The idea of aesthetics as propounded by TMK

[Ranganayaki]

Dear Sri Vk, thank you for your kind words on and off the forum.

Ramamantra, thank you for your words, and I accept your point of view though I agree completely with VKokilam. The ridicule is fine, I can ignore how it feels and not even feel mad at you which is the case, but it does shut me up.

Thanks so much VKokilam, you helped.

Okaaay, I'm back, but I put up some links.. Not much to say beyond that.. except may be a reply to Sri VK which may come shortly. Will wait for other responses.

Thanks again.

[ramamantra]

But it is not easy to pull that off with a short remark like yours without it sounding like a ridicule unless you have a reputation for witty and clever one-liners.

This remark is a great model for a snide, really, and I suppose that's your idea of pulling a fast one (witty and clever one-liners and all). You say my remark was a snide. So, you follow it up with another? Great model for a moderator. Keep it up :-BD

[kvchellappa]

Is our not understanding the meaning and the singer not understanding the meaning the same? Did MS amma and so many others waste their time in trying to understand the meaning of what they sang?
I heard this said that the notations for the songs split the words distorting their meaning thereby showing that the composers did not care for the meaning. It is true music and its grammar take precedence over the syntax of the text, it only shows that meaningful words to match the grammar of a raga may be difficult to find, not that the composers did not care for the meaning. Is it all myth that the great composers were inspired to sing several pieces matching meaning and music and bhava, while it is true that 'ears and eyes have been added' later? Is truth intermediate rather than in the extremes?

[munirao2001]

kvchellappa Sir
Carnatic Music tradition/excellence demands importance and reverence to the words in the lyrics. This state of mind only can result in the rendition of saahithya bhaavam rest in the meaning. Artist is given freedom, in exception, to split for adhering either to the taala or for exceptional rasa anubhooti of raaga bhaavam. In such instances of high creativity, primacy is for raaga bhaavam over saahithya bhaavam but not in general or common practice. Practitioner and the discerning rasika can realize that in raaga bhaavam, sans saahithya, saahithya bhaavam is goohyam or secretive. Similarly, in saahithya, sans raga, raaga bhaavam is goohyam or secretive. This secretive and subtle presence is discovered by the creative artist and when they unravel, the beauty is established taking distinct form and quality for its enjoyment.

munirao2001

[kvchellappa]

That was helpful. Thanks.

[vasanthakokilam]

This remark is a great model for a snide, really

I think you totally misunderstood. It was not meant to be snide, clever or witty, or offered with my moderator cap on (I agree that part is not always easy to tell). Nothing serious. Anyway, we can move on but I thought I should clarify that it was just an expression of my opinion as to why the humor may have been lost in transit.

[vgovindan]

"rasa anubhooti"

kAmini vEsha dhAriki sAdhvI naDatal-
Emaina telusunA? ...... (rAmA nIyeDa prEma)

tana saukhyamu tAnerugakanorulaku
tagu bOdhana sukhamA?
ghanamagu puli gO rUpamaitE ......
.......... SiSuvuku pAlu kalgunA?(rAmA nIyeDa prEma)

(tyAgarAja kRti - kharaharapriya)

Is rasAnubhUti possible without actually getting into the mood (bhAva)?

Is musical exposition anything less than stage acting?

[hnbhagavan]

The technical details posted by honorable members are beyond my comprehension.But I do not subscribe to the view that concert format has any thing to do with aesthetics.
It does not mean that the concert format being followed from ARI days and followed by most of the musicians lack aesthetics.All the postings by members are interesting.

