Anga talam...

[chitrathiagarajan]

Can I get the details of this talam,Anga talam?
CT

[Nick H]

Anga is not a talam, it is a part of a talam

[mridangamkid]

Yeah that is what I though


Anga's are part of the thalam, such as Dhrithum, Anudhrithum, and Lagu

Dhrithum is the part of the thalam when you clap once and put your palm face up

Anudhrithum is just clap once

And lagu is a clap followed by counting with your fingers



So... and example would be a Chathusra Thriputa thalam (Adi Thalam)

It would start with 4 lagu's (Clap +3 fingers), then go to 2 dhrithums

Thisra Thriputa would be 3 lagu's (Clap + 2 fingers), and 2 dhrithum



Rupaka Thalam unabridged would be 1 Dhrithum and then 4 lagu's while abridged would be 1 anudhrithum and on dhrithum


One thing to make note of however is taht there are different symbols for each part. A lagu would be an "l" Dhrithum would be "O" and Anudhrithum would be a "U"

So Thriputa Thalam would be - l O O

while Rupaka would be - O - l

Jhampa is - l U O

Matya - l O l

Ata - l l O O

Eka - l

Dhruva - l O l l

In order to know how the actual thalam would go however, is determined by the jaathi, what ever jaati it is makes up how much lagu there are. So Thisra jaatihi would be a lagu of 3 (clap + 2 fingers) while Kanda would be 5 (clap + 4 fingers).


I hope I didn't make a mistake, I kinda rushed through this off the top of my head. Please correct me if I"m wrong.

[vasanthakokilam]

I have heard Prof. SRJ mention anga thalam. The context was about how to keep Rupaka thalam. People keep it as 3 beats and he mentioned something like "I do it the proper way as an Anga Thalam with 6 beats, 1 drutham and 1 laghu." I interpret what he said as 'anga thalam is a generic term to mean properly keeping the thalam by using the well recognized angas and kriyas as opposed to short cuts like the way people keep rupakam' and hence it is a generic name for the various thalas defined by the angas. I would also think the various chapu thalams would not be part of the anga thalam set.

[mridangamkid]

Oh I see, so anga thalam is the "proper" way as opposed to the shortcuts.... most notable being Rupaka.

Chapu Thala's are in a category of their own and don't follow the Dhruthum, Anudhruthum, and Lagu patterns.

[srikant1987]

Actually there are seven kinds of angas -- laghu, anudhrutam, dhrutam, and four others with names like kAkapadam.

We call tALas with these exotic angas as saptAnga tALas or just anga tALas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tala_(music)

[chitrathiagarajan]

Thanks Srikant1987.Your reference gives me the information on thalas of CM.
But what about chhanda talas of Arunagirinadhar?
From your reference,I gathered thereare 1500 anga thalas used in Thirupukazh.
Can you help me?
CT

[mridhangam]

Actually there are six angas. Anudrutam, Drutam, Laghu, Guru, Plutam, Kakapadam.


There are also variations to the angas that find extensive reading in Sambamurthy's Book Indian Music (Vol III i think). Druta Viramam, Laghu Druta Viramam etc etc. When you say viramam it means that one Anudrutam is added to it or in other words one beat is added to the Part.

Chitra Madam
you can also refer to my website where you have exhaustive information about talas, angas and kriyas and the if you dont understand a term you can always refer to the Glossary available there for easy reference.

One more information :
The thruppugazh talas are called "Chanda Talas" i think. I have never heard of Anga Talas as such. so if anyone can provide information on that i will be happy.

http://www.angelfire.com/mb/mridhangam

JB

[msakella]

Some people, unaware of the full details of ‘Talaprastara’, think that Samyuktangas like Druta-virama or Laghu-virama can be rendered like other independent Angas, Anudruta, Druta, Laghu, Guru, Pluta and Kakapada. When Sangita Kalanidhi Dr. Shripada Pinakapani rendered Sharabhanandana-tala along with all the Samyuktangas before me I have proved that any Tala having Samyuktangas should not be rendered and he agreed with my argument. In the same manner if anybody wants it I shall prove it beyond any doubt. Being unaware of this knowledge of ‘Talaprastara’ in full all the authors of the past, without any exception, right from Sangita Ratnakara and Samayasaara until Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshini, Gayakalochana, South Indian Music (of late P.Sambamurthy) and Sangeeta Saara (of Shri.S.R.Janakiraman) have written incorrect versions in their treatises and I am ready to prove their incorrectness at any time and at any place. amsharma

