Shivadasan and Srkris,
Interesting story and viewpoints. I often think about how it should have been in the days when the musical systems we know and are familiar with in their present form, were in their infancy. It should have been as filled with wonder and experimentation on the one hand, waiting to change from the old guard to the new, and on the other hand, steeped in a tradition as old as civilization itself, perhaps. At each point in history, these art forms we cherish - music, dance and literature have perhaps been as fecund, as open to change, as vibrant and absorbing influences as before. As Michael Wood said in one of his documentaries on India, "Golden ages are always in the past".
Balance sheet of our musical wealth seems in peril
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
Shivadasan,
1) The lesson in the story you have narrated is, mistake of appointing accountant, instead of estate manager! Stylists in Music, are like the accountant of the estate.
2) Quote" Constant comparitions, relation, fortified thought of unsurpassable( which leads to the statements -'One and one only' 'Not born before and not going to be borne, herein after-Na Bhooto, Na Bhavishyati), are the results of weakness of the mind-sence of insecurity or fear for the change( loss of memorable experiences, immensely atisfactory)". The fact is that Great Maestros, inspire and act as role models. Vidwans/Vidushis/Maestros, imbibing the greatness of their works, adding their own creative inputs, continue the tradition and become themselves Great Maestros. Undeniable fact is that enrichment and destruction happen, continuously and in perpetuity. The enriched knowledge, becoming the tradition, discards the destructive knowledge.
The attempts for new experience out of experiments, are always done, at all times. statements out of dismay, anxiety and disgust about the new trend is always made, deprecatingly. Quality imporvements are acknowledged, grudgingly. Quality deteriorations, always counted and highlighted.
I have many times heard the Great Maestros expressing happiness, at times wonderment, about the knowledge and skills of the younger vidwans/vidushis/maestros and declaring that rich legacy of music is assured of continuity and longevity. With out hype or nostalgia(for it's own sake), if we examine and analyse, truly, Great Geniuses and Great Maestros continue to come, ensuring enrichment.
I have experenced, knowlege, which was considered impossible or exclusive preserve of few in the older generation, becoming with relative ease, knowledge of the many.
Finally, I am confident that with focus on 'ruchi' ,'suchi', 'hitam' and 'mitam' by the present, immensely talented and successful practiotioners and performers, we will have problem of plenty.
It is now the times for performance of duties of rasika- by rasika, becoming more knowledgeable, attending, appreciating, supporting the truly meritorius, to ensure enrichment.
munirao2001
1) The lesson in the story you have narrated is, mistake of appointing accountant, instead of estate manager! Stylists in Music, are like the accountant of the estate.
2) Quote" Constant comparitions, relation, fortified thought of unsurpassable( which leads to the statements -'One and one only' 'Not born before and not going to be borne, herein after-Na Bhooto, Na Bhavishyati), are the results of weakness of the mind-sence of insecurity or fear for the change( loss of memorable experiences, immensely atisfactory)". The fact is that Great Maestros, inspire and act as role models. Vidwans/Vidushis/Maestros, imbibing the greatness of their works, adding their own creative inputs, continue the tradition and become themselves Great Maestros. Undeniable fact is that enrichment and destruction happen, continuously and in perpetuity. The enriched knowledge, becoming the tradition, discards the destructive knowledge.
The attempts for new experience out of experiments, are always done, at all times. statements out of dismay, anxiety and disgust about the new trend is always made, deprecatingly. Quality imporvements are acknowledged, grudgingly. Quality deteriorations, always counted and highlighted.
I have many times heard the Great Maestros expressing happiness, at times wonderment, about the knowledge and skills of the younger vidwans/vidushis/maestros and declaring that rich legacy of music is assured of continuity and longevity. With out hype or nostalgia(for it's own sake), if we examine and analyse, truly, Great Geniuses and Great Maestros continue to come, ensuring enrichment.
I have experenced, knowlege, which was considered impossible or exclusive preserve of few in the older generation, becoming with relative ease, knowledge of the many.
