Musical Morsels

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 12 Feb 2013, 18:32

As per CML's suggestion in another thread, I have started to give links to my "non-musical" posts in my Blog in the Tamil section
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=20892

Please take a look.

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 12 Feb 2013, 18:44

arasi,
very nice analysis. Thanx.
I think that to create songs with a "good" place for neraval (giving max scope for singer's manOdharma) may need some more careful thought by the composer.
keerthi,
I think you could have written "my" article better than what I did! Thanx.
( I had the idea of collecting local proverbs used by T etc...but did not go further...)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Feb 2013, 19:21

Pasupathy,
You added what I forgot to mention--yes, neraval, particularly.

As for Keerthi, murthi siRidAyinum keerthi peridu (well, not really, but let's substitute 'years' for mUrthi here). I'm always awed by the breadth and depth of his understanding of CM among other things...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Feb 2013, 21:48

Keerthi
Perhaps I am misunderstood. I have nothing against T's music or his scholarship. I am not competent to comment, unlike you, on their relevance and inner beauty. My concern is with the waning influence of CM among the masses in TN. Using T (or the Trinity) as an Icon for CM is a great disservice to CM in the other linguistic areas, especially TN. In fact our colleague Dr, Shrikaanth (DRS) took great efforts to promote brilliantly CM in the Sankethi language which has been ignored or not followed up. I meant by "CM is language neutral" that CM can be adapted to any of the dravidian languages with equal felicity.

An art cannot survive unless it reaches the masses. The way CM is practised today, it is still based on the 19th century model. A concert entirely in Telugu will be considered a pure CM concert; sprinkle a few other languages as thukkadas then it becomes ARI-style CM. Let us call the old model Trinity Music. By all means let everybody learn the sundara (beautiful) Telugu language and enjoy the Trinity music in all its glory. Unfortunately I understand even in the heartlands of Andhra the Trinity Music is not very popular. On the other hand CM in the malayalam language is doing quite well in the villages of Kerala. I guess the same is true in Karnataka as well in the Kannada language. I have heard more CM ragas in a single Malayalam movie than in all the Tamil movies during that period. The CM functions in NA are mostly attended by Brahmins (with a Chennai background) and no nonbrahmins let alone non Hindus.

The grammar of CM is "language neutral". It must be taught in schools. Students will develop an intrinsic Raga and Rhythm sense and it will also improve their math skills. Students should be encouraged to compose and sing CM in their native languages.

That of course is my Pipe Dream:D

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 12 Feb 2013, 22:00

I whole-heartedly endorse.
To broadbase CM is called for, across languages and artificial barrier of caste.

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 13 Feb 2013, 04:34

It is unfortunate that the previous generation chose only the Trinity’s music to popularize CM. They rode to their professional success on the platform of the Trinity’s spiritual contents even though they never bothered to use the compositions for their spiritual enlightenment.

Infact, every musician worth his salt, starting from Mahavaidyanatha Iyer, had composed compositions in Tamil. They were never taken up by musicians just because they will not capture the audience.

“Thaye Yasoda” was popularized by Maharajapuram because it was composed by his guru’s guru.

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 13 Feb 2013, 05:40

If the Trinity meet...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KobNqirflY4

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Feb 2013, 06:52

Thanks Pasupathy.
The boys have done an excellent job. Nice meaningful skit! Kudos to the organizers.
I guess this was at Chennai?

If only the Trinity were able to speak Tamil like that (forget the English intrusions) which I believe was possible
they could have done a great service to Tamil..
There is a factual error. Shyama's mother tongue was Telugu!

Tamil was considered a 'nIcabhASha' (low caste language) by high caste brahmins in those days.
Even Paramacarya had forbidden Tamil spoken in front of him before his Puja. All conversations
had to be in Sanskrit (Deva bhASha). Accidentally if anybody spoke Tamil he will go take a bath and then commence the Puja!
I believe the 'untouchability' did not extend for Telugu..

The contribution to Tamil by brahmins (starting from mythical Agastya) is immense but was totally nullified by a few fanatics
in the 19th century for which they are still paying the price!

“Thaye Yasoda” was popularized by Maharajapuram because it was composed by his guru’s guru.

appears incorrect since it is a composition of OVK who had no shishyas. Again IMHO it was MMI who popularized it along with
many other Tamil compositions.

SK for MS was denied for a long time because of her participation in Tamil Isai.

