IS CARNATIC MUSIC STAGNANT

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 13 Aug 2010, 15:55

I agree with Suresh.. It is thoroughly unfair to TMK. We have no business to let such comments stay here. This is what makes rasikas.org such a scary place for artists to participate , I guess .
It is definitely equal to going two steps back.We never learn from our mistakes.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 13 Aug 2010, 16:16

kssr wrote:
There is one more common example for Neutral Equilibrium- The Thanjavur Thalayatti Bommai- If you push to one side or front or back, always comes back to its original position. Second example is that given by MK, sphere or cylinder when it is rolled assumes a similar but not same position.

The former is an example of "stable" equilibrium and not "neutral" equilibrium which the latter (given by MK) is.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Aug 2010, 16:44

Thimma
I always respect your views and advice.
..and of course not the childish outbursts of sureshvv
Perhaps it is the humour vein in me (not the prankster as you had described) to quip based on the 'hot' discussions
on TMK earlier. I meant no slur on the eminent musician but was not quite in line with his views on this issue!
However in deference to your advice I am withdrawing my post.
But I leave it to R-T to edit or express his views freely...

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 13 Aug 2010, 16:48

mankuthimma wrote:I agree with Suresh.. It is thoroughly unfair to TMK. We have no business to let such comments stay here. This is what makes rasikas.org such a scary place for artists to participate , I guess .
It is definitely equal to going two steps back.We never learn from our mistakes.

I completely disagree. So long as people like TMK show a lack of respect for rasikas (even to the point of threatening them with court orders etc), we rasikas should also reciprocate accordingly. And if that includes mocking him, so be it.
I find his pronouncements on his website (he used to call them 'krishna uvaacha') only reveal his headweight. And the latest one is just another publicity stunt. The sooner he gets back to music, the better it is for him and rasikas.

And I am still waiting for him to apologise in 6 (or was it 7) forums.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Aug 2010, 17:23

The storm has died down, the rumblings continue. That it should move from ire to humour is probably healthy. The joke has a little time to run yet, then it too will pass...

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 13 Aug 2010, 17:24

Thanks CML .I am a bit concerned about you alone since you are part of the establishment .
I am not much concerned about RT's views, as a Member . He has every right to peek into the website of an artist he does not like and get worked up and speak as the head of a rasikas union committee.

.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 13 Aug 2010, 17:31

I am not much concerned about RT's views

Darn, and I thought my views matter... Oh well.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Aug 2010, 17:39

They matter to a few, r-t!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 13 Aug 2010, 18:25

Nick, thank goodness you didn't say "They matter to few" - that would have included none!
Phew!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 13 Aug 2010, 18:26

what is this Union, inquilab sindhabad, etc in CM - r-t are you planning any of these?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Aug 2010, 18:43

FYI Thimma
I am not part of the establishment. My views are entirely my own and do not represent
the policies and attitudes of rasikas.org
That is a big misunderstanding that many have!
I do have every right to hold and express my personal views like any other member of this Forum.
I am subject to being rebuked/warned/banned/... just like any of you by the establishment
if and when I cross the lines!
I for one stand up for the Freedom of Expression as long as it is expressed decently and which
causes no harm to my fellow Human Beings.
I am ready to admit my errors and am quick to apologize if and when I go wrong.
Even if I am not wrong I am willing to comply by the advice given by a few such as
you/ arasi/ VK/Arun/Uday.... who I respect and admire irrespective of your age...
I love this Forum very dearly and will not permit any one harm its integrity!
Above all Humour is my life blood at this stage in my life and when I lose it then
CML is dead!
But if at any time my Humour is misdirected do let me know
To err is Human...

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 13 Aug 2010, 19:54

mankuthimma wrote:. He has every right to peek into the website of an artist he does not like and get worked up and speak as the head of a rasikas union committee.
.

I vehemently protest this. Nobody can speak for me ( I am a rasika too) as "head" or a "tail" any union committee which does not exist, without my consent. Even if a majority of rasikas agree to a viewpoint, it cannot be projected as viewpoint of all, at least in this forum.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 13 Aug 2010, 19:56

Nick H wrote:They matter to a few, r-t!

You blew your chance, Nick.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Aug 2010, 21:36

Unusually, I remain silent, mahakavi

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 13 Aug 2010, 22:31

ragam-talam wrote: I find his pronouncements on his website (he used to call them 'krishna uvaacha') only reveal his headweight.

