Kanjira, the Monitor Lizard, CM and Animal Rights

meena · Post by **meena** » 17 Feb 2007, 08:35

Deleted

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Feb 2007, 09:27

Here is the link to the Outlook article. "Google" meena got it before I did. This site has some pictures of the mrudangam makers and UKS too. If you are not able to access this article, you may have to register as a user at the outlookindia.com site and then search for this article by the author's name Anand and putting the date as Sept 2003.

PS: There is obviously a problem with the URL as given below. Go to outlookindia.com and then search for the article

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fn ... 0908&sid=1

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 17 Feb 2007, 14:13

Mahakavi/Meena, thanks for posting the links.

The slaughter of animals for hide is morally repugnant. However, I am equally disturbed by the toll the caste system has taken on the members of society that have to handle animal skin (for all purposes). An interesting discussion on this is presented by Rohinton Mistry in his novel "A fine Balance" where he talks about the plight of Dalits from the Chamar caste who deal with animal hide.

I think Erode Nagaraj-sir & J. Balaji-sir mentioned in an earlier posting about how many mridangam vidwans such as Karaikudi Mani always ask about the causes of death of the animal involved, before employing their skins for the making of instruments. I wonder if the cause of death of these animals actually affects the real "nadham" of a percussion instrument. I would certainly not want to have bad karma hanging around the music.

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 17 Feb 2007, 14:34

It is unfortunate, but a necessary part of the music. Ironic when you realize that Nandi, who plays mrudangam for Lord Shiva, plays a drum made out of buffalo and calf hides!
I hear that the animal has to be killed in order for the skin to retain its "jeevam", which will be reflected in the superior nadham of the instrument. Taking skin from animals that died of natural causes or otherwise results in an inferior nadham, people will be able to tell that the leather was taken from an "already-dead" animal.
Also, since we have not found a decent substitute for all the skins that can still produce good nadham, we have no other option for the time being. But, the 3/8" synthetic nylon vaaru that is commercially available can replace the leather straps, and in most instances, is actually superior to leather for its temperature and stress tolerances! So there is slightly less animal harm done that way.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Feb 2007, 20:43

sankirnam wrote:I hear that the animal has to be killed in order for the skin to retain its "jeevam",

A "jeevan" has to be sacrificed in order to retain the "jeevam" of music. Creative destruction or destructive creation? It appears that certain acts are permissible in the divine design (or is it evolutionary design?). A mother scorpion has to die during the process of the delivery of the young ones, I understand!

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 17 Feb 2007, 21:13

i also remember that valayapatti subramanian was trying a new type of thavil which did not have the traditinal 'var' for tightening the drums on both sides but had nuts and bolts. but i'm not sure whether there was any replacement of the animal skins with any fibre kind of thing. it becomes all the more difficult in thavil because normally they keep on tightening the vars periodically to ensure that the nadham is in tact.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 17 Feb 2007, 23:12

It is unfortunate, but a necessary part of the music.

Are we saying that the music is so essential, that cows (that too healthy and 'shiny-skinned' ones at that) and other animals have to be sacrificed for it?
Do these mridangam makers make a good living at least? Forget about their social status, that will never improve any time.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Feb 2007, 23:29

I hear that the animal has to be killed in order for the skin to retain its "jeevam", which will be reflected in the superior nadham of the instrument.

This disturbed me too since it has the implication that animals are being killed for the specific purpose of making the instruments.

But then Erode Nagaraj wrote before : "the thing is, we dont kill aniamals for making instruments. the repairers buy it from where they are killed for food....."

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 18 Feb 2007, 04:53

While on this topic, I understand violin strings used to be made out of sheep guts. Are they still, or do we have alternative (nylon etc.) materials used in CM violins of today? Also, horse hair is also used for the bow, right?

