Ragas without shadjam?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Sep 2010, 01:49

OK, good. Then I can see how your visual software may have led you in the direction of a different tonic since it is probably not good at latching on to the background sruthi. In either case... here is my follow up thought..

We can not expect the listener/audience to listen to the background sruthi for the tonic reference. Since my swara id skills are very limited, I had to struggle a lot to absorb the background sruthi and keep it in my mind while listening to Arun's piece. Given this, omitting Sa completely from a song runs the risk of unstable tonic reference, even in the presence of strong background sruthi. The listener needs to be reassured of the tonic by singing the Sa ( and aligning to the sruthi ) which gives them the necessary auditory clues to cast the sounds into the raga they know. Without that, they may latch on to any consonant swara as the Tonic, especially if that is held on for a while. I think this is what Arun was theorizing also which I understand better now.

Having established the firm concept of the tonic in the listeners' minds, the artist can then take some liberties of singing Sa-less phrases for a while, even skipping Sa while crossing octaves but that can not last too long, they have to come back and sing Sa once again.. So a complete raga without Sa at all, though theoretically sound, does not look like a stable raga as perceived by the listener.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 Sep 2010, 01:51

cml - I understand. One does what one has to do. As I said I am amazed at your confidence

ok - here is another - http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/sansa2.mp3

Again, guitar - not much ttempted to give carnatic feel - also more rough on the edges (=> faults). But I do give resolution at the end. The question is did the original "raga" (or flatter version of it) apparent from the start? Did it go off somewhere in the middle.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Sep 2010, 09:55

Sounded like Kalyani in some ( or many ) places.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 05 Sep 2010, 12:21

Arun:
I too heard Kalyani. Wonder if you can try (sa-less) Lathangi next.

Btw, I got to listen to your earlier clip - it had a strong Hamsanandi feel for me.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 Sep 2010, 19:22

Ok that worked better

- I consciously avoided using pa as rest too much and instead focussed on ma and ni - maybe that is the reason my ears didnt resolve that much to either ri or pa (both of which have their major-thirds and fifths appear) - and perhaps why results were better. But pa does provide "some" relief - and I guess if I hovered a lot it could have been different.

But the place where I across to higher octave and following is where I find the deviation w.r.t kalyani a lot. It could be the absence of sa, but also that in combination with absence of gamakas.

r-t: Lathangi is going to be difficult. First, I, as a player must be able to maintain the raga flavor in my mind for this to have any hope of mild success. And in case of Latangi, I lose it completely with this when I take sa out

(I can maintain only when complete mgr and then sa). Not as intimate with that raga as some others. Also, in my initial experimentation, the raga which resulted must be the modern version of ancient yAzhmuRi paNN because i broke my guitar string

(actually no, I bumped the guitar at an odd angle and the string broke). I need to restring it today or play it a lower octaves which is possible.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Sep 2010, 00:02

Arun
I agree that was Kalyani notes with strong emphasis on the prati madhyamam. As a final resolution you did land on the shadjam

Since the gamakams were lacking and as you traversed mostly the madhyama sthayi I could not enjoy it as Kalyani but more as a 'tune'.
Don't blame me for stating with confidence since I state plainly what I observe without any whitewash! I enjoy your experiments since they are highly educational. What is the fun in education if your student always agree with you

Better to break the guitar string than your fingers

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Sep 2010, 00:25

>Ok that worked better

Three things:

First, Arun's playing ability to bring out CM ragas ( or approximations of it ) on the guitar. I think that comes through very well and the melodies are very enjoyable.

Second, our ability to recognize those tunes and map it to the ragas.. We had questionable success on that.

Third, about this thread itself, what is the objective of these experiments? Is it to see if we have a different melodic feel by omitting Sa? Have we achieved that? Or we are saying that even without Sa, we all could identify an existing raga that was in the mind of Arun when he played it?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Sep 2010, 01:15

