Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 31 Dec 2013, 11:36

Uday,
Remember I said long back to you to research veena design? I fully agree that perhaps veena development stalled with amplification.

Your comment on sitar redesign is very revealing. I find Shahid Pervez mind-blowing.

PS: I also wrote before in this thread that gayaki has come at a price of losing the native, subtle sound on the veena.

baradu2 · Post by **baradu2** » 31 Dec 2013, 13:15

https://picasaweb.google.com/1175238343 ... directlink
Hi people. I guess this would be the ultimate in EkAnda VIna.
It was made in Trichy Ramji's workshop. My grandfather named it Mono-Block Veena because it is made as a single piece with no attachments except in the top plank. Even the resting gourd part (sorekkai as it is called) does not have any attachments! It is a masterpiece in itself and sounds much better and louder than the normal veena.
Now, talking about the acoustic properties of any normal Veena, what do you think defines the tone of the Veena?
Is it the jackwood?
Is it the brass or copper or stainless steel frets?
Is it the wax which sets the frets which again has been tried with different combinations (which actually acts as a volume dampener rather than volume enhancer!)?
Is it the wooden bridge which connects the strings to the top plank of the veena?
Is it the metal top on the bridge on which the strings rest (to reduce friction and increase sound when string vibrates) which does not in anyway help other than break the continuous vibration which arises from plucking or strumming of the string and makes it pointless to have a wooden bridge in the first place because of the fact that sound vibration happens between two nodal points and between three metal parts ie, the string, the fret and the bridge top plate.
coming to microphones and acoustic or piezzo electric pickups,
I can still alter the tone of the instrument in both dynamic and condenser microphone by doing any kind of adjustments in the preamp and mixer! increase reverb, echo, treble, bass, gain etc etc etc! I can use a shure beta 58 in instrument though its a vocal mic or use shure sm57 for vocal and do the adjustments in mxer, or use akg c411 and stick the mic on to the veena for actual sound and still play around in the mixer. I can use Fishman pickups and still do all this. So, what is the actual tone of the instrument with or without amplification?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 31 Dec 2013, 13:43

It will be good if you can share some sound clips of the veena with an external Mike and then with all other modes and settings using the same Mike. One way would be do video the play with and without...

baradu2 · Post by **baradu2** » 31 Dec 2013, 13:57

sorry to disappoint sir. the instrument is very delicate. I rarely take it out of its stand and even if i do so, i do not play on it at all! It is meant more as a show-piece than as an actual playable Veena, though it is accurately tuned and is in perfect playing condition. I am too scared to play on it!

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 31 Dec 2013, 14:24

Here's a very nice fully acoustic Japanese instrument, the Shamisen. It is usually plucked with rhythmic "clacks" but here that's absent (relatively!), thereby bringing its rich acoustic tone to the fore. It is a fretless instrument.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpUrL-b7CjM

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 31 Dec 2013, 14:26

Thanks for that great photo Baradu. You have raised some excellent questions...

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 31 Dec 2013, 15:17

Is your grandfather Sri Ramji? I spent some wonderful time with him in 1986. We bought a veena from him and it is in great shape. Jayanthi mentioned him and his wonderful instruments in her lecdem.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 31 Dec 2013, 16:15

I now realise your grandfather was Sri SB.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 31 Dec 2013, 20:14

http://www.imratkhan.com/gharana_p2.html

True Gayaki ang is only attainable if the artist has intimate knowledge of gayaki and vocal compositions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCtjrsu4dFk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXMSV-4Y ... Ctjrsu4dFk

https://archive.org/details/ShahidParvezDhani01

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Jan 2014, 01:49

Uday, Sachi: The point that gayaki it is not just continuous tone but those other things matter as well is what I originally understood it to be. I have observed that in my own case, the quality of such 'gayakiness' varies tremendously if I have the sahitya+melody+laya in my mind as opposed to swaras+laya in my mind. And others can easily tell as well. So, I think I get that.