This topic has opened up a pandora's box of sorts...the kriti 'sogasuga' will sound more like 'sOka...' for me from now on.

kaapi · Post by **kaapi** » 18 Feb 2007, 14:10

It used to be said that violin strings are made of cat's guts ( or sheep guts??). However now they are all made of metal are are far superior to the older version both in terms of durability and quality of sound. I think as the technology progressed they have been able to draw thin strings of precise thickness.

ugk · Post by **ugk** » 24 Oct 2010, 08:09

Goodness sake.
This website is terribly designed. When i want to post a comment i have to login. And it redirects me to the index page where i have to find the topic all over again. I go to the search page and that is also virtually useless.
Anyway, i wanted to say that developing non-animal materials is indeed the way forward. Slow is the progress but it is happening.
I use a SUPERB fibreglass mridangam. I prefer it to most wood mridangams i have used. It does give a slightly more metallic sound which some may not like but it is fine for me.
As for the karma aspect of the skins, i say do a prayer to the animals spirit as an apology if it died in the wrong way. May sound stupid to some, but it is worthwhile to me.
I cant speak on Ganjira, but i know it is illegal in some countries because of the monitor lizard skin.
My guru told me that ancient mridangams made of clay sounded very different to wood so that people should not assume that only wood is the right choice.
I am straying a bit on and off topic, but i think it all fits.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 24 Oct 2010, 08:36

ugk wrote:Goodness sake.
This website is terribly designed. When i want to post a comment i have to login. And it redirects me to the index page where i have to find the topic all over again. I go to the search page and that is also virtually useless.

All bulletin boards in general take after login to the main index page.I suggest you first login which comes right at the top banner and then look into the posts ,that way you can reply instantaneously . Can you suggest that website of a bulletin board that is correctly designed to your spec which is not terrible.

This site encourages all those who want to write to first login and then look at the post if you are interested in avoiding the inconveniance of avoiding redirection to the index page after login.

Search could be better , but still far better than what it was before?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 24 Oct 2010, 10:14

rshankar wrote: This is what Sudha and I tell our daughter's teacher every year: we try not to eat anything that had a face or a mother! So far, no one has come up with exceptions to this rule.

I like the "cuz its better for health... especially the chicken's" response

BTW, How were you able to embed a quote within another? I thought this was not possible with the current software?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Oct 2010, 15:16

Website design, especially forums, for sites like this, is a case of what comes out of the box, and usually what comes out of free-software box too. For those sites that earn an actual living for their hosts/proprietors, things are different: we are dependent on the time and generosity of one man. Let us be happy!

Interesting that this thread has been resurrected after three years. Only a week or so ago, I was watching one of the younger Kanjira players playing the "usual" traditional instrument, and reflecting that the ban on the use of the lizard skin had had about as much impact as Indian road safety rules do. Perhaps the only difference is that it may be harder for the "general public" to buy the monitor-skin kanjira over a shop counter. I know that was the case, but maybe they too have now forgotten about the law.

Regrettably, technology has not caught up. I was asking a USA-based player, a few months ago, about his experiences: he said that he had tried the synthetic-skin kanjiras, but they were no match in either feel or sound.

As for eating things with parents, well, plants have parents too! Also I cannot forget this saying: Just because you cannot hear it scream does not mean it does not feel pain. But... We have to eat...

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 25 Oct 2010, 03:49

I have always wondered about the "mridang" used in ISKCON bhajans. The sound of that instrument is a bit different from the mridangam but knowing that ISKCON folks generally tend to be very sensitive to these things (especially if the skin has to come from a calf) I wonder if they use a synthetic material instead of animal skin.

Anyone know?

-Then Paanan

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 25 Oct 2010, 09:51

Suji Ram wrote:
I was going to type something similar. I was in the same dept where people were working on silkworms. But there was no "spin off"

Tassar silk is made from the fibers after the silkworm mutates and leaves the cocoon. It is also called "ahimsa silk" since the silkworm is not killed in the process of making yarn from the cocoon.

So, look no further than the nearest store selling Tassar silk.

Sorry, Conjeevaram saris are NOT made from Tassar silk.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 27 Oct 2010, 03:13

Also I cannot forget this saying: Just because you cannot hear it scream does not mean it does not feel pain.