[munirao2001]

Rasaanubhuti emanates out of both the saahithya and sangita(raaga/svara) bhaavam. Poet kindles, evokes the internalized vision in the form of akshara/word(s) to externalize the vision of beauty. Beuty is frozen in stillness of the akshara/word(s) and dumb, with only inner eye vision of the beholder or rasika. Sangitagjya/creative musician perceives the beauty in the stillness of the word(s). Gets excited or inspired, uses the saahithya bhaavam to get the insight of secretive and subtle musicality embedded, creatively gives the movement to the saahithya bhaavam by sartorial and ornamental raaga/svara bhaavam and offers clear vision and enhanced beauty for consummation by the rasika(s). Also the sense of mind engulfed in higher creativity leaves the scaffold of saahithya bhaavam, envisions raaga bhaavam in all its glory and skillfully unravels the internalized vision for the rasika(s), the rasaanubhuti of externalized vision of beauty.
Akshara/word can crystallize or give form, structure to the aesthetic,for the ease and comfort or beyond comprehension in the raaga bhaavam in its beauty of abstraction. Raaga bhaavam with its beauty of abstraction can give unrestricted and constrained new meaning, dimensions and effects, beyond the restriction of the word(s). The rasaanubhuti is both in the saahithya and raaga bhaavam- samatvata(equal in measure), vibhinnatvata(differentiated) and svatantratatva (independent). Creative excellence determines its nature and characteristics. To the musicians more aligned to the re creativity, the saahithya bhaavam plays higher role. To the musicians more aligned to the creativity, original, saahithya bhaavam is secondary and raaga bhaavam is primary.
Rasikatva for sense of fulfillment demands sensitivity, observation, concentration, attention, a minimal exposure or knowledge. With higher exposure and knowledge, the rasika also creatively envisions the beauty unraveled either in unity with the artist or even independently.

munirao2001

Venkatakailasam Sir, Please excuse me. This is definitely not part of my dissertation

[munirao2001]

hnbhagvan Sir

Aesthetics is experiential beauty. A beautiful experience is retained in deep memory. Urge is for its recall pleasure, when ever the moment of opportunity occurs. Historically, we have inherited a praacheena cutcheri paddhati (pre-ARI paddhati and post prabhanda gaayana) and naveena cutcheri paddhati (ARI formulated and created paddhati). Musicians with aesthetics experience of praacheena cutcheri paddhati deplored the naveena cutcheri paddhati, which gives only a broad idea or glimpses of the resplendent beauty. When the patronage of art music-Classical Carnatic music shifted from Kings/Dewans/Zamindars-court and temple concerts to the Central and State Governments and elite public, concert duration restricted to 3.5 to 4 hours, exceptionally unrestricted, Sabhas becoming the avenue, ARI with great foresight and exceptional intelligence created the naveena paddhati. Majority of the Great Maestros/Maestros/Vidwans whole heartedly welcomed, trained and equipped to offer manodharma beauty pregnant high quality classical carnatic music, restrictions not limiting their creative forays.
From naveena cutcheri paddhati, we have now adhunika paddhati of cutcheri with time restriction of maximum two hours, a fall out of AIR restricted broadcasting hours for Classical music. In general this development has led to Kalpita aspect to rule over the kalpana aspects in manodharma, leaving the kalpana aspect struggling and kept in control, artificially. Many compositions do not get the reverence and treatment, truly they deserve. Compositions taken with the sole purpose of offering recall pleasure to the undemanding rasika, with ease and comfort to the artists. With the influence of Hindusthani, initially, Western, later and global popular music now, rasikas yearning for instant and spontaneous pleasure, yet another aadhunika cutcheri paddhati has emerged taking the cloak of jugalbandi and fusion concerts.
For the artists and rasikas who yearn for original creativity, who yearn for re creativity of the original creativity moments, present time and development is both challenging and also disturbing. Art music as a Classical form to offer aesthetic experience,in continuum, demands enlightened artists and rasikas with knowledge, expertise and integrity to prosper and serve. With deep realization of the excellence, the form and structure is left to the convenience and comfort. Artists and rasikas, together becoming demanding and supporting only excellence, the quality reigns supreme. Art form secure, reaches out to the new frontiers.

munirao2001

[Ranganayaki]

thayir sAdam before sAmbAr sAdam ...
(--------------)
None will dare criticize...

TMK has not found anything new now..tastes vary...

TMK's point is that that is not what he is concerned about, he is not trying to put Z before A. In fact in all the videos, TMK keeps repeating that it is not anything as silly and pointless as shifting the order. He says that he is tired of the food analogy not only because food and music satisfy human needs at different levels, but also because the order is simply not the point. He does not use the food analogy in his video appearances, he speaks out against it. Once he has made that clear, I thought going back to it was not productive.

