Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

Sadbhakthi12 · Post by **Sadbhakthi12** » 29 Mar 2018, 14:10

kvchellappa wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 13:13 Let musicians sing and let us enjoy. That is the way music is alive. Let there be two opposite views. That is the way life itself is alive. It is better to be in tune with times rather than try to pride on having proved a point!

Agree - no need to change anything - Let Gnanamosagarada be sung in PK and Shadvidhamargini
We cannot change something just because one individual suddenly feels that for the past many many years one krithi is being sung wrong manner. Especially when this proposal is also the feel of the artiste and no proof is there

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 29 Mar 2018, 14:28

It cannot be said proof is not there. Musicians, who deviate from the prevalent practise always give evidences. It's up to us to get those. If we are interested, and the divine wish is there, we will be able to see more evidence in favour of the musicians who work with the older versions.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 29 Mar 2018, 16:44

Thank you, Sri Govindan, I saw your post addressed to me just now after finishing this post, continuing from yesterday.. yes, I think this seems to be gearing up to be a dispute and we may not reach an agreement.

I am surprised at the meanings attributed to “saadhinchane.” But your last sentence to me gives the perfect meaning of the word that I feel is suitable throughout the song.

...

I mulled over the meanings of the kriti in a couple of readily available sources all day, I read TMK’s post with the paper he shared.

Among the meanings offered for saadhinchane, i found “achieved.” I feel this is the only meaning that works throughout the song. We are speaking of god here i think achieved here means “triumphs.” I think it means that His will prevailed. In that sense, I feel that wherever the paper TMK shared said that samayaniki alone was valid, saadhinchane was valid too because ultimately the lord prevailed. So sadhinchane works with the meaning of “prevailed.” And “samayaniki” does not seem to be properly interpreted either.

As for the meaning of samayaniki, I think the meaning proposed sounds like “double-speak” and trivializes the relationship. But in fact, We are speaking of a spiritual relationship. When God speaks, he does so to a single Bhakta, Thyagaraja in this song. So what samayaniki means is that god teaches him various things appropriately, according to the need of the moment. In this sense, samayaniki does not work at all with any of the other stanzas.

But it goes very well with only the final stanza. Here as I interpret it, in the first line, samayaniki, Thyagaraja speaks of the grace of god and lovingly says god has given him very apt guidance according to the need of the moment. The next few lines explain how. He has received guidance about the way a good bhakta should conduct himself; he is blessed with lord’s unfailing acceptance of his worship; the lord teaches him not to fear(?); He guides him not to keep the company of those who turn away from god/godly conduct; He tells him to be patient in the face of grief(?); He is the source of the steady peace that he experiences through the practice of Dama and Sama; Thyagaraja marvels at the grace of god, that He achieves all this without even coming near him, showing himself!! Saadhinchane!! It is His will, O manasa, that prevails!

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 29 Mar 2018, 17:11

Thyagaraja’s kritis are mostly about spiritual longing, love for god, good conduct as a method for closeness with god. This song seems to be about the grace of god. I feel interprétations of sadhinchane as irritation with god just does not work with the words of the song, and the interpretation that samayaniki goes with all the stanzas simply puts the thrust of the song in all sorts of directions, diluting it. And you don’t see anything that holds it together. And even though the last stanza follows the last occurrence of samayaniki, it is separated from it because of the number of times it is repeated before, and the lines of the last stanza lose their central connection that holds them together.

But when you take the grace of god as the central theme of the whole song, it all comes together and frankly, I find it breathtaking.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 29 Mar 2018, 17:20

I can’t believe that I’ve had this song for over 35 years without any consideration for its meaning! It feels like my brain is firing up with joy. But then it is god’s Grace that this topic came at a time when I am sensitive to it. My sincere thanks to VK for starting it.

See? Saadhinchane! And samayaniki, He opens the world of this song to me, not years before, when I may not have identified thyagaraja’s longing with any longing of mine.

ratanabhinav · Post by **ratanabhinav** » 29 Mar 2018, 17:24

Going by aesthetic appeal , the line ' samayaniki ' sounds too good to be repeated as the refrain after each charanam .

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 29 Mar 2018, 17:34

kvchellappa wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 13:13 Let musicians sing and let us enjoy. That is the way music is alive. Let there be two opposite views. That is the way life itself is alive. It is better to be in tune with times rather than try to pride on having proved a point!

Yes, but this is how we have enjoyed this song all these years. But there is something in this song that goes beyond the titillation, so to speak, of nice music. This is also what we revere T for, this is the reason for his exalted status. How can we ignore that? Of course, I am not hopeful at all! But this song will never be the same for me again, and I will not participate in singing it in the old manner, as I have done at our Thyagaraja aradhana. But I know that I will be singing it in my car as I did yesterday!