Now you can forget it knowing that plants do not have a central nervous system and therefore cannot feel pain. The existence of feelings are dependent on the existence of a CNS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system

Animals on the other hand, feel the torture when they are slaughtered. Using instruments containing animal parts is no less grotesque than eating food obtained from animal carcasses, except that eating is repetitive.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Oct 2010, 04:34

Bose said that plants feel pain here..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagadish_Chandra_Bose

"From the analysis of the variation of the cell membrane potential of plants under different circumstances, he deduced the claim that plants can "feel pain, understand affection etc.".

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Oct 2010, 04:41

A tangential point.. Yesterday I read a story that there are taste receptors in the lung.. Yes, in the lung!! And unlike the taste receptors in the tongue, they do not report them to the brain using the CNS. But they react to taste and only to bitter taste. Another surprise, they do not shrink the path ways when they sense a bitter taste but they expand the pathways. Now there is frantic research effort to use this to help out asthma sufferers. ( I do not know how the lung receptors actually get in contact with the bitter stuff, that was not explained. may be just the bitter vegetables' airborne molecules are good enough )

First thought that came to me is, have anyone tried eating bitter vegetables ( pAhakkAi for example ) as a treatment for asthma?
May be someone who has asthmatic troubles should give it a try.

smala · Post by **smala** » 27 Oct 2010, 06:29

vasanthakokilam wrote:A tangential point.. Yesterday I read a story that there are taste receptors in the lung.. Yes, in the lung!! And unlike the taste receptors in the tongue, they do not report them to the brain using the CNS. But they react to taste and only to bitter taste. Another surprise, they do not shrink the path ways when they sense a bitter taste but they expand the pathways. Now there is frantic research effort to use this to help out asthma sufferers. ( I do not know how the lung receptors actually get in contact with the bitter stuff, that was not explained. may be just the bitter vegetables' airborne molecules are good enough )

First thought that came to me is, have anyone tried eating bitter vegetables ( pAhakkAi for example ) as a treatment for asthma?
May be someone who has asthmatic troubles should give it a try.

An Ayurvedic physician recommended taking pellets of ground fresh raw tender (kozhundu) neem leaves (or, in lieu, the powdered form) in the morning every day for three - six months - said this would cure asthma completely (chronic cases, six months). I asked him are you sure. He said try it, if you or someone has asthma and left his address to be contacted, if needed.

This came like a bolt out of the blue as I was surfing on yahoo answers one day - I felt a renewed sense of acute pain and loss on wondering why this simple effective native medicine was not widely known. The loss of two brilliant uncles who succumbed to asthma, one with additional TB, is still too much to think of.

Now neem is far more than your bitter medicine - its properties and benefits are so startling and wide that the U.S. has not only begun growing these trees in Florida and manufacturing capsules, it even had a battle on patents on its hands. I think Vandana Shiva won over the patents but the U.S. is going full steam ahead in using its discovery.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 27 Oct 2010, 08:29

Udumbu thOl for kanjira is commonly seen. I have seen other skins also used for kanjira. Is there a plastic that can replace the animal skin as some of the western and arabic places similar instruments have a clear thOl. Are they animal skin too?

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 27 Oct 2010, 08:58

Been googling on silk and what I find is Tussar is not necessarily Ahimsa silk but it can be. Eri silk is more likely to be Ahimsa silk.
http://www.copperwiki.org/index.php?title=Ahimsa_Silk

smala · Post by **smala** » 27 Oct 2010, 12:10

VK - please move the posts on silk eg. # 72 and an earlier one from Harimau etc. to the Silk thread in the Lounge. A very interesting topic needs its own thread.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Oct 2010, 12:23

Suji Ram wrote:Bose said that plants feel pain here..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagadish_Chandra_Bose

Thank you for answering the scientific point in scientific terms.

To that I would add that science is not meant to limit our understanding. Is a "central nervous system" necessary to feelpain? How do we understand pain? Can there be life on Mars? how do we understand life?

As I understand Tussar silk, it is what is called "paper" silk, Isn't this to do with the finish, rather than the origin?