All it means is "Krishna said". And it is a light punny expression. You may be reading way too much more into it.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 13 Aug 2010, 22:37

cmlover wrote: However in deference to your advice I am withdrawing my post.

Well done! Hope better sense will prevail next time you decide to make a funny joke at someone else's expense or insult whole groups of people by stereotyping them.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 13 Aug 2010, 23:00

cmlover wrote:I like the term 'dynamic equilibrium' where the new is assimilated and integrated. Unfortunately CM at present is doing neither.

It is doing both and I think you are being short sighted for not recognizing it. However, real assimilation and integration happens over time and will be quite invisible to someone who is constantly on the watch. Frankly I think your real complaint is that CM is not assimilating or integrating aspects of your choice.

For example SKR introduced dvimadhyama ragas and provided fine examples
but the efforts died with him.

Your lamenting the demise of dvimadhyama ragas is highly premature.
Dvimadhyama ragas are featured regularly in many concerts although in general I find instrumentalists quicker to experiment than vocalists are.

Nobody sings the fine compositions of new vaggeyakarakas but only do lipservice.
Case in point is ignoring even the nice compositions of DRS/Arasi/SR/Ramaraj/... even
from our own fold.

Excuse me but your parochialism is showing. The jury is out on the "fine" compositions. Cruel as it may be, we will have to see how many outlast their composer.

Present day (talented/successful) performers have mostly set their mind only on 'cash' and are
ignoring the development of the Arts itself.

Here is another fine instance of your stereotyping and bulk-mode character assassination. You would be smart to retract this too, that is if you could think for yourself instead of waiting for intervention from arasi / Uday / arun / thimma.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Aug 2010, 23:52

Suresh: I do not think it is character assassination in this case. Bulk-mode? yes, stereotype? yes and it is a definitely a challenge-able assertion. So challenge away.

I personally do not think there is anything wrong at all in asking for top money. For some reason, we accept that in other professions but not musicians... We do not need to put a value judgment on musicians who charge high concert fees. If you take that out, then it is a good point to debate if the top tier musicians are doing enough to further the art form or not.
I see a lot of activity by top tier musicians and we can discuss if that qualifies as 'improving the state of the art' by our esteemed members.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 14 Aug 2010, 00:03

For what it is worth: my impression of TM Krishna is that he is one of the few current "Chennai circuit" musicians to understand the virtue of slower and reposeful renditions, eschewing too many gamaka and laya tricks. The move to become a "listener" for a while is also a good one. Bhimsen Joshi did it and later reminisced that it was an excellent idea. I also appreciate the move to make concert recordings available to the general public without commercial restrictions.

It is good that someone is "seeing the light" before it is too late in the day. Now, if only he can set another example to address the problem of distractions such as wild gesticulations, facial contortions, over-vigorous tala-keeping...

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 14 Aug 2010, 00:39

sureshvv wrote:It is doing both and I think you are being short sighted for not recognizing it. However, real assimilation and integration happens over time and will be quite invisible to someone who is constantly on the watch.

I agree with your assertion that substantive assimilation of new ideas happens over time, and that quick popularity of a new concept is not a guarantee of its long-term impact.

Frankly I think your real complaint is that CM is not assimilating or integrating aspects of your choice.

I guess we all have choices. I tend to agree with CML on this one - in a broad-brush manner.

Your lamenting the demise of dvimadhyama ragas is highly premature.
Dvimadhyama ragas are featured regularly in many concerts although in general I find instrumentalists quicker to experiment than vocalists are.

Just curious - what compositions are there in dvimadhyama ragas, apart from the well-known Hamir Kalyani and maybe an occasional Shuddhasaranga ? I would like to know which are the ones in current use.

Excuse me but your parochialism is showing. The jury is out on the "fine" compositions. Cruel as it may be, we will have to see how many outlast their composer.

Nothing cruel about it - we will indeed have to see.

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Aug 2010, 01:46

sureshvv
I pardon your crude abrasive language. You are attacking me instead of logically attacking the arguments. Just nit-picking.
It is beneath my dignity to address your rants.
I am just making a general statement that CM has been commercialized instead of the
high ideals promoted by its founders.
I am amused that you take seriously some of my statements made in a lighter vein.
Perhaps you lack a sense of humour which is unfortunate and may even affect your
expectation of life. Take it as a friendly medical advice..
Again if you have any private grouses do contact me through the Forum email.
If there is a public complaint you can always register it to the management.
But do not infringe on my Freedom of Expression..

