Suggestions for quiz

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Jan 2007, 05:14

drshrikaanth wrote:No. No one got all answers right.

Oops! I stand corrected. Ramakriya sent in a few more answers by email after I had indicated here that I would accept addenda for previous submissions. So he has scored 20 on 20. Congrats Ramaprasad.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 16 Jan 2007, 05:16

Can I form a team with ramakriya for the next round??

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Jan 2007, 05:18

jayaram wrote:Can I form a team with ramakriya for the next round??

Me too!! only half my brain got it right.

Congrats Ramkriya!

venkatpv · Post by **venkatpv** » 16 Jan 2007, 05:19

congrats ramakriya

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Jan 2007, 05:33

Thanks DRS for going through all our answers.
How many participants did we have?

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Jan 2007, 05:33

Thanks

I knew reading Prof R Satyanarayana and Prof SRJ would definitely help me someday!

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Jan 2007, 06:04

14 entries in all. Will put up the scores later.

sridevi · Post by **sridevi** » 16 Jan 2007, 07:08

DRS...

I have a question about the khamas.. I think you did give me grace marks .. however I read in Smt.Sachidevi's books that kaakali nishaada was used in javalis and then Sri Maisuru Vasudevachar used it. However my answer of Bangalore nagarathnammal is a guess... since the javali she composed is in khamas..

Thanks

Sridevi

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jan 2007, 07:48

i had a feeling ramakriya will nail this! Congrats!

I think whatever i answered is correct - but i answered only half the questions

arun

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 16 Jan 2007, 08:24

This way our (lack of) knowledge is not publicised!!

Jayram -- Relax
There are 1681-14=1657 members whose lack of knowledge is now, very well publicised . I am at the head of list , as you can see...

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Jan 2007, 09:17

coolkarni wrote:I am at the head of list , as you can see...

Kji: that is my exclusive privilege!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jan 2007, 10:13

Let us not quarrel. We all conjointly share the first place and clearly poor Ramakriya shares the last place in that regard

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 16 Jan 2007, 10:39

Ayyo, I seem to be the lowest scorer - only 2 out of 10...doc, your quizzes need to be more gnanasoonyam-friendly! Congratulations to Ramakriya!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 16 Jan 2007, 11:28

only 2 out of 10

that explains why we find your reviews delightful...
those two projections on your head are antennae, not horns

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 16 Jan 2007, 11:51

Ramakriya shares the last place in that regard

CML
You remind me of a real life incident.
Returning from my first ever test in UKG at Little Flower School, Jamshedpur, We (My elder sister and self ) ran into my Dad , who was watering some plants in the garden.
All through the long walk back home , My sister had been preparing me to face my Dad , since I had stood last in a class of 34.
On being confronted with the very difficult question , I am reported to have said --( Akka got only three ranks and I have come back with 34 !)
My Dad used to always say that , on that Day, he started to believe that I would never be a failure in my life , no matter what happened to me !

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 Jan 2007, 12:39

Coolkarniji,
That was hilarious. It was the same UKG when I had to spell the English alphabets, I ended up writing the tamizh versions. I didn't know they were different languages then. At some point, I could not find the exact matches but I persisted and completed the exam in tamizh. How I wish I could get that paper back!

Vijay - Coax me to participate and I guarantee my score would be 1 or 0. All you need to do is maintain your standards and you won't be the last.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Jan 2007, 15:06

Vijay
You have certainly scored more than 1 or 2. The maximm masrks was 20. Each individual answer got one mark. SO scoring was not "all or none" for each question. Each correct subunit got 1 mark.

Here are the much awaited individual scores. Remember friends. This quiz is about participating and learning. Not winning alone. And those who have scored less, please dont feel disheartened. You have 3 more rounds(as of now) to make it up. Audio rounds may turn the tables.