Sadbhakthi12 wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 14:10
Agree - no need to change anything - Let Gnanamosagarada be sung in PK and Shadvidhamargini
We cannot change something just because one individual suddenly feels that for the past many many years one krithi is being sung wrong manner. Especially when this proposal is also the feel of the artiste and no proof is there

I have not even heard the shadvidhamargini version!! Yes that all sounds fine, but in this case, this song is a gem, we all have been saying it is, without even knowing why. The word came naturally to me, and I realized, yes, one of the 5-Ratnas!! How can we throw that away? My heart tells me I can assure you that it is not mainly because of the music..

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Mar 2018, 18:29

Ranganayaki,
I see how you were moved by the revelation (mere nitpicking for some, it seems

).
You are an ardent rasikA who is sensitive to meaning and expression in lyrics, and in poetry too.
Then there is RamagAru--a fine musician, someone who knows her music, the language and T's expression from all his compositions (more than non-telugu speaking musicians, one could safely assume).
Every year, many times over, everywhere on earth, to hear the song being sung the present way, and at times also having to sing ALONG in that format must have bothered her. Had it been some not-so well-known and not so often sung song of T, she would not have expressed her views on it. It would have been just like the times she hears some kritis being improperly pronounced by non-telugu, and at times telugu

singers.
Responsible and learned musicians and musicologists have to express their concerns to musicians and listeners every now and then. Rama-gAru did it in a dignified way (not in the way we joke around about when we perceive something which is out of place). I really felt happy and peaceful when I heard her singing it with sAdhincanE as the refrain. I tried it too, like you, and I was happy.
Let there be other responsible feed backs from musicians and scholars, so that this discussion becomes more meaningful,is how I view it...

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Mar 2018, 18:30

These two greats sing in the 'wrong' format:
Voleti:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWxPq70TNQI
BMK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqopEZLe13A

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 29 Mar 2018, 23:31

vgovindan wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 12:15 Sadbhakti,
What difference does it make to one like TMK who says those who want artha bhAva to visit bhajan mandali - whether it is samayAniki or sAdhincenE when these are only fillers in the rAga metre?

It is a matter of regret that those for whom the purpose of music - communication - has become irrelevant should be in the commanding heights to decide what is right with tyAgarara kRtis. It is not that there is nothing wrong with the kRtis, but then the mutilations were contributions of musicians.

Sri V Govindan: "the purpose of music - communication" - I believe this is the western view of things embedded into their definition of art. But the West itself moved in various directions contrary to that notion itself - like modern art etc. By doing this you are excluding lot of people , like little children who are yet to learn nuances of language - and lot of us who may not know the "Telugu" eco-system and its interactions with the people South - even if we know word by word meaning reference.

You were little dismissive about rAgA / meter etc., but in actuality we have to start from "Sound" as divine, letters , metre, svara, sAmA, sanDhAna etc. Sense or awareness of Sacred starts from there! Metaphysically.

Pardon my philosophical digression: I am reminded of a famous question to a physics professor as to what is the physical meaning of the irrational numbers like the "Golden Mean" - he retorted - it is a number that occurs naturally - and asked back a question as to what is the physical meaning of "pi".

Here is a bare bones ( or physical if you will ) demonstration of "pi". At the end it is as abstract as it gets, all you get is you can never reach the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSuqbqENIek

Lets argue in the domain of the definition of the "art" as abstract itself. If only we regarded from "Sound" upwards as sacred, we would have focused on all other aspects more meticulously. Instead we went to gross layers , emotions which cannot be transmitted verbatim from person to person - and then devotion to godly things, which could be challenged by God deniers.

In spite of having a clear philosophy and meta-physics - actually explicitly enunciated in Sri tyAgarAja svAmi's works themselves, we are not able to argue without being sentimental.

Here now the first line remains mutilated for ages ( merugaka) through pATAntarams , now the second line is also under threat:

https://youtu.be/DHblM5i3Qdc?t=4241

calamu cEyaka ( sEyaka?) nA... talanu cakkani vrAta.

If art by their definition is multi-dimensional then the first dimension of art - that of meter - itself is not carefully addressed. nA is dhIgha , ta in talanu is hrasva. it is made into nAda... and "da" is elongated. nA.. should gover the saSabhda kriya at the arudi.

If only they noticed and studied the first dimension correctly and treat it as art ( and a sacred one too) - lot of problems will not surface. Now we have two camps - one says the "rAgA" is the real art and that communicates, and then we have you, who says sAhitya ( not even that the aRtha of it) communicates and that is bhAva and that is missing.

I say lets go back to basics and observe how a child learns things!

Sadbhakthi12 · Post by **Sadbhakthi12** » 30 Mar 2018, 01:20

kvchellappa wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 18:30 These two greats sing in the 'wrong' format:
Voleti:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWxPq70TNQI
BMK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqopEZLe13A

How do u know it's wrong? You are not Tyagarajar

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 30 Mar 2018, 04:12

Sadbhakthi12 wrote: ↑30 Mar 2018, 01:20
kvchellappa wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 18:30 These two greats sing in the 'wrong' format:
Voleti:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWxPq70TNQI
BMK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqopEZLe13A
How do u know it's wrong? You are not Tyagarajar

Is it right? No one is Tyagarajar.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 30 Mar 2018, 06:04

arasi wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 18:29 Ranganayaki,
I see how you were moved by the revelation (mere nitpicking for some, it seems ).