But what made me think that there may be more to this ( or less) is Sachi's succinct and unconditional statement 'Gayaki IS not lyrics'. Sachi, can you elaborate on that statement please? Do you mean 'it is about sahitya of course but it IS NOT just about sahitya'? If so then I understand. Given the current context of this discussion 'how can vocal music be not about sahitya' is what I ponder over. Thanks.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 01 Jan 2014, 03:02

Sir, maybe we have reached a point where everyone understands this and what's left is only semantics.

1. sAhitya (comes from the root meaning association) means literary, rhetorical or poetic composition of words, sung to music.
2. All vocal music is gayaki, including tAna which employs syllables like Ananta, ananta etc.
3. instrumental music mirroring vocal music, whether in rAga, tAna, or pallavi or sAhitya is called gAyaki. Note..rAga, where in vocal music we sing phrases of musicality with no meaning to the syllables (no aAhitya).

I have now the distinct feeling I am explaining things to people like you who know a lot more than me so I shall stop this foolishness.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Jan 2014, 05:20

Thanks for the elaboration RSachi. Not foolish at all, all very useful. Now I know what you were getting at before. Thanks.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 01 Jan 2014, 07:00

Given the current context of this discussion 'how can vocal music be not about sahitya' is what I ponder over

Examples from a Teacher and his disciples
https://archive.org/details/GAnaMUrtESr ... AjaVoleti2

I think there is a case for worrying about Gayaki style in Vocal itself . Let alone instrumental .
Voleti the ultimate Gayaka .The trinity would have liked to hear their compositions sung this way , perhaps .IMHO .
- Personal view , though .

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 01 Jan 2014, 08:56

sAhitya is not mere words - it is communication associated with emotional content. Like language, it is not rendered flat, but with due intonation to convey the stress on the syllables and words of sentences to enable proper communication. This is the basic premise which CM practitioners have failed to grasp. bhAva is never part of the teaching. Like nATya, every facial and hand gesture and body posture is conveying a meaning leaving aside the words sung. This is the very purpose of language. But CM gurus have not grasped the true significance of bhAva and that is why the music, I find, only flat.

I do not agree that instrument, particularly, vIna type of instrument is only mirroring what is vocally sung. Every instrument, particularly vIna type of traditional instruments, have their own standing and playing on them even without any words, is sufficient to generate emotions they are meant to convey. In fact, an insightful rendering of the instrument could result in a sAhitya - the reverse of gAyaki. Taking the example of great composers - vAggEyakkAra - they simply play on the instrument aimlessly immersed in a general mood and a tune emerges and sAhitya emerges. (btw, any sAhitya which does not flow from the necessity of conveying a message spontaneously occurring, are mere alankAra - simple poecy written with pencil and rubber. True sAhitya is written from heart and not head.) Cooing of cuckoo, mewing of cat and other animal calls are all music by their own standing. Every bird call has a separate significance. Man, with his endowment of language has added advantage in conveying emotional content.

Ragas are only mere indicators of certain mood. But every rendering of rAga is to be tailored to the emotional content of lyrics - sAhitya. I repeat that bhAva conveyance has never been part of modern CM tradition - this can only result in decline of the overall musical rendering - notwithstanding great advances that people might have made in improvisation in aesthetics.

I may also add that great vAggEyakkAras were also instrumentalists. The instrument was indeed the mood and sAhitya generator for them.

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 01 Jan 2014, 10:57

Some very good observations and perspectives on style/bhava/gayaki have emerged.
Thanks forumites for the active participation. Looking forward for more inputs.

btw, here's a breather from the very serious discussions:
A seasoned rasika was once asked to compare Balachander's and Chitti babu's way of playing Veena.
He thought for a while and said: Balachander's is a book of grammar; Chitti babu's is a love story!

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 01 Jan 2014, 11:27

varsha wrote: I think there is a case for worrying about Gayaki style in Vocal itself . Let alone instrumental .
Voleti the ultimate Gayaka .The trinity would have liked to hear their compositions sung this way , perhaps .IMHO .
- Personal view , though .