First few scores in order of entries received- Mohan-16, venkatpv- 11, ksrimech-14, ramakriya-20, rajeshnat-13, vijay- 9, Suji Ram- 9, mnsriram- 3, Jayaram- 11, arunk- 8, Ranjani- 3, Sridevi- 1, Lakshman- 8, ammamaha- 10.

Good luck wit the next round. Will come up tomorrow night. Please feel free to discuss the answers.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 16 Jan 2007, 17:09

I do want to thank DRS for the effort and time he has spent into putting together this quiz. I must say, I for one have learnt quite a bit going thru this exercise.

Perhaps these can grow into a volume of book of CM quiz questions. 'Rasikashri' would be an apt name for it!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Jan 2007, 17:11

Thanks Jayaram

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 16 Jan 2007, 18:02

DRS,
YOu conducted an excellent first round.Personally I browse most of the time at work, where they have blocked by firewall ,access to both audio and video files most of the time. Also It is not appropriate to hear any mp3 in work during unblocked time. But I have access to internet at home which I will be accessing only during weekends(usually long day at my work...). Can you conduct the second round from thursday or friday till saturday/sunday. If you have other constraints on the weekends, you can always conduct as per your plan. No issues there.

On a side note I have scored 13 :/,where is the luck

.?

quizkriya
Even if I had googled , I would have not scored a perfect 20. Congrats on your great start?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Jan 2007, 21:08

rajeshnat wrote:On a side note I have scored 13 :/,where is the luck .?

Rajesh. This fear/ill-luck of number 13 should not affect Indians/at least non-Christians. So fear-not. Anyway trisdekaphobia is all in your mind. So look only forward.

eNNit tuNiga karumam tuNindapin
eNNuvAm enbadizhukku |(vaLLuvar)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Jan 2007, 21:13

vidyAraNya, the brain and inspiration behind the setting up of the Vijayanagara Empure, was also a profound and revered musicologist. Being the pontiff of the SRngEri maTha did not srop him from pondering over music. Many later-day acclaimed authors have invoked his name and work with profound respect and quoted some SlOkas from his sangItasamayasAra which has not survivved intact to our day. gOvinda dIkShita gives full credit for description of 50 popular rAgas abnd their assignment under 15 mELas to vidyAraNya. So, all later mELa concepts have sprung from the seed of vidyAraNya's thought.

venkatpv · Post by **venkatpv** » 16 Jan 2007, 21:34

i remember Prof. SRJ saying that Ramamatya was the father of the mela concept?? (swaramela kalanidhi??)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jan 2007, 21:39

evidence for vidyAraNYa (who predates rAmamatya) comes from a later work as DRS mentions. We dont have his direct words (as we have for rAmamatya), but as per gOvinda dIkshita's work, vidyAraNYa would be the first.

There is also a slight mystery that kallinAta (rAmamatya's ancesor - grand-father?) who was about the same time as vidyaranya did a commentary on sangIta ratnAkara, and mentions several "modern trends" that deviate from the grama system but is completely silent about mELas (which would certainly be a major modern trend).

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Jan 2007, 21:59

arunk wrote:evidence for vidyAraNYa (who predates rAmamatya) comes from a later work as DRS mentions. We dont have his direct words (as we have for rAmamatya), but as per gOvinda dIkshita's work, vidyAraNYa would be the first.

I think some of his SlOkas have been quoted by later authors. Let me re-check this. tuLajA also recalls vidyAraNya. As for kallinAtha, if he was indeed a contemporary of vidyAraNya, it explains why he did not mention the mELa trends. Clearly it was new and also, he may not have relished the idea of giving credit to a contemporary.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jan 2007, 22:05

drshrikaanth wrote:
arunk wrote:evidence for vidyAraNYa (who predates rAmamatya) comes from a later work as DRS mentions. We dont have his direct words (as we have for rAmamatya), but as per gOvinda dIkshita's work, vidyAraNYa would be the first.
I think some of his SlOkas have been quoted by later authors. Let me re-check this. tuLajA also recalls vidyAraNya. As for kallinAtha, if he was indeed a contemporary of vidyAraNya, it explains why he did not mention the mELa trends. Clearly it was new and also, he may not have relished the idea of giving credit to a contemporary.

