The Opening Number

[sampoorna]

#97
This makes sense. Everything that has an upadhi (manifestation) is subject to the trigunas (sattva, rajas, and, tamas) in varying proportions. Even the avataras who have an upadhi. However, the avataras and maha purushas are primarily sattvic with only a seed of the other two gunas (this can be deduced from stories like gayopakhyana which demonstrate that the Rama namam which is a subtler manifestation is even more powerful than human Lord Rama himself). Under conditions of severe adharma, when all other options are exhausted they come to the aid of dharma but not for any other purpose. This is not a license to act as one pleases.

[kvchellappa]

P0st 98:
Our conclusions will be in alignment with our assumptions. If post 85 is the assumption (why should a two liner be applicable in all situations?), then even actions by the virtuous that violate it will be sinful.
Is Duryodhana's action justified? Did I argue like that anywhere? Still, if there are like-minded people, they may argue in that vein. Will Duryodhanas stop cropping up? No chance. So many avatars would not have been necessary if one avatar had solved the problem for ever. Now, it is for a reader to infer whether evil has a licence or not.
If we assume that Krishna is god and what he does is past mortal discussion, all such discussion will be blasphemous.
If we assume that the virtuous may violate simple dharma to uphold a higher dharma, their actions will be seen as in extenuating circumstances, and will pass muster. I am of this view after reading Arthur Osborne. Not that it is right, but that was the best possible in the circumstance to deny wrong final victory. Even if god is on the scene, such violation is sadly unavoidable. Now, why should anyone agree with me?
My position is simply that there is no universally, or even largely, acceptable answer.

[kvchellappa]

Post 99.
Digression started in post 22.
It was authorised in post 60.

[shankarank]

We are fed on 'Ends do not justify means', 'Two wrongs do not make one right', 'Returning good for evil is virtue', etc.
We are also taught cardinal virtues.

Who fed these virtues? We need to examine the corpus of thinking of that ilk in totality! You cherry pick on one side and then unleash on cherry picked scenarios on the other side.

Anyways here is what I see:

http://factmyth.com/factoids/machiavell ... the-means/

To achieve what "end" he needed Jinnah had to do what he did. To achieve what "end" he needed EVR had to do what he did!

Gandhi is cited as an example of the "means" conscious! But many westerners think Nehru was his PR man, and his image was built to win the consent of the public.

He has his list of controversies:

????? Also, if ever virtuous like bhIshma and drONa side with wickedness or even remain silent spectators, they too become one with wicked. ????

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 977406.ece

Yuktis abound!
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/T ... 024100.ece

[Pratyaksham Bala]

I'll go with the slokam (mantra? Guru mantra) that Smt Vedavalli, Sumithra, and others of her school begin with. I have only to imagine it and I feel peace. That is a very good way to begin a concert.

If anybody wants to use the word divine, I won't argue, nor will I say it has to be that particular piece. A soulful, soul-touching beginning.

Guru Stotram

ajnAna tImIrAndhasya jnAnAnjana shalAkayA ;
cakshur unmilitam yEna tasmai shrI guravE namaH .

अज्ञान तिमिरान्धस्य ज्ञानाञ्जन शलाकया ।
चक्षुरुन्मीलितं येन तस्मै श्रीगुरवे नमः ॥


Sageetha Kalanidhi Dr. R. Vedavalli -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M03WzCHuuhQ

[sureshvv]

PB,
One question I will ask - though it has no direct relevance here.
What if Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose's plan to wage war against British had suceeded, ie, had Axis (Germany and Japan) had won the war, what would have happened to India?

Isn't this like asking, "What if Kauravas had won the Mahabharatha war?

[kvchellappa]

That opening number is proper which makes a good overture. It must set the mood and take the listener to the 'concert' proper.
All singers (except very few who get a sudden revelation and disown faith) make some prayer before commencement. It may not be exhibited.
As a listener, one must attend with a free mind open to good music. The singer must decide and plan his show (often it is more show!).
If he fails to offer good music, it is because he lacked something fundamentally (voice, e.g.), and not because he did not sing an invocation or he did not stick to an order. It is up to the musician to make the listener absorbed in his music.
If a concert can start with deva deva kalayami, or brochevarevaru (no one seems to have found fault there), why not in ma janaki, or rave himagiri or amba kamakshi?

[vgovindan]

Suresh, (#106)
Exactly. Can you answer that - at least hypothetically?