Thank you! I came to know of Voleti's name only through rasikas forum. Then listened to a concert from Sangeethapriya and that was it. Now will spend a lifetime listening to him. These are artists that you want to listen to at night with nothing else on your mind.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 01 Jan 2014, 14:22

uday_shankar wrote:
There has never been an acoustic stringed instrument in history without a resonator, i.e., a hollow body, usually with an aperture(s) to the outside in which case it becomes a classic Helmholtz resonator. In the case of the ekantha veena too there’s a hollow body. A piece of string suspended over a solid wooden block sans hollow body will be barely audible, example, electric guitar. The construction of any lute (i.e., vina, guitar, violin, sitar, etc..) consist of a) string suspended over bridge b) bridge coupled to soundboard (what the bridge rests on) c) soundboard coupled to a hollow body or resonator.

I think you need to stop by at Sapthaswara or some such store selling musical instruments and take a close look at the ekanta veenas they have. The whole instrument is carved out of a single wooden log. In ekanta veenas, the kudam and dandi are not two pieces joined together with the joint covered by some decorative plastic whatchamacallit. Put one up on their table and pluck the strings to see how good a sound you get out of it.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 01 Jan 2014, 14:30

uday_shankar wrote:
(BTW I suspect MD and others played at a much higher shruti).

Looking at the shorter veena that was used by Sri Muthuswamy Deekshithar, it has been concluded that he played the veena at 4.5 kattai.

uday_shankar wrote:
Many of these issues have been addressed brilliantly in the sitar, particuarly the Vilayat Khan type of sitar, which is a marvel of acoustic instrument design, comparable to the violin . The current vina design (not the instrument) is a distant also rans compared to the sitar and other north Indian instruments like the Sarod and Miraj Tambura.

You are welcome to the tinny sound produced by the sitar and the sarod.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 01 Jan 2014, 15:31

Webshop of Sapthaswara.in
ekadantaM Veena=a single block of wood carved into kudam (resonator) and dandi

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 01 Jan 2014, 15:43

http://odysseyonapen.blogspot.in/2011/0 ... using.html

Veena comprises a Resonator (Kumbha), the cross bar (Dandi), the dragon face (Vyala) and finally a small gourd like attachment (Kayi). The normal practice to make a Veena is to chisel it from seasoned jack wood as it is quite soft to work with. The main parts namely Kumbha, Dandi, Vyala and the Kayi are made separately and then joined together. This is the traditional and the most common way of making a Veena and are called ‘Khanda Veena’ (with parts). If the Kumbha and the Dandi are made by carving out of single piece of wood, then such a Veena is called ‘Akhanda Veena’.

These Veenas are rarely manufactured, only if specially ordered by an affluent client. The amount of wood required to carve such a Veena is naturally more and requires special skills. But Veenas with all the three parts, the Kumbha, Dandi and Vyali carved entirely out of a single piece of wood is a real rarity. This type is called 'Ekanda Veena'. This gives the best resonance, as there are no joints in the entire body of the Veena.
However, the Kai or the Gourd is manufactured separately and attached in all the above types of Veenas. So also the wooden plate to cover the entire unit.
Though Jack wood is the preferred choice, a Veena can be carved out of any other wood and is considered a real challenge, especially so if it happens to be Rose wood, as it is very hard to work with. Therefore it is not used even for making an Akhanda Veena, let alone an Ekanda Veena. But if somebody ventures to make an Ekanda Veena using only Rose wood, the news is sufficient to evoke curiosity and surprise.
MK Narasimhan, a retired Dam Safety Civil Engineer of Mysore, has taken up this daunting task of carving out the Ekanda Veena from a single log of Rose wood. Even the Kai or the gourd is also made out of hollowed rose wood. Narasimhan, who is 64 years old, has also served in the Irrigation Department at Mysore. He has completed his BSc and BE and using his education has base and started carving veena.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 01 Jan 2014, 19:52

Sivaramakrishnan wrote: Balachander's is a book of grammar; Chitti babu's is a love story!

