Trinity / Famous Vaggeyakaras vs. current composers

[mankuthimma]

The painting is the residue of the dance ritual that took place in the studio.

..... lovely . Thanks VK.

[munirao2001]

Thimma
Thanks for not only reading my post/reply but also for raising very important questions, which can lead to enlightenment. I am giving below the answers to the best of my knowledge:
1) 'Central Activity '- Undoubtedly, composing - vests with the original thinker and creator. The delivery part, consists of clear understanding, appreciation , practice and sincere rendition bringing forth the quality of the composition, with the flame and passion of the original composer. The inspiration of the original composition can lead to improvisation of the performer. If value added, the improvisation is welcome, appreciated and stays.

2)' Unfair bias' and 'Best was before us'- The statements have two dimensions and motives - need for protecting zealously the pleasure derived during the first experience and for its perpetuation - create value perception and revel in the support of rasikas for such idolatry creates for the practitioner. Excellence, is unstoppable, unrestrained and conditioned.

3)' singer thinking he can compose' - singer is also engaged in creative process, when his character is synonymous with the creator, bringing forth and delivery of the quality in the original composition and also flashes of brilliance arising out of his intuitive process and imagination, while delivering. With regards to composing the original and full composition, singer must be having the ability for composing. Most of the composers are singers also. But not all the singers are' full fledged' composers.

4) 'impact on the composers' - 1) driven by the subject 2) driven by the object 3) driven by the will. Inspired moment/thought develops, with creative effort and process. Inspiration, perspiration and the need are influencing and determining factors.

5) 'criteria for judgment' - There are broadly two types - entitled to their own opinion and judgment - One, with minimal efforts derives pleasure by being one with and safely en consed with the popular choice - Second, takes efforts to learn to understand, appreciate and derive great pleasure. The second type can not decry the first type but, take initiative and actions for the first to become the second type, willingly.

On the creative process, creation happens in Unity - first the unity of Consciousness(outward - temporal memory) with the Subconsciousness(inner-deeper memory) and unity of subconsciousness with the Supra consciousness(intuitive-genetic-ingrained memory).

[Nick H]

Does a familiarity with the delivery of the song tempt the singer to think that he too can compose ?

Among your many good questions/points, this one stands out a mile. Many singers may be tempted to compose. Most certainly it is a different skill, and if we want to know just how different, then there are several percussionists who can prove the point for us with "compositions" and arrangements that most certainly will not stand the test of time.

[munirao2001]

Nick H,
I have replied to Thimma's question " 3)' singer thinking he can compose' - singer is also engaged in creative process, when his character is synonymous with the creator, bringing forth and delivery of the quality in the original composition and also flashes of brilliance arising out of his intuitive process and imagination, while delivering. With regards to composing the original and full composition, singer must be having the ability for composing. Most of the composers are singers also. But not all the singers are' full fledged' composers."
Sangati ornamentation by Great Maestros/Maestros, which has become part of the tradition, stands testimony to my statement.

[Nick H]

Sorry, somehow I missed your post, and, I think several others, when I posted #53. I have to go back a page and catch up

[vgovindan]

prANa Anala sam-yOgamu valla
praNava nAdamu sapta svaramulai paraga
(mOkshamu galadA)

dEha udbhavambagu nAdamul
divyamau praNava AkAramu anE
dAhambu erugani mAnavul EcEru
(vara rAga - cencu kAmbhOji)

The operative word is 'dAhambu' - thirst - music is self-gratification first.

A lot of damange has been done by musicians due to irreverant use of sangatis just to show their vidvat. Such abuse is not going to advance CM anywhere.

[gobilalitha]

Extremely happy that Sri ,V Govindan has come back again.. Can expect thought provoking, informative posts GOBILALITHA

[munirao2001]

Vgovindan,
While there is no disagreement on your statement/reply "A lot of damange has been done by musicians due to irreverant use of sangatis just to show their vidvat. Such abuse is not going to advance CM anywhere.", the enrichment of tradition in CM has happened and will happen due to creative and rich contribution by Great Maestros/Maestros, through sangati ornamentations. CM's unique strength is infinite scope for manodharma based creativity and enrichment.
If rasikas become aware, demand pure and prestine quality of music, support meritorious and not extend support to all those popular musicians, who indulge in abuse and damage, in the name of 'style', the progress/advancement of CM is guaranteed. Rasikas action and support is URGENT and required NOW.

