Vidushi Pantula Rama's open letter to all musicians and music lovers on “Sādhinchenē”

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 31 Mar 2018, 22:03

kvchellappa wrote: ↑31 Mar 2018, 16:06 Thanks.
Web reference: http://tyagaraja-vaibhavam-tamil.blogsp ... rabhi.html
It is a mind-boggling site. I saw only now. What a wealth of information!

Don't forget its companion site, http://guru-guha.blogspot.in/2009/04/di ... html?m=1#P, another labor of love with significant contributions from Rajani. There is also a site for Sri Syama Sastri’s compositions as well.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 31 Mar 2018, 22:40

shankarank wrote: ↑31 Mar 2018, 21:17 Another reference from it: http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... ulanu.html
O Lord, You are the Puppeteer (sUtra dhArivai) of the Grand Show (nATaka) of Deceipt (kapaTa)! O

If samayaniki talks about his deceit and sadhana is taken as his nATaka (enactment and exploits there of), both can be sung, if samayaniki is substituted for uttaranga of sAdhincene, in higher speed for half Avarta starting with 2 akshara (mAtra) offset and the second refrain returning back to sAdhincene - again at 2 akshara(mAtra) offset and stopping at arudi for a pause.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Apr 2018, 07:08

Which will a rasika prefer, a soulful (in the derived sense) rendering of the song with samayaniki or a technically correct rendering with sadhinchane?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Apr 2018, 07:10

Sri rshankar, i saw the whole thing. To go through it, my remaining life is too inadequate.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 01 Apr 2018, 07:17

kvchellappa wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 07:08 Which will a rasika prefer, a soulful (in the derived sense) rendering of the song with samayaniki or a technically correct rendering with sadhinchane?

A soulful (in the spiritual sense), meaningful rendering with saadhinchane, which also happens to be technically correct

. Would that not work? The soulfulness doesn't come from the refrain alone.

The problem is in deciding a priori that saadhinchane is not soulful.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 01 Apr 2018, 07:20

KVC, which argument of mine did you feel was about technique? I'm asking because I'm the only one clamoring here on this side of the question.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Apr 2018, 07:27

No. I did not mean spirituality at all here. Also, spirituality to me is unemotional, but that would be another topic. I meant singing with raga bhava intact, another one is unimaginative. If my thought is still messy, we will leave it.
Also, the discussion is what is appropriate in the context of the song, and what Sri Thyagaraja's intention was. On the latter, we have to dash our heads against the wall. On the former, logical construction is possible and that has been the topic of this thread. Those who find samayaniki relevant have not argued or decided that sadhinchane is not soulful. They have not argued that one should not sing like that.
As I see, the two schools of opinion will prevail. A uniform view and getting everyone to sing the way PR exhorts in her open letter may not come about. I do not think that it is any loss to music or enjoyment. Each can follow what his patantaram is and rasikas can enjoy according to their manodharma.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Apr 2018, 07:30

Ranganayaki wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 07:20 KVC, which argument of mine did you feel was about technique? I'm asking because I'm the only one clamoring here on this side of the question.

My question is in the general context, not in reference to any view expressed. Let me add at the expense of sounding too humble, I will not be able to understand technique, much less to question.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 01 Apr 2018, 08:03

kvchellappa wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 07:30
Ranganayaki wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 07:20 KVC, which argument of mine did you feel was about technique? I'm asking because I'm the only one clamoring here on this side of the question.
My question is in the general context, not in reference to any view expressed. Let me add at the expense of sounding too humble, I will not be able to understand technique, much less to question.

Ok, because I didn't say a single thing about technique. In fact, you've asked me about that (wrt the paper) and I haven't answered you yet.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Apr 2018, 08:08

That was about meaning. I thought you referred to technique of music. As far as I am concerned, I look forward to nothing more in this discussion. The lines are divided. Music is intact and I am just interested in it.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Apr 2018, 09:07

And I wish I could say, all's well with the rest of the rasikAs

You may throw in the gauntlet, but see how restless folks are, in some threads

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 01 Apr 2018, 09:15

'There was an accident - involving two cars. The driver of the other car was killed instantaneously; there was a 12 year old kid beside the driver - his child; the child wanted to become a dentist - I learnt it later.