Perhaps but he was not that positive about the trends anyway - could have fit right along with the theme if he didnt want to give a contempary credit

. But kallinatha's work was on grama system and so he may have wanted to avoid too much digression .

Btw, when was tulaja in comparison with gOvinda dikshita (not that it matters)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Jan 2007, 22:08

I think tuLaja was more recent, even to venkaTamakhi.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jan 2007, 22:19

coolkarni

Now I know how you got the courage to turn failures into success (as you have demonstrated) comes from! With that spirit you can never lose in any enterprise. Engrave Tennyson's
"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."
as your motto on your table!

Folks

This quiz series bring fond memories of Sriram's Sangeetham Quiz which we all miss which was a fountain of information on CM trivia! Of course DRS is into serious stuff which is higly educational. Let us make the discussions interesting by sharing our collective knowledge on related topics. I was fascinated learning about the musical genius of VidyAraNya whom I had regarded primarily a Sanskrit scholar!
Here is a question
DRS states that 'raga' in musical parlance was introduced by Matanga in BrihaddEshI which has been dated around 9th century AD. In Tamil of course the word used was 'paN' whose use goes back thousands of years ( first sa^Nga kaalam?) . To me it appears that the word must have attained currency with Bharta himself (~2nd century AD). Am I right?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jan 2007, 22:39

i vaguely remember reading that the word rAga does occur in bharata's work but not with the same connotation, which means we cannot take it to imply ragas as a musical entity existed then.

The use of paN in musical context does occur in cillappatikAram - but we dont know if at that time it was similar to panns of later (which as i mentioned were like ragas in grama-system, many having same names), or were similar to jatis (as in bharata's time). I need to read up more, but it looks like the tamizh system and the grama system had merged very very early.

Note that there is a good gap between nAtyaSastra and dattilam and brhhaddesi (matanga). I think you do have kudumiyAmalai inscription which I think predates matanga (?) which is direct evidence about grama ragas. So when a term raga was actually in practice is anyone's guess. All we know was it is after bharata/dattila and before kudimiyamalai/brhaddesi.

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Jan 2007, 22:40

drshrikaanth wrote:As for kallinAtha, if he was indeed a contemporary of vidyAraNya, it explains why he did not mention the mELa trends. Clearly it was new and also, he may not have relished the idea of giving credit to a contemporary.

Most likely, Kallinatha could not have been a contemporary of vdyAanya.

Ramamatya was a minister in the court of aLiya rAmarAya ( 153x AD- 1565AD) -

If he was very young at this time, say 30 years, and was a miminister at the end of Ramaraya's reign, he could not be born after 1530 AD. (Lowest limit)

If he was old at the time, say 60+ years, and then the earliest DOB for Ramamatya would be around 1500 AD.

KallinAtha being his grandfather can not be more than 70-80 years older than Ramamatya. So the earliest DOB for Kallinatha is 1420 AD.

Clearly, Vidyaranya was at least 80- 100 years before Kallinatha, since we know that he was instrumental in founding Vijayanagara empire in 1336 AD.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Jan 2007, 22:45

drshrikaanth wrote:I think tuLaja was more recent, even to venkaTamakhi.

tuLaja was indeed about 80-100 years later Venkatamakhi. his sArAmRuta is dated around 1730 AD; Shahaji's rAgalakshaNamu (on which sArAmrta is based) is around 1700 AD, about 50 years after chaturdanDi (~1650 AD)

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Jan 2007, 22:50

arunk wrote:i vaguely remember reading that the word rAga does occur in bharata's work but not with the same connotation, which means we cannot take it to imply ragas as a musical entity existed then.

Yes, whaty you say is true. I think I have seen the shlOka too.. Let me see some references, and post later in the day.