[munirao2001]

vgovindan,
You had posted "The operative word is 'dAhambu' - thirst - music is self-gratification first. "
The clarity on goals of CM will help in determination. The goals are 1) attainment of SAT-CHIT-ANANDA 2) Entertainment. To achieve the second goal, partaking the pleasure and offering the pleasure with Rasika(s), entertaining them is the goal. Musicians focus being entertainment of the Rasika(s), he/she will hone their skills and imagination in maximization of the pleasure by their deep understanding of the taste and expectation of the rasika(s). In this context 'dahambu' is for the skills set and delivery, through practice and promotion, to achieve popularity.
Before the advent of modern cutcheri format and system, musicians used to entertain their benefector(s)- Kings and Landlords and win their patronage.
All those musicians who had the only goal and the first goal, used the path of music offering as prayers to their istadevatha(s). Many musicians/Great Maestros had both the goals and struck a fine balance. For these two categories of musicians, " 'dAhambu' - thirst - music is self-gratification first. "

[vgovindan]

mr,
While I concede your view, I have a slightly different meaning of 'dAhamu' - thirst. If someone asks me a question, 'why I breathe', I can only answer, 'because I have to - I am made that way'. Similar is with music. You breathe music. May be this age is not meant for people who breathe music. But there are some who do so. There is tamil couplet - 'nallAr oruvar uLarEL avarporuTTu ellArkum peyyum mazhai'. If there is even one pious person, for his sake, it will rain for everyone. Somewhere there are such souls who breathe music, who do not have the constraint of entertaining others. But people will flock to him.

paramAnandamanE kamalamupai baka bEka celagiyEmi? (What is the use of crane and a frog sitting on the lotus of supreme bliss (of music)? (svara rAga sudhA)

[munirao2001]

vgovindan
Musician(s), who are performers, are duty bound to entertain and please the Rasikas and they get great pleasure, when their music achieves acceptance and popularity. They need recognition and rewards for their services - akin to life supporting system- prana vayu - breadth. They can not be derided and looked down.
If musician is singing for the self gratification only and in private quarters, it is sulabha marga for attaining the enlightenment and moksha. But, when musician is singing in public and with invitation, he is entertaining the rasika(s).
At any age, musicians of the three categories, I had mentioned in my post Dt.16th instant, will be there.

munirao2001

[vgovindan]

mr,
This thread is a comparison between current composers and Trinity/Famous Vaggeyakkaras. I have given the reasons why Trinity are called 'Trinity'. I am not for one moment suggesting that musicians should not earn money and should not entertain. But they remain musicians and entertainers and not composers of that reach whose kRtis remain ever-green.

Everyone who does kAli pUja does not become rAmakRshNa paramahaMsa; everyone who lectures in America does not become vivEkAnanda. But that does not mean the present generation does not have the potential. Every child born could become a rAmakRshNa paramahaMsa or vivEkAnanda.

There is an episode of an AzhvAr (don't remember his name) who, in his pUrvASrama was a thief and stole the ring of That ranganAtha, and lo, he become a saint, the next moment.

That momentary flash is all that required to transform a sinner into a saint. But we shall have to toil for aeons to earn that moment.

Hum intezAr karEngE khayAmat tak.

[arasi]

Govindan,
Tirumangai AzhvAr, if I remember right. Krishna will give an episodic account too, if he happens to see this!
True or fictitious, these stories are tales which signal to us that we need to elevate ourselves from mundane activities--a dose of wisdom for our ailing spiritual existence.

