Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Oct 2007, 02:33

Arun, CML, understood your points about 'sharpness'. ( though not the oxymoronic part, but that is not important now ). I will have to see how I can incorporate that. I will pick this back up later on.

With respect to swara breakdown, I am quite in awe that you all got it so close. Suji probably decoded it on the fly on her violin without writing down anything. Arun, as usual impressive, understood your point about the execution of 'S PA'. Also you are right, the 'P N' in the second line is really short. CML, great job. If one of you had given me the same thing, I would have definitely struggled. So I do not want to be in a position of evaluating your answers ( which is not the point of these exercises anyway ). Quite impressive.

CML, you had the last line as P N P M G, R G S, . I listened to this again. It is more like taking off from P to S and landing on N. So you hearing 'P' at the beginning of the line is correct.

CML, in your midi piece, I wonder why the second swara ('N') somehow does not sound right? It seems to be a bit higher, doesn't it? Also, S M G M did not sound right. It may all be the artifact of how it synthesizes the sound from coded notes.

A question. What krithi do you think inspired this melody? ( carefully worded

)

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Oct 2007, 03:05

Suji probably decoded it on the fly on her violin without writing down anything.

Absolutely correct!

I have been learning a piece in kEdAram, so it was timely.
This raga sounds easy, but it is quite difficult to execute all the subtle gamakas.

And VK, I did not see anything cml mentioned in your playing.
Flute I think is technically difficult instrument I guess and your playing is melodious

And Arun thanks for the explanation in post 137

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Oct 2007, 03:23

vk - oxymoronic as it implies more gamakam is actually bad for cm and melody

Btw, in the midi sample that N3 is held flat and so that frequency range is more emphasized. In kedaram, IMO the ni would not be (usually?) flat. It also would be delivered with emphasis and thus have a tinge of sa. Coming from pa would be a (p)/(s`)n where the /(s') part is done very quickly with emphasis (both you and suji indeed have done this). So there is no over-emphasis on n3 area throughout.

It also can be done without slide-up from pa: p (s)`n where the starting part at s' part is given emphasis/azhuttam.

I agree with suji that kedaram indeed is not as easy as its "scalar-like" structure may led one to think so. Even if you simply sing the aro/avaro, you can get away with a mostly flat arohana - but avarohana has a lot more subtlety, a lot more character (bhava). Each swara coming down has to be swayed like you would when you put a baby to sleep

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Oct 2007, 03:42

I agree with suji that kedaram indeed is not as easy as its "scalar-like" structure may led one to think so. Even if you simply sing the aro/avaro, you can get away with a mostly flat arohana - but avarohana has a lot more subtlety, a lot more character (bhava). Each swara coming down has to be swayed like you would when you put a baby to sleep

here's the aro/ava from my earlier recording. Good for a post-lunch nap

http://www.sendspace.com/file/fhwq0s

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Oct 2007, 03:56

S R G,(violates grammar)

Not really..
Here's the note from our dear missing member

Although SMGM is given in the ascent, SGM is also used (as seen in the ciTTeswara for paTNam`s "samayamidE nannu brOva". Also rarely "GRMGR" and some sancAras with R in ascent occur. "SRG,,,,,S" is a characteristic phrase that immediately brings kEdAra to mind.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Oct 2007, 04:02

Yes, of course. S R G ,, S is the stamp of kEdara, along withe P N P M G R S, where the N is so low, that it can be D! IIRC, I have heard a rendition where even D was used, without spoiling the rAgabhAva. Some older texts indicate alpa dhaivata for this rAGa I think - but I need to check on this.

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Oct 2007, 06:00

Suji Ram wrote:
I agree with suji that kedaram indeed is not as easy as its "scalar-like" structure may led one to think so. Even if you simply sing the aro/avaro, you can get away with a mostly flat arohana - but avarohana has a lot more subtlety, a lot more character (bhava). Each swara coming down has to be swayed like you would when you put a baby to sleep
here's the aro/ava from my earlier recording. Good for a post-lunch nap

http://www.sendspace.com/file/fhwq0s

Interesting suji. Have you played - S /G G M~ P / N~ S? It did not occur to me that ma and ni occur in these flavors too in kedaram.