(...)

Let there be other responsible feed backs from musicians and scholars, so that this discussion becomes more meaningful,is how I view it...

Thank you, Arasi.

I wish too, so be it, but again I’m not hopeful. Do musicians ever share anything with us any more?

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 30 Mar 2018, 06:10

Sadbhakthi12 wrote: ↑30 Mar 2018, 01:20

How do u know it's wrong? You are not Tyagarajar

This is a case of barking up the wrong tree. In fact KVC is expressing his disagreement with me. And I daresay he agrees with you.

Now how do I know that, if I am not KVC? (Or you)

When your baby cries, how do you know whether he needs to be fed or cleaned? You are not the baby!

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 30 Mar 2018, 06:22

kvchellappa wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 18:30 These two greats sing in the 'wrong' format:

So what? It hardly matters who sings wrong or right. What matters is that the imperfection has prevailed for a long time and we owe it to the beauty of the song to correct the situation.

I would not miss hearing Voleti. I enjoyed that rendering of sadhinchane, he has sung it very well. I don’t like the spots he chooses to take breaths and I don’t believe that he has paid any attention to the meaning when he was singing it, great as he is, and much as I love his smooth singing. I think he is in automatic mode wrt the sahityam , and is thinking more about the music he is making, which is superb.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 30 Mar 2018, 06:44

KVC, thank you for responding, but instead of relying on a great musician (who does sing it wrong) to support a view you have, I would appreciate your responding to the points I have raised. My impression is that your view is not really anything you thought about with analysis, but just an idea you have received, that tradition must be right. You seem to think that all these people who sing so well and are great authorities in music cannot be wrong. But I’ve said something about the work. Tell me with coherent reasoning what makes my view wrong in your mind, don’t just say all these greats can’t be wrong.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Mar 2018, 06:49

I think N Ramanathan is a great authority. Many leading musicians think.
I am quite confused. I can enjoy the song either way. It does not affect me. My guess is that many sail in the same boat.
I also have the temerity to say that these discussions do not take the music itself even a step forward. Real 'sangati' is elsewhere.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 30 Mar 2018, 06:55

shankarank wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 23:31

I say lets go back to basics and observe how a child learns things!

To what purpose? Is this connected to this topic? If you say yes, explain yourself.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 30 Mar 2018, 07:19

Sometimes things that you asked elsewhere will be explained elsewhere! You kind of have to take it - just I took your sukkumilaguti. That discussion is a sidebar that I was having with Sri V Govindan. So you can ignore the sidebar!

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 30 Mar 2018, 07:55

kvchellappa wrote: ↑30 Mar 2018, 06:49 I think N Ramanathan is a great authority. Many leading musicians think.
I am quite confused. I can enjoy the song either way. It does not affect me. My guess is that many sail in the same boat.
I also have the temerity to say that these discussions do not take the music itself even a step forward. Real 'sangati' is elsewhere.

Yes, these discussions are not about music at all, if you mean swaras and pleasurable sound. This does nothing for that. But if that’s all you want, then you don’t have anything to say about this topic, and your second para becomes more important than your first in the quote above. You can enjoy the music either way, so there is no need for you to weigh in (don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying you should not weigh in or participate). I’m just saying there is no need as it doesn’t matter to you.

I confess that I don’t know anything about N Ramanathan. But for me your saying he’s great does nothing to convince me I’m wrong, and his greatness doesn’t make you right in your disagreement with me. If you want to disagree with me, you have to give me your own view.

Saying

I think N Ramanathan is a great authority.

is making too much of a blanket statement. What is he a great authority on? If I remember that paper correctly, he is not an authority in my view on the criticism of a work of art. I disagree completely with his concluding views.

He says,

The creations of Thyagaraja should be viewed primarily as musical compositions and not as poetry or discourse set to music. Hence any analysis should try not to lose sight of the musical context and musical form within which the melody, time and verbal elements have been organized.

Really? Who has the right to say how others SHOULD look at a work of art, or any creative outpouring? Who is he to determine the limit of analysis? If instead, he had said that he was, in his paper, viewing the work primarily as a musical composition, and not as poetry, it would have been valid, as delimiting his area of interest and the scope of his analysis.

This discussion has absolutely no bearing on the musical aspect of Saadhinchane, none at all. So I find it absurd that people who have no interest in the poetical elements and who have completely neglected to even mention the spiritual underpinnings should be the ones who’s opinion counts the most on how the song should be sung.

If you SHOULD NOT view the work as poetry, if the substance does not matter, then it is no wonder that the work can be mangled for decades! Who cares about coherence? We just want the music!! Thyagaraja might as well have shut up and hummed or sung in akaaram.

