Pushy NRI parents

[Nick H]

Many children, and quite a few of us who are much older, require or benefit from encouragement to do what we have decided we want to do.

It is one thing to want to learn music, it is another to have (among the qualities required) the discipline to do so. Thus teachers and parents can help us, although there are obviously limits by helping us with that discipline.

That is not being pushy. Far from it, if the parent is truly acting in support of the child and in the child's interest, it is yet another job to be added to the hard, hard work or parenting.

We have a whole range of greys, not just the black and the white.

[vasanthakokilam]

We have a whole range of greys, not just the black and the white.

Yes. That was my point as well. This thread took on a supercilious tone in the guise of a bleeding heart liberal wishy-washy bent without acknowledging such a range exists ( caning, beating and emotional blackmail excluded ) and the fact such a range is hard to define clearly. There is really no fine line between "encourage" and "push". Parents do push to some extent until they know any further pushing is not going to work and can only produce diminishing returns and back off. It is a continuous feedback driven process.

[fuddyduddy]

arasi, yes its heart-warming but i think its also a smart way for kids to get away with things i just melt and put off the priority in hand!

[cmlover]

Nick/VK
Interesting that you are making the 'digital' issue into an 'analog'.

In material issues we had some interesting conclusions.
We said a little bit of smoking (one or two a day) is OK.
Studies have objectively concluded 'Smoking is bad' at all levels.
We said a little bit of radiation is OK (perhaps it is good)
Studies have shown All radiation exposure is bad (i.e., no threshold effect)
We said a little bit of alcohol is OK.
Studies have concluded (based on the Greeks experience) that it may be true, but the Jury is not out yet
We said a little bit of coffee is OK
Studies have shown cafein does its damage at all levels..

In the realm of psychology
We say a little bit of lying is OK (We even call them 'white lie'..)
Moralists disagree
What about a little bit of stealing?
The Law is strict (even if you are a kleptomaniac you still go to the correction institute...)
Now what about a little bit of CA

[Nick H]

Maybe we'll have to start quoting the poet Philip Larkin.

You all know the verses I mean, at the very least I'm sure that CMLover does.

[LovingCM]

I came across this lecture and I just can not stop posting it in this thread..., I am sure, some of you would have seen it, but I did not see it in our site. I am a silent reader of this site, and so i thought of posting it here anyways. Every word he says so inspiring..., Please watch The Last Lecture and some more....

http://download.srv.cs.cmu.edu/~pausch/

It is also available on YouTube

[vasanthakokilam]

Now what about a little bit of CA

A little bit of CA is good and so is a lot of CA. Carnatic Alapana is enjoyable in either form

BTW, Let us not cast our fellow rasikas here as defenders of Child Abuse in whatever little or large quantities.

[srikant1987]

I think NRI parents feel the longing to make sure they and their children don't seem any less "Indian" than RI people, but they might go overboard trying to make this sure.

This philosophy / psychology is discussed in The Argumentative Indian by Amartya Sen.

[arasi]

Praise be to children!
kuzhandaiyum daivamum koNDADum iDattil (A child and God flourish where they are celebrated).

[cmlover]

Of course VK:
also RI = Raga Improvisations and
NRI = Neravel and Raga Improvisations
CM folks are the nicest folks on planet earth and if you want to add also those propagating God's messages then for you:
CM = Christian Missionaries

[vasanthakokilam]

ha ha.. Good one CML.

[cmlover]

arasi
valatthil too! (not just left alone

[cmlover]

We may like to check on the musical interests of our prominant Gods.