[quote="vasanthakokilam\First, Arun's playing ability to bring out CM ragas ( or approximations of it ) on the guitar. I think that comes through very well and the melodies are very enjoyable.
unquestionably. But also like Pitchappa pitching in..Let me also include your Flute excursions
Second, our ability to recognize those tunes and map it to the ragas.. We had questionable success on that.
Yes. That is expected since we are dabblers! But highly educational. We are breaking new grounds.
Third, about this thread itself, what is the objective of these experiments? Is it to see if we have a different melodic feel by omitting Sa? Have we achieved that?
Yes partly. For some ragas where sa is the jiva swara we generate weird sounds but is interesting and worth exploring..
Or we are saying that even without Sa, we all could identify an existing raga that was in the mind of Arun when he played it?
No! Arun is not trying to test us. He is quite objective but still at the experimental state testing various resting swaras. Some of the melodies are very pleasant and novel
[/quote]

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 Sep 2010, 03:04

Thanks guys but you should not illusions that was just a free flowing thing. It took many takes and end result is a patch of many takes (Garageband ubayam). And the fact that the tune is pleasant is more to do with the raga than with the player.

Also, my attempt at "testing" was the first one - where I tried no sruthi, then different sruthis etc. You all know how that went

. I wise up since then.

ok. Take 3. Chances of success with this mystery raga has been predicted by (now, jealous) Pitchappa as bleak

! I agree. The tune (although I actually like it not to toot my horn) is lets us say disjointed at places

http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/sansa3.mp3

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Sep 2010, 04:41

...a delightful lathangi, I am sure.. The over use of kaakaLi Nishadam is very pleasing and elevates the tension. Final resolution of the shadjam sounds like the pianist. finish.
Love the 'tune' though the attempts at the gamakam on the gandharam is commendable..

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Sep 2010, 07:16

I say 63 also.. Not because I sensed 63 because I do not have a good conception of 63, but based on the second quadrant sounding like kalyani and the third quadrant reminding me of SPV (the D1->N3 jump) and then looking up the chart to arrive at 63.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Sep 2010, 21:31

Curiously I too had the kalyani feel but the D1 pushed me to 63..
Neither have I heard much of it except the PSI marivere..

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Sep 2010, 22:59

As we ponder these deep aspects, here is a humorous interlude.

Which mp3 music player finds it natural and comfortable playing all the experimental clips in this thread?

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 06 Sep 2010, 23:17

I was able to hear Lathangi quite clearly. Arun - your guitaring skill is quite impressive! Hope you are pursuing this seriously?

vk wrote:Third, about this thread itself, what is the objective of these experiments? Is it to see if we have a different melodic feel by omitting Sa?

If, e.g., Chittaranjani is essentially Kh Priya without the upper Sa, are we allowed to name these sets of notes (without Sa) as new ragas?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Sep 2010, 04:06

That worked better than I expected

-

r-t - I used to play guitar (western stuff - rhythm guitar i.e. chords) a while ago i.e. pre-carnatic era of my life. I never spent enough effort honing playing melodies then, and thus now w.r.t CM (besides I find it easier to sing than play CM on the guitar). Even now cannot play 2 phrase continuously without mistakes. Like I said this pieces you hear while they may give the appearance of one continuous 2-min exposition is in reality a patch work of many separate takes.

btw, chittaranjani has the sa pitch i.e. in the middle octave. That is a huge difference with not including sa pitch at all.

vk - i know the player

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Sep 2010, 04:11

>>Which mp3 music player finds it natural and comfortable playing all the experimental clips in this thread?
>vk - i know the player

The genesis of the humor was from you ( as you know, anything more I say will give it away )

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Sep 2010, 04:27

pitchappa?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Sep 2010, 04:37

No. There is no commercial mp3 player called pitchappa.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Sep 2010, 04:41

Although my reference was through an author called George R. R. Martin (Fantasy)

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Sep 2010, 06:06

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 08 Sep 2010, 01:21

btw, chittaranjani has the sa pitch i.e. in the middle octave.

Yes, I think I did mention it eschews the upper Sa.

What I was getting at was that if dropping the higher Sa can result in a new ragam, surely we can call another scale that drops the lower Sa also as another new ragam?

(of course, I am also thinking of scenarios with vakra scales, and shadava/audava ragas - all minus shadjam.)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Sep 2010, 01:59

I meant that there is a big difference (w.r.t perception) between including a pitch only in one octave vs. completely omitting the pitch.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Sep 2010, 05:35

Arun
Let pitchappa have a shot at chittaranjani leaving out the lower sa as well!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Sep 2010, 05:41

appa emit no sa as on time appa !