Those words invalidate the opinions/conclusions, because making a determination about the words and their position in the song needs an analysis of the lyrical content and not at all the musical aspect. The poetry goes hand in hand with the music. But the musical aspect is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Mar 2018, 08:06

I esteem your erudition, madam, but you must meet NR all the way, not on the fringe. Mr. Ramanathan is a well respected musicologist and respected not by nonentities like me, but by front ranking musicians. You would have seen this mentioned by TMK.
I readily concede that I am not qualified to enter the arena, but I tried to understand. As I said, I am confused.
I have taken this thread to PR's page and Smt. Radha Bhaskar said she would read it and come back. It would be great if PR also responds.
We are not in a court and I am certainly a poor witness to stand cross-examination. Inconsistency, if any, can be ignored.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Mar 2018, 08:08

I see great merit in NR's conclusion that music was Thyagaraja's focus.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 30 Mar 2018, 08:40

kvchellappa wrote: ↑30 Mar 2018, 08:06 I esteem your erudition, madam, but you must meet NR all the way, not on the fringe. Mr. Ramanathan is a well respected musicologist and respected not by nonentities like me, but by front ranking musicians. You would have seen this mentioned by TMK.
I readily concede that I am not qualified to enter the arena, but I tried to understand. As I said, I am confused.
I have taken this thread to PR's page and Smt. Radha Bhaskar said she would read it and come back. It would be great if PR also responds.
We are not in a court and I am certainly a poor witness to stand cross-examination. Inconsistency, if any, can be ignored.

Dear KVC,

Please understand that I was not shutting you down, I hope you didn’t find me rude, i just would not wish to be. I truly value you as a contributor here.

I liked how you said you were confused, and I understand and respect that.

We are not in a court, no, but I really wanted your own opinion, because my views I expressed from my heart. It is not based on any “erudition” as you say about me.

I am not erudite, KVC. I am no scholar. Till yesterday morning, my understanding of saadhinchane was a complete blur. It did not even occur to me to even wonder what “sodaraja,” for example, could possibly mean. I had no idea that it was not turagaraja and rajanuta, but rajarajanuta. Examples of simple things that I did not even think about. I found the meanings on the internet, along with the same insufficient interpretations of the two crucial words, sadhinchane and samayaniki. I’m not erudite. But I got interested and pored over it and and gave a good thought to saadhinchane and samayaniki in the context of the lines and it dawned on me, and I now have deep conviction. My interpretation brings coherence that “they” do not have. And their god in that story sounds much pettier. That is not trivial.

And it goes without saying after 250 years, that yes, Thyagataja’s focus was music. I completely agree, who can disagree? But would you actually? disagree that his other focus was his devotion to Rama, to god, and to the indwelling divinity? Is there a single musical composition of his that does not involve these?

When I say that this discussion is not about the music, I’m not saying that his work is not focused on music. I’m saying that singing this one way or the other won’t change the musical aspect at all. It will be just as pretty. That’s all.

But that said, one way will bring me layers and layers of enjoyment and the other will take it all away!

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 30 Mar 2018, 08:45

I don't think Thyagarajar has focused only on the musical component.
At present, I don't have adequate knowledge to explain about the meters in Telugu prosody. But, believe me he has literally played with that.
Deekshithar, now is highly celebrated and I hear people celebrating the intellectual component in his krithis. But, this Saint is equally intellectual, but it is not as explicit as that of his contemporary. Even to know, leave alone understanding, we need to equip ourselves.
I will tell an example. As I told, I am not at all proficient to decode the details of chandas seen in this krithi. But, I am opening this purposefully, so that knowledgeable rasikas can enlighten me.

See the krithi 'paritapamu' and Observe the placement of hrsva and deerga syllables.

pari tA pamu kani yA dina palukula marachithi vO
sari lE dani sI tA tO sarayu mudambuna nA

Lot of hrsva syllables. And the pattern is astonishing. It is in a meter, though I am not able to identify.

This is also important practically. This krithi is very difficult to sing if hrsva is allotted 1 matra and deerga 2 or more. But who knows and who cares?

At the end, they even dare to say Deekshithar is the only uttama vaggeyakara of his time. This, I myself have heard from a person who knows nothing about these great composers or their works.

I know, I have touched many topics, worthy to be discussed individually. Never mind, this digression is a must.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 30 Mar 2018, 09:08

Sankarank,
Communication - a Western definition? Vivekananda once said that civilisation was flourishing in India when people in Europe were still nomads - that much for their - Western - contribution towards art of music.

We have discussed in this forum under any number of topics - the purpose of music. Suffice it to remind that in Tamil there are three grades of communication - iyal, isai, nADagam. What iyal (prose and poetry) could not convey, then isai (music) is resorted to - meaning that bhAva is the higher dimension that music enables. What even music could not go into, that dimension of anubhava is conveyed by nADagam (dance and drama). Therefore, personages like tyAgaraja understood the higher dimensions - nAdopAsana.