[venkatakailasam]

Article on Tirumanghai Alwar -His story can be read here:

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archi ... /0031.html

venkatakailasam

[vgovindan]

tirumangai AzhvAr -
The version I heard is given in the book 'Rambles in Vedanta' by BR Rajam Iyer -
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=89do ... od&f=false

[ksrimech]

Arasi & VGV: both of you are correct. Now that you have pulled out a favorite of mine. I can't keep my mouth shut.

neelan (as azhvAr's pUrvaSrama nAmA when he was a chief of thieves, kaLLarkuTTa talaivan) stops a marriage party at a place now known as tirumaNangkollai. The bride and groom were none other than amRtavalli tAyAr and vayalAli maNavALan (of tiruvAli tirunagari). neelan asks every one to remove all of their jewels and other wealth and to put on a big piece of cloth. When all of the jewels are put on the cloth neelan is about to pack up when he notices a ring on vayalAli maNavALan's toe. He asks the groom to remove it if he fears for his life. The groom tries telling him that he is not able to remove it. neelan jumps to the groom's feet and tries to bite it out without any luck. perumAL looks at tAyAr, smiles and says "nam kaliyanO!" (Isn't he kaliyan - the steadfast determined and haughty devotee?). neelan then leaves the rings on perumAL's toe and goes to carry the bag of jewels. He is not able to lift it. Then he takes his sword and keeps it near the groom's neck and says "You have put some mantra on this. Tell it to me and release the load or else.......". perumAL smiles and says "Come near me. I can only tell you since it is a secret." neelan gets his sword of perumAL's neck and gives his ear to perumAL. perumAL gives him the tirumantram "Om namO nArAyaNAya". vyAkyAna chakravarti periyavAcchAn piLLai in his periyatirumozhi avatarikai (introduction) re-counts this story until this point and then he then says azhvAr tirumanzhaiyAzhvAr AgirAr (Now, azhvAr becoms tirumangaiyAzhvAr!). tirumangai AzhvAr, then starts singing about the tirumantram, badrinAtan (one who gave naran the tirumantram) and mantrasvarUpa in naimSAranya and followed it up with many many more divya desams and divya leelas.

maNavALa mAmuni has composed a few pAsurams regarding this in his tirumangai azhvAr vadivazhagu vaibhava pAsurams and nAlAyira taniyan pAsurams:

mAlai taniyE vazhi parikka vENum enRu
kOlip padi irunda koRRavanE - vElai
aNainduruLum kaiyyAL aDiyEn vinaiyai
tuNindaruLa vEnum tuNindu.

urai kaLitta vALaiyotta vizhi maDandai mAdar mEl
uruga vaitta manam uDainda ulagaLanda nambi mEl
kuraiya vaitta maDal eDutta kuRayalAli tirumaNangkollai
tannil vazhiparitta kuRRa maRRa sengaiyAn.

maRai uraitta mandiraittai mAl uraikka avan munE
maDi oDukki manam uDaikki vAi pudaittu onDilar
kaRai kuLitha vEl aNaitta ninra vantha nilaimai
en kaNNai viTTu aganriDAdu kaliyan ANai ANaiyE.

iduvO tiruvarasu iduvo tirumaNangkollai
iduvO ezhilAli ennum Ur iduvO
tAn veDum kaliyan veruti
neDumAlai eTTezhuttum paritta iDam.

[uday_shankar]

Somewhere there are such souls who breathe music, who do not have the constraint of entertaining others. But people will flock to him.

govindan sir,
I've still not figured out how musical formalism can lead to anything other than sensual and intellectual "enjoyment". I can understand the potency of the bhakti rasa in a simple bhajan but once things get a little more complex in the form of rAga, tAla, sangati, etc... I am unable to see any "spiritual" purpose in them. It appears to be mostly an intellectual and sensual construct.

In fact I find all formalism of music - either playing or listening - a distraction from spiritual matters. The latter seems best investigated in the silence of one's heart without the distraction of rAga, tAla, sAhitya or bhAva but just being immersed in pure love.

Anything you have to say to demolish my limited notion of CM would be useful. Don't get me wrong...I enjoy CM immensely and it does something indescribably beautiful to me.

[rajeshnat]

Uday
You hit the nail on the head. I am always in the same thought process as you. Infact I would go to the extent of saying that for spirituality silence is the foundation, so CM or bhajan just does not fit in. However for a composer or musician spirituality can be thru CM, but certainly for a rasika it is very far stretched. Awaiting more inputs from govindan sir

[mankuthimma]

Silence ?
When things are going wrong around you ?
When the world moves one way , and you the other ?