(whatever way you look at it

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Sep 2010, 10:10

This thread gave me the idea for this piece, though it is with Sa.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/228457d7-9b56 ... sthetics-2

This is not a quiz or a test.

How does this sound?
Does it sound familiar?
Also, do you hear anything new? ( if possible, let me know the time segments ).

If needed, I will write what this is about.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Sep 2010, 18:00

Sahana based I bet. But I hear anya swara like R1 coming in in phrases like 'N3SR1G3'.
I do not have a clue as to what you are trying to prove?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Sep 2010, 19:43

Not sure but to me it sounds like you start from mid-pa and going higher with perhaps Latangi from P to G3' overlapping with Sahana from R2'. So more generally, two ragas mixed but individually confined to specific regions of the melodic range?

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Sep 2010, 22:15

OK, good observations... ( CML, there is no R1 unless it slipped in unintentionally )

I will wait for r-t, then tell you what I was trying. ( definitely not to prove anything.... but stay tuned )

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 10 Sep 2010, 23:17

VK - I could hear sahana phrases throughout the clip, mixed with what sounded like... kalyani?

I wonder if the resting note is what is different in this clip?

Honestly, I must admit I am not sure! It felt like you were doing something innovative, but I couldn't figure out what.

Please elaborate.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Sep 2010, 00:35

>I wonder if the resting note is what is different in this clip?

Yes. I will get to that below.

OK, all of you felt there is Sahana but something else is going on..

First, this is not that different from Arun's three clip experiment or the other ones Uday did in the sruth bedam/graha bedam context, though my objective was slightly different.

I essentially played my stock sahana phrases ( the limited set I know ) but with the Ma as Sa, essentially turning it into Shankarabaranam scale
but with the full-on sahana gamakas ( limited by my skills ). I did not want any confusion on what the tonic was, so there is
back ground sruthi ( probably not loud enough ) and I indicated a Sa Pa Sa at the beginning.

In addition, I introduced an intentionally non-sahanish phrase with that P-D-N3-S and turned it into the refrain and a resting note on that S. So hopefully, 'Sa' was very clear.

With that base, I essentially played Sahana. ( I only know a few prayogas which I try to milk them hard and you
all have listened to that before, hope that did not make you all polluted experimental subjects

)

BTW, is 'S- N2 - R - S' a characteristic phrase of Sahana? It is sort of symmetrical to P-M-D-P which is quite a beautiful sahana.

I am curious about the resemblances you heard with Lathangi and Kalyani. Hope it is not due to hearing M2 but due to some prayogas..
That will be interesting to dig a bit deeper.

This was a single shot thing: Idea formation, playing and recording. So I did not know what will come out in the end.
When I heard the recording,
I heard a lot of shankarabaranam in that S-Ni3-D-P and Kurinji like vibe in that S-R-G-R-S and S-G-R-S etc.. I do not know if those are all
valid Kurinji phrases but the gamakam heavy usages ( derived from the sahana style of playing ) reminded me of Kurinji. And I heard
Sahana of course and in some places it looked like I over played the sahana hand.

In Sahana, I do not think people stay long/karvai on Ma. Since I was doing that ( in my Sa ), r-t observed that my resting note is different.

Though this sounds like a graha/sruthi bedam experiment, that was not quite my objective. I wanted to see if the Sahana rasa and
aesthetics get shifted to something else entirely when the tonic is shifted ( either to an existing melodic motif or a new melodic motif ).

I also read that HM musicians sometimes invent ragas using this technique. And some speculative thought that this is how our ancient ancestors
discovered new ragas and their gamakas. ( I know they derived scales that way, why not ragas as well was my thinking ). Not that any new raga was born in this case...

It is related to this thread in one sense. Other than that forced refrain that rests on Sa, the rest of them pushes Sa to a second class citizen.
It is just touched while in passing. This is an automatic effect of playing the sahana phrases with gamakas.
The tonal center for the most part is not Sa, in addition to being treated as a second class citizen.

What is fascinating is this: The tonic is obviously there, there is no confusion about Sa when it is played. So N3 is there and not N2.
But we all heard Sahana without any doubt. Did you hear Sahana even in phrases that involve N3
as in that gamaka heavy S-N3...-S-D-N3-P?
That is actually the crux of the matter for me.

Given the info above, I am curious to hear your comments and observations.