My simple point was how does it make difference to people like TMK for whom meaning and bhAva have no relevance - whether the word is sAdhincenE or samayAniki was to be sung. For them these words are only fillers.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 30 Mar 2018, 09:15

KVC, I don’t know how far I am going to meet NR on this issue. I am glad that I don’t know anything about him, I don’t want to be swayed by his greatness, and I want to look at his analysis and his words. That would be a more valid reaction. It would be more honest. He speaks his mind without holding back and I read him and I am reacting to the views and opinions expressed, not to him. His greatness doesn’t matter, his words do. If you say that he is a great musicologist and musicians refer to him, I respect that. If I am unsure about something musical and he has weighed in on it, I would learn from him by reading him. But as I keep saying, this problem is not at all about thyagaraja’s musicality. This is about spirituality, and poetry , but he clearly says that those are not important and should not be anyone’s primary focus in analysis. But if this problem is not about musicality, why should i defer to him?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Mar 2018, 09:29

The whole discussion is what is the right order to sing. PR flagged the issue and as it happens, it was done much before her, but obviously, it did not catch on. NR counters the view that Sadhichane is the right refrain to return to after the charanam. He gives the reasons. That is germane to the issue. If you disagree with him on his reasons, you must say why. You may choose not to. No one can force you.
I was forced to refer to NR as a respected authority as you mentioned (I do not know how correctly) that Voleti and BMK are not great authorities on this (the order). I thought a renowned musicologist would be a proper authority. If my comment suggested that what he says should be accepted as gospel, it was wrong.
Spirituality and poetry seem to be anubandham in the discussion! (Pl take it lightly).

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 30 Mar 2018, 10:03

#125 -> SrI V Govindan: To me art communicates something is different from sangIta provides an anubhava. There is lot more metaphysical components in the latter. The former is anthropological - it is deemed valid only with the development of some human intellect - the ability to analyze. The sacred dimension is missing in the former. I suppose you would grant that sacred dimension is something present irrespective of meaning - like in a tillAna jati passages.

Ranganayaki wrote: ↑30 Mar 2018, 07:55 This discussion has absolutely no bearing on the musical aspect of Saadhinchane, none at all. So I find it absurd that people who have no interest in the poetical elements and who have completely neglected to even mention the spiritual underpinnings should be the ones who’s opinion counts the most on how the song should be sung.

There are several issues in this. We are discussing yati maitri along with akshara prAsa. yati is everything about music. yati viSrama sadbhakti goes tyAgarajas kriti - sogasuga mRdanga tALamu - there he is addressing rAmA - but the conversation is about music - and I cannot claim in the Indian tradition that he is not expressing devotion - but in the modern mentally subverted discourse it would be perfectly valid to say this kriti is not about devotion to the lord. If anything he is talking about the devotion to the "sat" that should be expressed in any composition.

Well [:cough:] Mridangam whether it is music is quite long topic started by NR rite?

akshara prAsA is also about music, if you consider the fact that akshara the lowest irreducible sound - has a sound effect and carries no meaning. When the word "poetical" element is used - there we get into anthropological discourse again - and I don't know why it matters to poetry which humors the great intellectual minds , whether things should even rhyme! So when you say poetical element - as though it is separate, it is immensely clear that the you must be talking about the great meaning conveyed to the esteemed intellects!

And by the way "God" as used in intellectual discourse of current times is not same as "ISvara" in the sindhu-kAvEri civilization. Persians removed the "s" and made it Hindu and the Westerners removed the H also and made it Indus. We are subverted right there losing the sacred syllable "s".

At least in the south "ka" remains in kAviri. The meta-physics of tamizh also connotes the 12 eyes of Murugan with 12 vowels in tamizh. And the Ayuda ezhuttu with his vEl.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 30 Mar 2018, 10:47

Ranganayaki wrote: ↑30 Mar 2018, 09:15 I am glad that I don’t know anything about him, I don’t want to be swayed by his greatness, and I want to look at his analysis and his words. That would be a more valid reaction.

You don't have to try to hard. Just listen to this and rewind from here also - he is there.

https://youtu.be/_cmzirvDs2I?t=1590

Why sing a kriti? That is his great solution. Sing a pallavi. Oops Mridangam is required. No it is not. Pallavi is musically complete without Mridangam - said somebody Lecdeming in MA! Why sing even a Pallavi.?

Just sing Alapana. May be tAnam. Just like Bangalore Nagaratnamma. These days there are no connoisseurs for that though. Too bad. I would tell them something. There would be some connoisseurs in remote cities of Europe! In quite a "high" state. A flautist knows their numbers. Ask all musicians to contact him!