I have to say that I love silk. I am almost as happy in a sari/fabric shop as I am in a concert. Then I have to admit that, when I am enjoying it, the death that is involved in its production does not cross my mind. This is possibly one of the biggest acts of denial in my life. Yesterday, I would not allow my wife to have insecticide sprayed on the garden, because there are some caterpillars that will make splendid moths, yet I do not think of how many moths died to make a sari.

smala · Post by **smala** » 27 Oct 2010, 13:05

...I have to say that I love silk. I am almost as happy in a sari/fabric shop....

My love as well. I could spend hours without food or drink in one. Sad to say I still love all the varieties of pattu but in a measure of remorse will say a small prayer for those lost souls each time I wear one. Those were the days of cotton-sarees only, khadi kurta, no yellow metal either for decades...those were the days..ah, well,we thought they'd never end...sigh!..resurgence in the final lap? Not really. With the yellow metal prices shooting through the roof, you'd literally be caught dead wearing that stuff these days in India, especially in transit. Train heists and getting murdered is everyday consumption.

On the bugs/pests front, it hard to practice ahimsa.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 27 Oct 2010, 13:12

Nick H wrote: Yesterday, I would not allow my wife to have insecticide sprayed on the garden, because there are some caterpillars that will make splendid moths

That was a nice gesture on your part to save the moths

With regard to your other contention that plants feel pain , as far as I know no reputable study has ever shown that plants can "feel pain" the ways humans and animals do. They lack the nervous system and brain necessary for this to happen. A plant can respond to stimuli, for example by turning towards the light or closing over a fly, but that is not the same thing. It is also hard to see what purpose pain could serve for the plant as they can never run away from the source of pain.

Secondly this logic still does not justify the inhumane way animals and birds are treated. Some people have justified the same because â€œthese animals are anyway going to die.â€ The most cruel part is animals and birds being crippled and dead during transportation for slaughter which is considered by the people involved as a normal business process.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Oct 2010, 14:12

It was easy when I was in UK. About many small creatures, I would say, "why kill it? what harm has it done to you?" Genuinely, I tried not to kill. Now I am a mass murderer, with the lives of many thousands, particularly ants and mosquitoes, on my hands. I even have weapons of mass destruction!

cienu wrote:That was a nice gesture on your part to save the moths

Since early childhood, I have liked those moths!

With regard to your other contention that plants feel pain , as far as I know no reputable study has ever shown that plants can "feel pain" the ways humans and animals do.

I think we should not be closed to the possibility, nor should we limit ourselves to what we define as the human way of feeling pain. As, I said, we have to eat. If we do not, then we will certainly be suffering pain. There are many reasons for vegetarianism, and, in the end it is a personal choice --- but vegetarians sometimes claim that their diet does not kill anything or cause pain. Of course it kills, unless we restrict ourselves to fruits and nuts, as of course some do, and I would not like to say categorically that it does not cause pain, what ever the current state of scientific knowledge on the matter.

Secondly this logic still does not justify the inhumane way animals and birds are treated. Some people have justified the same because â€œthese animals are anyway going to die.â€ The most cruel part is animals and birds being crippled and dead during transportation for slaughter which is considered by the people involved as a normal business process.

Agreed. Even as a non-veg eater, I cannot disagree with any of that.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 28 Oct 2010, 03:17

Plants can feel pain and understand affection?

No comments if you thought that is science.

Of course, it is possible to twist the meaning of life and pain to somehow bring rocks and sand into the class of things that have life and feel pain (not just the way we understand it though). Therefore it becomes ethical for humans to eat other humans, for when we "slaughter" and eat apples, and trample on rocks and sand causing them untold pain, why not eat human livers and legs? I thought that kind of barbarism was long gone in the civilized world. Meat eaters do hold on to this relic habit though, inherited from our cannibalistic ancestors, and somehow it all becomes okay because even plants are claimed to feel pain and understand affection, because Mr. Bose said it, so it must be scientific!

So one can "somehow" claim that plants can feel pain without a CNS, since that conclusion has already been made, and all that remains is to fit the facts in accordance with the theory. Life can exist in all things, just not the way we commonly define it. Good logic.

smala · Post by **smala** » 28 Oct 2010, 03:29

skris - please check post 73.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Oct 2010, 03:29

I do not say that it is science: not as science is known today.