Apt. One comes from head and the other from heart. Music is music to heart.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 01 Jan 2014, 20:39

Music is music to heart.

So True
Pyar Nahin Sur se Jisko ....
https://archive.org/details/FatehAliKhanMalkauns04
The exultation starts around the 17th minute
------
Happy New Year !!!!!!!
To be without some of the things we love is an indescribable part of happiness .
Dear O Dear Sam Swaminthan - You made our musical experiences so memorable . We love you .

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Jan 2014, 21:22

I wish there were thumbs-up thanks to click in this thread, and others like it. So many wonderful contributions that I do not have the knowledge to answer, but would like to acknowledge!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Jan 2014, 21:38

Sivaramakrishnan wrote:A seasoned rasika was once asked to compare Balachander's and Chitti babu's way of playing Veena. He thought for a while and said: Balachander's is a book of grammar; Chitti babu's is a love story!

I can see why such a characterization of Chitti babu is appropriate, his playfulness with Veena is legendary and indeed it is a love story. About Balachandar..... Remember that Lalitha masterpiece we all swooned over a few years back that Kulkarni shared with us. Calling it a book of grammar is not wrong, in the same way calling Kamban a book of grammar is not wrong but what is built on top of such a strong foundation is a beauty that the head can not fathom. Granted it is a different kind of beauty, not the soft variety, but one of intensity and vigor at one moment transforming itself into a subtle and nuanced laminar flow. It is so vulnerable you think it is going to lose its coherence and balance by itself but instead under the master's control it turns into a thundering descent into the white water rapids, taking you along for the ride, and eventually landing you safely in the comfort of a sailboat under calm winds, only for you to turn back and wonder in disbelief about the ride you just experienced.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 01 Jan 2014, 21:51

SB was more like GB Shaw and Chitti Babu, Mills and Boon.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 01 Jan 2014, 22:10

I think it was clear to those who listened & discussed his music with S.B. he was BOTH A SCIENTIST AS WELL AS AN INTELLECTUAL. His music reflected it. Chitti Babu was a FREE SPIRIT who was uninhibited & his SPIRIT moved what he played. He was VERY SENSITIVE to the SOUNDS & EMOTIONS that emnated from his Veena......It is a GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE COMPREHENSIVE DEPTH OF THE CARNATIC MUSIC SYSTEM that practically ANY APPROACH RESULTS in ENLIGHTENMENT & THE GENIUS of the CREATIVITY TO COME THROUGH.....VKV :ymapplause:

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 01 Jan 2014, 23:18

harimau wrote:Put one up on their table and pluck the strings to see how good a sound you get out of it.

So what part of the phrase "hollow body" is not clear. So here's the sequence:

1) All lutes have resonators
2) A resonator is a "hollow body"
3) The hollow body may be a separate piece glued or otherwise attached to the neck or be integral with it as in an "ekantha vina".
4) Electric guitars don't have any hollow bodies
5) Ekantha vinas have hollow bodies
6) A harp (logo of Carnatica) is made of a hollow frame which serves as a resonator.

Hollow body, hollow body, hollow body...keep repeating that and eventually the idea may sink into your cranium, unless of course, that too is a "hollow body"

.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 02 Jan 2014, 06:12

uday_shankar wrote:So what part of the phrase "hollow body" is not clear. So here's the sequence:

1) All lutes have resonators
2) A resonator is a "hollow body"
3) The hollow body may be a separate piece glued or otherwise attached to the neck or be integral with it as in an "ekantha vina".
4) Electric guitars don't have any hollow bodies
5) Ekantha vinas have hollow bodies
6) A harp (logo of Carnatica) is made of a hollow frame which serves as a resonator.

Hollow body, hollow body, hollow body...keep repeating that and eventually the idea may sink into your cranium, unless of course, that too is a "hollow body" .

I asked where the hollow body of an ekanta veena is.

It is not the kudam as it is a solid piece of wood.

It is not the dandi as that too is a solid log.

It is not the sorakkai on the left side which is used to support the veena on one's leg while playing.