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 30 Mar 2018, 11:25

shankarank wrote: ↑30 Mar 2018, 10:47
Ranganayaki wrote: ↑30 Mar 2018, 09:15 I am glad that I don’t know anything about him, I don’t want to be swayed by his greatness, and I want to look at his analysis and his words. That would be a more valid reaction.
You don't have to try to hard. Just listen to this and rewind from here also - he is there.

https://youtu.be/_cmzirvDs2I?t=1590

Why sing a kriti? That is his great solution. Sing a pallavi. Oops Mridangam is required. No it is not. Pallavi is musically complete without Mridangam - said somebody Lecdeming in MA! Why sing even a Pallavi.

shankarank, mridangam (or) layam - which is your focus on? Layam isn't lacking even if one sings without any accompanying tALa vAdyams as my understanding is that layam is inherent in a krithi. What is your opinion in having just a khanjira, morsing, ghatam as tALa vAdyams?

I am not going to get into discussions that mridangam is the best tALa vAdyam and the experiments of CV Raman (believe I got that right) that proved so and all. That is secondary.

Again, lets leave out AlApanai's, viruthams, shlokams, padyams, vacanas etc. Admittedly shlOkams and viruththams (and thiruppugazh with its own chandam) that adhere to the yAppilakkanam also have an inherent layam to them if they aren't sung as free flowing meandering items.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 30 Mar 2018, 14:47

Six pages and counting...It really doesn't matter to the universe whether it's sadhinchene or samayaniki.

सम्प्राप्ते सन्निहिते काले
नहि नहि रक्षति डुकृङ्करणे ॥

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 30 Mar 2018, 16:27

caraNam
samayAniki tagu mATal(A)DenE

svara sAhitya 1
dEvaki vasu dEvulan(E)kincin(a)Tu (sama)
(sAdhincenE is inappropriate here)

svara sAhitya 2
rang(E)SuDu sad-gangA janakuDu
sangIta sAmpradAyakuDu (sama)
(sAdhincenE could be used)

svara sAhitya 3
gOpI jana manOratham(o)sanga
lEkanE gEliyu jEsE vADu (sama)
(sAdhincenE is inappropriate)

svara sAhitya 4
vanitala sadA sokka jEyucunu
mrokka jEsE paramAtmuD(a)diyu gAka
yaSOda tanayuD(a)ncu mudambunanu
muddu peTTa navvuc(u)NDu hari (sama)
(sAdhincenE is inappropriate)

svara sAhitya 4A
sAr(A)sAruDu sanaka sanandana
san-muni sEvyuDu sakal(A)dhAruDu (sama)
(sAdhincenE could be used)

svara sAhitya 5
parama bhakta vatsaluDu suguNa
pArAvAruND(A)janmam(a)naghuD(I)
kali bAdhala tIrcu-vAD(a)nucu nE
hRd-ambujamuna jUcuc(u)NDaga (sama)
(sAdhincenE is inappropriate)

svara sAhitya 6
harE rAma candra raghu kul(E)Sa
mRdu subhAsha SEsha Sayana
para nArI sOdar(A)ja virAja turaga
rAja rAja nuta nirAmay(A)paghana
sarasI-ruha daL(A)ksha(y)anucu
vEDukonna nannu tA brOvakanu (sama)
(sAdhincenE is inappropriate)

svara sAhitya 7
SrI vEnkaTESa svaprakASa
sarv(O)nnata sajjana mAnasa nikEtanal
kanak(A)mbara dhara lasan-makuTa
kuNDala virAjita harE(y)anucu nE
pogaDagA tyAgarAja gEyuDu
mAnav(E)ndruDaina rAma candruDu (sama)
(sAdhincenE is inappropriate)

caraNam
samayAniki tagu mATal(A)DenE
sad-bhaktula naDatal(i)Tl(a)nenE
amarikagA nA pUja konenE
aluka vadd(a)nenE
vimukhulatO cEra pOkum(a)nenE
veta kaligina tALukomm(a)nenE
dama Sam(A)di sukha dAyakuDagu SrI
tyAgarAja nutuDu centa rAkanE (sA)

Two ss which are neutral - containing only epithets - stand out from other ss where the meaning and flow of language do not permit use of sAdhincenE.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 30 Mar 2018, 16:35

Vgovindan,
Can you please explain more about the flow of language?

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 30 Mar 2018, 17:03

I request you to refer to anupallavi where the ending words are 'tA paTTina paTTU' which in Tamil means தான் பிடித்த பிடி - an adamantine attitude (தான் பிடித்த முயலுக்கு மூன்றே கால் என சாதித்தல்). Therefore sAdhincenE fits in here appropriately. Similarly in the (final) caraNa also, the words 'centa rAkanE' ( அருகில் வராமலே - சாதித்தானே).

On the otherhand the wordings of ss it is about talking deviously - samayAniki tagu - uttering words which are evasive. Here sAdhincenE does not fit in. This is what I termed as 'flow of language'.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 30 Mar 2018, 18:53

SrI V Govindan, yours is a convincing one, with the correct meaning. Assuming samayaniki is appropriate most of the time, the sangati elaboration of samayaniki can be expressedly done with the last caraNam , to highlight the association of that line with that caraNam.