Btw, going with the lullaby theme - the ni seemed to have tinge of nilambari to it

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Oct 2007, 06:04

ramakriya wrote:along withe P N P M G R S, where the N is so low, that it can be D!-Ramakriya

Maybe I am mistaken the higher (i.e. more in line with kakali) also seems fine here (?)

Also, another wild hypothesis: I think if d2 is rendered following p with emphasis (i.e. like in Sankarabharanam) its going to have a take-of from pa, and a slight tinge of the higher swara. Then I guess that its pretty much going to have a similar pitch movement to ni as in kedaram?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Oct 2007, 07:16

Have you played - S /G G M~ P / N~ S?

Nope,
I played S s/M G M~(pmpm) P/ sN~ S'

on return
S sN P pM mG RgrS

It is hard to explain. The touches around each swara is unique.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Oct 2007, 07:34

I would add that the avarOhaNam part of kEdAram sounds more like 'coaxing' a child to go to sleep.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Oct 2007, 11:00

arunk wrote:vk,cmlover: what kind of bank of samples are you guys envisioning to help? Just samples + answers (like the first couple you put up)? I think best for that is an instrumentalist (like suji )

What I originally had in mind was as described in post #170 here: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=59693#p59693

For each raga, create recordings of characteristic phrases that immediately brings out the raga identity. I agree it is a bit of a tall order but we can make a start. I also agree Suji is the right person to provide the recordings. Each snippet may not be longer than a 2 to 3 seconds, may be the longest is probably 10 seconds. But if a particular usage can not be brought out without the surrounding context, then we can have that also ( but with the timings marked where the phrase begins and ends ).

Naada Priya · Post by **Naada Priya** » 16 Oct 2007, 13:17

Could anyone pls tell me what is being discussed here. Pls dont mind .. its looking like greek and Latin to me...!!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Oct 2007, 20:26

Oh! This is a language called 'cmskritam' wriiten in the lipi 'cmnAgari' which is the language of a few CM Geeks

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Oct 2007, 21:46

Naada Priya wrote:Could anyone pls tell me what is being discussed here. Pls dont mind .. its looking like greek and Latin to me...!!

We post questions in this thread
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3666&p=4

The questions are in the form of quiz supported by a clip which interested folks download, listen and answer in this thread.

Following that, a long discussion proceeds which is (only ) understood by those who participate and also those who comment to those comments and so on.

The basic idea is swara identification in specific raga, phrases etc.

And offcourse learn...

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Oct 2007, 21:48

cmlover wrote:Oh! This is a language called 'cmskritam' wriiten in the lipi 'cmnAgari' which is the language of a few CM Geeks

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Oct 2007, 02:07

And eavesdroppers are welcome, naadapriya. I am one...

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 17 Oct 2007, 10:50

lol... I THOUGHT I could participate, but decided that when people like arasi, cml, suji ram, arunk, vk, etc., are here I should learn and not interfere

....

Of course there are other reasons for not participating (time.........)

Cheers
Ninja

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Oct 2007, 11:20

he.. he.. All fellow dabblers are welcome whenever time and inclination permits. There is a gradation of dabblers and that very much helps in the learning process. I don't mind the place towards the bottom of the dabbler-pole!!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Oct 2007, 11:45

Suji: Sample 13.. excellent. How good it is? When I first listened to it, I forgot I am supposed to be decoding it, it was that good.

No answers yet..

BTW, from the name of the file I thought it was a padam

.. alright before I get kicked out of the kalalaya, let me get back to listening.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 17 Oct 2007, 11:51

vasanthakokilam wrote:Suji: Sample 13.. excellent. How good it is? When I first listened to it, I forgot I am supposed to be decoding it, it was that good.

No answers yet..

BTW, from the name of the file I thought it was a padam .. alright before I get kicked out of the kalalaya, let me get back to listening.