[msakella]

When I have gone through the link you have provided I, to my utter surprise, have found many of the technical-terms are either mis-spelt or mis-interpretted. For example while Kakapada is a full-nisshabda (un-sounded or soundless) Kriya or act it was furnished to render along with a beat (sounded Kriya) and while Prof.S.R.Janakiraman is used to say that all the Tiruppugal-talas are Chando-talas, in your site, all the 108-talas are furnished as Chando-talas. I hope, you will make the necessary modifications. amsharma

P.S: When you have spelt Drutam and Anudrutam properly even in your above post I do not understand why you have mis-spelt them along with others in your web-site.

[chitrathiagarajan]

msakella sir,
Is there a website which gives correct information about talas?
What are Chandha talas set for Tirupukazh by Arunagirinathar?
CT

[chitrathiagarajan]

I got some information from www.kaumaram.com on anga talam.
The verse charanakamalalayathai is set to this talam.
From the info given,it goes like this:
thaka thakita(3.5) thakita(1.5) thakata(1.5).
msakella sir, can you help me how this talam translates into cm tala scheme?
CT

[msakella]

Dear sister-member, chitrathiagarajan, Of, course, I have seen some web-sites relating to Talas. But, most unfortunately, none of them are upto the mark. Prof. S.R.Janakiraman once said that the Tiruppugal-talas are called Chanda-talas. At that time as I was researching upon ‘Talaprastara’ I did not pay much attention. Even later when I met him I forgot to ask him about them. In one way as Talaprastara is the only origin of all rhythmical forms of the universe, of course, I can very well have the origin of any rhythmical form if I need unlike any other person. But, I do not know in which context they have been named after Chanda-talas, by whom and what is the procedure to obtain all these Chanda-talas they follow. I shall be happy if any knowledgeable person enlightens me in this regard. amsharma

[msakella]

Dear sister-member, chitrathiagarajan, You wrote ‘thaka thakita (3.5) thakita (1.5) thakita (1.5)’. I am unable to make it out properly. In it ‘ thaka thakita is of 5-units value but you gave (3.5), for next thakita is of 3-units value but you gave (1.5), again the last thakita is also of 3-units but you gave (1.5) - from which I am not getting any clear picture of the Tala. Please try to make it more clearer to anwer it. amsharma

[chitrathiagarajan]

Dear sister-member, chitrathiagarajan, You wrote ‘thaka thakita (3.5) thakita (1.5) thakita (1.5)’. I am unable to make it out properly. In it ‘ thaka thakita is of 5-units value but you gave (3.5), for next thakita is of 3-units value but you gave (1.5), again the last thakita is also of 3-units but you gave (1.5) - from which I am not getting any clear picture of the Tala. Please try to make it more clearer to anwer it. amsharma

Sir I just copied from the site kaumaram where Tirupukazh verses with the talas and chandam are given.I am still a leaner.
Sorry sir I made a mistake.The thakathakita is 2.5
And in the Tiripukazh 'arumukam' set to kantachapu it is given as 2.5.
Can you read tamil?
Then you can check it out in the site www.kaumaram.com.
There is a mp3 recording of Sri Ragahavan who teaches Tirupukazh.
The english transliteration does not give the tala and chanda details.
A lot of anaga talas with combination are given there.
One more is angatala 9.
It is given as
thakathakita 2.5 thakita 1.5 thakadhimi 2 thakadhimithaka 3
CT

[msakella]