Many people worship Bose as a great freedom fighter - I fully subscribe to it and I salute him for that (I know what it means to be a soldier). But he took a very very risky decision which could have been catastrophic for India. His role in joining forces with Germany and Japan has not been fully investigated - not from culpability point of view - but wisdom of it.

In fact, I still wonder whether and how far my own conclusions (who am I to judge personages like kRshNa and dharma rAja?) would be applicable to modern society. We are a continuum - not an island. Therefore, virtue and wickedness cannot be left undefined - but who will judge whom?

In gItA, arjuna fears 'varNa sangraha' - admixture of professions (I deliberately use 'profession' and not 'caste' because, this word 'varNa' has been totally misinterpreted by vested interests to keep India disunited). We do not know what our duty - dharma - is. Everything is in a state of flux and we want to build a modern - nay super power - India. I don't know as to what kind of pipe-dream is this - at least by those who look upon the promiscuous Western model as something to emulate. On the other hand, people who would like impose their version of 'Indian ethos', as against true 'humanism' (mAnava dharma based on upanishadic wisdom) are gaining political ground.

When time comes to say goodbye - not very far - it is likely to be with a heavy heart of having been 'impotent' to do anything constructive. We are conducting a grand - but meaningless - debate (வாய்ச் சொல்லில் வீரரடி).

[sureshvv]

Suresh, (#106)
Exactly. Can you answer that - at least hypothetically?

Shall start another thread in Member's Lounge.

When time comes to say goodbye - not very far - it is likely to be with a heavy heart of having been 'impotent' to do anything constructive. We are conducting a grand - but meaningless - debate (வாய்ச் சொல்லில் வீரரடி).

Ideas are important. If you are able to influence the mind of even just one person in a positive manner, I think it can be considered a meaningful debate. And lord knows we have many that could use some reflection

So I wouldn't feel so pessimistic.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

.
TO OPEN ANOTHER PANDORA'S BOX !

Winners are always described as ‘good’, and the losers ‘evil’.

Poets / writers (sponsored or rewarded or frightened) shower exaggerated praises on winners, and all their dirty acts are justified and glorified. The losers are vilified and their acts twisted. Subsequent generations who read these books believe them to be true history and start quoting them as authority. In due course, systematic proselytizing efforts add colours through discourses, story-telling, bhajans and music …

The result is : Questioning is blasphemous.

[shankarank]

PB, in India we have lots of winners and losers still intact and the debate continues to this day! There are people who read only uttara khaNDa of SrImad rAmayaNam and talk and critique it. And I am not talking about academics. The fight in MB is sort of a debate between two dharmas , as duryOdhana also had his truth claims!

The debate , we mistake often , is not due to the free speech rights and media ( social and conventional). It is people living their views mainly.
Subsequent generations who "read these books"!!! . The educated "Text" people

So what you say may be true elsewhere , but not actually true 100%. There are yazidis in Iraq as well and paganism is being revisited in Europe! Unaffiliated people - especially those that call themselves spiritual is significant in the U.S

What you said is the usual marxist ( I will not glorify that with a capital M) lie! And you take the word blasphemous to mean something!!

[shankarank]

Also, if ever virtuous like bhIshma and drONa side with wickedness or even remain silent spectators, they too become one with wicked.

Bhishma is a mahAn as per the tradition and that is how all of us have to regard him , quoting Sri kriShNa prEmi - Ayodhya manTapam - 1993. He himself was quoting from the SlOka where vyAsa identifies him as mahAn, before mentioning kRSHNa's dialogue with Arjuna. It is only OK for kRSHNa to critique him as kuru pitAmahA.

The word pitAmahA (Ahem!) has been used in a positive sense ever since!

[vgovindan]

shankarank
Please refer to kuru vaMSa - family tree - http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/familytree.html

bhIshma was grandfather (pitAmaha) of both Kauravas and pANDavas. pitAmaha is not a honorific - though it is used as a honorific in order to highlight his terrible (bhIshma) vow of celibacy undertaken by him in order to protect the throne of kuru vaMsa - and that was his undoing by siding with wrong people - adharma.

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Guru Stotram

ajnAna tImIrAndhasya jnAnAnjana shAlAkayA ;
cakshur unmilitam yEna tasmai shrI guravE namaH .

अज्ञान तिमिरान्धस्य ज्ञानाञ्जन शालाकया ।
चक्षुरुन्मीलितं येन तस्मै श्रीगुरवे नमः ॥

Sageetha Kalanidhi Dr. R. Vedavalli -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M03WzCHuuhQ

It must be shalAkayA ( शलाकया ).
Note Smt. Vedavalli's correct rendition too.