I had another file named XY. But XX seemed better

Thanks VK.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Oct 2007, 12:08

Suji: Is your sruthi for this D as opposed to your usual D#?

It sounds like a pratimadyama raga and the usages remind me of a very familar song ( especially around the 5-6 seconds mark ) but I am not latching on to the name yet. It is one of those things, it is right up there to come out but not quite happening yet

I have got to get to bed, may be it will come to me tomorrow.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Oct 2007, 20:42

Suji,
I hear ga ri gA pa ma pA ...(?) nI da pa mA
And also ODODi vandEn kaNNA in the offing.
Then again, I am a struggling student in the class...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Oct 2007, 20:50

I am currenlty putting the raga in the vicinity/neighborhood of Hemavathi, saraswathi etc. but may not be correct.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 17 Oct 2007, 21:42

Suji: Is your sruthi for this D as opposed to your usual D#?

Congrats VK ! you got the sruti!

Good going Arasi. You started good. Arrive at where you started and you will be fine.. that's a clue

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Oct 2007, 22:00

vasanthakokilam wrote:I am currenlty putting the raga in the vicinity/neighborhood of Hemavathi, saraswathi etc. but may not be correct.

good going

And assuming I am right, arasi is also on the right track

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Oct 2007, 23:20

madhuvanti?
but then ga ri gaa is not acceptable

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Oct 2007, 23:23

Ok! it is

Then it is madhuvanti

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 17 Oct 2007, 23:36

cmlover wrote:Ok! it is
Then it is madhuvanti

Commmon cml! give it another try!
You don't want my effort to go in vain?!!

I expected you of all to get it right..

Decode and you will arrive

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 18 Oct 2007, 01:42

arunk wrote:
vasanthakokilam wrote:I am currenlty putting the raga in the vicinity/neighborhood of Hemavathi, saraswathi etc. but may not be correct.
good going

And assuming I am right, arasi is also on the right track

I do not know this ODODi vandEn kaNNa song - but it looks like a svaraprastAra, with Sri kAnti matim in the offing !

g r g, | m m p, | p m p, | d p d, | n d n, | d m p, |p m g r || Sri kAnti matim||

May be Suji Ram can confirm, if indeed she was playing Sri Kantimatim.

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Oct 2007, 02:05

i meant the grg pmp part (albeit missing some things)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Oct 2007, 02:13

ODODi vandEn is in dharmavati (http://www.karnatik.com/c3294.shtml) - close but ..

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Oct 2007, 02:46

One correction in the song:

vizhi unRan (vizhi=eye, eyes: unRan=your)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Oct 2007, 02:51

Then ramakriya could have got it...

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 18 Oct 2007, 04:21

Interesting so far....
I'm not giving the answer yet.
anyone with swara breakdown.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 18 Oct 2007, 04:33

Suji Ram wrote:Interesting so far....
I'm not giving the answer yet.
anyone with swara breakdown.

It is in my earlier post.

-Ramakriya

paddu · Post by **paddu** » 18 Oct 2007, 09:36

Hi,
Please pardon a novice like me. Take a look at my attempt

1. Raga Hemavati
2. The swaras are

g r g ,| m p m ,| p d n ,| d p d ,| n d n ,|d p m ,| p m r g|

Thanks
Paddu

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Oct 2007, 09:59

This is what I got:

G2 R2 G,
G M2 P,
M M P,
P D N2 D P
N D P MA,
(G) M P M G

Fits hemavathi

I still can not get the song this bit reminds me of. It is still waiting to come out..somehow I have this feeling it has the word 'sarasama' or 'samarasama' or something like that... quite vague and muddy recollection though.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Oct 2007, 10:32

Just got back my internet connection.
Here is my final offer:
g r g, | m m p, | p m p, | d n d, | n d n, | d pm, |p m g r |

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 18 Oct 2007, 11:34

Thank you folks for answering

Pretty interesting results from all of you.
I'm still waiting for a totally correct answer-
swara breakdown none of you have it completely correct- though ramakriya is close- but has 2 errors (I'm sure at least one I didn't falter because another two of you got it right!)