A huge truck dashed against both the cars and pushed us into lake. The traffic cop - a robot - came in and tried to rescue. I shouted to the robot to save the child; but it saved me - because I had 45 % survival chance and the child had only 12%. Any human in the place of a robot would have saved the child. But I survived.'

I Robot - a dialogue.

Is music also robotic?

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 01 Apr 2018, 10:10

Music is indeed soulful. But you have to protect the metaphysics ( not just grammar ) - which is the body. We see the stapatis sculpt various patterns in the temple as we perambulate. You have to protect all of that for your soulfulness to remain intact!

That stapati opens the eyes of the Lord ( especially true for vaishnavites!)

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 01 Apr 2018, 10:31

https://youtu.be/El7jX4Uuwhg

The kRti rendered by MS in tyAgarAja Aradhana - rAma nannu brOvarAvEmakO - harikAmbhoji

The pallavi line is 'rAma, why don't you come to protect me?' (rAma nannu brOvarAvu-EmakO?)

The rendition is rAma, protect me - why? - (why should you protect me?)

musical robotism on display by none other than the icon of CM - that too in tyAgarAja ArAdhana.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 01 Apr 2018, 10:38

And that was called mridangam centric word splitting by Dr Lokanatha Sarma. I differ with him. That is tALam based pedagogical word splitting - pATa - andaram ( tamizh andaram - hanging mid air). Most well sAdhakamed mridangists are waiting for you to land a wee bit before samam with brOvarAvu, and take EmakO with an offset and create some tension! That is one characteristic of the metaphysics that exists!

You can't blame her. People like SSI who taught her - simply asked "sAhityattulE enna irruku - svaram pODaNUM!"

Do robots get tense yet and can they handle that?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 01 Apr 2018, 11:20

vgovindan wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 10:31 https://youtu.be/El7jX4Uuwhg

The kRti rendered by MS in tyAgarAja Aradhana - rAma nannu brOvarAvEmakO - harikAmbhoji

The pallavi line is 'rAma, why don't you come to protect me?' (rAma nannu brOvarAvu-EmakO?)

The rendition is rAma, protect me - why? - (why should you protect me?)

musical robotism on display by none other than the icon of CM - that too in tyAgarAja ArAdhana.

This is pretty much how I have heard everyone sing this kriti. Is there a recording of the "correct" way?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Apr 2018, 11:46

This is a comment there: "tyagayya also would have enjoyed. and said sabhas, subbulakshamma."
Sri T S Parthasarathi gives it as
ராம நந்நு ப்ரோவரா- வேமகோ
he gives the translation as "நீ உலகத்தோரின் மனங்கவர்வோனாக இருந்தும் என்னைக் காக்க வரமாட்டாயோ?'

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 01 Apr 2018, 17:28

vgovindan wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 10:31
musical robotism on display by none other than the icon of CM - that too in tyAgarAja ArAdhana.

Actually from the story you narrated in your prior post, the robot made a decision smarter than what a typical individual would make. So in that sense, robotism was superior to humanism.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 01 Apr 2018, 18:42

Suresh,
Are you serious? Or is it a rhetoric?
I thought there is a higher dimension called 'emotion' which is beyond the realm of intellect and which makes life what it is. That's why I prefixed the story.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Apr 2018, 19:00

Yes, Govindan, bhAvamu lEka sangItamu lEdu.
As for the icon, she had an endless supply of it. With learning, she did that humbly, from every source which she was told was worthy. She strove always to make her music even better...

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 01 Apr 2018, 21:07

vgovindan wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 18:42 Suresh,
Are you serious? Or is it a rhetoric?
I thought there is a higher dimension called 'emotion' which is beyond the realm of intellect and which makes life what it is. That's why I prefixed the story.

Why build a robot only to have it mimic human "emotions"?