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jan 2007, 22:59

good thinking ramakriya but the question remains (and in fact strengthens). If kallinatha was 80-100 years AFTER vidyaranya, and was sort of in the same stomping grounds, sort of surprising why he doesnt mention anything about melas. My only explanation is he didnt want to give it credit when talking about gandarva music.

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Jan 2007, 23:02

That is quite possible. Even if he did not mention, I think it is still better than venkatamakhi scandalizing rAmAmAtya !

In fact R Satyanarayana has made some points regarding why Vidyaranya has not been mentioned in many musical works. I will revisit it, and try to post a summary later at night.

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Jan 2007, 23:10

SArgadEva's sangIta ratnAkara is place around 1230. vidyAraNya attained mahAsamAdhi in 1387-88. kallinAtha was around 1450. kallinAtha indeed keeps SARngadEva's work as his reference and works on it. But even so, kallinAtha, without mentioning vidyAraNya or his work directly, has paved the way for a clear mELa classification by doing the following. Declaring ShaDja and pancama as prakRti swaras and introducing the idea of the same swarasthAna becoming 2 different adjacent swaras depending on the context(G1 insted of R2 etc). So it is fair to say he was caught at the crossroads of change and hence, without offending ancient traditions by officially acknowleging the trendsetter of change, quietly paves the way for the change to follow a direction.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Jan 2007, 23:13

jayaram wrote:I do want to thank DRS for the effort and time he has spent into putting together this quiz. I must say, I for one have learnt quite a bit going thru this exercise.

Me too.. Actually Rasika forum is a very good place for learning - Much better than the earlier forums where there used to be a war every few days :rolleyes:

Thanks to all rasikas, srkris, and posters like DRS who make this forum so unique.

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jan 2007, 23:19

drshrikaanth wrote:introducing the idea of the same swarasthAna becoming 2 different adjacent swaras depending on the context(G1 insted of R2 etc).

drs - is it possible for you to scan and send me the relevant portion of the reference material on this? (Which book talks about this? Dr. Satyanarayana's)

I knew of other things (he is first to mention that nATTai's rishaba takes 6 sruthis, and that rAmakriya's madhyama is augmented by 2 sruthis thus being the first obvious reference to pratimadyama), but not this one!

Thanks
Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Jan 2007, 23:20

rAmAmAtya further worked on the mELa classification.Prof R.Sathyanarayana says he refers to vidyAraNya indirectly by mentioning the word "sangItasAra". He mentions that vidyAraNya spent nly 8 years in SRngEri and spent a sinificant length of his life in kASi/vAraNAsi and that he probably wrote the sangItasamayasAra there. The last 8 yrs of his life we spent in SRngEri. gOvindadIkShita refers to him with great respect(No quotes from him though. SO there is no known direct quote from vidyAraNya.)

karNATasimhAsana bhAgyaSrIvidyAraNyAbhidha SrIcaraNAgraNIbhyaH |
Arabhya rAgAn pracuraprayOgAn pancASatam cAkalayE ShaDangAn |
rAgAstupancASadihOpadiShTA naTTAdayaH sarvajagatprasiddhAH || he says

He describes 50 popular rAgas aunder 15 mELas but attributes all of it to vidyAraNya saying it is SrIvidyAraNyamatam.

gOvinda's own son does not mention vidyAraNya nor even his father's work!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Jan 2007, 23:21

arunk wrote:
drshrikaanth wrote:introducing the idea of the same swarasthAna becoming 2 different adjacent swaras depending on the context(G1 insted of R2 etc).
drs - is it possible for you to scan and send me the relevant portion of the reference material on this? (Which book talks about this? Dr. Satyanarayana's)

it is in kannaDa. WOuld be of use to you? Ramakriya may have the English version.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Jan 2007, 23:28

drshrikaanth wrote:it is in kannaDa. WOuld be of use to you? Ramakriya may have the English version.