As for the raga it is hEmAvati-
VK, you mentioned it earlier being in its vicinity. Nice that you spotted M2 and later decide it must be hEmAvati
Ramakriya got the raga and the kriti following correct. I deliberately did not play the last swara which ended in S since it will take you to Sri kAntimatIm automatically since that's the only familiar kriti in this raga.

The key swara to differentiate from dharmAvati offcourse is N2 which occurs with characteristic gamaka from D2. You can spot that at 6 sec.
It did not occur to me that folks could confuse with dharmavati. But as Arun pointed out it is very close and I felt the same after listening to TNS sing ODODi in MIO. So Arasi don't lose heart.
But still the sway in the raga and moods are different and I am only beginning to understand now.

Welcome Paddu, I appreciate your participation.

Good CML you corrected yourself, but still errors in swaras. I think your favorite raga is madhuvanti and you thought it too quickly. But then it is a janya of Dharmavati. But you can clearly hear all the swaras RGMPDN except S, so no confusion.

Ill post the answer later. One clue is the swaras follow a pattern (elementary math- BAB CBC, DCD) which progress as you go higher.
offcourse I was dabbling so errors could have creeped in.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 18 Oct 2007, 11:37

As a dabbler I also would like a feedback on this clip.
How did I convey this piece to you?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 18 Oct 2007, 11:38

I still can not get the song this bit reminds me of. It is still waiting to come out..somehow I have this feeling it has the word 'sarasama' and 'samarasama' or something like that... quite vague and muddy recollection though.

Now you can compose one on those lines

Where you thinking bhavapriya? Suryaprakash has those lines in his composition. It is also a M2 raga with G@ and N2

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Oct 2007, 20:08

my answer:

hEmavati

(r)/g r g~
(g)/m (p)m m/p
p m p
d p d
n d /n~
d m p
(?/)p m g r

I had trouble labelling #2. gmg would have fit with the general pattern but the pitches as I hear it dont agree to it

. I dont think I got this right.

Nice job suji. Nice bhava there! The tone is also sweet!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Oct 2007, 20:09

Thanks Suji
As my internet was down whole of yesterday I was indeed playing with your clip which was quite entertaining. It was too difficult for me to move away from 'madhuvanti' but finally I focussed on the svaras rather than on the raga. When I had decoded to my satisfaction (and I was careful not to be deluded by the math as I thought each note must sound true and not be 'dictated' by math) I found a remarkable similarity to ramakriya (who is an expert) but I clung on to my decoding. I was surprised our Guru did not try his hands at it. You have really wrenched my mind into thinking 'svaras' rather than phrases or patterns! You have done a great job of educating (and entertaining !).
Now await the final answer.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Oct 2007, 20:15

By the by did you notice that if we had automatically assumed your shruti to be D# instead of D the N2 would become N3 and will take us to dharmavati. But you let the cat out by agreeing with VK that you were at D. One semitone shift can make all the difference in the world !

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Oct 2007, 20:16

hEmavati vs dharmavati:

hemavati: d2 is (usually) flat, while n2 (usually) takes gamakas.

dharmavati: d2 (usually) takes gamaka and n3 is usually flat (or has slight gamakas e.g. with sa).

I believe this is true for many other d2-n2 and d3-n3 ragas as it may be dependent on the spacing with neighboring swaras (particularly spacing of next higher swara and what it is).

Although I cannot pin-point how, I believe this affects phrasing with other swaras in appropriate contexts, in particular their modulations.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Oct 2007, 20:23

Interesting point Arun!
The 'neighbourhood' restriction makes sense. Is it possible that the pratimadhyama rags have less scope for gamaka on madhyama due to the closeness with the pancamam?
Ramakriya
Would like your views too!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Oct 2007, 20:28

no - m2 has spacing in front of atleast 1 whole tone (g3) or 3 semi-tones (g2)

That also helps. So I should correct and say spacing on either side plays a role.