That leaves only one part: the air space between the strings and the dandi.

So, in the context of Rsachi's comment about how in the Halebid scuptures the veena does not have resonators, I pointed out that the kudam in an ekanta veena is not the resonator as it is not a hollow space.

While you suggest that my cranium may be a hollow body, you should consider the fact that yours is solidly packed.

I suggest Ex-lax as a remedy.

Then, having gotten rid of the doo-doo, you could start work on your next musical invention, the chitra-doo.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 02 Jan 2014, 07:52

harimau wrote:It is not the kudam as it is a solid piece of wood.

Yes it is and it is not a solid piece of wood. The element you're missing is that even in the ekantha veena, the soundboard, or the flat piece of wood covering the kudam and the portion below the mettus is separately glued on. So brief ekantha fabrication sequence is:
1) Entire veena is carved out of a single piece of wood, including kudam, soraikkai, and the end portions.
2) The kudam and the neck portions (and perhaps the soraikkai) are further carved out and hollowed out.
3) A flat piece of wood called the soundboard is attached to cover the hollowed out portions.
4) Finishing, etc...

harimau wrote:Then, having gotten rid of the doo-doo, you could start work on your next musical invention, the chitra-doo.

Ouch...mine was a mere gentle poke Harimau

. No need to draw swords.

So the new mantra may be...the kudam is not a solid piece of wood, the kudam is not a solid piece of wood..

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 02 Jan 2014, 08:19

There was a veena maker in my village. I used to watch with interest when he finished the instruments (applying the trim, stringing, tuning, etc.) A new veena looked good and smelled great

He did not have a big business but he worked slowly and carefully. I remember seeing several half-carved out kudams sitting out in his open courtyard for months exposed to rain and shine. There would be water standing in them. I guess only whatever survived the elements and did not crack open were good for proceeding further.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Jan 2014, 09:35

the kudam is not a solid piece of wood

If it were it would stand up by itself, like one of those child's-toy bobble men. You would not be able to knock it over. The player would have to hold it down to avoid having their teeth knocked out by the other end.

Even as it is, the first time I ever picked up a veena I seriously mistook the centre of gravity and nearly dropped it.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 02 Jan 2014, 09:52

uday_shankar wrote:A flat piece of wood called the soundboard is attached to cover the hollowed out portions.

To be clear I mean the hollowed out portions of the neck and kodam, which are hollowed out from the top. The soraikkai is probably independently hollowed out from the bottom and left open.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 02 Jan 2014, 13:38

I took the liberty of throwing some descriptions into Baradwaj Raman's photo of his Ekantha Vina:

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 02 Jan 2014, 20:59

Uncivil language in a discussion about a what is considered to be our prime instrument. Free to post does not mean free to be mean to each other. It was good to me while it lasted. Bye rasikas. I will check back in a year to see if moderators still allow a few people to poison the well for the rest of us.

sweetsong · Post by **sweetsong** » 02 Jan 2014, 21:32

Gayaki in veena

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOVV_yfi1Rg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSl78I2BW2w

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Jan 2014, 21:59

Enna_Solven, one cannot leave town because of imperfect people: there will always be imperfect people.

Please do not leave the forum because one or two offend. Remember how much more there is. Please, be with us for 2014!

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 04 Jan 2014, 09:27

Saturday SRSN - Veena duo from Podigai of two Iyer brothers reminding me of Sahir and Samar (=Aamir) of Dhoom 3.
Playing very well, without contact mikes. (So far a good Kalyani-Pankaja lochana and now Saveri...)

Witness the mridangam clothed in tiger stripes!

Someone who upholds Veena and homeopathy comes out with this great quote:
Veena is like homeopathy, flute like Ayurveda and violin like allopathy!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 04 Jan 2014, 11:23

RSachi...you'll have to explain that to me...particularly that bit about Ayurveda....especially since I hold the flute is such high esteem....makes me wonder about the other comparisons....