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 01 Apr 2018, 21:33

I am a theist and a vaishnavaite at that. . Still, if we are given the more than 500 lyrics of Thyagaraja, without the music, I dont think, it will rank as literature. Just some lament, all the time. It was the music that gave life to these songs. and if grammar is understood and followed correctly, well and good. Even if not, it does not matter. Just imagine that you are listening to instrumental music. What is so nice about the lyrics of 'rama nanu brovara'? I have used Sri.V.Govindan's translation in the DKP page.
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... nu-brovara
( i think , there is grammar error in tamizh translation) ,but it conveys the meaning.
Most listeners do not know either Telugu or Kannada or Sanskrit and even chaste Thamizh? Does it take away the merit of music? What is the use of grammatical singing, without music? Ofcourse, pronunciation is important but bhaavam is more important and Smt.MS transmitted that to the listeners effortlessly. It may be better to do away with lyrics altogether. The debate is straying too much away from the original post.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 01 Apr 2018, 21:37

Sankark,
That was only an allegory.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 01 Apr 2018, 22:25

vgovindan wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 18:42 Suresh,
Are you serious? Or is it a rhetoric?
I thought there is a higher dimension called 'emotion' which is beyond the realm of intellect and which makes life what it is. That's why I prefixed the story.

Serious. Emotion is great and gives life meaning, no doubt. But sometimes it can also get in the way of making correct decisions. As the robot story illustrates.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 01 Apr 2018, 22:27

RSR wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 21:33 I am a theist and a vaishnavaite at that. . Still, if we are given the more than 500 lyrics of Thyagaraja, without the music, I dont think, it will rank as literature. Just some lament, all the time.

Think you are ready to move on to Syama Sastry kritis.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 01 Apr 2018, 22:35

http://tamil.thehindu.com/general/liter ... epage=true
This is in thamizh. An interview of Sitar player who participated in Thiruvaiyaru urchavam. ( most participants in this thread know Tamizh , and can understand the relevance.
பண்டிட் ஜனார்த்தன் மிட்டா பேட்டி
"ஒருமுறை மியூசிக் அகாடமியில் என்னுடைய கச்சேரிக்கு வந்த பாலமுரளி கிருஷ்ணா, “கமகங்கள் எல்லாம் நன்றாக வருகிறதே… ஏன் நீங்கள் கர்னாடக இசை வாசிக்கக் கூடாது” என்று கேட்டார். அவ்வளவு பரிச்சயம் இல்லை என்று சொன்னேன். நான் சொல்லித் தருகிறேன் என்று சாருகேசி ராகத்தில் ஒரு கீர்த்தனை, இன்னும் இரண்டு தியாகராஜர் கீர்த்தனைகளை சொல்லிக் கொடுத்து, 1976-ல் நடந்த திருவையாறு தியாகராஜர் ஆராதனையில் வாசிக்கவைத்தார். முதன்முதலாக திருவையாறு ஆராதனையில் வாசித்த இந்துஸ்தானி இசைக் கலைஞர் நான்தான். "

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 01 Apr 2018, 23:05

RSR,
I know I have offended many by citing MS. I have no less regard for her. I just wanted to highlight how deep-rooted the malice of disregard to sahitya is. It is not MS, but her mentoring - as has been brought out here by one member - the weight of paddhati and sampradaya whose product is TMK and who displays utter contempt for sAhitya.

The relevance of sAhitya is the main theme of this thread. sAdhincenE and samayAniki debate happened not because of dispute of meaning, but more about elegant rendering - the bard can take a backseat.

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 01 Apr 2018, 23:17

vgovindan wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 23:05 RSR,
I know I have offended many by citing MS.

The only sacred cow is that there are no other sacred cows.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 02 Apr 2018, 03:39

Is not the issue still unsettled? Which is correct - brovuru or brovaraa?
MS could be wrong in words as many Telugu people have pointed out and even her Hindi is not considered correct by many. That is not the issue here.
DKP who also paid attention to sahitya sings as brovaraa. Nedunuri, who must have certainly applied his mind, sings as brovaraa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qntGkOkmYs

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 02 Apr 2018, 04:13

sureshvv wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 11:20 This is pretty much how I have heard everyone sing this kriti. Is there a recording of the "correct" way?

Of course there is: https://youtu.be/Nxi2AABqU_I?t=1484 . he splits @ rAma nannubrOva rAvEmako keeping the sandhi intact and sAhitya intact.

