There has always been many opinions about the above aspects.
Let me try to get this clear.
Are Akshara and Aksharakala are the same ?
Aksharakala as per Sambamurthy Book is a unit of time. By this we can presume that one beat is one aksharakala.
mAtrA as per Sambamurthy Book 4 Aksharakala is one Matra or in other words 4 beats constitute one mAtrA.
Anyway this is very confusing for practitioners as well as students.
Many say it differently. Whenever we say Adi Tala we say it contains 8 Aksharas or 8 beats. 8 Beats means it contains 8 syllables in first speed and 16 syllables in second speed and 32 syllables in third speed and so on and so forth.
The confusion arises in practice when we intermingle speeds and try to represent a pattern. For example take the following :
Tha . . .
Dhi . . .
Ki . . .
Na . . .
Thom . . .
Tha .
Dhi .
Ki .
Na .
Thom .
Tha di ki na thom (tha)
This contains first Khandam with 4 Kaarvais each in third speed that is after uttering Tha the karvai is for 3 syllable duration in 4th speed. The second Khandam is one kArvai after Tha. The third Khandam is uttered without any kArvai.
The first Khandam goes for 5 beats and second Khandam goes for 2 1/2 beats and 3 khandam goes for 1 1/4 beat so the total is 8 3/4 beats. In other words in order to render this pattern once it has to be taken as atheetam or before samam. The starting point is 1 syllable (in fourth speed) after the second visarjita.
The confusion is do we have to say it is 8 3/4 aksharam or 35 Aksharam or aksharakalam or matra or whatever it is ?
Some say it is 8 3/4 Aksharam and some say it is 35 Aksharam some say it is 35 Matra.
Kindly clarify.
Further questions follow.
J.Balaji
Akshara, Aksharakala and Matra
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bhaktha
- Posts: 323
- Joined: 15 Jan 2007, 23:02
My two cents:
AFAIK, an akshara corresponds to one beat, however long the duration might be. The duration of the akshara is decided by the no of matras in it. Hence a matra is the smallest unit of time in our music system. For eg, Adi tala consists of 8 aksharas(beats) and 8*4= 32 matras for the catusra nadai. In some schools of music (UKS sir's school is one such I believe....Nagraj sir can kindly confirm), the matra is referred to as akshara and the akshara is referred to as a beat (tattu). This is why some confusion arises.
So, it is always better to talk in terms of matras as it is universal.
In JB sir's example, it is actually 8 3/4 aksharams 0r 35 matras. This understanding is universal. As JB sir has pointed out, another school might refer to it as 8 3/4 beats or 35 aksharams (though this is specific to that school only and not universal)
The above is my understanding of laya. It might be wrong too. Leave it to the experts.
-bhaktha
AFAIK, an akshara corresponds to one beat, however long the duration might be. The duration of the akshara is decided by the no of matras in it. Hence a matra is the smallest unit of time in our music system. For eg, Adi tala consists of 8 aksharas(beats) and 8*4= 32 matras for the catusra nadai. In some schools of music (UKS sir's school is one such I believe....Nagraj sir can kindly confirm), the matra is referred to as akshara and the akshara is referred to as a beat (tattu). This is why some confusion arises.
So, it is always better to talk in terms of matras as it is universal.
In JB sir's example, it is actually 8 3/4 aksharams 0r 35 matras. This understanding is universal. As JB sir has pointed out, another school might refer to it as 8 3/4 beats or 35 aksharams (though this is specific to that school only and not universal)
The above is my understanding of laya. It might be wrong too. Leave it to the experts.
-bhaktha
Last edited by bhaktha on 27 May 2007, 11:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9467
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Balaji, is there a difference between mAtrA and matra in definition?
This interchangability between schools of matra and akshara is, to me the most horribly confusing thing.
Certainly, as I learnt it, and as Bhaktha says it, matra is the pulse, the single syllable, the subdivision of the beat which is akshara. To repeat: in chatusra nadai, there are four, or a multiple thereof, matras in one akshara; in adi talam there are eight aksharas.
As Balaji-sir and my guruji were classmates, I would expect their understandings to be pretty similar, although I know Balaji had exposure to teaching from another guru also.
"Leave it to the experts," says Bhaktha. But Balaji is an expert!
My other great confusion (only arising, obviously, when the theory is translated into English) is the use of the word beat. Bhaktha touches on this too, referring to tattu. But a wave is a beat too; as a finger counts! Kriyas are just ways of representing different beats in the tala. The beat is there whatever its kriya.