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 04 Jan 2014, 12:54

Ayurveda to the person who made the comparison stands for authentic, Indian, expert and effective. Allopathy doesn't make the same appeal. Homeopathy is supposed to be gentle, effective and no effects!

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 04 Jan 2014, 14:45

And what about Ex-Lax !!!! ymwhisle

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 04 Jan 2014, 15:37

Oh, Ex-Lax..like Colon therapy!?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 04 Jan 2014, 17:03

Rsachi wrote:Ayurveda to the person who made the comparison stands for authentic, Indian, expert and effective

This is not the forum to debate that!
And does that mean that to the person who made the comparison, the vINA is less authentic, less Indian, and less expert and less effective than a flute?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 04 Jan 2014, 17:17

This is a no-win discussion! So my lips are sealed, Sir.

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 04 Jan 2014, 22:36

Do you agree with me that the veena, the instrument that our artistic and spiritual sensibilities have placed in the hands of Saraswati, Shiva, and Narada, is the subtlest musical instrument in the world!? Ideal for aatmaanubhava, raasanveshana, inherently, intrinsically a meditative instrument, a most harmonious and expressive extension of the creative spirit!?

This is a huge subject but I'll share a few prelim observations! These are as objective as can be since I'm a big admirer of quality veena music.

1. I rarely compare between instruments except to illustrate musical points but this basic premise needs serious examination because sentiment comes in when we talk about Saraswati, Narada etc.

2. I noticed that points have been made about Veena being a generic term for any string instrument in Bharata's times and the one placed in the hands of Saraswati, Narada etc are not the (24-fretted) instrument we call Veena today. So, if one is talking about that Veena, a more accurate statement would be 'string instrument' is the subtlest of instruments.

3. If we were to say "No, I only mean the 24-fretted Veena" to be the subtlest, we have to establish intellectually why, rather than bringing Saraswati, Narada etc. And that would be very difficult to establish because of very strong technical reasons (which I'll be happy to expound upon, if required).

4. Were this to be a personal sentiment (which is perfectly justifiable but purely in that context), there are bound to be counter-views, because

(a) even in the 24-fretted Veena, there are numerous styles, schools and banis of playing - and all of them are not necessarily anchored by subtlety.
(b) there are exponents of other instruments capable of highly subtle expressions. I've personally experienced the transcendentally subtle - in the hands of even profound percussionists.

I'll try and address other mega points like 'gayaki' in subsequent posts.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Jan 2014, 22:55

Thanks Ravikiran for pitching in. Looking forward to your further exposition on these topics.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 05 Jan 2014, 00:04

Ravikiran,
Your pitching in is wonderful, and perhaps from this point the discussion will hugely benefit from your inputs (can't think of a better word) as an acknowledged master musician and string+slide-instrumentalist.

I don't know enough about the ancient string instruments and here, by Veena, I meant only the (24 fretted etc) Veena as we know it today in CM. Maybe there existed even more sophisticated or subtle veenas in the past. I imagine that ancient scriptural references to the Veena were all occasioned by the intrinsic merit of that instrument and there is perhaps no reason why the present-day Veena would lack that merit. And I am also looking at the basic Veena without attachments or amplification.

The reason I think veena is the subtlest is because I think
Playing with both hands being in direct contact with strings, being able to play it with even the softest pluck or slide (=no threshold of effort), positioned as the instrument is close to the musician's ears and more or less clasped close to his chest , makes it all ideally positioned to make subtle and meditative music.

Proofs that other instruments can be extremely subtle or that other CM instrumentalists have been or can be very very subtle or even more subtle is not really material unless we go on to prove why Veena is less subtle than X in the hands of someone equally capable of playing both instruments! It is perhaps difficult at that point to be objective and marshal experimental data to prove or disprove the hypothesis.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 05 Jan 2014, 06:20

Dear Ravikiran,
I feel that in the hands& ability of a GENIUS LIKE YOU ANY INSTRUMENT will SOUND GREAT! I read a book with quotes & exercise which gives equivalent of a mental exercise for each day (an attempt at meditation). Today's quote from Washington Carver says: ANYTHING WILL TALK TO YOU IF YOU TRY HARD ENOUGH WITH PERSISTANCE & HONESTY. I feel it EQUALLY APPLIES TO THIS AREA. The Chitra Veena sounds the way it does WHEN A RAVI KIRAN PLAYS IT! There are complicated reasons why & I will not go into here. I am in the process of writing on this subject about one of our great musicians expounding on this.VKV

chitravina ravikiran · Post by **chitravina ravikiran** » 06 Jan 2014, 06:17

I contemplated a little more on this subject and here are a few more thoughts...