I have no malice towards you or for that matter against anybody!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 14 Aug 2010, 01:51

Distasteful as it may be, let me quote the OP one more time:

cmlover wrote: Present day (talented/successful) performers have mostly set their mind only on 'cash' and are
ignoring the development of the Arts itself.

This is an attack on a whole generation of musicians. It questions their professional values and ethics by attributing solely venal motives to their practice. It is made in an off-the-cuff manner without presenting any evidence.

vasanthakokilam wrote:Suresh: I do not think it is character assassination in this case.

Sorry vk... You must be standing too close to the "establishment"!

Bulk-mode? yes, stereotype? yes and it is a definitely a challenge-able assertion. So challenge away.

It is eminently challengeable. I also consider it beneath contempt to respond to such broad off-the-cuff slander.

I see a lot of activity by top tier musicians and we can discuss if that qualifies as 'improving the state of the art' by our esteemed members.

Sorry vk, but when you start dropping phrases such as "improving the state of the art", it seems to me that you really don't appreciate how art differs from most other mundane pursuits that keep human beings occupied. Art does not improve! Sanjay does not sing any better than Ariyakkudi. Ilayaraja's music is not better than MSV's or KVM's.

Art evolves along with the people involved in it. This does not happen by the concerted and deliberate efforts of a few or even many with noble intentions who toil away tirelessly to invent something that they can unveil to the eagerly waiting rasika. You can't have a Todi 2.0

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:03

>Sorry vk... You must be standing too close to the "establishment"!

Suresh, that is completely unnecessary.

Btw, what is all this about 'establishment'? I am not part of or standing close to this establishment. Think of me as as part of the janitorial staff

Why are you getting so worked up on the messengers rather than the message? My point was restricted to the one I responded to and I thought it did not rise to the level of demanding a 'take back/retraction'.

Debate the message as you did in the rest of your post above. ( And I thought I was on your side of whatever debate we are having here. I do not have actually anything to disagree with you on those points )

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:04

cmlover wrote:sureshvv
I pardon your crude abrasive language.

Thank you but I don't remember asking for it. However I am thrilled that you are able to recognize it from others and hope fervently that you will try harder to find it in your own contributions.

You are attacking me instead of logically attacking the arguments. Just nit-picking.

You do that well.

It is beneath my dignity to address your rants.

Well... You have stooped low once again then.

I am just making a general statement that CM has been commercialized instead of the
high ideals promoted by its founders.

Breaking news! CM has no founders! Details at 11.

I am amused that you take seriously some of my statements made in a lighter vein.
Perhaps you lack a sense of humour which is unfortunate and may even affect your
expectation of life. Take it as a friendly medical advice..

Thank you. Check is in the mail!

Again if you have any private grouses do contact me through the Forum email.
If there is a public complaint you can always register it to the management.

No private grouse or public complaint warranted.

But do not infringe on my Freedom of Expression..

No.. I will let you do that to yourself.

I have no malice towards you or for that matter against anybody!

Me neither... Peace!

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:11

I don't know if carnatic music is stagnant, but the "carnatic community" is extremely arrogant and high-headed. Do you need evidence?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:12

We are just dynamic and energetic

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:13

removed.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:16

Sangeet Rasik wrote:. The move to become a "listener" for a while is also a good one. I also appreciate the move to make concert recordings available to the general public without commercial restrictions.

It is good that someone is "seeing the light" before it is too late in the day. Now, if only he can set another example to address the problem of distractions such as wild gesticulations, facial contortions, over-vigorous tala-keeping...

SR

Whether TMK is reacting to rasikas' criticism or opening his recordings for everybody (one at a time, of course---we have to wait for the next item) on his own is not evident yet. Sitting out the December stage performance is his choice. He may want to listen to other performers to learn something. Besides, December season is really strenuous for most musicians and rasikas too (The situation is similar to attending a conference and exhibits session where you want to attend the lectures of your choice and visit the booths---strenuous indeed). So TMK is taking it easy this December. Of course his January schedule is back to the usual crowded one.

As for the contortions, gesticulations etc., let us not please impose restrictions on the musicians. They go with their performance, whether we like them or not. If you go to the stage and hold both hands of the singer, his vocal chord will definitely fail. The mannerisms are endemic to the performers. I am also annoyed by such wild gesticulations. But I guess they cannot do without those if it is an ingrained habit.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:18

are you on a legal visa?

ha...ha..