I have a vague recollection of hearing akshara and aksharakala used interchangeably, but I don't even begin to understand, let alone feel able to answer a professional on such a thing.
This interchangability between schools of matra and akshara is, to me the most horribly confusing thing.
Certainly, as I learnt it, and as Bhaktha says it, matra is the pulse, the single syllable, the subdivision of the beat which is akshara. To repeat: in chatusra nadai, there are four, or a multiple thereof, matras in one akshara; in adi talam there are eight aksharas.
As Balaji-sir and my guruji were classmates, I would expect their understandings to be pretty similar, although I know Balaji had exposure to teaching from another guru also.
"Leave it to the experts," says Bhaktha. But Balaji is an expert!
My other great confusion (only arising, obviously, when the theory is translated into English) is the use of the word beat. Bhaktha touches on this too, referring to tattu. But a wave is a beat too; as a finger counts! Kriyas are just ways of representing different beats in the tala. The beat is there whatever its kriya.
I have a vague recollection of hearing akshara and aksharakala used interchangeably, but I don't even begin to understand, let alone feel able to answer a professional on such a thing.
Last edited by Guest on 27 May 2007, 12:29, edited 1 time in total.
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bhaktha
- Posts: 323
- Joined: 15 Jan 2007, 23:02
Indeed JB sir is an expert no doubt, but what I meant was that if artistes from other scools could also join in, we would be exposed to a variety of views.nick H wrote:"Leave it to the experts," says Bhaktha. But Balaji is an expert!
My other great confusion (only arising, obviously, when the theory is translated into English) is the use of the word beat. Bhaktha touches on this too, referring to tattu. But a wave is a beat too; as a finger counts! Kriyas are just ways of representing different beats in the tala. The beat is there whatever its kriya.
.
What I meant by the word beat is not just what it signifies but also other angas of a thalam. Sorry...I wasn't very clear in my previous post
-bhaktha
Last edited by bhaktha on 27 May 2007, 15:30, edited 1 time in total.
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ram
- Posts: 705
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:48
My understanding from some of the old books I have read (will search and quote references later) and from Sri Akella Sarma ji's texts is that (in olden times) if we take one Avartanam of Adi tALam, it has 8 units (or beats) and each unit (or beat) has 4 aksharams in catusra gati, 5 aksharams in kanDa gati, 7 aksharams in misra gati and so on. So one avartanam of Adi tALam in catusra gati will consist of 8 beats or 8x4 = 32 aksharams. The same avartanam of Adi tALam in kanDa gati will consist of 8 beats or 8x5= 40 aksharams.
A mAtra roughly corresponds to the duration of a second. Thus depending upon the speed of our rendering of Adi tALam, it could have different number of mAtras. For example it could be put in such a way as to have 8 mAtrAs in one Avartanam in one speed, 4 mAtrAs in one Avartanam in a speed double of that etc.
Sri S. Rajagopala Iyer's "Sangeetha Akshara Hridaya" says that in present times, people have taken a kriyA (equated to a beat) to be an aksharam and mAtrAs as sub-divisions of the aksharam. Thus many present day schools say that 1 avartanam of Adi tALam has 8 aksharams and 8x4 = 32 mAtrAs.
The above is my interpretation of the different books I have tried to read, most of which are highly confusing and never try to express anything in a language that is easy to understand. I could be wrong. I would request knowledgeable people like Sri Akella Sarma ji to clarify.
Wish we had something like Sri Subbarama Dikshitar's Pradarshini for tALAs too that served as the golden reference and everyone followed the same vocabulary
As an aside, I have many a times wondered what is the need for writing a book if the author were to just quote some difficult shlokAs verbatim and not explain them in lucid terms ..... that is what many of the books on tALAs do ...... but then that is probably a topic for separate discussion.
A mAtra roughly corresponds to the duration of a second. Thus depending upon the speed of our rendering of Adi tALam, it could have different number of mAtras. For example it could be put in such a way as to have 8 mAtrAs in one Avartanam in one speed, 4 mAtrAs in one Avartanam in a speed double of that etc.
Sri S. Rajagopala Iyer's "Sangeetha Akshara Hridaya" says that in present times, people have taken a kriyA (equated to a beat) to be an aksharam and mAtrAs as sub-divisions of the aksharam. Thus many present day schools say that 1 avartanam of Adi tALam has 8 aksharams and 8x4 = 32 mAtrAs.