That will be the day when Music Academy will be vindicated as a true Icon of CM when they award SK to an artiste who sings mainly Tamil or Kannada or Malayalam (or even sankethi) kritis!

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 13 Feb 2013, 16:45

" using T( or the Trinity) as an icon for CM is a great disservice to CM in other linguistic areas"

BOLd and Golden words.

'Tamil was considered as a nicabasha by high caste brahmins in those days

'
Particularly in the first half of last century. But let us remember that EVR's anti brahminism was at its peak.he classified the society as pappans(incl iyers,iyengars etc..) and all the rest are called "tamizhars". the brahmins over reacted socially but in literary tamil that period has given giants like U VE SA
Paramacharya and puja.-I recall the thread ode to the obnoxious.Pujas being public the first few rows were usually occupied by wealthy brahmins and their family.In important occasions those wealthy mirasdars assert their command over their kanakapillais and karyasthars by instinctively using special "vocables" which are imprintable.
May be Paramacharya when doing puja to the LOKA madha has heard any such word which made him to go in for a bath for reconcentration and also to indicate his disapproval.IT should not be taken against tamil because his proficiency in tamil is well established.By adopting sanscrit he avoided such people in his hearing range during pujas .

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 13 Feb 2013, 18:38

http://truthdive.com/2010/01/02/paramac ... uages.html

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 13 Feb 2013, 19:10

Shyama's mother tongue was Telugu!

Shyama Sasti's mother tongue was not Telugu. It was Tamil as his descendants mother tongue is. Adi Shankara on consecration of the Sri Chakra in front of Kamakshi, brought Telugu brahmins to Kanchipuram and gave them the charge of worshipping Kamakshi. The task of worshipping Bangaru kamakshi which was in the adjacent sanctum was given to vaDamA brahmins belonging to Kanchipuram. Their descendant was Shyama Sastri. The latter's direct descendants still live in Thanjavur where Bangaru Kamakshi now is and they speak Tamil. The now living direct descendants are the grandchildren of Subramanya Sastri who was a grandson of Annasamy Sastri who in turn was a grandson of Shyama Sastri.

To say that the Paramacharya abhorred Tamil is preposterous. He loved Tamil as much as he loved Sanskrit and his mother tongue Kannada. He knew the Tirukkural by heart and was well versed in Kamba Ramayana too. Wherever do you get such information? I personally know that he was a great scholar in Tamil as well as in English and French.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Feb 2013, 21:08

Thanks for the clarification on SS. As a reseaarcher you know better.
I never said Paramacarya abhored Tamil. In fact he was quite well-versed in Tamil and well-read too.
My info on what I stated comes from the writings of Agnihotram Thathacharya who was his assitant for
a long time. Again there are strict rituals to be followed while chanting vedas. For example Rudram as part
of the yajur veda cannot be chanted and heard by non brahmins. I am not against conervative views which are
strictly followed by individuals. However enlightenment is part of progress. Even Adi Sankara had to be enlightened
on 'untouchability' by Lord Siva himself!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Feb 2013, 21:33

Thanks PB for the ref!

Hinduism has evolved over the ages. There were many Dark periods. But the basic philosophy is sound, rational and
enlightening. Because of ignorance and unscrupulous practices a vast majority of Hindus were dishinherited making room for
inroads by alien faiths who exploited the innocents. We can discuss them in a separate thread!

My thrust here is on the Taboos and superstitions in CM which is our joint heritage and the need to restore it to its legitimate
glory...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Feb 2013, 23:51

Dear Ravisri
Perhaps you could clarify the following puzzle for me.

SS was a Tanjore vadama Tamil brahmin whose mother tongue was Tamil.
He chose to compose predominnatly in Telugu which is not his mother tongue.
On the other hand T was a Telugu brahmin whose mother tongue was Telugu.
He composed in Telugu, his mother tongue because he was only comfortable in his mother tongue.
That sounds quite inconcongruous for me. How can the mother tongue be comfortable for one and not for the other?
Am I missing something/

MD composing entirely in Sanskrit is perfectly understandable since the Dikshitars are past masters in that languge
irrespective of their mother tongues...

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 14 Feb 2013, 08:40

Have not GNB and MDR composed in Telugu? Even Srinivasa Iyengar, I think. Was Vasudevacharyar's mother tongue Telugu?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 14 Feb 2013, 08:48

This is what Wikipedia says:
Syama Sastri was born in Tiruvarur in Thiruvarur district, into a scholarly and priestly Tamil speaking Telugu Vadama Brahmin family.