I do not have any theories, or facts, nor am I decrying vegetarianism, although I think that some of the reasons that evangelical vegetarians preach are dubious. Just my opinion.

By the way... I eat vegetables too!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 28 Oct 2010, 03:55

Nick H wrote:By the way... I eat vegetables too!

I thought you were a pure non-vegetarian

I think plants communicate. They tell us when to pluck those vegetables and fruits.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Oct 2010, 04:22

I won't argue with the "pure"!

Oh, wait...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Oct 2010, 08:21

Suji,
LOL!
"They tell us when to pluck the fruits and vegetables!", indeed! Oh, those darling plants

Even pure non-vegetarians love 'em sweet plants!

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 28 Oct 2010, 10:38

At a Hill station Near Shimoga ( Kemmangundi ) , as we started admiring the garden and plucking the flowers , the gardener pointed this board out to us .
A message from a beloved poet exhorting us not to pluck flowers , in the name of offering it as Pooja .
What you cant create , why bother killing it , he concludes

The issue with eating Nonvegetarian just does limit itself to killing . Which could be instantaneous . but No. it is not done that way . The Chicken's Neck is broken so that the beating heart will help bleed out the blood .
Making it easier to dress it up for cooking .
And if you read about the way KFC stuffs an unwilling bird with food to the point of bloating it , you will never enter a KFC outlet , if you have a conscience. ]

,http://www.kentuckyfriedcruelty.com/

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Oct 2010, 14:18

you will never enter a KFC outlet --- Count me in (or out rather) on that one. It is disgusting stuff, anyway. There are other things to avoid too, including some things that are much older than the fast-food-industry era of today.

It is a complex topic, and the only thing that I find I can be dogmatic about is that every body (as opposed to everybody) has its own dietary need, and that there is no perfect or ideal solution that fits all. Unlikely that that idea would meet with wide acceptance: it would do a lot of harm to the book trade, for starters!

On a personal note, all I can say is that total vegetarianism just does not suit my body, whatever my mind might prefer, and yes, I have given it a try, in fact, more than one try over the years. Foods, though, have energies as well as physical presence. I would consider it a kind of rudeness to go from the non-veg restaurant to the temple, and when I have played music, especially for something like Kavadi, the abstinence will have been much longer.

But, of course, the skin on the kanjira and the mridangam is still there...

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 28 Oct 2010, 16:55

I have not been following the entire thread. However when I saw the discussion about both animals and plants being "lives" I am reminded of a clarification which Krupaanandavariar gave in one of his lectures.

" If you cut a stem of a plant and plant it, it takes roots and grows into a new plant/tree. If you cut a chicken or goat leg it cannot become another chicken or goat. They are totally different types of lives. It is therefore humane to live on plants/vegetables but not so to live by killing and consuming animals"

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Oct 2010, 17:22

--- completely illogical statement.

Various "teachers" seem to love these sort of if... then... arguments. They tend to impress audiences, and, often, in the general atmosphere of approval and, even, dedication, people do not stop to consider if the argument actually makes sense. This one, like so many of its kind, does not.

I really cannot argue with a simple statement that it is more humane to live without killing, or causing the death of, animals. Why spoil the argument with a bad analogy?

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 28 Oct 2010, 21:33

At a Hill station Near Shimoga ( Kemmangundi ) , as we started admiring the garden and plucking the flowers , the gardener pointed this board out to us .
A message from a beloved poet exhorting us not to pluck flowers , in the name of offering it as Pooja .
What you cant create , why bother killing it , he concludes

We can only create human children.

If we can pluck flowers to adorn our heads or to consume as food, we can also offer them to a deity.

The issue with eating Nonvegetarian just does limit itself to killing . Which could be instantaneous . but No. it is not done that way . The Chicken's Neck is broken so that the beating heart will help bleed out the blood .

Won't that sever the connection between brain and heart (indeed, the rest of the body)? The heart has involuntary muscle, of course, so it would continue pumping. But I guess (even though it's disgusting to think of something with a pumping heart bleeding profusely) it won't feel any pain because the CNS is broken down.