Krishna as a child was a musical genius as a flautist. He mesmerized even cattle. Somehow as an adult he simply faded and developed other interests such as politics and philosophy

Murugan as a child was fond of Thamizh isai. He even was a good composer using his spear as the quill and the tongue of the devotees as the writing pad

Rama never displayed musical talents. However he was a great Rasika. But was a bigot who attended only those concerts in praise of him and his family

We know nothing about the childhod of Siva; perhaps he had none. He was an exotic instrument player (uDukku) which is touted to be the basis of Sound itself. He was a lover of vedic chants (especially Sama veda) and apparently too kind in gifting to chanters/players irrespective of their deserts He was also crazy about Tamizh PaNNs.

vANI (aka sarasvati) perhaps did not have the voice for singing and hence her husband asked her to train on vINa in which she is an outstanding expert but had a morbid attachment to it since she carries it around all the time She however was the mother of the greatest musician of all times who was also an expert vaiNika.

Lakshmi devi was an unknown musical quantity but ViShnu was quite fascinated by her beauty and never cared whether she could sing or not. Even in her incarnations she carried the day with her looks since the suitors never bothered to ask her to sing

Parvathi also probably did not have any musical talents. However her husband though himself a good Rasika was afraid to ask her since if she were incensed the Universe would be destroyed

Hanuman was a great musician as well as Rasika. He never fails to attend any concert where his boss was addressed In fact he was more interested in bhajans and would melt and lose himself on those occasions.

Lord vinAyaka was a great writer who even broke his tusk to write the compositions. He also was an expert dancer and hence is a connoiseur of fine arts in the complete sense. Since he occupies the front seat in the concerts the performers always cajole him by addressing the first kriti to him

The Old Man Brahma is always too busy with his work and has no time for frivolous past-times like music Nobody including his talented wife or son (or even his creations) bother to address any kritis to him. He simply dosen't care

The ultimate brahman prefers silence since he is always happily asleep. If at all, he cares only for the drone of Omkaara (praNava)

How is this relevent to this thread? Note none of these folks 'pushed' their kids or got 'pushed' as kids They had natural talent and above all enjoyed music as Rasikas like most of us, not being interested in competitions (with rare exceptions

[Nick H]

Lovely post, CML... It is nice, in this thread, to have the smile returned to our faces!

Not only did you omit to mention Ganesha first, you omitted him altogether! Might I suggest that, although he learn mridangam, I think he cannot have been a great success, as he was given an umbrella to hold instead --- and, in the end, sat in front of a television with the remote control.

For some reason, he seems never to complain about the fact that his father cut his head off...

[VK RAMAN]

The ultimate brahman and the Old man brahma in each one of us will help in the cause of "natural talent and above all enjoy music as Rasikas like most of us, not being interested in competitions (with rare exceptions)"

[cmlover]

Nick
I credited vinAyaka( aka gaNEsha) with dancing. He could not play moresing since the tusk is in the way though the trunk is an advantage as a buiilt-in amplifier

[vasanthakokilam]

Good one CML. Enjoyed your take on this. I liked the bit about Rama showing up at the door steps of only those who praise him and his family :LOL:

Rope in Nandi and Narada as well. Narada may not have pushed things but he had his ways which rival 'pushing' to accomplish things If he had done those things with all his good intentions in 2008, he would have been dragged through the mud in this thread

not being interested in competitions (with rare exceptions )

Ah.. what a rare exception it is. Remember, the gods are the first ones to introduce the concept of competition, especially the one between Ganesha and Muruga. So what is good for the gods is good for us as well. Only difference is, we write songs in praise of such competitions and their after effects.

[cmlover]

VK

I did rope in Narada indirectly

vANI (aka sarasvati) perhaps did not have the voice for singing and hence her husband asked her to train on vINa in which she is an outstanding expert but had a morbid attachment to it since she carries it around all the time She however was the mother of the greatest musician of all times who was also an expert vaiNika .

Sarasvati was ony the putative mother of Narada since he was the manasa putra of Brahma (and according to some puraNa a 'dasi putra' which may account for his musical skills

NandikEshvara as the eminent drum player had strong prejudices. He would not play for anybody other than his boss and especially for no women

I was only thinking of musical competitions. The one (which is well-known) is the competition between Hanuman and Narada...