Some questions

- Did you sense sahana in the first 2 minutes?
- Did you not sense Shankarabaranam or Kurinji or one of those Shankarabaranam janyams with a similar S'bharanam vibe?
- What did that gamaka heavy : S-N3...-S-D-N-D-P sound like?
- What did that P-(N3)D-N3-S sound like?
( both of the above are there in the beginning as well as plenty throughout )

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Sep 2010, 01:14

I sensed latangi because p d1 n3 s r2 g3 - because latangi is more familiar to me than sarasangi, and we dealt with latangi here

I did not sense Sankarabharanam or kurinji. Nor did I sense Sahana in the beginning. It was ambiguous for a few seconds and then resembled latangi and from then non P to G3 (and thus p d1 n3 s in any direction) reminded me only of latangi.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Sep 2010, 01:32

Some quick observations as I have to listen more carefully with your comments.
Definitely M2 is there intentional or non intentional. It is not doing a damage but possibly the reason for lathangi being heard (I didn't).
You are dwelling too much on M1 which I don't know is kosher with sahana.
I did not hear kurinji in spite of your N3.
Repetetive sahana phrases which reinforce its presence dominating anything else.
Sparing use of the pancamam but perhaps M2 is helping in its place

The gamakam on ri is mild; it can be stronger for sahana..
You do not use the mantra sthayi at all which is very much needed for a full exploitation of sahana.
On the whole there is something new but sahana comes out loud and clear!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 11 Sep 2010, 02:44

VK - very interesting post. It will take me some time to read and digest it!

All this discussion on sahana prompted me to do a bit of (re)search. And I came across this gem (the carnatica site has similar articles on other ragas also): http://www.carnatica.net/newsletter/sah ... letter.htm

The article talks in some detail about the allowed prayogas etc of this raga. E.g. Ravikiran states: "In Sahana, phrases of ascent will not sound nice if ended in M and no phrase will sound good if it culminates in G in either direction."

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Sep 2010, 03:49

Arun: Interesting that you did not hear Sahana. That is a good data point. For me, I did not hear it in the lower sthayis but heard it in the higher ones. I basically have three weapon in Sahana, Pa-ma-ga-ma-ri(ga)ri-sa , pa-ma-da-pa. and the execution of 'R' in the ascent with a curved 'sa-ga-ri'. With the shift of sa to ma, that ma-ga-ma-ri-sa became S-N3-S-D(N3)D-P which did not sound sahanish to me but something unfamilar to me. Question: Which raga has that prayoga with such a gamaka?

P-M-D..-D of sahana became R-S-G..-G and I think I played it that way but did not sound Sahanish. But I probably was not too careful, I may have simply done S-G..-G in some places which is not the same thing.

The (S)(G)RG became (P)(N3)D2S which had a little sahanish tint initially, but given the kArvai on Sa, that also went away. r-t, what ravikiran wrote there is true. Both M and G are important swaras but one does not rest on them.

What gave me the sahana feel is, I played P-M-D-P in this shifted Sa which mapped to S-N2-R2-S. I am not sure if the latter belongs to Sahana but somehow in spite of the shifted Sa, that P-M-D-P still produced the Sahana feel. Which is strange indeed.
The other places I felt sahana is, when I played R2-G3..-R2...-S in the shifted Sa.. That maps to sahana P-D-P-M which is OK in sahana, I think. But it is the execution which gave that feel.

BTW, I did not intentionally play D1. May be the execution of D2 as P-N3-D2 gave that feel. I also got a bit Lathangi after you pointed out. I think that is mostly that N3-S-R2. BTW, that stock phrase, in the sahana context, is borrowed from from "E Vasuda" ( R..G-M-P -> D2..N3-S-R2 )

Here is the story on why I can not play Mandhra Sthayi sahana in this experiment. Follow me on this convoluted sequence of shifts of fingering and tonic.

