On the Unsuitability of Western Instruments for Music of Any

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Feb 2010, 21:50

This is performed on a KORG X 50 instrument.

Goodness.

My formerly-strong views on keyboards and carnatic music are under now revision!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Feb 2010, 23:58

Thanks CML for your kind words. I mentioned it to Bebot and he is flattered

Thanks.

I listened to NSG Sahana again. His alapana brings out 3 or 4 different aspects of Sahana. When I listened intently, swara wise, most of it is still the same thing as in my bag of tricks but those subtle 'Eetram, irakkam, azuththam, jaru and jantai' make a whole world of difference. In some cases all them appear together for a fleeting second to produce the overall gestalt effect and that is when the true Sahana reveals herself.

Of course we all know that but realizing it while trying to reproduce it on an instrument create a sense of awe about CM and puts me in place. A humbling and awesome experience indeed.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Feb 2010, 00:22

VK
better listen to MDR especially his Giripai - masterpiece. His slow pace will be ideal for Bebot.
Try it and let me know..

rajeeram · Post by **rajeeram** » 09 Feb 2010, 00:52

vk and arunk, you guys are getting to be good bebotikas:-) Pretty good!

nick H, I concur! This Ranjani by Sathya has such a great overall feel to it that I do have the satisfaction of listening to a wholesome Ranjani. When Durmargachara started though, the first couple of sangathis seemed to be missing a bit of continuity, having discrete notes, but once the other sangathis rolled in, it was great. Excellent job overall.

A little digression here. I saw these interesting videos and this was the first time I had seen western music attempted on Veena.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8l20VKiOFU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNXRZqPMkOs

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Feb 2010, 01:07

CML: Yes, MDR is the master at Sahana. You have reminded me to get back to MDR's Giripai. Trying his interpretations on any instrument, that is a project in itself. If I pick up something from him that can be reproduced well, I will let you know.

rajeeram. Thanks. And thanks for the veena links. When I listened to the first one, initially it sounded like a fast paced Indian song a variation on CM. Towards the end it had a bit of Bluesy Rock feel to it but overall it sounded Indian to me. I do not know why they call it Western. Reminded me more of Rajesh Vaidya. The second one is of course WCM but I could not hear much of Veena over the sounds of violin and Piano.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Feb 2010, 02:47

nick H wrote:tkb... I'm confused... is this played on the continuum instrument?

That is a great compliment to Sathya. Nick, Sathya has been doing this level of CM on keyboard for a few years now.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Feb 2010, 02:59

I agree and I want to congratulate Satya for this marvellous achievement. If he can do this with the regular Keyboard think what he can do with the conntinuum. Apparently only ARR has it in India. Of course the price is quite steep too! I am sure Satya will get it soon and that will be beginning of a new era in CM!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 09 Feb 2010, 07:29

tkb wrote: and 2. with enhancement team performing in a private function.
http://www.mediafire.com/?dgndvgm2ynd

TKB - I listened to this and it is wonderful. Am very glad Sathya is finding the Korg X50 useful!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Feb 2010, 07:36

vk - good job on the sahana. You can be more bold on ri - i.e. besides the caressing slide down

Arun

tkb · Post by **tkb** » 09 Feb 2010, 10:27

Thanks to Mr Mohan who actually was the one to introduce Korg X 50 to my son. I still remember carrying 30 kg Korg Trinity Pro then a 10 kg Korg Tr and now Korg X 50 a great boon which weighs just around 4 kgs! This is not just good on the weight aspect but also has become the fond instrument for my son now! Also this was taken as a cabin baggage in all the flight when we recently had a two month tour overseas.

nick h - my son was thrilled to have this from you and was so happy to have people like cml, VK, arunk, mohan and rajeeram say good words on his efforts.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Feb 2010, 11:53

Thanks Arun. You are right. The jeeva swara R needs to be given much more prominence. I have some ideas on the Ascent. On the descent should stopping on R and going back up provide for that prominence? ( like P M G M R.... G M P ? )

Also, the way I played that P M G M R itself is the bebot take on something I stumbled upon a while back when I switched my S to lower P on the flute to facilitate the P M G M R smooth transition. I liked how it sounded to me though I do not hear it being done that way by artists. When I ported that to the bebot, it attained its own personality

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Feb 2010, 13:42

Well, tkb, I have almost none of the knowledge of the other contributors to this thread, especially about raga, but I know that I have never before really enjoyed carnatic music and keyboards, even harmonium. This is not against keyboards, as I enjoy harmonium in Hindustani music. I'm all for technology, though, and this seems to be a special kind of keyboard --- and played with a very nice touch. All I can say is that it "sounds right" to me.