RSR wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 21:33 What is the use of grammatical singing, without music? Ofcourse, pronunciation is important but bhaavam is more important and Smt.MS transmitted that to the listeners effortlessly. It may be better to do away with lyrics altogether.

If you have enough intellect to classify something as non literature , then by gully lyrics should be considered important for you. Otherwise you are not having a honest discussion. By saying that they are lyrics, you have undermined the sindhu-kAvEri civilization and you have sold your soul ( yes they harvest it - even the enlightened seculars) to somebody.

And you don't have to get defensive about something critical about great musicians that you have cherished. Smt. MSS sought the help of many pundits in Sanskrit and telugu as well. That is regarding correct pronunciation. This pada-ccetam is a problem of that entire era of music. There is also musical justification for it.

But there is also musical method to fix it. And with enhanced music as well.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 02 Apr 2018, 04:29

I want to re-quote this from another thread/post:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30744&start=25#p330473

the grammatical aspect of the language comes to the fore here the GUNA SANDHI connects the two words into one TENELU OLUKU as TENELOLUKU but the great musicologist maestro PROF SRIPADA PINAKAPANI GARU also held the same view that sahitya should be split as 'paluku palukulaku tene loluku for the roopakam to set in .he used to hold a view that if one wants to savour the sahitya why don't they sit at home and read a commentary on tyagarajaswamy's sahitya acumen why do they come to listen to a sangeeta kutcheri where they find faults with the splitting of the syllables AS A TORCH BEARER OF THE TANJAVUR BANI WHICH WAS TAUGHT TO HIM BY THE LATE RANGARAMANUJA IYENGARVAL,he had clear view about things related to kriti singing,though I beg to differ from the GURU of legends like VOLETI,NEDUNURI,MALLADI BROTHERS that sahitya is secondary in a katcheri I respect your deep interest in the clear enunciation of lyrics my salutations to you as an esteemed, fortunate disciple of the GREAT TKG SIR

Sri pANi Garu's grand disciples are rendering here:

https://youtu.be/HNVMdnWD3Rs?t=370

They begin cinna nADe @ 2 full beat offset - as opposed to 1-1/2 where usually it is. What control! And same repeats for some lines further into the kriti. One of them is a graded Mridangist. And that tells!

Again @ https://youtu.be/HNVMdnWD3Rs?t=1808 - mIna @ offset from where it is usually. If they can do all that - I suppose they can fix others in so many ways!

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 02 Apr 2018, 07:10

"...... if we are given the more than 500 lyrics of Thyagaraja, without the music, I dont think, it will rank as literature. Just some lament, all the time. It was the music that gave life to these songs. and if grammar is understood and followed correctly, well and good. Even if not, it does not matter. Just imagine that you are listening to instrumental music. What is so nice about the lyrics of 'rama nanu brovara'?"

"Krishna" lamented draupadi when she was stripped of her robe in the assembly in front of her husbands;
dhruva lamented;
prahlAda lamented;
gajendra lamented;
"giridhara gOpAlA" lamented mIrA when she was given poison by her husband;
purandara dAsa lamented;
rAma dAsu lamented;
annamayya lamented:
vaLLalAr lamented;
sambandar lamented;
aruNagiri nAdar lamented;
rAmakrishna paramahamsa lamented;
muttusvAmi dIkshita lamented 'mInAkshi mE mudam dEhi';
and so did lament SyAmA SAsti.
May all the vaishNava saints who lamented - including ANDAL - may forgive me for not mentioning them individually - endarO mahAnubhAvulu andariki vandanamulu.

But the Lord heard not the music nor understood the language; He responded to the heart that lamented. And, that's enough - who cares whether fellow humans understand or not?

Alas! These laments are just some laments and they carry little or no value for this generation except for the musical component.

I do also lament silently.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 02 Apr 2018, 07:22

tEneloluku - tEnelu- oluku.
tEne - singular; tEnelu - plural; it does not make any difference.

brOva rAvu - brOvarA - these are different and do not stand on the same footing as 'tEnelu'.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 02 Apr 2018, 07:25

The objection I thought was to the piece "loluku" that fell out as a result of pada-chedam.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 02 Apr 2018, 09:12

Smt PR gives detailed explanation of how Sadhinchane is appropriate:
https://www.facebook.com/pantula.rama?h ... xM&fref=nf

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 02 Apr 2018, 09:40

My response to PR on Facebook -
As indicated therein, I shall elaborate ss meanings later.