The above is my interpretation of the different books I have tried to read, most of which are highly confusing and never try to express anything in a language that is easy to understand. I could be wrong. I would request knowledgeable people like Sri Akella Sarma ji to clarify.
Wish we had something like Sri Subbarama Dikshitar's Pradarshini for tALAs too that served as the golden reference and everyone followed the same vocabulary
As an aside, I have many a times wondered what is the need for writing a book if the author were to just quote some difficult shlokAs verbatim and not explain them in lucid terms ..... that is what many of the books on tALAs do ...... but then that is probably a topic for separate discussion.
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear brother-members, (By reading your posts I have myself become confused and, for some time, forgot even what I already know!) It is always better to call it ‘Amsha’ in our Indian terminology and ‘unit’ in English but not Akshara. The actual meaning of Akshara is which cannot be destroyed and as we are used to render 1-akshara or syllable in this duration of ‘unit’ we are also calling it Akshara. The duration occupied by an Akshara, whether it be 1-unit or 2-units or 3-units and so on, should be called Aksharakaala.
While the Aksharakaala is the duration of a letter, the ‘beat or Ghaata or the waving-hand or Visarjita or others’ are the Kriyas or acts in the rendering of the Tala. In respect of Tala if we treat each Kriya of Adi-tala as 1-unit, in total, there are 8-units in this Tala and if we render 1-akshara per Kriya in the 1st degree of speed, in total, there will be 8-Aksharas in the Avarta, 16-Aksharas in the 2nd degree and 32-aksharas in the 3rd degree in the Avarta. Maatra, which at one time had a varied value of carrying 4 or 5 or 6 units, later, having become finally standardized and consists of 4-aksharas occupying roughly the duration of a ‘second’, is a measuring aid of the duration, just like inches and feet in measuring the length. We need not call it Maatra if either the carrying Aksharas or the duration of a ‘second’ varies in any case. But, I have never read that Maatra is the sub-division of Akshara. I have spent 4 decades of my precious life towards the extensive research of ‘Talaprastara’ only and having referred to all our GOLDEN treatises, at last, found that it is suicidal to follow any one of them. Even though all these treatised have never explained the subject in lucid terms, only by the grace of the Almighty, I could solve the entire topic in such a manner that I could even correct the in-accuracies of the
great authors of the past.
The summing up of ‘t-d-g-n-t’ carrying 4+2+1=7 x 5= 35-aksharas (but not 35-maatras) is ok and we have to define this ‘in Chaturashra-jaati-triputa-tala or Adi-tala of Chaturashra-gati which is running in Maatrakaala i.e., 4-aksharas per second and 4-aksharas in the 2nd degree of speed I am going to render Khanda-jati carrying 4, 2 & 1-units each and a total of 35-aksharas by starting from the 8th-kriya leaving off 1-akshara in the beginning in that speed (or would you mind to have a short-cut - to render the same, take the number of Kriyas double the quantity of the value of the respective Jati, which is 5 x 2= 10-kriyas in respect of Khanda-jati, leave off 1-jati of the respective Jati i.e., Khanda-jati in this respect, in the beginning and start off). As many of the music Vidwans are bothered much about their ‘Lakshya’ only without taking proper care of ‘Lakshana’ but use the technical terms as they like this kind confusion arises. amsharma.
While the Aksharakaala is the duration of a letter, the ‘beat or Ghaata or the waving-hand or Visarjita or others’ are the Kriyas or acts in the rendering of the Tala. In respect of Tala if we treat each Kriya of Adi-tala as 1-unit, in total, there are 8-units in this Tala and if we render 1-akshara per Kriya in the 1st degree of speed, in total, there will be 8-Aksharas in the Avarta, 16-Aksharas in the 2nd degree and 32-aksharas in the 3rd degree in the Avarta. Maatra, which at one time had a varied value of carrying 4 or 5 or 6 units, later, having become finally standardized and consists of 4-aksharas occupying roughly the duration of a ‘second’, is a measuring aid of the duration, just like inches and feet in measuring the length. We need not call it Maatra if either the carrying Aksharas or the duration of a ‘second’ varies in any case. But, I have never read that Maatra is the sub-division of Akshara. I have spent 4 decades of my precious life towards the extensive research of ‘Talaprastara’ only and having referred to all our GOLDEN treatises, at last, found that it is suicidal to follow any one of them. Even though all these treatised have never explained the subject in lucid terms, only by the grace of the Almighty, I could solve the entire topic in such a manner that I could even correct the in-accuracies of the
great authors of the past.