Dear sister-member, chitrathiagarajan, In such case, thakathakita, even though there are 5-units it has been furnished as 2.5 i.e., half of 5 which is 2.5 and in the same manner the remaining others also are furnished half of the actuals. Thus the total is 2.5 + 1.5 + 2 + 3 totalling to 9. Among them even though the ‘2’ and ‘3’ being the figures without any fractions could be rendered the remaining ‘2.5’ and ‘1.5’ should not be rendered as they have fractions as per the general rules of Tala. According to the general rules of Tala all these Chando-talas are ‘Samyuktanga-prastaras’ derived in the process of Talaprastara which should not be rendered at all like ‘Sharabhanandamna-tala’. If you are interested to know the full details you must go through the thread of Talaprastara and learn the things in it. amsharma

[vasanthakokilam]

CT: I wanted to check out what you are referring to. Can you give the direct link to the page you are linking at. Just the URL www.kaumaram.com to the site does not help since it is a site with a lot of content. Or, let us know how you get to the page you are referring to from their home page.

[chitrathiagarajan]

CT: I wanted to check out what you are referring to. Can you give the direct link to the page you are linking at. Just the URL www.kaumaram.com to the site does not help since it is a site with a lot of content. Or, let us know how you get to the page you are referring to from their home page.

VK,
http://www.kaumaram.com/thiru/nt0216.html
takes you to caranakamalalaythai page .It is set to Angatala 7.
http://www.kaumaram.com/thiru/nt0031.html
takes you to iyaisai page which is set to Angatala 9.
CT

[cmlover]

The chranakamlaalaym anga taalam is
2 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 = 5 1/2 (note the errror of CT calling it 7)
Without loss of generality it can be characterized as
5 + 3 + 3 = 11
This can be put as
one khanda laghu (5) + two (dhrutam + anudhrutam) (6) = 11
This can be notated as
| O U O U
There is no such taalam with such angas in our shUlaDi sapta taalas.
Of course the count of 11 can be madeup within the sapta talas in several ways
eg., mishra laghu (7) + two dhrutams (2+2) =11
which is
| O O known to us as mishra jati thripuTa taalam.

On the other hand the flow of the sahitya will not smoothly fit this taala.

Hence Guruji has named this 'anga tala'.
These taalams are necessary to sing Thiruppugazh fitting to the sahityam.

Perhaps a laya specialist (Sarmaji) should comment....

[mridangamkid]

So then would l O U O U be an actual thalam? Or is this just in theory

[msakella]

Of course, as a knowledgeable person of Talaprastara and also as a dutiful soldier of Talaprastara, without hiding or running away I shall certainly comment in this connectioin. In the absence of the knowledge of Talaprastara many may not be able to follow or understand what I tell but our brother-member, sbala, having recently gone deep into this subject more than many people, will be able to follow and understand. I shall be happy if he also gives his opinion in this respect.

I do not know which Guruji has named them as ‘Anga-talas’ but I appreciate him if he comes out and enlightens me in respect of the rudiments of his theory.

According to the prevailing rules and regulations we already have in respect of Talas the Kriyas having the value of rounded-off-figures (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc.) only can be considered but not fractional-figures (1½, 2½, 3½ etc.) at all. Such rhythmical forms do not fit in any kind of rational theory at all.
I do not and cannot think that these taalams are necessary to sing Thiruppugazh fitting to the sahityam. Some people want to earn easy reputation by doing some kind of funny acrobatics and this act comes under this category only. amsharma

[chitrathiagarajan]

Sharma sir,
There is a book on Tirupukazh by name 'Tirupukazh Isai Vazhipadu'.
It is in tamizh.
This book gives explanations on talas used by Arunagirinathar.
Can you get someone to translate these details for you sir?
I am just a novice in this field,sir.
I came across these details first time while learning some Tirupukazh verses.
Thus I posed this query in this forum.
CT

[msakella]

Dear sister-member, chitrathiagarajan, Thanks a lot dear. If it is not inconvenient to you please try to send me the English translation of the details of Talas to my email address ‘msakella2002@yahoo.co.in’/ ‘msakella2002@gmail.com’/ ‘msakella2002@rediff.com’. amsharma

[cmlover]

Dear Sarmaji

The syllables given by Guruji Raghavan for the song is:
takatakita takita takita
which makes it one khanda chapu + two tishra chapu
In other words it is a folk music mixture of talas. Do enlightern whether such miixtures are permitted in CM. In fact 'chapu' talas themselves are outside the purview of tala system but are fully accepted and if so why not a mixture of them!