JC Bose's research seems to be to show that some part of plants' response to stimuli comes from electricity rather than chemical reactions. If that alone suggests that they feel pain, then what about our computers? Does the ceiling fan "feel irritated" if we switch it on and off repeatedly, because it runs on electricity?

And if you read about the way KFC stuffs an unwilling bird with food to the point of bloating it , you will never enter a KFC outlet , if you have a conscience. ]
,http://www.kentuckyfriedcruelty.com/

This website says that similar cruelty on dogs, cats (the Western world's beloved pets) or (the sacred) cows or (the dirty) pigs will be illegal. I see another connection. These animals are all mammals. But I ask -- not goats?

I do know of some people who eat only chicken and fish, though, and not "red" meat. I somehow find it easier to "identify" with cows (and oxen, equally!), dogs, cats, goats and even pigs, as compared to hens and roosters+ and fish -- that we all "feel" the same way, etc., and I think it could be because of the mammal connection.

+ chicken are very cute, though! and birds are normally very advanced animals -- I do identify with sparrows, piegons (except when they defacate on something I like!) and crows, but somehow the feathery mass that the hens and roosters are makes them feel different!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 28 Oct 2010, 22:02

Tiger skin: a tiger skin symbolizes potential energy. Lord Shiva, sitting on or wearing a tiger skin, illustrates the idea that He is the source of the creative energy that remains in potential form during the dissolution state of the universe. Of His own Divine Will, the Lord activates the potential form of the creative energy to project the universe in endless cycles - what say you?

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 29 Oct 2010, 01:15

Surely there's leather used in the making of wallets, leather handbags, shoes, furniture in addition to a kanjira?? As for the CM-community's penchant with silk, colors and shininess (seriously what IS wrong with cotton I'd love to see more of that lovely fabric!!) it's something I don't understand but each to their own! Just citing this to highlight selective ahimsa.

On a related note, I must say that the one product the CM community is environmentally conscious is in the purchase of CDs/DVDs - an item notorious for its non-biodegradability. So those people who love their 'free' downloads and feel entitled to them 'spiritually' are indirectly reducing their carbon footprint!

I wish more recording companies would go the itunes , pay per song model and paid download route.

smala · Post by **smala** » 29 Oct 2010, 04:24

The most compelling reason for not eating meat :

Is the notion of non-violence.

No one can dispute the violence in slaughter-houses or the horrific way the animal is put to death. No matter how "humane" the slaughterhouse claims itself to be, how grass-fed the beef is, or the how "happy" grazing cows and chickens are "free ranging" or even "sustainably-farmed", the end result for the meat-industry always comes from violence.

There is no "humane" violence in ending the lives of helpless animals by force. If you have ever had the chance to look into the eyes of a cow just before it is slaughtered, or watch how a chicken knows and struggles against being slaughtered, you would not eat meat. Not if you had any feelings.

No doubt the rishis and ancestors of yore feasted with meat and enjoyed soma, but the Jain and Buddhist doctrines (although the latter has since fallen off the meat-abstinence path) are singularly responsible in reshaping our collective conciousness to where it is today on vegetarianism in India which is, at least, some 2000 years old.

A small excerpt.

In "Dancing with Siva, this question is addressed as follows: "Hindus teach vegetarianism as a way to live with a minimum of hurt to other beings, for to consume meat, fish, fowl or eggs is to participate indirectly in acts of cruelty and violence against the animal kingdom. The abhorrence of injury and killing of any kind leads quite naturally to a vegetarian diet, shakahara. The meat-eater's desire for meat drives another to kill and provide that meat. The act of the butcher begins with the desire of the consumer. Meat-eating contributes to a mentality of violence, for with the chemically complex meat ingested, one absorbs the slaughtered creature's fear, pain and terror. These qualities are nourished within the meat-eater, perpetuating the cycle of cruelty and confusion. When the individual's consciousness lifts and expands, he will abhor violence and not be able to even digest the meat, fish, fowl and eggs he was formerly consuming...."