The deafening silence of the inept , the coward , the arrogant , the malicious , the inactive ?

There is a kind of silence that VGV talks about , which is difficult to achieve - because you have to train yourself to smother the useless sounds . And it is in that backdrop of a pure silence , that the real music would reveal its colors .

Much of the problem relates to the poor state of the drone in the Silence - Drone - Music axis .
Why dont we all meet in Uday's Lab for a change . Things get so easily explained , once you enter there and make room for yourself

But we are swimming in waters , a bit downstream . Higher above lies the question :
Was CM meant for an audience , a sabha , an exultation .
Or was it meant as a dialog between the Devotee and his Lord .
Is life just about praying , praying and telling Lord almighty at the end of the journey that one was just good .
Or Good for something ?

[vgovindan]

Uday, Rajesh,

I request you go through this article - http://www.svbf.org/journal/vol1no2/nada.pdf.

munkuthimma,

None can beat you in putting things in their proper perspective. No exaggeration, no flattery, but simple appreciation.

God Bless u

[Nick H]

I am unable to see any "spiritual" purpose in them. It appears to be mostly an intellectual and sensual construct. ...

Distraction, it seems to me, can be very useful to the spiritual life. That which takes the attention away from oneself allows other things to happen within us. Whilst introspection may be necessary, I have experienced moments of "distraction" that have had a much, if not more, benefit than long, long periods of self-examination.

(of course, yes, there are different kinds of both)

Maybe I'm talking about a short cut, and maybe that short cut does not have the quality of proper discipline in some sort of meditation --- although I find that sometimes a certain discipline is required to still my mind, in a concert, and allow the process to take place.

Many processes go on when we listen to music, and performing it, as far as this mere listener is concerned, is such another dimension that I sometimes check to see if the musician's feet are touching the ground.

This thread seems to be joining with the Spiritual Quest thread. Perhaps that was inevitable.

Is life just about praying , praying and telling Lord almighty at the end of the journey that one was just good .
Or Good for something ?

Whatever one's belief (unless it is of just being snuffed out) there is the possibility of some final audit. I think there is such a thing --- and find it more and more daunting as I grow older.

Or Good for something ? --- in an nutshell, why spirituality must be about more than just self knowledge

[munirao2001]

vgovindan,
1) Besides 'trinity', there are many other composers(may not be prolific as 'trinity') and whose compositions have the reach and are ever green.
2) Compositions have achieved such reach/stature, not only based on the intrinsic quality but, also largely due to the masterly expositions and improvizations by Great Maestros.
3) Many compositions of the current composers/ composers other than trinity are excellant, no dbubt inspired by 'trinity'. To attain the reach and to become ever green, Great Maestros should handle that in a masterly manner. The recent out standing example is the work of Great Maestro Chitraveena Ravi Kiran on handling and popularising the Oothukadu Venkatakavi's compositions.

Uday-Shankar,
Nadothpathi of pure and powerful Nada and Nadanubhavam of such pure and powerful Nada give the rasika, the' thoughtless' moment(s). Such moment)s) infuse energy and one can become enlightened. The resultant effect leading to bliss-Ananda, Love-unconditional and brimming with compassion, transcendental and Unity with all the living beings. Thus attains spirutuality. All the other forms of music are either preparatory for Nadothpathi or for achieving a set purpose or goal, other than spiritual.

Thimma
"Was CM meant for an audience , a sabha , an exultation .
Or was it meant as a dialog between the Devotee and his Lord ." The answer is both. Even in puranic times, Narada , Nandikeshwara and Thumbura have not only used the music as prayer or offering but also for entertaining the Lord and Devathas. This remains same for all the other times,

[venkatakailasam]

The swaras in Raga elaboration heighten the various emotions or the mood of the human mind. These emotions are the Bhava .
The Swaras with high frequency; intensify the emotional content viz. the
Bhava. The Bhava is stated to be the mood, melody and metaphor.
Raga could induce or intensify joy or sorrow, violance or peace, sleep or devotion. Ragas can exhibit Sringaram, veeram, rudhram,santham karunyam,devotion Etc.,through Bhavas just as in nattiam.