Madam,
Fisrt let us understand that this kRti is nindA stuti.
The real meaning of 'sAdhincenE' is clear from anupallavi ending words - tA paTTina paTTu'. This is a normal usage in tamil 'தான் பிடித்த பிடி' - தான் பிடித்த முயலுக்கு மூன்றே கால் என்று சாதித்தான்' a very famous usage which indicates obduracy - out to prove or maintain one's point of view. Therefore, will have that meaning. There is nothing for Lord to achieve or accomplish. He is satya sankalpa - His will is the accomplishment.

'samayAniki tagu mATalu' refers to evasive and bypassing nature of talk. This is what Lord did in His avatAra ecxepting when He propounded gItA.

I shall give exhaustive explanation later. Suffice it to say that, sadly, you are either compelled by scholarship of someone whom you may revere or you are very misguided.

In order to understand tyAgarAja, one needs heart not head.

Best wishes and pranams to your vidvat - sincerely.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 02 Apr 2018, 09:55

She will not look here. May I copy-paste in FB?

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 02 Apr 2018, 10:03

vgovindan wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 09:40
'samayAniki tagu mATalu' refers to evasive and bypassing nature of talk. This is what Lord did in His avatAra ecxepting when He propounded gItA.

One way to interpret this is "He spoke as *necessitated/dictated*^ by circumstances" or "He spoke as appropriate for the circumstances". evasive/bypassing is one way, that evokes a negative connotation

^ Let's not get into he could have molded/created/shaped fine circumstances or never ended up in such circumstances. Lets just accept as article of faith that a grand unfathomable-to-human-intellect scheme of Hir culminated in circumstances being so and so.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 02 Apr 2018, 10:04

kvc,
I have posted in FB itself. I hope she is able to notice my post.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 02 Apr 2018, 10:36

I agree with PR’s explanation completely. In fact I came back online yesterday after discussing this with a Telugu friend and coming to exactly the same conclusion about the words: Sadhinchane being a lament (with the meaning of torment completing the meaning of the sa), and samayaniki being completely positive. I wanted to write all this yesterday, but was exhausted and this was too big in my head for me to begin to write here tapping out with one finger on my phone as my computer isn’t working.

It is an adoring lament of impatience and frustration and it is completely coherent only when understood correctly. The explanations given by NR are incoherent and take several things for granted in support of a foregobe conclusion. He decides that samayaniki is the correct refrain and then to support this, gratuitously surmises without evidence that T seems to have intended to use the structure of a particular varnam .

And the fact that all the other ratnas return to the pallavi and have a structure more or less similar to saadhinchane is negated, if I understand correctly.

Thyagaraja’s spiritual lament is completely ignored, and only the musicality is of concern. I wonder why that argument should be even taken into consideration. Looking at prasa while ignoring the substance (not meaning) - is like preciously guarding the box and throwing away the jewellery.

I am amazed at the fact that with the help of my Telugu friend, we reached all the same conclusions.

One thing that has not been mentioned: while they speak of (far-fetched) precedence for the ettugada line, they don’t take into consideration that in not a single kriti anywhere ( and certainly not in a single other T kriti) has the charanam ever been split and brought back together as in this one.

The meaning of the charanam line and the integrity of the whole charanam are destroyed when it is split and brought back together.

Also, NR offers mere conjecture and guesses with regard to the meanings of the two lines in connection with the charanam. It is inelegant and clumsy and gets us all tied up in knots while struggling to figure out a meaning that fits their theory. This interpretation is elegant, coherent and extremely simple.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 02 Apr 2018, 10:51

shankarank wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 04:13
sureshvv wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 11:20 Is there a recording of the "correct" way?
Of course there is: https://youtu.be/Nxi2AABqU_I?t=1484 . he splits @ rAma nannubrOva rAvEmako keeping the sandhi intact and sAhitya intact.