Guruji Raghavan is a highly respected laya expert who introduced these concepts via notating Thiruppugazh for CM singing without destroying the 'chandas' structure laid down by Arunagirinathar.

[vasanthakokilam]

Some people want to earn easy reputation by doing some kind of funny acrobatics and this act comes under this category only. amsharma

Having heard about Shri. Raghavan and known a few people who have learnt Thiruppugazh under him, atleast in this case, you can be sure that his goal is not to earn easy reputation. He has been doing this for quite a long time and not too many people outside of a certain circle know about him.

[sramaswamy]

Some people want to earn easy reputation by doing some kind of funny acrobatics and this act comes under this category only. amsharma

Having heard about Shri. Raghavan and known a few people who have learnt Thiruppugazh under him, atleast in this case, you can be sure that his goal is not to earn easy reputation. He has been doing this for quite a long time and not too many people outside of a certain circle know about him.

My parents as well several Delhites who have learnt from him can vouch for that. He is referred to as Guruji only. Even the name "A.S.Raghavan" is used very rarely! He used to lead the Thirupugazh Padi Vizha in Delhi's Malai Mandir every year. He is now old and had retired in Madras. His disciples have now formed "Thirupugazh Anbargal" and they are spread out all over the world.

http://www.geocities.com/balu.iyer/guruji.html

[msakella]

Dear brother-members, cmlover & vasanthakokilam, I have never heard of Poojya Guruji Shri Raghavan and I never intend to belittle or defame any of our great people and I am nothing before any one of them. I always beg anybody’s pardon if any of my wordings hurt them in any way at any point. Now-a days, every Tom and Dick is trying his/her level best to get easy popularity within no time and, at this juncture, it has become very difficult to find even any genuine person among this bunch of cheaps. So, in that due course, I casually wrote in that manner but not with any wrong or bad intention at all.

Even though I have arrived at the saturation point of Talaprastara having no further passage, still, I always try to learn some un-known thing, if at all there is, to move further. In the same manner I am always very eager to learn the un-known things in this Tala-chapter through somebody or other.

In general, we are used to link any other Tala than the usual ones to folk varieties.
Such folk varieties are not available at all in Talaprastara and all the varieties of Chapu are also part of the main stream but not out of the main stream at all. In which way every figure has its own identity in mathematics each and every rhythmical form, though we may not be aware of it, has its own identity in the universe. But, as per the very-high-disciplined rules and regulations we already have, though many are unaware of them, among all the rhythmical forms of the universe, some of them only should be rendered and the remaining should not be rendered. Even though all these rhythmical forms of Tiruppugal are also already in the main stream of rhythmical forms some of them should not be rendered and the remaining others only can be rendered. That is why they are very intelligently named after ‘Chando-talas’ but even without any specific name like others. And even Sharabhanandana-tala is one such rhythmical form like these Tiruppugal-chando-talas which should not be rendered. But, being unaware of this fact, even our Shyama Shastry, the Great, has even named it and rendered. Being unaware of the relative rules and restrictions, there is nothing wrong if a common man treat them as general Talas and call them folk-varieties. However, I am interested in going through all these varieties of Tiruppugal-talas if anybody kindly provides them to me. amsharma

[msakella]

Most unfortunately, the rhythmical form of our brother-member, priyamohan, doesn't even fit in the main stream of rhythmical forms having fractional figures in it. amsharma

[chitrathiagarajan]

Dear sister-member, chitrathiagarajan, Thanks a lot dear. If it is not inconvenient to you please try to send me the English translation of the details of Talas to my email address ‘msakella2002@yahoo.co.in’/ ‘msakella2002@gmail.com’/ ‘msakella2002@rediff.com’. amsharma

The tamizh to english translation will take sometime Sharma sir.
I will send you the same asap.
CT

[msakella]

OK. Please do the needful at your earliest. amsharma

[msakella]

Dear sister-member, chitrathiagarajan, Later I have gone through the 2nd Volume of ‘Sangeeta Saaram (Telugu)’ written by renowned Prof. S.R.Janakiraman in which 11 Tiruppugal-talas are funished by him. But, as he had furnished the numbers of units (but called as Aksharas) and some names (either old or named by himself) but not the Angas at all. Unfortunately, in the absence of the knowledge of ‘Talaprastara’, he wrote that these Talas are created by Arunagirinadhar himself even without furnishing any proof.