The roots of carnatic Music is religious or Devotional.
Whether in joy or in sorrow, the Deity, is addressed through the Ragas suitable to the mood and occasion as composed by the Great Composers.
Composers include the great Azhwars, nayanars,Jayadevar,Purandara Ramadasar Tamil trinities and a host of others..
If the performance of the Artists is in the same frequency
with which they are composed, the Bhava is brought out.
This is a matter which should not be forgotten by the performers .

venkatakailasam

[mankuthimma]

I dont know if this is the case with others , but for me when I come across real good Music , I get a feeling
" I have been here before . This seems familiar to me " .
I cannot put a finger on the exact process that is taking place in my mind , but it happened to me when I was too small to theorise.
With Enati Nomu Phalamo , Gnanamosagarada , Ragas like Kedaragowla .
And again when I was old enough to theorise . Only difference is that now I could not theorise inspite of being old .

When the Oduvars voice at kapaleeswar temple would force me to sink to my knees at the entrance itself , or just the simple strumming of a Tanpuras strings or the magnificent landscapes painted by TNR _ Karaikurchi.
Definitely this music is from a different world . A different mode of thinking . Not a day passes without my pinching myself to make sure that all this stuff is true and not just a dream.
Only a Benevolent God could have helped with this and that suffices for me in my spiritual curiosities.

[mankuthimma]

VGV
I was only paraphrasing a poets thoughts..
It exactly 12 years ago,today , that I lost my Dad. Whom I miss very much.
I am myself still too young to have any original thoughts .They have all been thought before. |(
Silence
By Edgar Lee Masters 1869-1950
——————————————————————————–
I have known the silence of the stars and of the sea,
And the silence of the city when it pauses,
And the silence of a man and a maid,
And the silence of the sick
When their eyes roam about the room.
And I ask: For the depths,
Of what use is language?
A beast of the field moans a few times
When death takes its young.
And we are voiceless in the presence of realities –
We cannot speak.

A curious boy asks an old soldier
Sitting in front of the grocery store,
“How did you lose your leg?”
And the old soldier is struck with silence,
Or his mind flies away
Because he cannot concentrate it on Gettysburg.
It comes back jocosely
And he says, “A bear bit it off.”
And the boy wonders, while the old soldier
Dumbly, feebly lives over
The flashes of guns, the thunder of cannon,
The shrieks of the slain,
And himself lying on the ground,
And the hospital surgeons, the knives,
And the long days in bed.
But if he could describe it all
He would be an artist.
But if he were an artist there would be deeper wounds
Which he could not describe.

There is the silence of a great hatred,
And the silence of a great love,
And the silence of an embittered friendship.
There is the silence of a spiritual crisis,
Through which your soul, exquisitely tortured,
Comes with visions not to be uttered
Into a realm of higher life.
There is the silence of defeat.
There is the silence of those unjustly punished;
And the silence of the dying whose hand
Suddenly grips yours.
There is the silence between father and son,
When the father cannot explain his life,
Even though he be misunderstood for it.

There is the silence that comes between husband and wife.
There is the silence of those who have failed;
And the vast silence that covers
Broken nations and vanquished leaders.
There is the silence of Lincoln,
Thinking of the poverty of his youth.
And the silence of Napoleon
After Waterloo.
And the silence of Jeanne d’Arc
Saying amid the flames, “Blessed Jesus” –
Revealing in two words all sorrows, all hope.
And there is the silence of age,
Too full of wisdom for the tongue to utter it
In words intelligible to those who have not lived
The great range of life.

And there is the silence of the dead.
If we who are in life cannot speak
Of profound experiences,
Why do you marvel that the dead
Do not tell you of death?
Their silence shall be interpreted
As we approach them.
Unquote
Nick Says exactly that ...
Why do you marvel that the dead Do not tell you of death?
Their silence shall be interpreted As we approach them.