KV Chellappa, I think we are talking about artistic license and not about the composers not caring about the meaning of their krities. I think the question is not about the primacy of raga or kriti, but of a balance to achieve the greatest aesthetic effect. Just as krities can be sung or the lyrics spaced or broken for greatest aesthetic effect, the raga, being a mood, can be sung in a different mood in order to achieve the desired aesthetic effect. I came across the example of Mukhari recently and it was opined that the raga could be sung sad - or not, which we all agree on. I mentioned in another other thread how there was a specific approach that made Bhupalam evoke dark cloudy overcast evening with none of the morning-y optimism it generally evokes (notwithstanding the possibility that other ragas are used for sunrise in movies and are thought to be Bhupalam).

Artistic license, correctly, is not taken just for the sake of artistic freedom. Artistic license serves a higher cause. One takes liberties in order to produces greater beauty, possibly at another level. Artistic license implies (or should imply) a sacrifice. Here I believe we are talking about sacrificing lyrics for creating another beauty - musical aesthetics - without which both lyrics and the music will appear bland. It gives the artist the freedom to achieve greater beauty.

I think that somewhere tmk's rather strong views that raga is more important than kriti were rather controversial, and he has put it much more moderately in one of the videos I saw recently by saying that the composers were aware of the "wrong" breaking of words, and were able to "transcend" their own lyrics for the sake of aesthetics in rendering. Yet his point was the relatively lower importance of Sahitya than of Raga. But I haven't come across any statements by him saying that raga bhava can be (and ARE - and possibly should be) adjusted to suit lyrics.

[ramamantra]

I saw recently by saying that the composers were aware of the "wrong" breaking of words, and were able to "transcend" their own lyrics for the sake of aesthetics in rendering. Yet his point was the relatively lower importance of Sahitya than of Raga. But I haven't come across any statements by him saying that raga bhava can be (and ARE - and possibly should be) adjusted to suit lyrics.

To suit Sahitya or lyrics, it is not raga bhava that can be adjusted. It is the rhythm which lends to the sahitya spacing; bhava is emotion. RV described vividly in a programme on Ambujam Krishna's compositions (on DD) how she overcame some sahitya hurdles while tuning her compositions and she gave examples of mel kalam and keezh kalam changes in the sahitya she took liberty to. Discussion on 'aesthetics' can be dissected forever. It is either no talk or :-@ on it.

Btw, keeping posts short helps readers. (this is not a 'snide/ridicule' but suggestion.) Discussions do not happen with some sort of fanaticism. There is a need to distance oneself from the topic and accommodate others' points of view too. It will be nice to discuss this topic with some detachment else I'd rather count myself out.

[Ranganayaki]

About sahitya and raga and bhava, I get the impression that you have misunderstood. Would you care to read again?

I don't understand your use of emoticons. Your sentence that has one seems to make a strong point, but I don't get it. It does not make much sense to me.

If you don't like my posts, please do ignore me.

[sureshvv]

by saying that the composers were aware of the "wrong" breaking of words, and were able to "transcend" their own lyrics for the sake of aesthetics in rendering

This is another whopper which should not go unchallenged. There is no question of "transcending" their own lyrics. This technique was another literary tool that was used to keep the singer and the audience (and all of posterity) on their toes.

[vinsim]

Hearing it straight from the horse's mouth...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYOHZcO ... RH5ecFO0by

"There is something about form, content, construction and intent that makes something a piece of art...all this put together can be termed aesthetics"

To paraphrase, aesthetics is the study of art for what it actually is, keeping aside one's taste. If one understands aesthetics, one's perspective is changed (widened) and one might appreciate art even more.

[balakk]

Either he's profoundly wrong, or my understanding is profoundly wrong. I was(and I still am) under the impressions that aesthetics is about what's provoked in us, when we experience a performance/work of art. The whole point of aesthetics is it goes beyond the objective parameters - form, symmetry and so on If it aesthetics can be reduced to a collection of features, I wonder if it's even worth debating about it. There are standard quality metrics for any art form - they should be good enough.