In Krithimanimalai of Sri Rangaramanuja Iyengar, it is said that he beloged to Vadadesatthu Vadamas, who migrated from Kambam (Kammam?)

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 14 Feb 2013, 08:51

Wikipedia is not a very reliable source for information as anyone can enter stuff there.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 14 Feb 2013, 10:59

Cannot understand all this hullabaloo over the mother tongues and language of personal choice for composing .
Futile to look at history with such blinkered vision . To fit past history into present leanings .

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 14 Feb 2013, 11:56

cm lover, let us peep into some bit of history to try to understand what you have asked.

After the Chola kingdom fell, the Vijayanagara Empire started expanding its territory into what is now Tamilnadu in the 13/14th century. The smaller chieftains who chose to rule small territories and run them as their own fiefdoms were ultimately run over by the superior armed forces of the Vijayanagara rulers. Krishna Devaraya it was who expanded the kingdom into Tamil territory and undertook many development activities. These included building of temple towers. Many of the huge temple towers we now have in Tamilnadu were built by him. These include Srirangam, Tirvannamalai, Madurai etc.

Krishna Devaraya appointed his trusted lieutenants as Chieftans in charge of three important principalities of Madurai, Thanjavur and Chenji (near Tiruvannamalai). These chieftains known as Nayaks were, Telugu speaking. Govinda Dikshitar (who was Kannada speaking) was sent to Thanjavur to oversee all these three principalities. He acted as a kind of Prime Minister and undertook many activities like building tanks, irrigation structures, bathing ghats on the Cauvery etc. Such was his popularity that he was referred to affectionately as Ayyan. You can still find a lot of Ayyankulams in the Thanjavur, Madurai and Tiruvannamalai areas. He built puShya manTapams at places like Tiruvaiyyaru and Tiruvidaimarudur. Incidentally our Venkatamakhi who is credited with formulating the 72 mELakartA scheme was the son of Govinda Dikshitar. Govnda Dikshitar and Venkatamakhi were ancestors of the Paramacharya of Kanchi on his mother's side.

The Madurai Nayaks overran Thanjavur and started ruling that territory. Slowly artists, builders, artisans, businessmen etc., many of them Telugu speaking, migrated to Tamilnadu, which, thanks to the enlightened rule, saw a lot of development in building infrastructure and also in literature and the arts. The period saw a lot of migration of Telugu and Kannada speaking people. Since the rulers, their ministers and advisors were Telugus and Kannadigas, these two languages started gaining prominence in these principalities. That is how Telugu came to dominate Thanjavur.

In course of time the Nayak rule collapsed and under the guidance of Chatrapati Shivaji the Mahratta kingdom rose sometime in the 17th century. Marathi also became a prominent language. The consequences of all these developments was that Tamil was relegated to the background. During the rule of Tulaja, Sarabhoji and his son Shivaji (not to be confused with Chatrapati Shivaji) music and dance gained prominence and songs were composed, in Telugu mostly, which was one of the main languages of the court. We have varNams and kritis in Marathi too composed by Shahaji, Sarabhoji, Shivaji etc.

Shyama Sastri has also composed in Tamil and Sanskrit too. He might have felt more comfortable in Telugu. Thyagaraja has several beautiful Sanskrit compositions to his credit including jagadAnandakArakA, mAmava Satatam, varasikhi vAhana, dEva rAma rAma mahAdEva rAghavA etc. As for Dikshitar he has composed two beautiful songs in maNipravALam incorporating Sanskrit, Tamil and Telugu and also where necessary he has 'Tamilized' certain words, e.g., 'ambujA ramaNa sOdari Adari', meaning support/protect me in the song ambA nIlAyatAkShi.

I personally feel that great composers like the Trinity were inspired to compose and what inspired them at that moment of composing was utilised by them, whether it was the choice of language or the subject matter or the emotions or the rAga. In songs like elA nI dayarAdu, only the pallavi is Telugu, the whole of the charaNams are in pure Sanskrit. In the varALi pancharatnam take for example the charaNam beginning with sukhAspada vimukhAmbudhara........ It is wholly in Sanskrit.