I think that the Bebot samples would sound right too, if it was not for the fact that my PC won't play Quicktime sound properly.

vganesh · Post by **vganesh** » 09 Feb 2010, 14:10

@ VK & ArunK, good attempt on Bebot. But the sound seems to be non-continous. I am not able to express myself. It is like you chant some veda ( like purushasuktham) which has a high, normal and low for each letter. VK Sir, you can upload a flute play also on Sahana to have more insight

But is it possible to attempt fast notes on Bebot?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Feb 2010, 14:11

Nick: My bebot mp3 files were uploaded to esnips which serves them through a flash based player. Those sounds do not come out right on your PC?

vganesh: Here is kuntalavarali on bebot played fast. I posted this link earlier: http://www.esnips.com/doc/835730fa-eb51 ... halavarali

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Feb 2010, 16:27

Arun's samples are Quicktime; now I realise I didn't try yours <Blush>

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Feb 2010, 21:27

Ah... understood. How presumptuous of me

No problems!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Feb 2010, 22:13

I guess Bebot will excel in slow-long notes and hence can contour gamakas very nicely (even innovations are possible!). Hence ragas like AB/RG/Sahana/.. are good candidates. There must be some way of mollifying the 'attack' phase. Since I don't have it I can't experiment

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Feb 2010, 07:51

vganesh wrote:But the sound seems to be non-continous ... But is it possible to attempt fast notes on Bebot?

Regarding "sounds being non-continuous' - One problem is that in order to sound two notes without any pause (as opposed to a slide from one note to another note i.e. as one continuous thing), you have to either
1. take the finger off the touch screen and then touch back which of course causes a pause
(or)
use another finger which is sort of hard because of limited real estate. Also to touch the same note (say ss or rr), your second finger has to be above or below the first one which is cramped and besides it also affects the timbre (timbre changes in the vertical direction which is quite unique advantageous in other situations but not for this case).

Fast notes (cm style i.e. with continuity, gamakas) I guess are possible but I would wager extremely difficult - I dont think I can pull it off even if with lot of practice

Arun

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 10 Feb 2010, 10:03

Arun - I'd like to honour you with the title "Bebot Chakravarthy"

vganesh · Post by **vganesh** » 10 Feb 2010, 17:16

@VK Sir; It is defintely fast. And it is nice to hear.
Probably Sri.ArunK and you should work on making it much better. Probably it may become another acceptable instrument for CM like Mandolin. Keyboard. Then in years to come we can see another round a hot discussion in this forum under the topic 'Bebot and CM'

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 14 Feb 2010, 05:52

Another music device for the Iphone - the Akai IPK25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-2Psn-p7VQ

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Feb 2010, 04:27

Mohan - it looks like that product may not be available (anymore) - atleast the link from the youtube video doesnt seem to take me anywhere useful (unless I missed something), and also on googling I see that some people have wondered if the product is really available.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Feb 2010, 04:43

vk/cml/mohan.

Here is the next one: http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/bebot4.mp3

I hope you can get the raga

Not very happy with this one. Big thorn on my side is that I basically cannot get the kampita gamaka on the ga right (although ni wasnt as hard for some reason). I think the primary problem is that I cannot the instrument to "decay" (or release) the way I think it should. It is too loud and sustaining, and then shuts off completely and thus quite unnatural - so you either have a long sustain at the end or a short and immediate cut off. I have both, and I hate both equally

. Although I think this is better handled by the whistling sound I picked for the earlier one.

The shakes on the ga also don't fluctuate in volume the way I think they should - they sound mechanical, but they also require more precision than what I can achieve. A(because in that one up/down changes timbre in a way that also affects volume). I also think a couple of phrases could be excessive liberties - the "sound" itself (see below) is certainly non-traditional - but hey bebot is a vishamakkAran

Oh, also the two sounds are not "as-is" from bebot but are processed (on a mac). The first one goes through a realtime effect (to basically get a sound a bit more familiar to us). The second one has more processing - there is actually a realtime effect pedal for this effect that is used for guitars (i forget the name), but for this case, I made a copy of the track, "detuned" a tad and transposed the pitch.

And finally, this was a tailored effect (piece-meal and stitch together in smaller portions). But at this point, with so many attempts, I am beginning to play most of it in one shot (with many mistakes of course!)

Arun

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 15 Feb 2010, 05:00

arunk wrote:Mohan - it looks like that product may not be available (anymore) - atleast the link from the youtube video doesnt seem to take me anywhere useful (unless I missed something), and also on googling I see that some people have wondered if the product is really available.