[Ranganayaki]

I am not sure if we are there yet..
Is vinsim' s understanding directionally correct?

VK, now I think that his understanding is not just directionally correct, but essentially correct. I think that's all it is.

That was lovely, Vinsim. It's so simple. Now, "BINGO!!!" is all there is to say.

[Ranganayaki]

Now my impression of TMK's concert in our SSVT was that he created several pieces which to me seemed short and seemed to only skim surfaces because it was not long, not deep..

At the same time, I enjoyed every moment of the concert, except for the part where he did not choose to sing Purvikalyani and it just came off the top of someone else's head and was unmemorable, compared to the udayravichandrika and the pallavi and the sri subramhanyaaya namaste, and the neelayatakshi.. It is very rare for me to remember such items as I do for this concert and for Pantula Rama.

So if I enjoyed the concert, what is it (other than Purvikalyani) that makes me dissatisfied? I did experience great beauty, yet it is an expectation outside of what I heard that was not fulfilled that made me dissatisfied. I distinctly remember feeling very quiet on my ride home, and just being floored by the fact that each of the three did very little - were very still physically, moving very little, from note to note with hardly any effort in peace and calm, to produce 3.5 hours of excellent music. Economy of effort and volume, economy in passing from note to note, they all barely seemed to do anything, and yet they made great music. I think of all the great artists who make all kinds of efforts, strong gamakas and speed and so much effort, producing great ideas, yet my memory of those do not have the same aesthetic as this concert. So my experience of TMK was wonderful and yet I was unsatisfied. My thoughts in the car were so conflicted with my sincere evalutation when someone asked me what score I would give the concert on a scale of 1-10. I said I would give it 6.5 or 7 because he dealt with many ragas but did not delve deeply into anything. Yet my feeling in my car should have made me say 8.5 or 9.

So does this mean that he exposed a certain beauty and was justified in moving on? When does he know that he has achieved a point where he feels enough is enough? I am going by my enjoyment at that moment even if there were some reasons for it.. When I appreciate the aesthetics, how do I know that it is something about the music itself, and not my response to it? Going over what I read above, the beauty I described in economy of various kinds I know is not my personal opinion but about the music created.. But what is it about the raga itself that I know that he has achieved a certain completion for the day?

[ramamantra]

If it aesthetics can be reduced to a collection of features, I wonder if it's even worth debating about it.

Exactly. That's what is meant when I said earlier, 'Discussion on 'aesthetics' can be dissected forever. It is either no talk or :-@ on it. '

[inconsequential]

Avar kutcheri'ley poi utkaarndhaa - koTTAvi koTTAviyA varudhu;
eppoDA aDutha sangatikku povArunnu irukku;
simply whining - singing through his nose, it looks like his nose has grown bigger.
Aesthetics in performing art is elusive - needs to include the mechanism of the production, quality of sound, diction, modulations and more..
Unfortunately srI TMK's definition of 'objective' aesthetics seems to include only the 'musical ideas' - not any of the others mentioned above.

For success in the search of that space where musician the man vanishes and only music / art lives on - the quality has to be superlative.

It is not about whether the AlApanai is a stand alone or not. Personally - i don't mind. In the worst case - i can think of it as a recording of an old concert where the composition is lost, after the AlApanai. In our own CM, srI GNB has sung AlApanais that last close to an hour and appended them with a pallavi for about 15 - 20 min. I don't necessarily look forward to those 20 mins - because the world he takes me during the earlier hour leaves very little desire or need for anything more. I am not sure i get transported to such a world in srI TMK's AlApanais. And probably there are more among the audience who feel similar. Maybe srI TMK is forgetting that his audience will also stop asking these questions - if only they were truly transported with those AlApanais or whatever that is. Or maybe, the existing "band" of tmk rasikas might slowly fall apart and there might be a new set that relates to his sense of "aesthetics". I am not sure why we / media are also forcing him to explain the thinking / rationale behind his experiments.