Finally, I am confident that with focus on 'ruchi' ,'suchi', 'hitam' and 'mitam' by the present, immensely talented and successful practiotioners and performers, we will have problem of plenty.
It is now the times for performance of duties of rasika- by rasika, becoming more knowledgeable, attending, appreciating, supporting the truly meritorius, to ensure enrichment.
munirao2001
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harimau
- Posts: 1819
- Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43
[quote="Shivadasan"]
Where have the masters who added new techniques of their own and enriched CM like flute Mali, Veena Balachandar, Madurai Mani Iyer, Palghat Mani Iyer, Pazhani Subbudu, T.Viswanathan, Malai Kottai Govindswamy Pillai, T.N.Rajarathnam Pillai, Malaikottai Panchami, Veena Sheshanna, M.S.Subbulakshmi, DKP and others, gone ? Is there any one to take their place ? Can any one even think of replacing MSG, Lalgudi and TNK and their tremendous knowledge of CM ?
There is a great deal of support for experiments in CM, Fusion, Duets with musicians of other systems, Duets with foreign instruments, bringing in elements of other systems etc. It is the case " the old order changing yielding place to new"
Where have the masters who added new techniques of their own and enriched CM like flute Mali, Veena Balachandar, Madurai Mani Iyer, Palghat Mani Iyer, Pazhani Subbudu, T.Viswanathan, Malai Kottai Govindswamy Pillai, T.N.Rajarathnam Pillai, Malaikottai Panchami, Veena Sheshanna, M.S.Subbulakshmi, DKP and others, gone ? Is there any one to take their place ? Can any one even think of replacing MSG, Lalgudi and TNK and their tremendous knowledge of CM ?
There is a great deal of support for experiments in CM, Fusion, Duets with musicians of other systems, Duets with foreign instruments, bringing in elements of other systems etc. It is the case " the old order changing yielding place to new"
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Harimau,
At some point of time, in the early part of the twentieth century, there was a fad for pictures of dogs dressed in human clothes, posing like humans do for a portrait. Not a pretty sight! This cat's playing reminds me of that. I don't think people protested then that they were being mocked at, seeing those pictures! Nor will musicians protest about this cat. This planet is big enough to accomodate us all, all the fads and menageries that come our way.
However, let us not confuse the freaky for art. kOlam and rangOli, maru tOnRi and mehndi can coexist, if they are not deviants from the cultural standards.
Just because new innovations do not appeal to us, let us not take offence to them. How tolerant our ancestors were, to allow the violin, a foreign instrument into CM which has now become an indispensable part of a CM concert!
Our personal taste lets us choose one artiste over the other, and let it be so but let us not get carried away to the point that we insult the new blood as if they are upstarts. Some of them have spent many years in music, evolving and creating new dimensions without damaging CM's structure and strength.
Munirao,
Just because I am open to creativity, it does not follow that I relish all kinds of fusion music. One can choose between gimmickry and music which seriously seeks to discover new venues in the revered old form. If our forefathers were not open-minded, CM would have had no significant growth. Funny, we are celebrating GNB's centenary, I am listening to Muttaiah Bhagavatar's SaravaNabhavA in sumanapriya now and we are concerned about safe keeping CM, fighting away invaders of a prurient kind!
At some point of time, in the early part of the twentieth century, there was a fad for pictures of dogs dressed in human clothes, posing like humans do for a portrait. Not a pretty sight! This cat's playing reminds me of that. I don't think people protested then that they were being mocked at, seeing those pictures! Nor will musicians protest about this cat. This planet is big enough to accomodate us all, all the fads and menageries that come our way.
However, let us not confuse the freaky for art. kOlam and rangOli, maru tOnRi and mehndi can coexist, if they are not deviants from the cultural standards.
Just because new innovations do not appeal to us, let us not take offence to them. How tolerant our ancestors were, to allow the violin, a foreign instrument into CM which has now become an indispensable part of a CM concert!
Our personal taste lets us choose one artiste over the other, and let it be so but let us not get carried away to the point that we insult the new blood as if they are upstarts. Some of them have spent many years in music, evolving and creating new dimensions without damaging CM's structure and strength.