Great! Thank you. You have just earned your rasikas karma for the month of April.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 02 Apr 2018, 11:04

vgovindan wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 09:40 My response to PR on Facebook -
As indicated therein, I shall elaborate ss meanings later.

Madam,
Fisrt let us understand that this kRti is nindA stuti.
The real meaning of 'sAdhincenE' is clear from anupallavi ending words - tA paTTina paTTu'. This is a normal usage in tamil 'தான் பிடித்த பிடி' - தான் பிடித்த முயலுக்கு மூன்றே கால் என்று சாதித்தான்' a very famous usage which indicates obduracy - out to prove or maintain one's point of view. Therefore, will have that meaning. There is nothing for Lord to achieve or accomplish. He is satya sankalpa - His will is the accomplishment.

'

If you take that stance, ta pattina pattu makes no Sense either. God does not need to be obstinate. His will just IS.

Each of the ss has its meaning completed by “he torments me.” Or “yet he torments me”.

samayAniki tagu mATalu' refers to evasive and bypassing nature of talk. This is what Lord did in His avatAra ecxepting when He propounded gItA.

That’s all fine, but how does it connect to the sahityam? How does the extraction of one line affect the integrity of the charanam? (I am not talking about the prasa)

What about T’s brand of Bhakti? What about coherence? And the simplicity of her explanation vs the tizzy they get into and the total lack of clarity? “This one could be used, the other one could also, this one works here but not there..”

I shall give exhaustive explanation later. Suffice it to say that, sadly, you are either compelled by scholarship of someone whom you may revere or you are very misguided.

You forget that she is a scholar, and this is her profession. She is not a baby. You are talking down to her. You are disrespectful. How come? You surprise me. She has given serious explanations that come clearly from her own mind. My impression is that you have never given this proper thought with an open mind. All of you who want to uphold this current way of singing somehow associate it with established tradition and refuse to even consider that it could be wrong.

I can’t imagine that if NSG had come here and said exactly what she said, you would tell him that he is misguided. This does not even require much experience. If you know how to study poetry correctly, this becomes obvious. In any other world, that paper would be criticized to shreds for its slipshod approach.

To all who say NS is a scholar who cannot be disagreed with, what about the those who support her point of view? The guru she quotes and sri lalgudi among others. Lalgudi misguided too? So you can cherrypick your authorities?

In order to understand tyAgarAja, one needs heart not head.

Best wishes and pranams to your vidvat - sincerely.

There is no evidence that she didn’t use her heart. Anyway, heart and head are all the same. It is the manas. You say Pranam to her vidwat after calling her misguided!

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 02 Apr 2018, 11:49

https://youtu.be/W7lqqH8VZw0

"500 kRtis of tyAgarAja are nothing but lament without music"

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 02 Apr 2018, 11:57

Ranganayaki,
I started with preface that sAdhincenE is a nindA stuti. Let us be clear about that first.
Example of nindA stuti rAmadAsu -

https://youtu.be/Ku0x2ANTNKc

Her being misguided about this T kRti does not belittle her vidvat. Casting doubt or aspersion on a particular matter, should not be construed to be casting aspersion on the person.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 02 Apr 2018, 12:48

Is it true that colloquial meanings will not find their way into dictionary?
From when did that colloquial meaning become prevalent? Was it prevalent among TN settled Telugu people also at that time? Is it documented and where? Is there any evidence from any of the sishya paramparas that it was sung the way PR says? Was anyone singing it that way before it was sought to be corrected in the fifties?
I looked for Nedunuri's rendering of the kriti, but could not get it in youtube. His disciples, Malladi Brothers (Telugu singers), sing it emphatically returning to samayaniki. I could not get Lalgudi's also in youtube.
From my cursory understanding of the kriti, the variety of incidents quoted seem to gel with god taking different stances at different times, rather than tormenting the singer. Why would god doing those things torment him?
Ninda stuti is replete in bhakti literature and Sri Thyagaraja has himself adopted it liberally.
I feel there is no need to feel 'sadhichane' in this. Each can follow what his head or heart commends.

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 02 Apr 2018, 14:34

vgovindan wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 11:57 Casting doubt or aspersion on a particular matter, should not be construed to be casting aspersion on the person.