In the first instance they could sing it once, or not sing it at all but use it as ending. That seems to remove some confusion.

As regards this debate and the spirit behind the questions raised, it is about the performance of the Aradhana which is considered a solemn occasion - religious one to many.

Individually musicians can stick to their versions I would think. But this change of shifting the sangati elaboration to last caraNam may be considered.

As regards TMK citing NR , who argued based on kriti/vaRNAm format - hey if format is music, then ARI created new music

. We just got done and dusted with formats - yeah?

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 30 Mar 2018, 19:02

sankark wrote: ↑30 Mar 2018, 11:25 shankarank, mridangam (or) layam - which is your focus on? Layam isn't lacking even if one sings without any accompanying tALa vAdyams as my understanding is that layam is inherent in a krithi. What is your opinion in having just a khanjira, morsing, ghatam as tALa vAdyams?

If you talk about musical completeness, even a single svara sounded or an akshara sounded is musically complete. To pick a particular point and say music is complete at that point is the one I disagree with!!! And the that too to make a point about something is not music!

sankark wrote: ↑30 Mar 2018, 11:25 I am not going to get into discussions that mridangam is the best tALa vAdyam and the experiments of CV Raman (believe I got that right) that proved so and all. That is secondary.

Again you have to take Mridangam as a metaphor for some broad concept. So the particular choice of instrument is immaterial. C.V Raman's work is about the physical properties. He is a Physicist - naturally he would reduce it to bare materials. And we the anthropologically trained, will look at it with the same perspective. To understand music, we straight go to see how artisans make musical instruments!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 30 Mar 2018, 19:40

shankarank wrote: ↑30 Mar 2018, 19:02 To understand music, we straight go to see how artisans make musical instruments!

A composition cannot be just looked at as its format. That is like looking at the body of it (it's structure/format). It is a different matter that the body itself is metaphor for a temple. But there is a large consciousness behind it - an Atman behind it. That does not begin or end with its meaning.

Now we are up to a point, we are not even generous enough to consider meaning as relevant to music. That is how much uprooted we have become. This is what anthropology has done to us.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 30 Mar 2018, 22:11

Thank you Sri Vgovindan

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 30 Mar 2018, 23:42

Sri Govindan,

Would you please explain why Sadinchane is not appropriate at the points where you have said it wasn’t? Could you please explain each point?

Would you please explain why you accept the interpretation of samayaniki as “speak deviously?” Does God ever speak deviously?

KVC,

I will respond to you as soon as I can.

Thank you both.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 31 Mar 2018, 00:33

Ranganayaki,
If I may, this is my take:
samyAniki tagu mATalADene = one who spoke in a manner appropriate for the given situation....(samyatirku yETRArpOl pEsinAnE) - which could certainly be interpreted (and in Lord kRshNa's case, it probably is) as "devious" or "bending the truth"... In fact, one of the interpretations for the traditional kRshNa iconography showing one foot flat on the ground, and the other crossed and resting on the balls of the toes (taTTu kAl and meTTu kAl) is that it symbolizes kRshNa's creed: that even if satyam (truth) is sacrificed OR wobbly, dhrama (virtue/morality/justice/right what have you) has to be established very firmly.... (the foot resting flatly/taTTu kAl representing dharma). This is a concept I struggle with, because I think truth should be part of dharma....but hey....

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 31 Mar 2018, 01:39

Because they were bystanders in the court, when dharma was transgressed, he caused the elimination of entire kuru vamSa - including the Pandavas - bodily eliminated when asvattAma directed his astra against all their progeny. He revived one of them to rule. And to honor the pAtivratyam of Gandhari, he took her curse and his entire yadava vamsa was also disintegrated - their eco-system, knowledge base everything wiped out - no match for the service of a Woman who blind folded herself all her life!

That should tell a lot to those who call some prominent people : subjugated house wives!

Of course there are two concrete messages - one taken by sindhu-kAvEri people - that dharma is supreme - the other by others that it is a story of genocide. Do we even need to study the abstractions in the gIta?! Lets ponder over these two concrete messages!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 31 Mar 2018, 06:48

"Would you please explain why Sadinchane is not appropriate at the points where you have said it wasn’t? Could you please explain each point?"
Sri N Ramanathan has explained.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 31 Mar 2018, 07:39

kvchellappa wrote: ↑31 Mar 2018, 06:48 Sri N Ramanathan has explained.

Before he explained - he shot down the proposed meaning of sAdhincene citing some dictionaries by white and brown

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 31 Mar 2018, 07:54

rshankar wrote: ↑31 Mar 2018, 00:33 This is a concept I struggle with, because I think truth should be part of dharma....but hey....

May have some parallels with Godel's incompleteness theorem.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 31 Mar 2018, 08:35

First of all let us get the meaning of word sAdhincenE. This word is equivalent of tamil சாதித்தானே (out to prove one's point of view). This also means 'accomplish'.