Munirao,
Just because I am open to creativity, it does not follow that I relish all kinds of fusion music. One can choose between gimmickry and music which seriously seeks to discover new venues in the revered old form. If our forefathers were not open-minded, CM would have had no significant growth. Funny, we are celebrating GNB's centenary, I am listening to Muttaiah Bhagavatar's SaravaNabhavA in sumanapriya now and we are concerned about safe keeping CM, fighting away invaders of a prurient kind!
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
Before making conculsions and opinions, we should be clear, what are the Ultimate Goals of Classical Music. The Goals are- 1) Spiritual - attainment of SAT-CHIT-ANANDA 2) Entertainment.
Practitioner/Performer, seeking to entertain and satisfy the rasika, he needs total freedom for creative endeavor in offering music, new fresh, different forms of music, either with adherence to the tradition of classical excellence or with total freedom to experiment, breaking away from the tradition.
The great maestros refered by Shivadasan and others, chose the first goal of CM or offered to entertain, sticking to the tradition. Others have chosen to entertain, to please.
We, rasikas, should be clear, before making final judgment on the merits/demerits. If your goal is for seeking spiritual progress, encourage and totally support, such of those practitioner/performer, whose goals are for their own spiritual progress and attainment, through music. If you want music for physical pleasures-stress management, excitement, easy on appreciation and pleasing etc, you have to make choice on such of those practitioner/performer, who has mastered the technique and achieved popularity. Please do not mix up, be clear, seek, achieve and enjoy, what you want/desire.
munirao2001
Practitioner/Performer, seeking to entertain and satisfy the rasika, he needs total freedom for creative endeavor in offering music, new fresh, different forms of music, either with adherence to the tradition of classical excellence or with total freedom to experiment, breaking away from the tradition.
The great maestros refered by Shivadasan and others, chose the first goal of CM or offered to entertain, sticking to the tradition. Others have chosen to entertain, to please.
We, rasikas, should be clear, before making final judgment on the merits/demerits. If your goal is for seeking spiritual progress, encourage and totally support, such of those practitioner/performer, whose goals are for their own spiritual progress and attainment, through music. If you want music for physical pleasures-stress management, excitement, easy on appreciation and pleasing etc, you have to make choice on such of those practitioner/performer, who has mastered the technique and achieved popularity. Please do not mix up, be clear, seek, achieve and enjoy, what you want/desire.
munirao2001
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
srkris
About your reply'100', after careful fresh thinking on the subjects you have touched -
1) Nothing new can ever be created, without destroying "the old"
2) There is no enrichment, only transformation
3) We cannot create anything. We are not creators.
4) One can not accept the new, without discarding the old.
I am attempting to discuss these statements, in right earnest.
1) New experience/knowledge, arising out of creative thinking, can be with aim of - attempt at the critical analysis and negation of the existing and giving new thought, in it's place, attempt at using the existing, modify, refine, renew with added new thought, attempt at bringing new thought, not in existence. There is no necessity or compulsion for the destruction of the existing for creating the new thought.
2) The new experience/knowledge, with fresh and creative thought, adds and delivers higher value over the existing or independent of the existing, it is enrichment. Transformation is, only with shift in values or it's emphasis, with the new thought., over the existing.
3) The advancements in instinct and intution faculties of intelligent beings and the evolution history is full of proof of constant creative process and creation and the existence of created things.
4) One can definitely accept new, without any need for the rejection of the old. One can continue to enjoy the existing, while accepting and enjoying the new. The need for the discard of the old comes only with total dissatisfaction of the old and compelling need for the new. If the new delivers, total satisfaction with compulsion for the discard of the old and for the acceptance of the new, the old is discarded.
munirao2001
About your reply'100', after careful fresh thinking on the subjects you have touched -
1) Nothing new can ever be created, without destroying "the old"
2) There is no enrichment, only transformation
3) We cannot create anything. We are not creators.
4) One can not accept the new, without discarding the old.
I am attempting to discuss these statements, in right earnest.