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 29 Oct 2010, 08:27

I just had another thought. Among us, those who live in "independent houses" often have a small bunch of plants and trees in the compound, like avarekkai (a pea kind of vegetable), vaazhai (banana), mango, etc. We harvest our vegetables from them without any pinch on our conscience. A little earlier, people even had cows and milked them. But do they raise roosters or goats and slaughter them within the household? I don't think so -- and even if they did, I think it would be done in a much more "humane" manner ... when doing these things on an industrial scale, conscience probably slips off. They treat animals with little more regard than rubber or wooden dummies the same shape and size. THAT is the most frightening part of it! We should not let our innate compassion for these animals die out this way ... it's -- it's bad!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 29 Oct 2010, 08:37

The most compelling reasons for not eating meat : - during the early 60s and 70s, I have seen in Behala, Kolkatta pigs with all legs tied and cruelly killed and thereafter put on fire to remove the hair and skin. The entire community in the basti then share the pigs meat.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 29 Oct 2010, 08:40

On a related note, I must say that the one product the CM community is environmentally conscious is in the purchase of CDs/DVDs - an item notorious for its non-biodegradability.

Well, they're long-lasting enough, actually. It's the plastic covers that are a real problem! Unlike these plastic covers, we wouldn't acquire a chair, a laptop -- or a CD -- made with plastic today and throw it out tomorrow. Besides, stray animals don't eat these CDs not knowing the harm in eating them, I'm guessing. Yes, their life is nowhere near as long as it takes for them to be biologically reduced, but still it's much longer than these covers! And ahimsa is not exactly environment-friendliness, though the two things do mix up if we take consequences of everything into account.

Yes, people do avoid leather wallets, handbags -- and definitely avoid leather furniture (there are umpteen substitutes in case of furniture)!

I don't buy many CDs simply because they (usually) contain less spontenity and "diluted" music in some sense.

prashanth12 · Post by **prashanth12** » 29 Oct 2010, 11:03

VK RAMAN wrote:The most compelling reasons for not eating meat : - during the early 60s and 70s, I have seen in Behala, Kolkatta pigs with all legs tied and cruelly killed and thereafter put on fire to remove the hair and skin.

I think that criticizing the way humans have come up with grotesque ways of killing animals for food shouldn't be mixed up with whether humans should eat meat at all or not. It's not like mass butcher houses is a "natural" way of fitting into the food chain.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 02 Nov 2010, 19:45

If we can pluck flowers to adorn our heads or to consume as food, we can also offer them to a deity.

That was just a poet's plea , in the high hills , where those flowers were dancing with joy . Thoughtfully put by a gardener to save his garden. And designed to help us reset our coordinates

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 02 Nov 2010, 19:51

vidya wrote:Surely there's leather used in the making of wallets, leather handbags, shoes, furniture in addition to a kanjira??
On a related note, I must say that the one product the CM community is environmentally conscious is in the purchase of CDs/DVDs - an item notorious for its non-biodegradability. So those people who love their 'free' downloads and feel entitled to them 'spiritually' are indirectly reducing their carbon footprint! I wish more recording companies would go the itunes , pay per song model and paid download route.

That skin is of dead animals Not necessarily killed for the purpose .
Cds are better than tapes, though There have been many instances of cows swallowing the loose tapes while grazing around dumping yatds / bins and getting them entangled in their intestines

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 03 Nov 2010, 17:01

mankuthimma wrote:That was just a poet's plea , in the high hills , where those flowers were dancing with joy . Thoughtfully put by a gardener to save his garden. And designed to help us reset our coordinates

ranjithvu · Post by **ranjithvu** » 08 Nov 2010, 23:20

I suggest let all the kanjira lovers to have a big Udumbu Park , because it is our responsibility to make sure this lizard is no more an endangered species

How many people will come forward to take this to next level

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 09 Nov 2010, 06:06

ranjithvu wrote:
I suggest let all the kanjira lovers to have a big Udumbu Park , because it is our responsibility to make sure this lizard is no more an endangered species

Dont forget the udumbu is a lizard as were the dinosaurs.

We don't want a real-life "Jurassic Park"!