+1. May your tribe flourish.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 02 Apr 2018, 15:00

Ranganayaki,
I don't understand as to why you take the name any other artist (NSG). If any such artist says something absurd, the remark would continue to be same. Haven't you seen my post about robotic music citing MS? Let us not get into personlity or reputation of persons. Let us deal with events and situations only.
நெற்றிக்கண்ணைத் திறந்தாலும் குற்றம் குற்றமே.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 02 Apr 2018, 15:01

'rama nanu brova' is a very popular song, ( may not be due to the lyrics but due to the ragam and tune).
Here is an upload by Sankar Rajasekaran. https://youtu.be/Y7F4_QifpuQ
The same song has been rendered by all the great vidvans. and lady singers and many are available in tube.
Smt.MS tried her best to pronounce the words correctly but nevertheless, she could not , except perhaps in Sanskrit and Thmaizh. ( Was her mother-tongue kannada?..I read somewhere that it was). Many friends used to say that her hindi and Bengali pronunciation left much to be desired. Except for the respective native speakers, it hardly mattered. Devotees of Smt.MS from Andhra and Karnataka are legion. because they are lovers of her music primarily and easily overlook any problem in pronunciation, if any.
This thread is about one of the famous panccha rathan kruthis. I reiterate that many if not most carnatic musicians of eminence in the last century from tamilnad did not know much of telugu or kannada or sanskrit. They sang according to their 'school'. The emphasis was not so much on word-by-word meaning but on utilising the lyrics for expounding the music. ... One among the greatest of vidvans Sri.Mani Iyer, whose life was music itself according to Kanchi Paramacharya , often did not pronounce the words at all. It mattered very little. We will fill it up if needed.
Pardon me for diverting the topic to ramanannu brova. Let us consider DKP rendering, a classic . Consider the niraval (is it the word?), of the second stanza. Some one try to translate those lines into tamil and substitute there. We can easily see how absurd it would sound! What is all this ant stuff? in first para?
Now let me take equally famous song by Smt MSSubbulakshmi. 'vandAaum solai thanile. That is literature.This also in the same ragam..Harikambodhi . Do you want the full lyrics as penned by Kalki?
Here it is.
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... i-thanilae
We do not know who set the piece to music. And has anyone sung that song like Smt.MS? Can they, even if they tried? Listen to 'pAdatthAmaarikal nondida', niraval, Unlike the ramanannu song, this is quite apt and sweet . Smt MS has rendered ALL tamil songs beautifully because it is her mother tongue and she understands the lyrics perfectly. That is a bonus.
Smt.MS is musician par-excellence . Never will be another like her ever.
When Ramanannu song has been sung by a dozen stalwarts of the golden era, ( almost identical), why pick on SmtMS alone? I will give links to a dozen renderings by other singers , all very famous but non-telugu, from tube. If all of them make the same 'mistake', it is definitely a motivated attack on the greatest musician personality of our era. Somehow, Smt.MS seems to be easy target for iconoclasts and non-iconos as well.
Am I the only person, who hears rhyme and poetry in Purandara dasa sahityams?
-----------------------------------------------
I would suggest that we 'listen' to he music and not 'read' or 'see'.. Thyagaraja aaraadhana festival will recover its sanctity if only Nagaswarakm and Tavil vidwans are allowed besides instrumentalists with STRICT BAN on televising the event.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 02 Apr 2018, 15:29

This page gives Smt.MS rendering of famous Meera bajan. Hari Thum haro. The incidents mentioned are frequent themes in Vaishnava literature. ( Draupadhi, Prhaladha and Gajendra). There are many hindi pundits who say that meera bajans are a dialect of Hindi. Music set by Piano Vaidhyanathan. a genius. Ragam Darbari Kanada. Followed by the relevant passage by Barathy in Panchali sabatham. That is LITERATURE.
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... -thum-haro
and this song is inimitable even by Smt MS herself!
Leave Smt.MS alone.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 02 Apr 2018, 15:52

vgovindan wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 15:00 I don't understand as to why you take the name any other artist (NSG). If any such artist says something absurd, the remark would continue

Hope it is not the "gender card" being played. That would be an insult to all concerned.