At any rate they would not dare to compete since we have already despatched our finest vaggeyakaras and performers (some even prematurely to their abodes:) For all we know there is a divine harmony of CM in the Heavens!

[cienu]

Lovely CML

[arasi]

super kadai fantastic (sing as Mary Poppins would), numero uno amateur of CM. Friday nights mostly turn out to be fun prasAdam days on the forum, TGIF and all that.
Doctor, if you had irked any of the rasikAs by administering the bitter pill on this thread, your yarn would endear you to them now

[Nick H]

...I credited vinAyaka

Woops, sorry, my bad reading!

I can hardly be unfamiliar with the name, living next door to a Vinayaka temple! <Blush>

[Nick H]

Back to the serious note...

I have been wondering how much the consent of the child is a factor.

I'm still wondering, but today, I formed this question:

Family A cause their child to work many hours a day in pursuit of skill and ability in Carnatic music.

Family B cause their child to work many hours a day in their family weaving business. The child is learning hand-weaving techniques that are traditional, but almost lost.

Neither child objects, or at least they do not voice any objection.

Is there a difference? If so, what?

I'd like to hear your thoughts...

[vasanthakokilam]

Good going Nick. That is what I had in the back of my mind for the past few days as well when people were all getting into the bleeding heart mode of 'any little deviation from what a psychologist may think as the right way will scar the child for life' when reality is quite different at least in the non-arts side of things that Nick talks about.

[arasi]

Arts and crafts--

[cmlover]

Nick

If it is carpet-weaving which is an Art and if the child is employed for long hours, it is considered child -labour/exploitation and is condemned internationally though it still goes on in India and Pakistan.

I guess the same yardstick will be applicable for CM training as well!

By the by how do you get an 'informed consent' from a child.

Is it not easy to brain-wash a child and have him/her 'addicted' to practising CM (even willingly) for an enormous amount of time? CM is addictive and a child is susceptible to subliminal suggestions. Many old-time vidvans have confessed that they used to practise as a child CM for over 14hrs a day. I have seen in my younger days students of Veda being able to recite the vedas, upanishads, Ramayana, mahabharata and ritual mantras from rote with impeccable accent by age ten. The child's brain has an immense potential capable of being 'programmed', As Thomas Alva Edison stated :'Genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration'.

Now is it ethical ?

[vasanthakokilam]

CML, of course. Alavukku minjinAl amrithamum visham. Extremes are easy to define and condemning that is the right thing. At the other side of the spectrum, if a child is not challenged enough in school, it is also equally bad if the parents do not encourage the child in extra curricular activities for a few hours a day.

[Nick H]

By the by how do you get an 'informed consent' from a child.

That question has been in my mind too.

Also, I used the craft analogy (pick your own, weaving was just an example, of course) as it is a situation, possibly similar to some of the children-learning-music situations, where the child may have grown up simply accepting that this is life, and expecting nothing else.

No less an example of illegal child labour than is the youngster cleaning tables in the city restaurant. However, this child may have been consciously unwillingly taken out of school and sent out to do menial labour.

Oh dear... it just occurs to me that today's CM-learning student is expected to produce superb results in school as well!

It is easy for us to see the working children of the world, at looms, kilns, machines or even fields, and say that they have never had the opportunity for a childhood. Some other situations may not be quite so clear to our eyes.

[Nick H]

Another 'by the way'...

I never gave my consent to being sent to school. On the contrary; I hated it!

[blackadder]

nick, you must have read a lot of Twain. As he said, "Don't let schooling interfere with your education".

But to get back to the res, the question that you have posed is a bit of a conundrum: I do not believe there is an easy or a clear cut answer.
Parents, perhaps by virtue of age and experience, believe that they are doing what is best for their children. Of course, there is an implicit assumption that the parents actually believe that. I do not want to dwell on those parents who do to their children what is best for themselves (the parents, I mean). Serendipitously, at times, the two coincide. Probably this is one area where the ends justify the means.