On behalf of all the janitorial professionals in the world, I demand you take that comment back

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:19

Frankly I think your real complaint is that CM is not assimilating or integrating aspects of your choice.

Sangeet Rasik wrote: I guess we all have choices. I tend to agree with CML on this one - in a broad-brush manner.

True... But if the art were assimilating and integrating aspects which just don't happen to be on your list of preferred choices, it would be wrong to say it was stagnating.

Just curious - what compositions are there in dvimadhyama ragas, apart from the well-known Hamir Kalyani and maybe an occasional Shuddhasaranga ? I would like to know which are the ones in current use.

Are we talking compositions or ragas? There are plenty of compositions in Hameer Kalyani. Saranga and Shudhsaarang are also featured quite frequently. Often the ragamalika section in the RTP employs dvimadhyama ragas whose names are not very common. Jayanthi Kumaresh played a dvimadhyama variation of Sudha Danyasi in her RTP sometime ago.

Nothing cruel about it - we will indeed have to see.

I find it a bit cruel that the genius of a composer is often not recognized during their life time. It may be a price to pay to keep the "art" classical.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:20

carnaticlaw wrote:I don't know if carnatic music is stagnant, but the "carnatic community" is extremely arrogant and high-headed. Do you need evidence?

Yes, please! There have been so many rants here already . Why should you be an exception?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:24

CL, I was 100% joking. You need not have removed your post..

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:34

vasanthakokilam wrote:>Sorry vk... You must be standing too close to the "establishment"!

Suresh, that is completely unnecessary.

I thought it was about time someone spoke up against CML's routine bashing (you may remember my previous spat with him on this

Feels like it was only yesterday drrrrrriiiiiiiing drrrriiiing ... ) of present day musicians and their lack of ethics and dedication. Especially someone whose opinion he valued. It's really not funny anymore even if always intended in a "lighter vein". Sorry to say you dropped the ball.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:47

Let me interject here. I am not new to controversy. I figure that vvsuresh meant the moderators as the establishment, which is not an unfair assessment. When some member is "out of line" a moderator may step in and delete an "objectionable" post. When the moderator himself crosses the line (vEliyE payirai mEydal---the fence is destroying the crop) another moderator should have the courage to pull up the "erring" moderator. That is what I think vvsuresh is insisting.

It would be useful if moderators do not post as often as they do, although I agree it is impinging on their FOE (freedom of expression). I see srkris stays on the sideline most of the time except when he feels he should dive in body, mind, and spirit.

Now let me play the role of a moderator this one time. Let us call a truce at this stage of the game.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:48

VK,

on a second thought, removing made sense

As such a lot is going on in AZ

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:48

sureshvv

I was referring to the dvimadhyama ragas 'invented' by SKR.
... not dvimadhyama ragas in general. Pl read my post carefully before you go off on a tangent.

carnaticlaw · Post by **carnaticlaw** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:52

What sureshvv mentions as 'establishment' is an inevitable sociological phenomenon - apart from moderators, any group will have its own factions and "dhaadhaas" . That 'establishment' will keep changing as and when new power rises. Nothing new.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Aug 2010, 02:53

cmlover wrote:sureshvv

. Read carefully before you shoot
your mouth!

Well, that is inflammatory language, alright!
The same message when stated as "Pl read my post carefully before you go off on a tangent", would be more acceptable.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Aug 2010, 03:01

MK
Do you want to muzzle me and Vk

There used to be the slogan 'Member First' for the Mods in the previous
incarnation of Rasikas.
If my Freedom is curtailed by being a mod then that effectively will 'Kill' CML

You can recommend that to srkris!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Aug 2010, 03:03

MK
you are not fair! You are not commenting on the language used by suresh.
At least let me retaliate once!

On second thought I took your advice and curbed my retaliation and edited my post!
noblesse oblige!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 14 Aug 2010, 03:44

mahakavi wrote:As for the contortions, gesticulations etc., let us not please impose restrictions on the musicians. They go with their performance, whether we like them or not. If you go to the stage and hold both hands of the singer, his vocal chord will definitely fail. The mannerisms are endemic to the performers. I am also annoyed by such wild gesticulations. But I guess they cannot do without those if it is an ingrained habit.