Take the Paramacharya. Because of his education at an American Mission school, he was used to speaking in English with his friends. His Tamil also had liberal doses of English as can be seen from his speeches reproduced in 'deivathin kural'. That is how many English medium educated people speak even at home, sprinkling English while speaking Tamil. So, it all depends on how or what we are comfortable with. More so with composers of the calibre of the Trinity who were charged by Destiny with the task of resuscitating Carnatic music.

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 14 Feb 2013, 12:06

MD composing entirely in Sanskrit is perfectly understandable since the Dikshitars are past masters in that languge
irrespective of their mother tongues...

Dikshitars are mainly nitya agnihOtrIs. Let us remember that many people in those days were very fluent in Sanskrit and if they were poets, composed in Sanskrit too. Thyagaraja's or Shyama Sastri's Sanskrit is in no way inferior to that of Dikshitar. jagadAnandakArakA and pAhi srI girirAjasutE are enough to prove this. Incidentally, Thyagaraja studied Sanskrit at the Raja's Sanskrit college in Tiruvaiyyaru which is still there.

The Natyacharyas of those days were scholars in Sanskrit, e.g., Pandanallur Meenakshisundaram Pillai who I believe has composed shabdams in Sanskrit. The paNDAra sannidhIs, the heads of Saiva mutts like the Tiruvavaduthurai mutt were also Sanskrit scholars, e.g., Subramanya Desikar (19th century). This last named could converse and also debate in fluent Sanskrit on the kAvyAs etc. Many of his predecessors too.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Feb 2013, 23:06

Thanks RaviSri for that excellent historical review.
But history is only a guide to progress.

If Shakespeare were born and grew up in France where he wrote all his plays. He would still be famous among the English speaking community and also be of International fame. For that the official language of Dramas would not be changed to English. Then there will no more be recognition for Moliere or Goethe etc. Nor would the Europeans celebrating Shakespearean Festivals all over Europe. Drama is a medium for the masses though an Art in itself and must be appreciated by the masses. Nor will they designate Shakespeare as the Icon for Dramaturgy. Even in India we do not designate Drama symbolized by Kalidasa, the greatest in drama of all times. Of course there are sporadic Kalidasa festivals.

Outside of the aging Mylaporeans (mamas and mamis) and their few descendents there is very little CM appreciation in the general population of TN. The talented youngsters who are getting inducted into CM are pushed into the same outdated model. There are potential vaggeyakaras with talents equalling or exceeding the Trinity who are not encouraged or appreciated. The casteist bias in CM has to end.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 15 Feb 2013, 13:19

Nor would the Europeans celebrating Shakespearean Festivals all over Europe. .... Nor will they designate Shakespeare as the Icon for Dramaturgy.

very true. In addition to casteist bias there is also a linguistic bias in CM

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Feb 2013, 00:21

Let us have Trinity Music (TM). And let T be the patron saint. Popularize it to your hearts content.
But please liberate CM from those shackles!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Feb 2013, 07:58

I have recently started reading the Music Academy Journals which describe the proceedings of the Conferences and Concerts. Here is an excerpt.

Year: 1929
Fourth Day - Topic: Reform of Music Performances and Other Subjects
President of the conference for that day: M.S. Ramaswamy Iyer
Musicians and Scholars Present:
T.S. Sabesa Iyer, T.V. Subba Rao, P. Sambamurthy,Doraiswamy Iyengar
Tiger Varadachariyar, Ariyakudi Ramanaju Iyengar, Brahmasri.Muthia Bagavathar
Palladam Sanjeeva Rao, Musiri Subramanya Iyer,Mahamahopadyaya Swaminatha Iyer
Kotiswara Iyer, Hubli Krishnacharya,Cocanada V. Narasimhacharlu
And a whole host of other personalities of that time

Here is what was passed as a resolution on the topic of music performance guidelines.

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 17 Feb 2013, 18:52

>>I have recently started reading the Music Academy Journals which describe the proceedings of the Conferences and Concerts. Here is an excerpt.

Very interesting to read. Thanks for sharing.
( The list of those present is itself is interesting....)

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 17 Feb 2013, 19:10

I understand that there was no place for upa pakkavadyam like kanjira or ghatam in the Academy concerts for a very long time.Is it true and if so since when they were allowed in the concert? can somebody throw some light on this ?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Feb 2013, 20:23

Very interesting and enlightening VK
Which is the link?
We should take turns and bring more of these historical articles to light!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Feb 2013, 21:19

http://issuu.com/themusicacademy

I think it is a good idea to start a thread in the Music Books sub forum for the Academy Journal. Let me do that and put the link here.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Feb 2013, 21:39

Here is the link to the thread I just created for discussing the Music Academy Journals.