But I dont know what gamakas d2 would take if you have p-d2-n2. It certainly takes it when you go p-d2-p - but I think it is different. But then it is usually dangerous to formulate such rules in an organic medium like music. That is why i added the "(usually)" tag - that is my means of escaping

But you make it p-d2-s (mohanam, and the s-d2 combination also in aTANa) and the extra spacing gives a lot of flexibility to d2.

Same way you see in abhOgi with m1-d2-s. There is all kinds of spacing and thus d2 takes wide and deep gamakas.

Also see p-n2-s in abhEri, suddha-dhanyasi etc and the gamakas of n2. Compare that with the kind of gamakas on n3 in p-n3-s in jaganmohini, kedaram,gowla . Here spacing before the ni is quite wide (albeit different lengths) but the spacing above is restricted in n3 and not so in n2. That I think affects the gamakas.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Oct 2007, 20:51

In general what I said above and here should be taken with more than a pinch of salt (as I am just wildly hypothesizing!). I dont think it is advisable to formulate hard rules. If any all this is food for thought that maybe there are some bits of tangible clues behind the melodic characters of the ragas

I think you will find as many exceptions as there are rules. I think spacing on both sides counts but in different ways, and the relationship to other swaras also counts. Thus a single swara make take different gamakas in ascent and descent - depending on neighbouring swaras as well as other swaras in the raga.

Some more points:

Take tODi ga vs say kIravANi/kharaharpriya. In tODi, it has very good spacing either side and hence does move a lot. The ga in kharaharapriya etc. also moves (spacing there with higher swara but not with lower) but differently and of course not as widely as tODi.

But compare tODi ga vs. ga in dhEnuka. Both have same spacing but (i believe) dhEnuka ga is flat. Why? Perhaps for melodic individuality. But could it be because it is d1-n3 vs d2-n2? In toDi g2 maybe works in tandem with n2. Both have good spacing and g2-n2 has sa-pa relationship. In dhEnuka, you have n3, and so no sa-pa samvadi swara for g2. Instead it then has a better relationship with d1 (sa-ma samvadi). But d1 does not swing ike n2 (close to pa?). So maybe that is why g2 does not swing like in tODi in dhenuka even if the same spacing is there. This applies to my earlier point that swaras affect each other.

Arun

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 18 Oct 2007, 21:46

Wow, the discussion sounds more like my research area now!! neighborhood functions, cellular automata, model matching... only thing left out is control!!!!!!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 18 Oct 2007, 22:38

Hey thanks to all on your feedback! I really enjoyed too in making this clip and I kept listening to it continously(in all immodesty) but more so to see if I made any mistake which could mislead.

Now that we have Arun's answer too (you do want to keep your genius status right?

)
here is the answer-

G R G~, M G M~, P M P, D P D~, N D N~, D P M~, P M G R

I must admit that MGM~ was the most difficult to vAsify.
I tried my best and if you believe it is there you can hear it too

This is what is called mazhupufying

The difficulty is the distance between M2 and G2 and back to M2 and that too with a gamaka on M2. And mind you, you have to start it as soon as you finish the gamaka on G2 in the first combo G R G~. This has been very challenging. I could get it if I played slow or without gamaka on M@ but that spoils the whole flow and slur and speed with which it needs to be rendered.
But however it did not interfere with hEmavati raga flow I guess. Try listening again at that spot taking into consideration what I wrote and you will understand the difficulty.

In this piece I missed out on gamaka on the D P M~. I had it in another recording and it sounds too good to have a gamaka there.

Yes I let the cat out by accepting the Sruti in the hope that we don't have further digression. But did identifying sruti really help in identifying this raga or swaras? or a confusion with another? I think it doesn't. An internal sruti sense is what would matter here- meaning meditating about the phrases.

I'm wondering if there is any confusion with Sanmukhapriya in the initial part as all the swaras until D appears would be same. But I think the usages are different. I tried playing with D1 the same set of swaras but it didn't even seem like even S'priya at all. This is what baffles me. How do artists come up with swaras for each raga when purvanga or uttaranga overlap.

I like ragas with D2N2 and they come in all flavors.

Nice discussion folks!!