"Abhinaya" (appropriate gestures/histrionics) is certainly acceptable and can even enhance the performance. A limited amount of facial abhinaya, e.g. of the following variety - in order to express the "navarasas" - could actually be interesting:

http://www.cyberkerala.com/kathakali/navarasam.htm

In a similar vein, hand gestures (see the "Sketches" link in the URL below):

http://theory.tifr.res.in/~mukhi/Music/gandharva.html

There is a thread somewhere in rasikas.org on "Histrionics in Music". Not active now but was interesting.

What I am referring to as "gesticulations, contortions, etc" is another matter altogether. Just search Youtube to find plenty of examples, they are not most certainly "abhinaya" or "histrionics".

SR

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Aug 2010, 03:48

cmlover:
I did say if the moderators are restricted from posting often it would curtail their FOE, didn't I? I am not siding with anybody on this issue. I was pointing out what I perceived as sureshvv's view. You are well aware of the admonition, "siRiyOr seyda siRupizhaiyellAm periyOr Ayin poRuppadu kaDanE" (if younger folks make mistakes it behooves the older and wiser ones to accommodate them). While we are younger we want to prevail in any argument. As we get older and wiser it is better to give that rashness disadvantage to younger folks. When we (and others) know our mettle we don't have to prove it again. I should follow my own advice more often, I realize. But I still don't know if I am wiser!
In the case of a point/counterpoint it is difficult to point out who was crossing the line of norm first. Anyway let us put this to rest (sureshvv: are you in agreement to close this chapter now?)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Aug 2010, 04:15

I agree with your interpretation.
When you win an argument you lose a friend (and make an enemy).
I want to be friends with one and all!
I too have a long way to go before I conquer my Ego! Though time is short!
When I bid my final Good-bye I don't want anybody to feel bitter!

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Aug 2010, 05:09

Now, that feels better, doesn't it?
I will write an epitaph for you when the time comes. It will be a good one although you wouldn't be able to read it. Do they have email wherever you (and all of us) go?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Aug 2010, 05:33

sureshvv wrote: Sorry to say you dropped the ball.

I disagree, but I do not have the energy to continue this. So let us just agree to disagree and move on.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Aug 2010, 07:09

I think we can all heave a sigh of relief and say: arrogant? a rant fest? No! It's all because it happens to be Friday the Thirteenth

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 14 Aug 2010, 08:09

SR wrote

Abhinaya" (appropriate gestures/histrionics) is certainly acceptable and can even enhance the performance

http://www.mediafire.com/?a06al4556obo74h
A brilliant exposition of Kaunsi Kanada in that clip from the concert inside the Dargah. With milling crowds outside. The main singer takes a lot of time and care to educate the masses on how tricky a Kaunsi Kanada can be- The dos and donts of avoiding the traps of a Malkauns and a Darbari Kanada.
This is one of the finest I have heard in this raga . With eyes closed though.
Just look at his gesticulations. The file is big so I cant put up the whole.
In course of time the garland comes off . too.

So you guys who are complaining of TMK aint seen nothing yet

As a kid I used to enjoy Sripathi Padigars Concerts immensely ( Bhimsen Joshis disciple)
At the start of the raga , he would sport a neatly oiled and combed hairstyle.
By the start of the druth , he would be looking like Zakir Husain

So let us call truce and get on to the main subject.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Aug 2010, 08:27

mankuthimma:
Is that a concert stage? I thought he was playing gabadi (?) and simultaneously doing boxing with an invisible opponent.
This brings to mind the comment that Subbudu wrote way back.
"There are two people who sing while they dance. One is Balasaraswati and the other is MDR"

sramesh · Post by **sramesh** » 14 Aug 2010, 08:48

I woild like to say something under this heading an Instarumentalist or Vocalist should respect the audience as they are solely responsible for reaching an vocalist or instrumentalist to a top, so it is better to keep maximum restrainment which I felt during Ragapriya concert from TMK sir"s Vocal recital a lady was proudly scribbling something about
the concert

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 14 Aug 2010, 08:52

mankuthimma wrote:So you guys who are complaining of TMK aint seen nothing yet

Hilarious, Mankuthimma/Coolkarni. And thanks for the clip. But on a more serious note, what a pity that the beautiful music is disfigured by this excessive flailing about and making odd faces. Reduces art to a circus!
I guess it is OK if one is sitting at home and feeling in the mood for a little gestural expansiveness. But in public it is a different story.

SR