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20914

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Feb 2013, 21:42

Thx VK!
Let us hope others will participate in this chase of CM history!

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 19 Feb 2013, 18:21

In 1943, MS submitted a list of songs she was going to sing at the Music Academy's conference that year. She had included 3 songs in Tamil to which the Academy objected. MS/Sadasivan did not relent and MS was dropped from that years musicians and subsequently boycotted for the next three years too. By 1947 the Tamil Isai movement was gaining in strength and MS was drawing huge crowds. The Academy had to have her on their side. Peace was brokered by Semmangudi who had by then become guru to MS. He was to preside over the 1947 conference. MS was asked to perform and she brought in Alangudi Ramachandran to play the ghatam for her. The Academy had to perforce agree and that was the year when the Academy shed its prejudice towards the upa pakkavadyams.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Feb 2013, 22:01

You are right. There have been instances when vidwans walked out of her concerts when she started singing Tamil. Kudos to Sadasivam
for standing on principle. Also Rajaji and Kalki supported her steadfastly. Her "maalai pozhuthinilE.." was featured in Kalki Deepavali malar with Radha doing the abhinayam which were enormously popular. Pasupathy can set the years right.

Even the delay in MS getting the SK was mainly due to her Tamil commitments. But her Popularity and Charity work could not be ignored. I am sure SSI had a big role in getting her SK. Was it true that they wanted to honour DKP before MS? Brahmin bias and gener bias too!

MKR can add some details if he is reading this...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Feb 2013, 22:03

RaviSri: Stepping outside of individual personalities and their whims, given all the formal nature of the conference proceedings, passing resolutions and publishing them etc., it is interesting that the Academy had issues with the Tamil songs. The 1929 resolutions 1 and 6 clearly encourage songs in 'vernacular' and songs by composers other than the Trinity.
I know it is naive to think that everything will go by resolutions, but I am curious if the reason for their rejection of MS that year is due to the inclusion of Tamil songs or that three was considered too many.

Are any such details available at least unofficially through the grapevine?

And what were those three songs? ThukkaDas or main/songs before main ones?

I am also curious when the prevalence of tamil lyrics in RTP started? Even during that time?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Feb 2013, 00:04

VK,
There is more to it, I'm sure--resolutions look very good on paper. I think they come to be, because a member or more were genuinely interested in making the changes.

The MA is a culture in itself. Used to be more so before. Written and unwritten rules (and resolutions) are part of it.

Just a few years ago, I heard several members of the MA criticizing a performer for not including a Tyagaraja kruti in the concert. I'm happy when a song or two of his are sung, with an MD and SS kruti perhaps.
I'm not unhappy when their songs are omitted, if the concert is rich with songs of other eminent composers in Telugu, Sanskrit, Tamizh and Kannada.

An all T concert is just as pleasing. So is a 'songs in a single language' concert.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Feb 2013, 00:25

Be glad times have changed. Those were the times when people will be ready to immolate themselves (theekkuLi) if such a sacrilege were to be commited in a CM concert!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Feb 2013, 01:48

VK is not entirely correct. here is the extract from 1929

No mention of anyTamil composers. The subsequent action of MA in the following years
were also to exclude Tamil from CM!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Feb 2013, 02:57

CML, There is resolution 6 which encourages compositions in vernacular ( I hate that word at a gut level

)

I encourage you all to read the 1929 Music Academy Journal. Resolutions 4 and 5 got some debate and they
modified it slightly based on the discussions. So the wordings are all very precise. Whether they were followed
or taken seriously is a different matter. But it looks like the MA enforced certain things that it could including the requirement to publish the song list and the concert duration since in their opinion at that time, without those two, our music looked very unprofessional!!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Feb 2013, 03:54

You are right! They were respectful of the nIca bhAshai

Though other than Purandara they knew nothing of Swati or OVK or any...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Feb 2013, 05:09

CML, I think you are looking at this from a pre-judged point of view and trying to gather evidence that they were all like that then. You have good reasons to look at it with such a jaundiced eye since no one can deny that such perceptions existed then. But going strictly by the data and from that 1929 journal ( and at the risk of being called 'naive' ), I do not have any reason to suspect their sincerity about what they state in resolution 6. There was not any pressure to add that, but they still did that.