Which book are you talking about?

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Jan 2007, 23:31

"karNATasangItavAhini" published by the Govt of Karnataka (karNATaka pustaka prAdhikAra). 1st edition 190, 2nd Edition 2001.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Jan 2007, 23:40

venkatpv wrote:i remember Prof. SRJ saying that Ramamatya was the father of the mela concept?? (swaramela kalanidhi??)

SRJ does quote "Hly Vidyaranya" often. I also remeber seeing it in the tamizh book giving the rAgalakShaNas as described by tuLaja in his work. This book is probably a publication of the MMA. I do not have it to hand to check.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Jan 2007, 23:49

My answer was Ramamatya and Bharata for question 1, 2 resp. based on what I knew.
Nice to know the correct answers. I'm learning here without books....

This quiz reminded me of my final biochem exam where the Prof set a 30 % marks question for historical aspects of who discovered what, - the whole class flunked.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jan 2007, 00:42

drs,

I guess kannada would do me no good - unless some can translate the section

Also do you have information on the slokas of Sarngadeva (i.e. number), that the commentary of kallinatha include this?

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 Jan 2007, 00:47

arunk wrote:I guess kannada would do me no good - unless some can translate the section

Hmm so you are looking for a second opinion eh?

Also do you have information on the slokas of Sarngadeva (i.e. number), that the commentary of kallinatha include this?

Nope. None of that on first skimming.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jan 2007, 00:52

drshrikaanth wrote:
arunk wrote:I guess kannada would do me no good - unless some can translate the section
Hmm so you are looking for a second opinion eh?

It is for my "collection". So i am looking for text + translation

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jan 2007, 00:55

i meant text +translation of the reference (not necessarily kallinatha's words but if that is part of it that would be better of course)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 Jan 2007, 01:46

harikAmbOdhi is said to have been the basic heptatonic scale of ancient tamizh isai. It is called kurinjippaNN as well as sempAlai I suspect kurinji was the name of the melody/rAga while sempAlai was the scale.

This is one significant objetion to the theory that tamzih isai contributed significantly to karNATaka sangita early on. If it did, why did the harikAmbOdhi scale, which was so fundamental to ancient tamizh isai, remain obscure until tyAgarAja came along and gave life to it?

Anyway, here again we run into a parallel of kharaharapriya-rudrapriya between T and MD schools in terms of melodic similarity. ISamanOhari rAga in MD is nearly indistinuguishable from harikAmbOdhi. Have you heard MD's "ananta bAlakRShNa mAmava" in ISamanOhari? (Vijayasiva sings it). The sangatis are almost identical to dinamaNivamSa.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jan 2007, 02:01

i am not yet sold on contribution of tamizh isai to CM - there is too much "filling in the blank" type of stuff (and of course there is a lot of jingoistic feel - some of it a fall out of "reverse discrimination".

But even if you take grama system, the sadja grama scale wasnt as dominant as one would presume. There were as many if not more ragas in madyama grama which BTW is like a harikAmbhOji starting from ma. One of my wild hunches is as follows (this may already been proposed): The gramas (and palais) were simply a tuning scheme - sort of like E G B D A F on a guitar. Just like the order of (and thus spacing between) open strings in a guitar have no importance in (although wm isnt melodic) in terms of scales/tunes, the spacing of swaras of the grama itself dont imply a dominant scale?

BTW, doesnt ISamanOhari use N3 (S' N3 S')? The SrI gaNanAtam i learnt uses it in more than place.

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 Jan 2007, 02:19

arunk wrote:BTW, doesnt ISamanOhari use N3 (S' N3 S')? The SrI gaNanAtam i learnt uses it in more than place.

Yes it does employ N3 sparingly according to SSP.

pallavi of MD's anantabAlakRShNa

http://www.rogepost.com/n/7867674773

MD's SrIgaNanAtham

http://www.rogepost.com/n/8023308117