On the flute, with regular fingering I can not play sahana to my satisfaction. That M1-G3-M1-R2 is one tough cookie to play with regular fingering. So for my own satisfaction, I shift the usual S to the lower P position. That is, a 5 Kattai flute that I normally play becomes 1.5 kattai. Then I have some fun with sahana ( though others say it sounds very sleep inducing ). Because the lower P position is now my S, I do not have much scope to go lower since that is another tough region on the flute to play below that point. ( I can probably manage 1.5 semi tones below that but not consistently well )

Ok, if you had followed me on this so far, I play the sahana with S in the traditional Pa position. This makes the S of regular fingering 'M1'. That makes M1-G3-M1 relatively easy. Now there is a set of finger movements to make it sound like Sahana with the new position for S. Let us call it "Sahana Mechanics in C#". Now for this experiment, I simply shifted to the original Sa but played the same 'Sahana mechanics in C#' ( as blindly and as faithfully as I could ). And as I wrote above, I introduced the refrain with a kArvai on S as the only departure. What does shifting to the 'new Sa' but still play the Sahana Mechanics mean? I set the sruthi box to G instead of C# and play exactly that 'Sahana Mechanics in C#'. For the player, it is more mental than physical but the 'melodic' anubhava is so different from Sahana even while I am playing.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Sep 2010, 19:43

I listened again and now I dont know why I sensed a D1 flavor leading to latangi

- although I still dont hear sahana in that part. I still sense it some what in slide down to pa but perhaps not as strong as I thought I did before.

Interesting experiment.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Sep 2010, 20:49

Arun: "I still sense it some what in slide down to pa"... Which one, latangi or sahana?

BTW, what does 3:45 to 3:53 sound like to you all?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Sep 2010, 07:02

I meant a tinge of D1. 3:45 onwards there is a bit of sahana but only in the ma-da equivalent, when you come back down, it is not there.

BTW just SN3SD2... can be part of kannada. Maybe the raga you were looking for is kannada. I think PMGM\\\R ... of sahana => R'SNSD.... of kannada ) - although the gamaka on dha of kannada is not what you play now - but I think you can play the ri of sahana a way that maps to a reasonable dha for kannada. Also the M-D of sahana does have S-G3 in kannada but I think it goes sgmr... (and thus md...np... => i dont know if that can be so sahana - i am thinking may be there)

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Sep 2010, 11:37

Arun, OK, got it.

I listened to a few songs in kannada after you mentioned it. They are all sung too fast for me to grasp the distinctive melodic motifs. Finally stumbled upon Jayanthi Kumaresh's veena rendition of idhEbhAgyamu. That holds some promise. I will have to listen more.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Sep 2010, 21:01

Arun
since I am still a dabbler I am permitted to ask these questions. How do you know which phrase belongs to which raga? Is it in any book? I know SSP is cited as a reference at times but it is not complete. Is it from the varnams which are fully notated? Or is it purely kELvi gnaanam which requires a prodigious swara sense! I would appreciate your answer as well as your own approach. Thanks..

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Sep 2010, 22:26

cml - in my case it is a combination of what I have learnt (so far) + what I can perceive. When I started learning which was way after I was a passionate rasika, it was wonderful to know which swaras mapped to the phrases I knew to hum. Then as I mentioned earlier, from listening to kalpanaswaras I was able to expand a bit on that knowledge - over time as I was learning I also gained the ability to discern swaras from the tune - this is still a work in progress but it is improving.

In this case, for some reason I remembered SSI's swaras for SrI mAtrubhUtam (nsd....) - and just by singing I was able to sort of build a melodic contour for kannada (I am not super familiar with that raga although it is one my favorites).

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Sep 2010, 00:34

Thanks Arun
Just tell me whose kalpana swarams were most helpful in this respect? I am sure you will mention
Alathur; Who else?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Sep 2010, 05:46

How do you know which phrase belongs to which raga? Is it in any book?

I searched around and found the following info.

1) Check out this link: http://people.rit.edu/pnveme/ragaindex.html

2) Prof. SRJ's Ragalakshanangal [tamil] 3 vols by prof SRJ ( http://carnaticbooks.com/product_info.p ... cts_id=809 )

3) 'Ragas at a glance' by Prof. S R Janakiraman - Covers lakshanas of 300 ragas (http://carnaticbooks.com/product_info.p ... cts_id=311 )

4) Raga in Carnatic Music by S Bhageyalakshmi

These are referenced in this thread: http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11036

I have not read any of this, except for occasional glances at the link item 1 above.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 13 Sep 2010, 19:35

cml - do you mean for kannada or for generally building knowledge of which phrases belong to which ragas?

kannada - as I said it was SSI - but before that I was enamored by a rendition of SrI mAtrubhUtam in a very early commercial release of TMK (only song - no alapana, swaras).