1) New experience/knowledge, arising out of creative thinking, can be with aim of - attempt at the critical analysis and negation of the existing and giving new thought, in it's place, attempt at using the existing, modify, refine, renew with added new thought, attempt at bringing new thought, not in existence. There is no necessity or compulsion for the destruction of the existing for creating the new thought.
2) The new experience/knowledge, with fresh and creative thought, adds and delivers higher value over the existing or independent of the existing, it is enrichment. Transformation is, only with shift in values or it's emphasis, with the new thought., over the existing.
3) The advancements in instinct and intution faculties of intelligent beings and the evolution history is full of proof of constant creative process and creation and the existence of created things.
4) One can definitely accept new, without any need for the rejection of the old. One can continue to enjoy the existing, while accepting and enjoying the new. The need for the discard of the old comes only with total dissatisfaction of the old and compelling need for the new. If the new delivers, total satisfaction with compulsion for the discard of the old and for the acceptance of the new, the old is discarded.
munirao2001
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
QUOTE As many of the fellow members expressed dissatisfaction or changes for the better, in improvement of the present status of KM/CM/IM in their posts/replies and keenly and genuinely desire for the glory of KM/CM/IM, globally, I have taken the initiative for offering clarity and understanding on Tradition-Classical Excellence in IM, with humility. I have also urged for leadership and action, to achieve the ideal and the result. I am excitedly looking for total support of the majority of the rasikas, in quick time and in right earnestness. I have full faith and trust in the youthful generation for leadership.
Our present challenge is to take IM-both HM and CM to the masses".
Factually, with more than average intelligence, good education, making the better use of technological advancements, power of wealth creation, the reach going beyond geographical limitations, the present generation of artists and rasikas have immense power and demonstrated potential to enrich the Classical Excellence in tradition of IM, with clarity on Goals and Values of our rich IM heritage. Let us ideate and work out frame work for the success and total avoidance of failure of this MODEL event. The success of the event will give us many lessons and lead us to achieve our passionate innate desire for taking the IM to masses. Later we can focus on making the success of IM, at Global levels-truly.
I honestly feel that responses, decisions and actions of the members will prove how serious and committed we are. In absence, stark reality of having time engaging play and fun, without any will for serious efforts and actions by the members only will come out clearly and strike us!
I am optimistically, waiting for the response of the members, for the present.
As Vedanta urges, ARISE and AWAKE, rest will be done! UNQUOTE Why no takers for this idea and request , so far ?
Munirao2001
Our present challenge is to take IM-both HM and CM to the masses".
Factually, with more than average intelligence, good education, making the better use of technological advancements, power of wealth creation, the reach going beyond geographical limitations, the present generation of artists and rasikas have immense power and demonstrated potential to enrich the Classical Excellence in tradition of IM, with clarity on Goals and Values of our rich IM heritage. Let us ideate and work out frame work for the success and total avoidance of failure of this MODEL event. The success of the event will give us many lessons and lead us to achieve our passionate innate desire for taking the IM to masses. Later we can focus on making the success of IM, at Global levels-truly.
I honestly feel that responses, decisions and actions of the members will prove how serious and committed we are. In absence, stark reality of having time engaging play and fun, without any will for serious efforts and actions by the members only will come out clearly and strike us!
I am optimistically, waiting for the response of the members, for the present.
As Vedanta urges, ARISE and AWAKE, rest will be done! UNQUOTE Why no takers for this idea and request , so far ?
Munirao2001
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
srkris
Quote "I honestly feel that responses, decisions and actions of the members will prove how serious and committed we are. In absence, stark reality of having time engaging play and fun, without any will for serious efforts and actions by the members only will come out clearly and strike us!
I am optimistically, waiting for the response of the members, for the present."
munirao2001
Quote "I honestly feel that responses, decisions and actions of the members will prove how serious and committed we are. In absence, stark reality of having time engaging play and fun, without any will for serious efforts and actions by the members only will come out clearly and strike us!
I am optimistically, waiting for the response of the members, for the present."
munirao2001