[cmlover]

Nick
Let us go back to our ancestors; the animal kingdom! After parenting and teaching a few survival tricks the young-ones are left to fend for themselves. The parents neither feel any elation or despair at the success or failure of the offsprings. In fact they do not even know them enough even to the extent of mating with them or even have a sense of shame! That is developmental psychology. Humans have spun a complex web of emotions around them which is a safeguard and at the same time a hindrance from the survival perspective. The colour and nature of the web depends on the cultural background, with each claiming that theirs is the 'best' but ruthless nature aims only at 'survival of the fittest'. At present the 'wave' of western culture and values is sweeping the globe due to its successful material gains. All parents are interested in getting their children geared to to withstand in the fight for survival. At present CM is not part of the survival kit. Many are not aware that adding the excess baggage may overload the system. The question is 'Are CM-trained children more 'succcessful' compared to non-CM-trained children ?' I have no objective evidence though I have selected case histories of CM/HM/WM-addicted kids becoming drug-addicts or adopting Bohemian-life-styles (of course in the West). I am also quite aware that none of the successful CM performers of yore encouraged their children to adopt CM as a career. In fact in many cases they discouraged them and have asked them to choose alternate careers. I need not cite case histories in that context. Those are instances of 'anti-push'!In all these cases we should distinguish between 'Love of CM' and the 'CM Skills'. The former develops naturally needing no 'push' but the latter requires concerted effort on the part of the parents/teachers and the kids.

A Rasika is self-made

[vasanthakokilam]

Many are not aware that adding the excess baggage may overload the system.

Says who?

The question is 'Are CM-trained children more 'succcessful' compared to non-CM-trained children ?'

There are a lot of parents who consider leaning the arts as an essential part of their culture/sub-culture/family-path. In such cases, it will be demeaning to set this up as a 'means to an end'.

I have no objective evidence though I have selected case histories of CM/HM/WM-addicted kids becoming drug-addicts or adopting Bohemian-life-styles (of course in the West).

Oh my..CML, this is so skewed. But then it is natural. Only the small fraction of people who have problems go to the doctor and such case histories are created. There are no case histories for all those cases who are not 'cases'. So all we can say is, there are cases of such 'correlated addiction'. We just can not even remotely imply a causation.

[Nick H]

If not selectively reading it, then I think you are selectively understanding CML's post. I'm sure that CML is aware that only people with problems go to the doctor, but you forget that CML is, whatever his profession, also an individual in both the world at large and in the community where the problem that we are discussing exists (or doesn't, according to which point of view one holds).

Parents, perhaps by virtue of age and experience, believe that they are doing what is best for their children. Of course, there is an implicit assumption that the parents actually believe that. I do not want to dwell on those parents who do to their children what is best for themselves

This might be split into a number of groups, among which might be found:

--- those who believe what they are doing is best for their children

--- those who believe what they are doing is best for their children but are wrong

--- those who believe that what they are doing is best for their children, but who are actually doing what is best for themselves, or the family.

--- those who really do not care about their children at all, but are only interested in them as ends to suit their own means.

Those who are truly and selflessly doing what is best for their children are not really the subject of this conversation.

I suggest that, although there may appear to be many people, in many different cultures, who appear to belong to the last category, it is actually only a tiny number of people who are like this. Even those whose treatment of their children is clearly, to others, abusive, surely do not set out to abuse their children.

I'd like to acknowledge, in passing, that no-body ever said that parenting was easy, there is no definitive guide to it, and that it is obvious that every individual and every generation makes mistakes. Without going back to the poem to check, I believe that Mr Philip Larkin's answer to that was not to have any --- but we live in a real world!

[vasanthakokilam]

If not selectively reading it, then I think you are selectively understanding CML's post. I'm sure that CML is aware that only people with problems go to the doctor, but you forget that CML is, whatever his profession, also an individual in both the world at large and in the community where the problem that we are discussing exists (or doesn't, according to which point of view one holds).

No selective reading or selective understanding, just plain misunderstanding possibly.