For kalpanaswaras as a way to build knowledge, I would say anyone but more so in slower speed (so Alathur would be tough for this

). But this also works only if you also can correlate/internalize the phrase in question.

One way (which I do use) is to listen to an krithi or alapana and focus on the specific small pieces of the alapana which give a strong/maximum flavor of the raga to you. Many times it would be 4-5 seconds within a phrase (which may happen many times). This again works best for slower sections - and thus slower ktithis, and of course alapanas. See if the same/similar phrase gives you the same strong flavor of raga in other renditions. You then internalize/etc. to have a good idea of the part in mind (hum a few times along, hum by your self). Then you hunt for it in kalpanaswaras - again slower speed would be easy. Chances that such a phrase is one of the signature phrases of the raga is probably high since it is one that gave a strong raga flavor. Once you connect with the kalpanaswaras - voila - you have it

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Sep 2010, 20:15

Thanks Arun for sharing your ideas. I know it works since you are the living proof!
It is intutively in agreement with my ideas too. But my age is against me unlike you for retaining the music in memory

I more or less can learn the swara pattern from 'good' kalpana swaras. But I am totally lost in aalaapana since the notes therein are not explicit. Just as the notes are not explicit in akaaras. But in akaaras one can do the subtle gamakas and pack them with lots of notes whereas in swara singing the swaras being discrete are 'crude'. It is like analog vs digital. It is the subtle anuswaras that give the beauty which you exquisitely capture when you explain at times and I get bowled over! Perhaps Vk can capture them by playing on his flute but not I since I can only use the Keyboard/harmonium. Is there some way?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 14 Sep 2010, 02:53

Getting swaras from alapana without a working understanding of raga is quite hard. Keyboard/harmonium arent good for this because you cannot test slides - which is key (even in guitar slides are more useful than string bends - bends are limited on that instrument and of course need more fine control also).

Anyway, here is a "experiment" on the possible mapping of sahana to kannada when you take the ma of sahana as sa of kannada.

http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/sahana_vs_kannada.mp3

The sahana is at G sruthi - and the phrase combinations I have tried is

r.....
mgm r.....
pmgm r....
gmp..mgm r....

I have added a sa the end

The ri is very approx - partly due to my inability, but mainty because I wanted to keep it somewhat simple for this. The gamaka on ri here goes to ga i.e. G3.

Now if you take the ma of Sahana as sa, the G sruthi becomes C sruthi and this is where kannada maps to. I have first played a simple aro/avaro derivative at the beginning to change the mood.

Now the above phrase in this sruthi becomes
d....
s'ns' d....
r'sns' d....
ns'r'...s'ns' d....

and then i have added a kannada descent of pmg...mrs to sa. I could have simply perhaps added a pa to be consistent with sahana too I guess.

The first attempt uses da with gamaka up to ni (i.e. equivalent to the sahana gamaka on ri up to G3) - but that sounds a tad odd to my at times, but maybe passable at other times. And second attempt up to sa. This sounds ok - but the guitar approx is bad. I tried this because I think there is more assertiveness to kannada da and maybe goes to sa most of the time (not sure - looks like both upto ni and both upto sa are ok and so may be allowed).

Also I would think in the above phrases there is assertiveness needed in more places (nokku) - e.g. on ri as well as ni.

Of course there are mistakes etc. in guitar playing (stray sounds, approximations).

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Sep 2010, 08:54

Thanks Arun. Very good attempt on guitar and explanation. Your 'dha' of kannda sounds closer to home than the 'ri' of sahana but then I do not know exactly how the Ri has to be played on the descent in sahana.

The kannada phrases have similarity to the kAnaDA phrases too though the swarasthanas are different. Sahana also shares that similarity with kAnaDA with swarasthana differences. So it is probably not a surprise that sahana and kannada are sort of compatible on a sruthi/graha beda of this sa-ma kind. But then the Aro/Ava of sahana and kannda seems tobe similar except for the N swarasthana difference. Bus listening to the ragas separately do not reveal any simiarity. But then intonation differences are what make for raga differences.

HM folks probably would find this all quite natural.