Let us look at it from the point of view of Lord. He is called 'satya sankalpa'. - one whose wish is fulfilled. He does not accomplish - by making an effort. Whatever He wills, happens, that's all. Let us not bring it down to the level of humans. Therefore, the meaning 'accomplish' or 'achieve' are totally out. This is not about tyAgarAja's accomplishments or achievements, but about the Lord actions.

In the anupallavi, the ending word is 'tA paTTina paTTu'. I have already explained in my earlier post. I shall repeat it. This means 'தான் பிடித்த பிடி'. This is the clinching part. In Tamil, there is a saying 'தான் பிடித்த முயலுக்கு மூன்றே கால் என்று சாதித்தான்'. Exactly similar meaning here also - tA paTTina paTTu sAdhincenE' - obduracy.

Whether it behoves the Lord to be obdurate is different. In Tamil, there is a word called 'ஊடல்' - kind of fake anger or annoyance which a lover shows towards his or her beloved. The anger or annoyance is understood by either parties only or those who develop that bhAva to see 'through' the words - and not hold to the words themselves. The whole kRti is a nindA stuti.

Ranganayaki and kvc,
I shall post my reasons on ss and 'samayAniki' later.

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 31 Mar 2018, 09:59

sureshvv wrote: ↑31 Mar 2018, 07:54
rshankar wrote: ↑31 Mar 2018, 00:33 This is a concept I struggle with, because I think truth should be part of dharma....but hey....
May have some parallels with Godel's incompleteness theorem.

cue thiruvaLLuvar - poymaiyum vAimaiyidaththu purai thIrndha nanmai* payakkum enin. Untruth is on par with truth if it were to result in unmitigated good.

and

satyam bruyat priyam bruyat na bruyat satyam apriyam
priyam ca nanrutam bruyat esha dharmah sanatanah

* how does one distinguish between three different Na sounds in tamil in Engish script?

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 31 Mar 2018, 15:09

We will omit SS2 and SS4A because these are only epithets and it does not have any bearing on the connecting word 'sAdhincenE' or 'samayAniki'.

SS1 ends with 'EkincinaTu' - aTu means 'as if', 'like', 'in the same way' - in the same way as he defamed (dEvaki and vasudEva) (the conduct of Lord uttering words suited to occasion is compared with that of His parents who were a very truthful couple).

SS3 ends with 'gEliyu jEsEvADu' - this is about kRshNa making fun of gOpis (without fulfilling their desires).

SS4 the first part has 'sokka jEyucunu mrokka jEsE' - this refers to kRshNa behaving as a human (lover) and also as Lord (by exhibiting his lIlA);
the second part ends with 'navvucuNDu hari' - this is about the smirk on the face of kRshNa when His mother yaSOda kissed him - 'Oh, you are my mother!'

SS5 ends with 'hRd-ambujamuna jUcucuNDaga' - this means 'while I (tyAgarAja) am beholding Him in my heart-lotus'.

SS6 ends with 'tA brOvakanu' - means 'instead (without) of protecting me'.

SS7 contains 'nE pogaDagA' - means 'while I am extolling (Him)'.

In none of these above circumstances there is nothing that the Lord did which can be construed as obdurate; - he was 'devious' or 'evasive'.

Yes, in SS5 there is a tinge of obduracy but the meaning seems as if the Lord made out some excuse for not manifesting.

In SS6 and SS7 it could be stated that the Lord did not protect - it is not about the refusal - but the inordinate delay and excuses thereof that is referred here.

In all, if we take SS as a group, then, 'sAdhincenE' does not fit. Even if all the SS are converted into caraNas, some of these will surely not be suitable to end with 'sAdhincenE'.

Therefore, in my opinion, there is no justification for singing 'sAdhincenE' in place of 'samayAniki' (This opinion is based on the version which I have obtained by referring to various sources as given in my blog.)

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 31 Mar 2018, 16:06

Thanks.
Web reference: http://tyagaraja-vaibhavam-tamil.blogsp ... rabhi.html
It is a mind-boggling site. I saw only now. What a wealth of information!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 31 Mar 2018, 17:24

kvchellappa wrote: ↑31 Mar 2018, 16:06 Thanks.
Web reference: http://tyagaraja-vaibhavam-tamil.blogsp ... rabhi.html
It is a mind-boggling site. I saw only now. What a wealth of information!

vgovindan's labor of love!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 31 Mar 2018, 21:17

Another reference from it: http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... ulanu.html

Something I have heard in brahmaSrI bAlakriSHNa Sastrigal tyAgarAja Ramayana discourse as well:

O Lord, You are the Puppeteer (sUtra dhArivai) of the Grand Show (nATaka) of Deceipt (kapaTa)! O

May be he is busy with his nATaka ( that could be his sAdhana) - that he does not have time. That applies to both avatars.