[vgovindan]

pb,
Thank God, there is no 'blasphemy' in India. Questioning in order to seek clarification, is the method of vEdAnta. However, tbe modern form of it - casting doubt and even aspersions - belongs to 'debates'. But the system of debate (like those of Adi Sankara) seems to have ended long back. Even our constituent assembly witnessed only a degenerated form of debate - only a very few of them belonged to enlightened category. That is because, people represented therein belonged to vested interests. Is it so here also?

[shankarank]

and that was his undoing by siding with wrong people - adharma.

You seem to believe that devil can be externalized and then outsourced. The way you use the word "wrong" people!

[vgovindan]

Who or what is this 'devil' you are referring to? - sincerely asking. Please elucidate.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

Guru Stotram

ajnAna tImIrAndhasya jnAnAnjana shAlAkayA ;
cakshur unmilitam yEna tasmai shrI guravE namaH .

अज्ञान तिमिरान्धस्य ज्ञानाञ्जन शालाकया ।
चक्षुरुन्मीलितं येन तस्मै श्रीगुरवे नमः ॥

Sageetha Kalanidhi Dr. R. Vedavalli -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M03WzCHuuhQ

It must be shalAkayA ( शलाकया ).
Note Smt. Vedavalli's correct rendition too.

Thanks ! Corrected.

[shankarank]

Who or what is this 'devil' you are referring to? - sincerely asking. Please elucidate.

The Wiki page gives some clues:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil

Is there an absolute concept of right or wrong?

[vgovindan]

Can you please elaborate as to what you mean by 'right' and 'wrong'. Is it dharma and adharma or satya and asatya?

[shankarank]

I guess best to pick it up in the lounge! Let the opening numbers be discussed here!

[Pratyaksham Bala]

.
Smt. Nithyashree Mahadevan :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=018g53Qf4uc


The Opening Number
Shri Ganesha Stotram

vakratuNDa mahAkAya sUryakOti samaprabha ;
nirvighnam kuru mE dEva sarva kAryESu sarvadA .

वक्रतुण्ड महाकाय सूर्यकोटि समप्रभ ।
निर्विघ्नं कुरु मे देव सर्वकार्येषु सर्वदा ॥

[RSR]

PB,
One question I will ask - though it has no direct relevance here.
What if Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose's plan to wage war against British had suceeded, ie, had Axis (Germany and Japan) had won the war, what would have happened to India?
There are many imponderables in history. For every so called 'underhanded' ways, a suitable answer can be given. Whether one will be convinced or not, is a different matter.
I am stating this with conviction based on my reading of Mahabharata.

===========================================================
https://rsrblogs.wordpress.com/2014/01/09/19/

[RSR]

Bagawath Gita is the greatest guide in life. All the great thinkers and activists of our motherland have begun with it as the basis...Even Sankara, Ramanuja and other teachers and nearer in history, Lokamanya Tilak, Gandhiji and Vinoba have written about it. Nehruji , has written a beautiful chapter on Bagawath Gita in his Discovery of India. Gita stresses Karma Yaga and Bakthi Yoga. for self-realization irrespective of gender and accident of birth. very explicitly. These aspects are stressed by the great lecture on Gita by Vinobaji. For Lokamanya Tilak and Barathy, the message of Gita is the call to perform one's Kshatriya dharmam, .that is upholding dharma as has been defined over many centuries. unmindful of personal success or failure. It is a definite call for action. Lord Krishna, the Jagath Guru, chides Arjuna for his flight away from war. Ends do justify the means.. Karma yoga, Bakthi yoga and can be followed unwaveringly in the fight against Evil. ...We have hundreds of books like KuraL and Naaladiyaar to show us the right path in life. It is the Ends that define which is great . All else is mere obfuscation of plain truth. and is ignoble. ( Excuse me, please! Such plain and simple truth, needs no scholarly theses).

[hnbhagavan]

Lalgudi Jayaraman in 70's used to open with his Neelambari Varnam which used to set the right tempo for concert.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

.
Parallel Discussions in a single thread !
One is relevant to the Topic.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

.
Madurai T.N.S. Krishna –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpSHK77izSM


The Opening Number
Shani Stotram

nIlAnjana samAbhAsam raviputram yamAgrajam ;
chAyAmArtaNDa sambhUtam tam namAmi shanaishcaram .

नीलांजन समाभासं रविपुत्रं यमाग्रजम् ।
छायामार्तण्ड संभूतं तं नमामि शनैश्चरम् ॥