The general vibe I get by reading the proceedings is that people assembled there do not seem to be all of the same mind, there is considerable debate even on small things and their objective is to bring some order, regularity and professionalism to concert performance. No one raised any objection to this resolution and it seems it was of their unanimous opinion that vernacular compositions should be encouraged. That is why I am curious about what happened between 1929 and the MSS episode and whether it was the number of tamil compositions that posed a problem for them or it was the thukkada vs main etc.

As a case in point about their acceptance of Tamil ( to a limited extent alright ), there is a discussion documented in that 1929 journal about Ariyakudi's Thirrupugazh 'Tullumadha' performance the previous day. The context was different ( why it should be trisra matya and not Adi ) but that is a clear evidence that singing in Tamil at MA was not entirely frowned upon and Ariyakudi did not have to change his concert pattern of singing a thiruppugazh ( or thiruppavai ) in his concerts when he sang at the MA.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Feb 2013, 07:22

VK
I am not pre judging but only post judging based on events 1930+
I have not read the 1929 fully yet. Will do so later. To your defence there was HMB
who was a part of MA and who composed eminently in Kannada as well as Tamil.
Except for a few his compositions have not found usual concert platforms yet.
Incidentally HMB was instrumental in unearthing Swati that was followed up later by SSI.
Those also have not caught up yet. I am not worried about 1929. But the concert patterns
have not changed linguistically yet! Let alone MA itself

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Feb 2013, 12:03

Also, the tiruppAvais came much later in Ari's repertoire, I think. They were tuned in the forties, perhaps?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Feb 2013, 12:24

CML, OK, that is fine then. So what happened between 1929 when they do not seem to be Anti-Tamil to the state you describe in the subsequent years which culminated in that shameful episode that RaviSri describes of MSS not being allowed to sing just on that basis. What changed?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Feb 2013, 22:41

I was never an insider. I know it is the prejudice against Tamil that prompted the
Tamil Isai movement. But it had a miserable start since it was CM light weight.
Until MSS/DKP/DKJ joined, it was not serious. MMD/KBS tried their best.
If only PS had been a good performer he could have done it! In fact the Telugu
lobby (chettiars) were dead against the development. Add to that the 'brahmin
prejudice' who only would support Sanskrit! Everything changed after the 60's
(after the formation of linguistic states)
with the Dravidian movement but their prejudice against brahmins extended to CM.
It is time now to liberate CM from the old fashioned ideas, but that is a task for the
younger generations who still are not interested

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 20 Feb 2013, 23:25

MMI made TAMIL songs popular WELL BEFORE anyone else including the Tami Isai Movement srarted etc. Very few persons appear to be AWARE of this FACT. VKV

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 20 Feb 2013, 23:49

Friends,
After my recent opportunities to listen to Papanasam Sivan I am veering to the view he is the greatest Carnatic composer. He may not match the technical mastery of the trinity, but his songs seem to have the right mix of bhava, raga and scope for improvisation, apart from wonderful use of alliteration etc. and of course he immensely benefited from knowing trinity compositions so well.

(Alas! Actually I don't know Tamil well!

)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Feb 2013, 00:04

VKV
My apologies! I forgot MMI

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 21 Feb 2013, 12:14

Those were early years of the Tamil Isai movement. Three Tamil songs were considered too much. And these were to be sung as main pieces by MS. One main piece was Shuddananda Bharati's 'jankAra dhvani seyguvOm in Purvikalyani. This song was objected to by the committee of the Academy. Sadasivan refused to budge and the Academy dropped MS's name.

There was an all Tamil concert under the auspices of the Tamil Isai Sangam in 1946 by MS held at the Gokhale Hall. Tickets were sold out. It was the highest collection until then for any CM concert. The amount was Rs.3800/. Remember it was almost 70 years ago. Chairs had to be put outside Armenian Street. Loudspeakers put up in adjacent streets like Errabalu Chetty, Thambu Chetty etc.The estimate says there were 10, 000 people who had come to listen to MS. Naturally there was much grinding of teeth at the Academy and they had to have her on their side as they were planning for an auditorium also. So, they had to accept the conditions of Sadasivam, upapakkavadyam, Tamil songs etc. This happened in 1947.