In fact, for example, if any person claims that he himself had created the figure ‘12345’ everybody laughs at his foolishness. In respect of these rhythmical forms also the same thing happens but the person having the knowledge of ‘Talaprastara’ only laughs at him and all others honour him with great publicity and titles like ‘Sangita Kalanidhi’ or Padma Vibhooshan or Bharataratna or Kanakabhishekam (of course, not with Sunakabhishekam) or make him T.T.D.Asthana Vidwan or some other Asthana Vidwan or with a purse containing One Lakh Rupees or erect his statue etc., etc.

But I shall be happy if you try to furnish these Talas along with names and their constituent Talangas. amsharma

[arunk]

let us please stop this nonsensical name calling all in the name of "i am the only one in the world who knows xyz"

Arun

[msakella]

By the grace of the Almighty, having written three books, 1.Talaprastara Ratnakara (Telugu) / Indian Genius in Talaprastara (English), 2.Talaprastara of Nisshanka Sharngadeva’s Sangita Ratnakara-a critical interpretation (English) and 3.Systematisation of Prastara details of Deshi Talas, each one of its own kind, I do hereby declare that I am the only person alive upon earth knowing the full details of Talaprastara, the 10th element of Tala of Karnataka music. If any sensible person proves my statement false and whatever I wrote in respect of Talaprastara incorrect I am always ready to bow down to him/her in an open meeting of musicians, burn away all the remaining copies of my books and stop talking of this topic for ever. amsharma

[VK RAMAN]

msakella: Namasrakarams. We recognize your contribution to the carnatic music. You are always pushing rasikas to accept you as authority; it will not come nor will challenge elicit any response. We are grown up individuals and we need to be role models for younger generation, IMHO.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, VK Raman, Pranams. I did not toil myself physically and mentally continuosly for 4 decades in the strenuous research of Talaprastara with the intention to get money or fame or titles or honours or even recognition. I do never do anything for getting such mundane things. More oever, even though my pen and tongue are very sharp in reacting, I never want to belittle anybody as I always feel very little than anybody. Unless I am wantonly driven and pushed towards such things of challenging I never need to do such things at all. If things come to that extent I cannot but challenge not to save my skin but the prestige of the only rarest topic of our music, Talaprastara which I did so. Unless a person goes deep into waters he cannot and should not talk about the depth of it and if at all anybody, by any chance, talks he/she must be controled properly and taught a lesson to repeat the same never. As you very well wrote, we are grown ups and we always need to be role models for ever and I always toil myself, even at this age, to be like that only. Thanks a lot for your timely act of reminding me the same. amsharma

[chitrathiagarajan]

Sharma sir,
Please check your gmail.
CT

[msakella]

Dear sister-member, chitrathiagarajan, Thank you. Presently I am busy with my journeys to other stations and other engagements. After my return I shall be able to go through them and inform you. amsharma

[cmlover]

Dear Sarmaji
Wish you a great time in the company of our Rasika Forum members!

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, cmlover, Thanks a lot to all our members for their incessant appreciation and cooperation. amsharma

[msakella]

Dear sister-member, chitrathiagarajan,
In order to map the angatalas of Thirupukazh to the talas used nowadays,the
talas have to be set to dhuritha kalam so that the words in the verses and the meaning do not get distorted.
For instance, the angatala jathi, thakathakita thakita thakita are made of 5 ½ aksharas and can be mapped to dhurita kala thisra dhruva tala.
The Thirupukazh "avanitahnile"