[PUNARVASU]

I remembered a 'kavithai-poem' I wrote on 'SILENCE'. Retrieving it from 'Rasikas.org'

Mounaththin Mozhi
Annaiyin mounam unnai azhavaiththu vEdanaippadutthum
Anbuththandaiyin mounam unnai achchuRuththum
Udan piRandoRin mounam unnai balaveenappaduththum
udanvaru vAzhkkaiththuNaiyin mounam unnai thanimaippaduththum
petra piLLaigaLin mounam unnai udAsInappaduththum
uRavinarin mounam unnai kAyappaduththum
utRa naNbargaLin mounam unnai anniyappaduththum
NatRavapayanAm nallAsAnin mounamO unnaiyE unakkuNarthi
unnai mEmbaduththum
Mounam undrE adan thAkkamthAn vevErU.

TRANSLATION
THE LANGUAGE OF SILENCE
Mother's silence makes yous sad, makes you cry
Father's silence frightens you
Siblings' silence weakens you
Spouse's silence makes you feel lonely
Relatives' silence wounds you
Childrens' silence makes you feel neglected
Friends' silence alienates you
But the silence of the Guru
whom you got as a result of some good deed
makes you realise your own SELF
And elevates you.
Silence is one-its impacts are many.
This is one of the few kavithagal I wrote; inspiration for this is the sloka
'chitram vatatarormUle'

[ragam-talam]

Infact I would go to the extent of saying that for spirituality silence is the foundation, so CM or bhajan just does not fit in

I feel it's the inner silence that's the key to spirituality. One could be in a chaotic bazaar, still be silent inside. Conversely, one could go up a quiet mountain, but still be chaotic inside.

I feel that good music (esp Carnatic music for rasikas), just like a beautiful painting, can help us reach this innner silence. And the more we get exposed to such divine arts, the longer this silence can linger on in our lives, until it becomes a part of us.

[VK RAMAN]

for spirituality silence is the foundation - what is the foundation behind this?

[vgovindan]

vkr,
Dr. Radhakrishnan would call it 'ultimate irrationality'.
dIkshitar would call Her 'mAna mAtR mEyE'.
lalitA sahasra nAmam would call Her 'dhyAna dhyAtR dhyEyE'.
It is like defining symbol 'infinity' (or for that matter zero).

[mankuthimma]

for spirituality silence is the foundation - what is the foundation behind this?

http://www.mediafire.com/?bwbcpvn5azbb57u
What could explain the genius behind this interpreter of Silence ?

[Nick H]

Many silences indeed. I have always, for instance, loved the silence of the night, although one has to be somewhere rural to have it broken, at least, only by natural sounds. Even here now, although there is relative peace for a city corner, there is the whirring of a computer fan...

Along with the silence of the night, there is the darkness. And to those who find fear in the darkness, isn't it the time of peace? of taking rest? Does it not comfort us in the night? What's more, in the day, your vision works over a few miles at most: in the night it travels vast distances to the stars.

Walking down an unlit, rural lane, late one evening, my friend asked me if I was not at all afraid. I replied that I was fairly sure that there were no other people about, and what else could there be to be afraid of?

Just one small disagreement...

The deafening silence of the inept , the coward , the arrogant , the malicious , the inactive ?

Plenty of experience of all those things, and I'd say they are actually very noisy: they certainly do not contribute to inner peace, although the ego may be temporarily satisfied by some of them. perhaps there is a silence inside an inflated balloon --- but it is certainly a fragile and short-lived one!

[VK RAMAN]

http://www.mediafire.com/?bwbcpvn5azbb57u
What could explain the genius behind this interpreter of Silence ? Yes Awe stricken - only ears were open. Struck silence. Thank you.

[vanajan]

In fact I find all formalism of music - either playing or listening - a distraction from spiritual matters.

AFAIK, formalism (in music or anything else) is not a hindrance to spiritual quest if one gets it naturally and seemingly effortlessly aka intuitively. It may even aid in that case, as one quite often gets a momentary glimpse(kevala) of THAT. Any other method of acquiring the formalism, seems to build an attachment to the formalism and that attachment is a big hindrance to be THAT intuition(Sahaja Nirvikalpa).

Vanaja.