohana as well as jhaNTa ga. What does this mean? That one MUST go down vakra as in m-r-g when descending TO ga from above? Also one MUST use jhaNTa when descending from ga like ga-ga-r-s? Well actually neither , although both are common.
1. m-r-g vakra is indeed common.
2. m-r-g-g-r-s i.e r-g-g from above is also indeed common.

Both have a strong darbAr stamp, particularly the second one. However, the varnam has m-g~-r-s (e.g. in pallavi, also in last cittaswara d , n S R S n~ ; d d p m d p m g~ ; r r s). Also you also have n-G-R-S (not that that this is not necessarily allowed by above).

So darbAr scale wise could have been S-n-d-p-m-g-r-s but m-g-r is not as common as vakra (and jhanTa in vakra). It is not rare but the vakra is essential for darbAr. So a simple scalar structure like S-n-d-p-m-g-r-s would be misleading that it does not convey in that the vakra (with jhaNTa on ga) is mandatory in a synopsis of darbAr.

But a vakra scale may be misleading too as it does not readily convey that m-g-r is also allowed. Note if we propose that since the vakra pattern is m-r-g-g-r, and thus m-g-r is a subset and thus implied, then we will have trouble with SrIraga which has the same pattern, but (i think) will have none of this m-g-r business (will then simply swallow maNIrangu into it ;)).

So what is the ideal representation for such ragas? And darbAr is perhaps not even the most complex of ragas :)

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 07 Nov 2007, 08:16, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Suji Ram wrote:
From any swara, you can descend if it is in arohana.
Are you missing an "in" in your statement?
Yes. Thanks

Suji Ram
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Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

G , R~ , |N`~ , S , |R N` S G | R~, N` S|

Now looking at the first line in VKD varnam I first thought I violated a rule when I had S,| RNSG
Now is that OK? I am descending from S eventhough R does not appear in arohana.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

doesn't g-r-n'-s appear in avarOhana? So descending from ri is allowed. For example, in darbAr and SrIraga, you can have n-G-R. They do not mandate n-R-G-R i.e. with vakra. So here, s-r-n'-s can be allowed in the same vein. s-r-s => probably not (?). But then like I implied, vakra in the aro/avaro simply is whatever the raga melody dictates :). If raga mood is retained, I say why not?

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 07 Nov 2007, 08:17, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Like you perhaps implied, we must never forget that lakhsya gives way to lakshaNa and not the other way - at least during early raga development.
Last edited by arunk on 06 Nov 2007, 23:06, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Thanks Arun,
I am more a visual thinker...get lazy when I have read rules.. :)

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