1. We seem to be addressing at least two types of subtleties here - (a) tonal (b) musical.

2. Musical is generally in the hands (minds) of the artiste but tonal subtlety of an instrument can influence the mindset of a musician to a certain extent.

3. Tonal subtlety is dependent on the instrument's design, construction, playing technique and individual artiste's sensitivity etc.

4. Given these, a plucked instrument can never be as subtle as a bowed instrument in un-amplified conditions,. This is because control of sustain on the right hand is limited in plucked instruments, since tonal decay sets in after each stroke. Sustain is dependent largely on the 'attack' of the right hand pluck, which forces a plucked instrumentalist to opt for louder plucking to play longer phrases or repeated pluck which breaks a given phrase musically & lyrically several times (in varnams/padams/slow krtis/alapanas, this will be even more obvious).

5. Even among plucked instruments, a fretted instrument is hampered more to produce musical subtleties. Because, logically speaking, a fretted instrument has only 12-notes in an octave while a fretless instrument has infinite notes even between one note and the next.

6. Thus a fretted veena artiste has to go beyond frets to pursue musical subtlety. But those who do in practice are exceptions and even among these, most get lost in the thrill of exploration of the technique which, in an ideal scenario should only be incidental to music.

7. A bowed instrument can be infinitely more subtle provided the artiste pursues the microscopic but so far in Indian music very few artistes have explored the bow's real potential fully and most violinists change between strings so often while playing that they break the music much more in the process. Since the violin sounds tonally fulfilling even with moderate bowing (with the bow held like an iron-box), careers are sustained with just acceptable levels of competence and there is no real compulsion for an artiste to pursue anything subtle.

8. Thus, even though the violin is as capable of interpreting an exquisite padam of Kshetragna like Moratopu in Sahana with nearly as much subtlety as Brindamma, very few have ventured to explore such areas. Even in a tana varnams with lots of space between syllables, the instrument is highly capable of projecting infinitely more subtle sahitya & sangita bhava...

9. This then takes as to a paradoxical situation where we have to amplify (plucked instruments) to pursue and express subtleties better, but that's another huge subject!

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 06 Jan 2014, 06:55

Each one of your posts is absolutely stunning for the precision , perfection in articulation , and a lack of condescension to get down to our levels of experience .
It is such a delight to read them . We shall stay thankful for all your responses .
I was hoping to be a musician atleast in my next janma . It looks like it will take several of them , after reading your posts .

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 06 Jan 2014, 08:24

Varsha, you're so right. Of course Ravikiran will have to descend to our level without condescending! And that's the definition of the best teacher according to Swami Vivekananda.

So we have moved to discussing the different stringed instruments, all grouped together in the basic definition of the veena.

Now to my mind, what is the most basic sound, and hence the most likely element in contributing to the instrument's subtlety (ie not versatility, stage presence etc.) in the case of a stringed instrument? I would say it is the basic plucking. I suppose the musical string was first plucked before being strummed or rubbed with a bow or struck with a hammer. Just like the Tibetan gong was at first struck before we moved on to rubbing its rim with a stick to produce a sustained resonance.

Fretless sliding vs frets for easy and accurate note production, multiple strings, sympathetic strings, cross-bowing, different resonators, amplification mikes, all modify the musical expression of the veena and act as enablers for its musicality in the hands of the musician, building on its basic sound-producing structure of a plucked string.

Ravikiran, am I going in the right direction, please?