One question. In Sahana, gmp..mgm r.... is a dominant characteristic phase. How about ns'r'...s'ns' d.... in kannada? Is that a pattern that brings to people's mind the raga recognition in a major way? Or is it the P M1 G3 M1 R2 S ( same as sahana ) but played with different gamakas? Or even P M D2 P M1 G3 M1 R2 S

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 14 Sep 2010, 18:41

Yes the ri on sahana was a crude approx. I wanted to use the bend rather than slide because I thought it would capture the required smoothness better but when descending from ma, it should probably originate from ma (so sort of like m\r/g\r/g\r....) but to do that as a single bend in guitar is hard. It is possible with slide but getting the correct dynamics is hard. The slide works better for something like the kannada dha (where I have used the slide).

There are indeed structural similarities between the ragas you mention. Although I am not that familiar with it, one key difference is in kannada the ga is a much stronger swara than ri, whereas in sahana it is the opposite. Also, I have read that some people even interpret the ga of sahana as an "in-between" one i.e. not too characteristic of the strong G3 in other ragas (of HK and Sankarabharanam), and not too characteristic of the G2 in Kharaharapriya ragas.

The nsr...s (or even dnsr...s) with the long ri - not sure if it is ok in kannada. But a nsg...mrsd.... (with long ga) seems more characteristic of the the raga. But in Sahana pmgmr~~~ is more apt - and I would think pmg....mr~~~ with the long ga seems inappropriate.

Also in kannada, ga is flat and also ri is flat (except nokku/emphasis maybe) but in Sahana ri is shaken. And like I mentioned, in kannada, it looks like the dha is an assertive strong swara. But in Sahana I think it flat (but ni i.e. N2 takes the gamaka).

So similarities at the skeletal/structural layer of swaras (indicating common source or shared creative inspirations) but the muscle layer of gamakas and intonation and usage adds a lot of differences.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Sep 2010, 22:20

>So similarities at the skeletal/structural layer of swaras (indicating common source or shared creative inspirations)
>but the muscle layer of gamakas and intonation and usage adds a lot of differences.

Indeed, very much so.. Parikkar quotes Pandit Jha
"ucchAraNa bheda se rAga bheda" & "chalan bheda se rAga bheda'.
( uccaraNa - intonation which I think covers gamakas, nokku, anuswaras etc., chalan - skeletal phraseology ).
Swarasthanas are a close second, not withstanding the greatness of the melakartha classification system.

Arun, I am curious about what you say about Sahana 'r2' on the descent. I can never get that to sound right. On the ascent, I play the 'R' as '(S)(G)R' as a curve, modeled after how E vasuda starts. But I have heard some people bring out sahana with a different gamaka on R which is just beautiful. I could not tell if it is to be used in the ascent or descent.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Sep 2010, 18:41

Please point to some online sample that demonstrates what you state.

I am not sure what is right but 2 versions seem to make sense to me. One where it starts from ma, the preceding swara as a descent and then (slight) kampita with ga. The connection with ma maybe more about maintaining continuity and the descent here can be a caressing one. The other one is where ri is more assertive and so you break a bit after ma (i.e. no continuity) but then start from ri with an emphasis. Although here perhaps depending on the strength of emphasis you briefly "touch" even ma. Not sure. But this second version is what I tried (as an approx). Also, as you say I guess you could start from sa itself.

I tried some of these variations with my MIDI gamaka modeller - I will try to post some samples (although the digital artifacts of pitch bends spoil the show and so what I mean above may not be properly illustrated)

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Sep 2010, 06:10

Arun, those two variations make sense. Are will still talking about the 'Ma Ri' descent transition? When you wrote "you could start from sa itself', is that for the 'ri' on the ascent?

You asked for some samples. I looked for that elongated Ri with oscillation but I could not recall which one. The closest I found was this from Sri. Sivakumar's site for the sahana varnam sung by Ram Kaushik.

http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... ana-RK.mp3 ( audio )

http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... varnam.htm ( notation )

The last charanam, half way through

......S- R , G M P , ||

P M G M R , - D P M G M R ,- G M P |

N S ,- R G M P M D D N S R , R ,

There are various 'Ri' s here. The beginning and ending 'S R, R,' themselves sound different.
And, on the descent, I am now curious if the two varieties you mention are covered here.

( while looking for this, I noticed the P R2 prayoga. That sounds nice. I guess it is because it has the same relationship as M1 S which sounds nice too )