Ariyakkudi refused to accept this all Tamil condition of the Tamil Isai Sangam. He had to begin with a Telugu varnam of his guru and also sing a Thyagaraja song. This was not acceptable to the Sangam. Ariyakkudi also felt that there were not many classical pieces (this was in the 1940s) that were worthy to be sung as main pieces. Only as tukkadas. Ultimately he relented after the Sangam accepted his condition of a Telugu varnam and a Thyagaraja kriti. I think he started singing at the Sangam in the 1950s. By that time Papanasam Sivan had composed many classical pieces and more important Ariyakkudi had composed music for Arunachala Kavi's Rama Natakam.

I don't know how many people know this. Once Ariyakkudi, in the 1950s, sang tAmamdamEn of Sivan in a concert, the first time he was singing a Sivan piece. This, Ariyakkudi learnt from S.Rajam as a quid pro quo for teaching Rajam some other song in Todi. Sivan sued Ariyakkudi, saying that he had to be paid royalty if anyone wanted to sing his songs. Ariyakkudi was amused. He said that if he sang a song, that song would become popular and, 'what more does Sivan want?' Even others, on hearing this, stopped singing Sivan songs. Ultimately some wise person advised Sivan that he ought not make such preposterous claims. Sivan withdrew his suit. Both the maestros met at a mutual friend's place, made peace and in the next concert Ariyakkudi sang the song with Sivan being present in the first row.

The fight over Tamil Isai is a topic by itself and very interesting. For years it was fought in the columns of 'The Hindu', the Ananda Vikatan and Kalki. It was mostly the Sangam vs the Academy and Ananda Vikatan vs Kalki as S.S.Vasan, movie moghul and editor/publisher of Vikatan was a prominent member of the Academy and Kalki, a proponent of Tamil Isai had started his magazine in his own nom de plume with financial support of MS/Sadasivan.

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 21 Feb 2013, 18:21

>>

I don't know how many people know this. Once Ariyakkudi, in the 1950s, sang tAmamdamEn of Sivan in a concert, the first time he was singing a Sivan piece. This, Ariyakkudi learnt from S.Rajam as a quid pro quo for teaching Rajam some other song in Todi. Sivan sued Ariyakkudi, saying that he had to be paid royalty if anyone wanted to sing his songs. Ariyakkudi was amused. He said that if he sang a song, that song would become popular and, 'what more does Sivan want?' Even others, on hearing this, stopped singing Sivan songs. Ultimately some wise person advised Sivan that he ought not make such preposterous claims. Sivan withdrew his suit. Both the maestros met at a mutual friend's place, made peace and in the next concert Ariyakkudi sang the song with >>Sivan being >>present in the first row.

Thanks, Ravi Sri, for all your posts. I am enjoying all, though unable to respond often....thanks.

The way I've heard/or read : it was 'karthikEya gAngEya" of PS that Ariyakkudi used to sing.... then since PS wanted "royalty",
he learnt another Tamil thOdi.... namely, Koteeswara Iyer's "kali theera". After patch-up, Ariyakkudi began to sing both. Since then all of Ariyakkudi's students have the tradition of singing either song in their concerts.

Another thing; In those days, all the musicians had a "hands-off" policy of each other's favorite piece . e.g.
if they want to sing a PS song in thOdi, it was always "thAmadhamEn' by GNB, 'kArthikEya " by Ariyakkudi, "thaNigai vaLar" by DKP..... they will never sing anything else.... I wish such a policy exists now.... so that we can hear more compositions in same raga by a composer...

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 21 Feb 2013, 19:40

Thanks Sri Pashupathy and yes, it was kArtikEya gAngEya not tAmadamEn. Sorry for the mistake.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Feb 2013, 20:22

RaviSri
Your narrations are rivetting! Pl tell us more about the 'wars' between MA and Tamil Isai Sangam.
Most ofus know about ARI tuning Thiruppavai at the behest of Parmacharya. The DK always cites
ARI for asking the T aradana to be purified after MMD sang a Tamil piece. Mu Ka wrote an
editorial on "TheeTTaayuDutthu.." in 1948? Is this a true incident? What really happened?
IMHO DKJ is the one who popularized PS compositions adding his musical merit. No doubt PS
patterned many of his songs on T style and if only T were alive he could have sued PS for
musical plagiarism

He thus deserved to be called Tamil Thyagaraja...
I have many questions but will hold them and let you narrate in
your own style.

Thanks Pasupathy for chiming in....