I grant you your point and I fully acknowledge that. May be it is better not to use the words 'case history' since that has strong medical connotations.

But my point still stands. "correlated addiction" does not mean causation, as we all know.

I am just baffled that we have gotten to this stage in this discussion. We started talking about parents pushing their kids to learn CM and now to the point of CM possibly pushing children to substance addiction...

[cmlover]

VK
Is there a causal association between CM and alcohol addiction?
(need not go into case histories..)
I am definitely aware of the distinction between 'causation' and 'correlation'.
Even Thyagaraja indirectly alludes to it during his time in 'cakkani raja'...

Though a detailed discussion is inappropriate in this thread it can be done elsewhere as long as names are not named....

[vasanthakokilam]

Is there a causal association between CM and alcohol addiction?

From a layman point of view, if I need to venture a guess, it is not a causal association but only a correlative association.

[sramaswamy]

At least one of my friends who forces his kid to learn CM instrumental says he does for this reason. He says if not forced to be in CM, the kid will get into rock music and its known addiction to drugs! Of course when I say "force" we are nowhere near extremes that were alluded in this post. This is like making the kids go and sit in concerts instead of playing Wii or watching football games. The kid on his part says he/she would have been more interested in the CM if it was not forced on him/her. Now, I will take the last statement with a pinch of salt of course!

[cmlover]

VK
correlation is temporal coexistence..
When X precedes Y and then X probably (?) is a cause of Y and not vice versa..
Now how many do you know who are AA to start with and then learned CM?
(or is it possible to 'learn' CM when you are inebriated with no mental control?

In the West an interest in CM can easily transform into a strong interest in other forms of Music including Rock or Blues with consequent associations. In medical parlance we have to distinguish between 'direct cause', 'underlying cause' and 'associated conditions'.

[vasanthakokilam]

CML, "underlying cause" is what I am referring to. That can exhibit itself as 'correlative association' in many fronts. Because of that 'A probably caused B because A happened first' does not hold. I know I am stepping on territories I have no business stepping on, so let me step back.

CML, I don't have to tell you this, but a lot of casual beliefs get enshrined into cultural beliefs over time due to this mass confusion/delusion over 'causation' vs 'correlation' ( or just random coincidences ).
I just want to be careful and extremely conservative in passing judgements when there is enormous doubt about 'causation' vs 'correlation'. Generalizing the heck out of it over the generation population will only scare people unnecessarily.

[cmlover]

VK
here is an interesting article part of which I'm sure is pseudo-science!
http://www.vanillafudge.com/link_backups/music2.htm
I don't think CM caters to the ~5000Hz baroque music unless you start creating a tune hyperventilating with your Flute

[sindhupriya]

"Is there a causal association between CM and alcohol addiction?"

Parents , I hope children are not reading these discussions.....

Just a thought!!

Sindhu

[vasanthakokilam]

part of which I'm sure is pseudo-science!

Yes, definitely. Music having manifest effects on the receiver is quite exciting and interesting. But this kind of articles do not have the required rigor. Anyway, it is a much needed relief detour in this thread.

[ragam-talam]

Is there a causal association between CM and alcohol addiction?

What's your point?
Let's not write nonsensical stuff like the above.

[arasi]

Such addiction can exist in any field of occupation. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not with CM in particular. Drinking is a habit a few folks tend to pick up when they are under pressure, as in any other area of activity--the arts or otherwise...

[cmlover]

When the Cat closes its eyes it thinks the Sun has set

[vasanthakokilam]

Without naming names and also generalizing to Musicians and not just CM

1. There are Alcohol addicted people who have nothing to do with music
2. There are musicians who are not alcohol addicted
3. There are musicians who are alcohol addicted

These are facts. Now, if the third category is statistically significant ( I do not know if there is any data to support it, but let us assume so for this discussion )
that only indicates a correlation.