Arun - it is a brand new product at the musical instrument tradeshow - NAMM. It may be available for purchase but I have seen other demos of it eg. http://www.soundonsound.com/news?NewsID=12497

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 15 Feb 2010, 07:06

arunk, is it possible to operate this with only one finger? Or can we use many? Because the jantai at ni for reetigowlai will be much better if you played a lower anuswaram like dha in between the ni's.

tkb · Post by **tkb** » 15 Feb 2010, 21:14

Interesting to not only know new instruments and the desire to see their application in Indian Music, particularly in this forum.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Feb 2010, 23:10

Arun, good job on the reethigowla. yes, the limitations of the bebot constrain the true expression. But in spite of that, for the most part, RG shows up well. The pre-processed version, especially at the beginning, had a nice feel to it.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Mar 2010, 10:35

vganesh wrote: @ VK & ArunK, good attempt on Bebot. But the sound seems to be non-continous.
VK, you can upload a flute play also on Sahana to have more insight

Here is my flute version of sahana: http://www.esnips.com/doc/1e3f56d7-8b58 ... naAlapana3 ( you can contrast this with my bebot sahana: http://www.esnips.com/doc/e63f625a-d212 ... hanaBeBot2 )

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Mar 2010, 19:29

This is a MUST listen by all amateur flautists!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Mar 2010, 16:42

Spring cuckoo,
Just getting back into the stream after my travels, and such welcome notes from you indeed, as I am back home at last.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Mar 2010, 19:00

Is it the home away from home

Or like the cuckoo taking over the home of the crows you nest in

Are you having a sahana kriti in the upcoming release which VK can try?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Mar 2010, 21:59

Home is where you make a home. The home you left behind is home too

Above all, home is the place where people you care about live

Funny you should ask. A sahAnA song is very much there in the ones I have given to Sumitra. Hope it will make it to the final list. It is a song anyone can sing because there is no mention of any particular deity in it. Would love to hear VK play it. 'samayamidu unaip pOtRip paNindiDum samayamidu' is how it goes.
Sorry, I'm digressing.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Apr 2010, 08:51

I got my iPad today. Bebot plays excellently on the device. And as expected it is much easier to play given the much bigger real estate. My playing quality did not improve of course

(if you feel jealous about me having an iPad, you should

it is just awesome. This forum posts display on it like any other computer ( in fact much better ) and the browser is just blazingly fast. . Many carnatic videos in YouTube are visually stunning on its high resolution screen. I got it for work related purposes but if I do not use it for other purposes, I will be doing a disservice to technology

)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Apr 2010, 02:33

I found another good app for the iPad called JamPad. Here is a single shot recording of 'Variations on a Shankarabharanam theme' using this app on the iPad. Chords and Beats provided by the app. It was played on the fly without any prep, so please tolerate the lapses. You will know what theme I borrowed once you hear it!!

http://www.esnips.com/doc/6dff01ee-3ce0 ... anamTheme1

An idea for a short tune born while playing the above one....

http://www.esnips.com/doc/eff25225-2f9b ... hamsadwani

My playing on this thing produces only elevator muzak type tunes!!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 05 Apr 2010, 15:14

vk - Similar to the great Ariyakudi you will be credited with establishing the Carnatic music iPaddhati

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Apr 2010, 15:50

Brilliant, Mohan

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 05 Apr 2010, 23:39

tkb wrote:Interesting to not only know new instruments and the desire to see their application in Indian Music, particularly in this forum.

I was wondering why we have to go even as far as "Western" instruments (violin, mandolin, clarinet, saxophone, keyboard) to test suitability. There are some fine "Indian" instruments (sitar, sarod, sarangi, shehnai) that have not been put to use effectively in the service of CM. Here, for example, is "girirAjasuta" played on the sitar. Sounds good to me even if a purist may not accept it as an authentic playing of the composition.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/875cb655-198c ... raja-sutha

It is not wrong or bad or trivial or meaningless, just different and vive la difference!

-Then Paanan

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 05 Apr 2010, 23:42

vasanthakokilam wrote:I got my iPad today. ...I got it for work related purposes but if I do not use it for other purposes, I will be doing a disservice to technology )

indeed! I feel bad for you.

-Then Paanan

tkb · Post by **tkb** » 27 Apr 2010, 16:22

On this subject interested members can listen to the concert recording under serial number 032 & 033 of www.sangeethamshare.org/sathya The artist has performed under serial number 032 -performed at villiwakkam krithis in ragams - Naatai, Manirangu, Vasantha, Chandrajothi, Hindolam, Bhairavam, Bagyashree & suruti. Under 033 - concert at Thiruvarur krithis in ragams Gowla KalyanaVasantham Bhairavi poorvikalyani, Jaganmohini, Harikambodhi & Sindhubhairavi and add their comments on this subject.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 12 Jul 2010, 09:49

Vk, hope the Ipad is going well.

I have uploaded a couple of clips (pantuvarali alapana and swaram) from my last synthesizer concert. They are available under http://www.youtube.com/user/mohanayyar

tkb · Post by **tkb** » 12 Jul 2010, 12:45

mohan

just saw the clippings and are sounding good.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Jul 2010, 21:04

Mohan, good job. They sound excellent.

duff777 · Post by **duff777** » 31 Mar 2012, 04:04

Alois Haba - Suite No 1 for quarter-tone clarinet & quarter-tone piano, Op 24

rasikas.org

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