At best - his concerts seem to be like a collage.. He attempts an MDR by doing ultraaaa-slow tempo; SSI during those high octane mEl kAla neraval / swaram exercises and so on...

-inconsequential

[vasanthakokilam]

In our own CM, srI GNB has sung AlApanais that last close to an hour and appended them with a pallavi for about 15 - 20 min. I don't necessarily look forward to those 20 mins - because the world he takes me during the earlier hour leaves very little desire or need for anything more

I think you are making a much better case for such things than TMK himself. Not sure that is exactly the reason for TMK's AOO (alapana only offering) but what you say above is a darn good one.

Another hypothesis I am mulling over is that humans by nature appreciate three-act plays and consider that complete and satisfying. Typically Alapana takes the place of the first act. Now, with just the Alapana, some new 'aesthetics' are needed to structure it artfully as a three-act offering. Then the feeling of 'mottai' that Suresh mentions elsewhere here (which I do relate to) may be less of an issue. Here I am using 'Aesthetics' in the sense of TMK's definition ("form, content, construction and intent"). The intention is to make the alapana a three act thing artfully using form, content and construction.

(just as a side comment, what you say about TMK's singing is fine and it can stand by itself and others can agree or disagree. But this thread is not about that, right?)

[arasi]

An 'AAO' (sounding like a yawn) can be an AA!, wonderment sound (all AlApanA) for others.

Second only to our most popular quote (first being endarO mahAnubhAvulu), is
lOkO bhinna ruchi

[sureshvv]

Another hypothesis I am mulling over is that humans by nature appreciate three-act plays and consider that complete and satisfying.

Wow! No wonder. Sambar, Rasam, Thayir!!

[ramamantra]

simply whining - singing through his nose, it looks like his nose has grown bigger.
Aesthetics in performing art is elusive - needs to include the mechanism of the production, quality of sound, diction, modulations and more..
Unfortunately srI TMK's definition of 'objective' aesthetics seems to include only the 'musical ideas' - not any of the others mentioned above.

Spot on. To add, sometimes simple assumptions (which we usually dismiss right away) do seem to be more profound: if you sing well, you don't talk; and if you do, you don't sing well.

[inconsequential]

I think you are making a much better case for such things than TMK himself. Not sure that is exactly the reason for TMK's AOO (alapana only offering) but what you say above is a darn good one.

VK; There has been the english note, the magudi, kuyil pATTu and all sorts of things in the past - the kathri swarams of chembai - aesthetics of which are not beyond question. The RTPs of mAli - did the pallavis even have words in them? I am not sure - they used to just sound like notations, sung in a certain way. The idea is - it is a performing art. Like Nick pointed out earlier, in HM AlAp takes center stage and the composition (kalpitam) is more like a 'deal-closure'. In summary, the question is "Where is the need to make a case one way or another?"

(just as a side comment, what you say about TMK's singing is fine and it can stand by itself and others can agree or disagree. But this thread is not about that, right?)

Finally it boils down to what the audience experiences: If they are all transported - no questions will be asked. The fact that this topic is being discussed for a few seasons now, seems to suggest there is a gap between what audience can appreciate and what they get in his concerts!

Regards
-inconsequential

[sureshvv]

There is an element of suspense and drama in the song selection that will follow the alapana. Hurried text messages, knowing smiles, disappointment etc. in the audience are all evidence of this. This is also part of the wholesome carnatic experience

[rshankar]

There is an element of suspense and drama in the song selection that will follow the alapana. Hurried text messages, knowing smiles, disappointment etc. in the audience are all evidence of this. This is also part of the wholesome carnatic experience

It certainly is for me, without the text messages etc...I like the tension that builds up as I try and map the AlApana to the kRti...something the vidvAns of yesteryear seemed to do (i.e., match the AlApana to the kRti). And when I guess it correctly, it seems to heighten the enjoyment of the kRti by a small (delta x, perhaps) amount.
The same thing occurs in dance performances when the piece is described first, before identifying the composition...at a performance I attended recently, it was gratifying to be able to predict many, if not all the pieces....