My contention is, there is absolutely no evidence that music causes the alcohol addiction ( I know many of you are wondering, should that even be stated, isn't that obvious? I agree )

So, even if there is a statistically significant correlation that alcoholism runs higher in musicians than the general population, it may be due to some underlying causes. Like some gene variation that is responsible for musical ability in a subset of people also makes them vulnerable to addiction -- I am just making this up for illustrative purposes. That subset can not include all musicians due to category 2 above.

( to be sure, we are not talking about preposterous scenarios where parents pushing unwilling kids forcefully into music thus causing them great harm which results in depression later on in life which makes them addicted to alcohol. That is a different topic, may be more related to the topic of this thread. It is an extreme case and I do not think there is enough data there to even try to test that contention. )

[VK RAMAN]

How do the Nadaswaram artists fair in our discussion?

[arasi]

Since the topic is about pushy parents, why not stay with the subject and speak our minds about the things they can do in a positive way (and discuss things they can avoid) in nourishing their children? That way, they do not have to worry about their children getting pressured, depressed which may pave the way to their taking to the bottle or drugs if that is what ensues?
I am also thinking of the few very healthy kids on the forum who are positive and are good at sharing their enthusiasm, experiences and their knowledge with us...

[Nick H]

Even music is note really at the centre of this discussion.

We could have called the thread something like Ways for parents to screw up their children with particular reference to the Indian diaspora ---except, of course, that parenting and psychology is not the specific thing we rasikas come together to discuss.

Music here is just a symptom of a kind of dysfunctional parenting (is that the right word, CML? excuse me if it isn't) and it has become inevitable that, in the light of "pushiness" beyond anything I'd imagined, that we've moved into wider issues.

One cannot then take specifics from the narrower issues (music, alcohol) as part of the argument. As a layman, I'd say that it is most likely that children from such a background may suffer problems as they grow up, and that those problems are very likely to include 'substance abuse' of one kind or another. It is not the music that could be said to lead to that, it is the totality of the parental relationship

[cmlover]

As we start expanding our horizon of discussion it is inevitable that we get into topics which may be relevant but far removed from the crux of the issue.
VK is focussing on the logic of 'causation' which is a fascinating topic that I would love to discuss from a professional point of view since I have spent years trying to unravel the psychopathology of Smokers while consulting for the National Defence. I will not stray into those disussions. I am also tempted to discuss the prevalence of alcohol consumption/susbstance abuse among Performers (in general including CM) but will not stray into that area (so as not to provoke a controversy .

Perhaps we should heed the sage warning of arasi and stick to just the 'positive aspects' of this topic (ignoring the NRI/RI dichotomy) and assure folks that 'All is well with th World'. Since I am a skeptic/Rationalist I tend to think on the lines of VaLLuvar's dictum:
kAythal uvatthal akaRRi oru poruTkaN Aythal aRiviDayArkkaNNathE
kAythalinkaN uRRa guNaM thOnRathathAgum uvatthalinkaN kuRRamum thOnRAk keDuM
(We should examine everthing without likes or dislikes, while through disliking we will not know the benefits, by liking we will not be aware of the faults)

I am guilty of focussing on the 'negative' aspects of 'pushing kids in CM' while VK/arasi are pushing us towards looking at the 'positive' aspects. Nick of course understands clearly that I am not trying to put down 'pushing' but am only sounding the alarm when the practice in excess becomes 'unhealthy' and curbs personality development in the individual in a civilized society.

Simply my grouse is in regard to groomimg kids for 'competition'. The spirit of competition is akin to the 'gambling spirit'. Then the child becomes a pawn in the hands of the parents. Win or lose the child's life is destroyed. Let me emphasize that I am stating this in the context of preparing children to be a 'CM Performer'(ready for competitions). Love of CM (as a Rasika) is a desirable quality which makes life enjoyable and helps in stress reduction and also has good side-effects such as weaning away from deleterious (TV/elctronic games etc.,) addictions , memory development and retentive power. I rest my case!

[vasanthakokilam]

Amen!