The summing up of ‘t-d-g-n-t’ carrying 4+2+1=7 x 5= 35-aksharas (but not 35-maatras) is ok and we have to define this ‘in Chaturashra-jaati-triputa-tala or Adi-tala of Chaturashra-gati which is running in Maatrakaala i.e., 4-aksharas per second and 4-aksharas in the 2nd degree of speed I am going to render Khanda-jati carrying 4, 2 & 1-units each and a total of 35-aksharas by starting from the 8th-kriya leaving off 1-akshara in the beginning in that speed (or would you mind to have a short-cut - to render the same, take the number of Kriyas double the quantity of the value of the respective Jati, which is 5 x 2= 10-kriyas in respect of Khanda-jati, leave off 1-jati of the respective Jati i.e., Khanda-jati in this respect, in the beginning and start off). As many of the music Vidwans are bothered much about their ‘Lakshya’ only without taking proper care of ‘Lakshana’ but use the technical terms as they like this kind confusion arises. amsharma.
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priyamhn@yahoo.com
- Posts: 40
- Joined: 12 Dec 2006, 23:02
Sree Gurugi (As many of the music Vidwans are bothered much about their ‘Lakshya’ only without taking proper care of ‘Lakshana’ but use the technical terms as they like this kind confusion arises.) Please try to make unity .You are the only person whocan( dair to )do it .waitnng for your reply sir
Last edited by priyamhn@yahoo.com on 06 Jun 2007, 07:47, edited 1 time in total.
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear brother-member, priyamhn@yahoo.com, Anybody can only take the horse to the pond but cannot make it drink. I am now 70 and my age has not been permitting me to go through all our music books and learn as much as I can as I feel that what I have learnt yet is only a drop of this music ocean. I, myself, am unable to do what I want to but how can I make others do. It is not possible at all. Any person must have long lasting interest in learning things properly, in preserving our standards in these arts and do the needful on his own consciously. Of course, I can help anybody what I can if I am asked for. amsharma.
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priyamhn@yahoo.com
- Posts: 40
- Joined: 12 Dec 2006, 23:02
Sree Gurugi pl tel we have enough thalas compairing with other music prastharas but now Inindian music tradision we are not trying to use the aria that shown by our for fathers now a days our ASTHANAVIDWANS are also trying to promote that easy way .being a part of indian music tradition my work is to promot ("Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing. My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music),kindly reply
Last edited by priyamhn@yahoo.com on 20 Jun 2007, 07:42, edited 1 time in total.
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear brother-member, priyamhn@yahoo.com, Now, please tell me the Talas we are presently using and prove their authenticity mathematically and also name some Talas along with their authenticity which are shown by our fore-fathers and we are not using now. amsharma.
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Venu
- Posts: 18
- Joined: 09 Apr 2008, 16:55
Dear Friends, Sharing this composition which came to my mind just now.
A Percussion pattern (Thavil Sollus)
Adi Tala - Chturasara nadai - 3rd speed 2 Avarthas* (32*2)
Tha, Di, Thaka Thaka Junu Thom,,
10 3 13
Di, Thaka Thaka junu Thom,,
8 3 11
Thaka Thaka Junu Thom,,
6 3 9
4th speed Tha, diri Tha, diri Tha, diri Thaka junu kuku (9) Tha, (2) 11
4th speed Tha, diri Tha, diri Tha, diri Thaka junu kuku (9) Tha, (2) 11
4th speed Tha, diri Tha, diri Tha, diri Thaka junu kuku (9) 64
Ooops!!!!! I should have started as a new topic right ?
A Percussion pattern (Thavil Sollus)
Adi Tala - Chturasara nadai - 3rd speed 2 Avarthas* (32*2)
Tha, Di, Thaka Thaka Junu Thom,,
10 3 13
Di, Thaka Thaka junu Thom,,
8 3 11
Thaka Thaka Junu Thom,,
6 3 9
4th speed Tha, diri Tha, diri Tha, diri Thaka junu kuku (9) Tha, (2) 11
4th speed Tha, diri Tha, diri Tha, diri Thaka junu kuku (9) Tha, (2) 11
4th speed Tha, diri Tha, diri Tha, diri Thaka junu kuku (9) 64
Ooops!!!!! I should have started as a new topic right ?
Last edited by Venu on 12 Apr 2008, 11:15, edited 1 time in total.