Copyright claims of Thyagaraja songs by recording labels

eesha · Post by **eesha** » 17 Jan 2014, 18:48

Rsachi wrote:Samarasaa,
They can also compare actual music content using software like Shazam.

Shazam is unlikely to work for Carnatic music. Has anyone used it successfully ?

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 17 Jan 2014, 18:53

samarasaa wrote:Hello all,

Are forum members aware of a this development on You Tube where recording companies "OWN" carnatic songs? While every recording company has every right to claim copyrights on a specific artist's rendering of a song that is produced by that company, how can they stake claim to Thyagaraja's Pancharatna Krithis or that of Purandara Dasa etc etc?

We were affected by this at Parivadini,we have so far got 33 strikes,we have bought time by appealing but thats only for 30 days. If the record labels reinstate claim we could lose our channel as well. The irony is that we never uploaded any concerts,these were actual live concerts.

Very happy that this at-least being discussed in a public forum,have been talking to record labels - in the big ones it is next to impossible to reach the concerned guy. You cant expect youtube to do much in this case when wrong documents claiming ownership have been put up by these labels.

Regards

PS: This is how one can claim for content id - https://www.youtube.com/content_id_signup

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 Jan 2014, 19:00

Samarasaa, we have indeed discussed this as the flip side to the music piracy issue in this thread....

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 17 Jan 2014, 19:02

eesha wrote:Shazam is unlikely to work for Carnatic music. Has anyone used it successfully ?

Only a couple of songs of Bombay Jayashree works and that i think is because of Life of "poi"

Cheers

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 17 Jan 2014, 19:18

An experiment I did in the last couple of minutes:

This is the Youtube track (played on my smartphone)- labelled
07 - Sudha Ragunathan - Mellifluous Melodies - Mokshamugalada (Raga Saramati; Tala Adi)
Uploaded by tamilgod:

http://youtu.be/15ox7YLecm8

This is what Shazam said (on my iPad, after listening on the built-in mic):

Now guess what. If the original label complains, this guy's YT upload will be in jeopardy.

I have seen Shazam identify MANY Carnatic tracks before correctly. Their database is big and growing by the day. The only criterion is it should be a tagged track on a public label DB.

(Once someone downloaded and reshared on YT one of the uploads I am associated with, we complained and YT pulled it down)

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 17 Jan 2014, 19:23

Rsachi wrote:
This is what Shazam said (on my iPad, after listening on the built-in mic):

Now guess what. If the original label complains, this guy's YT upload will be in jeopardy.

Amazing,Thanks a ton, now there is one more song added to our db which we will have to mute during our live broadcast's!
Cheers

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 17 Jan 2014, 19:35

Well shazam picked it BECAUSE it is the identical audio track;

so you needn't pull out other Mokshamu renderings!

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 17 Jan 2014, 19:45

Rsachi wrote:Well shazam picked it BECAUSE it is the identical audio track; so you needn't pull out other Mokshamu renderings!

Its a patternmatch, so highly likely that it repeats. Remember that record labels have claimed ownership on the SONG (not the version of a song).
BREAKING NEWS

Just got a dispute rejected by a label called Lahari Music - O Rangasayee is owned by them apparently,I called up personally to come to know that we are putting up content they "OWN" https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

Cheers
Venkat

PS: Going to share it on the other thread as well.

eesha · Post by **eesha** » 17 Jan 2014, 19:59

Rsachi : My query is, will shazam identify mokshamu sung by different artists (male, female) in different tempos ?? can you pls check that out ?? txs.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 17 Jan 2014, 20:14

I can check, but I can answer it right away. Shazam works on comparing the digital samples, from anywhere in the song. It is amazingly accurate. It doesn't compare ID tags or file names. If a file sample is very noisy or distorted, even if it is based on a track digitised on Shazam DB, it may occasionally fail.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 17 Jan 2014, 20:58

Venkat,
If someone played a Mozart composition today and uploaded on YT, just because Berenstein or Menuhin has played the same number elsewhere and copyrighted it, would YT reject the upload!? I don't think so!!!
I can spend some time and give you examples, but I think you see my drift.
I think you should educate the YT folks and. Indian Copyrights Society about this.
If some of us get together for doing this, so much the better.

Meanwhile,
I strongly suggest to you folks to find other channels and file servers for uploads than YT.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 17 Jan 2014, 21:32

Guys
Please study (especially those affected or likely to be affected reg. your YT uploads) this website. It is full of interesting information and insights. All recording labels seem to be their members. Who have perhaps copyrighted all the works published by them!!!

Http://iprs.org

Now Raaga Music as well as Lahari are iprs members. Raaga has at least five versions of O Rangashaayi. How come IPRS has allowed it? Iprs license items only with hefty fees (7.5L etc!)

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 Jan 2014, 22:37

I think it is high time we as rasikas did something here - we either get the recording companies to back off their stupid claims of ownership of material that they can nby no stretch of imagination call their own, OR, ensure that these same recording companies charge (and display the charges publicly) every single artist who performs these compositions they have immorally claimed for their own.

Parivadini, in the meantime, if you find out how companies like Lahiri claimed ownership of these songs, you should do the same and claim ownership of all the remaining compositions of Sri tyAgarAja, MD, SS, OVK, GKB, AK etc....post-haste.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Jan 2014, 23:37

There is a lot of ground covered in the previously mentioned other thread. Maybe the mods could merge, before too many questions get asked twice, and too much effort is duplicated.

This is an important issue: we need to stay focussed

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 Jan 2014, 23:45

Nick H wrote:This is an important issue: we need to stay focussed

Yes!!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Jan 2014, 10:26

Let me see if I can merge.

What bothers me is, we keep talking, we are outraged but we do not know what to do. Can someone who have contacts with artists ask them if they know anything about this? The silence beyond this and other social networks is deafening indeed.

What do we do?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 18 Jan 2014, 10:35

Three point agenda-
1.Educate YT why O Rangashayi can't be copyrighted.
2. Use a legal channel to educate IPRS on why their protectionism should not stem Live performances and webcasts.
3. Discuss with artists what kind of a bind they ha ve got into with labels (I heard top CM musicians have signed contracts with music labels which are pretty watertight)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Jan 2014, 10:48

>1.Educate YT why O Rangashayi can't be copyrighted.

I like this idea the best. How do we do this?

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 18 Jan 2014, 11:01

Rsachi wrote:I heard top CM musicians have signed contracts with music labels which are pretty watertight)

You have to see it to believe it.

Meeting with a rather historic carnatic music lawyer today,will keep the forum posted.
Personally,This thing is turning out to be entertaining as well have been receiving a lot of advise some are good and some are comical,plan to defuse the tension of the post by posting one (from my FB actually)

--------
Mylapore mama's are notorious for their ability to ask anything and everything and give free advise,invariably most of them are highly educated -folsk who have held high offices and now spend 6 months of their time in Mylapore (the other Six months is normally spent in official capacity as an IAS (read Indian Aayyah Services) outside the country).
One such mama very curious about our simulcast operations,came forward, as is the normal practice within ten minutes all important personal questions like how much salary,how many children i have,what is the rate of interest on my housing loan etc etc happened.
Finally at the end with absolute concern he said " Yenna da ambi,ivlolan B.Tech MBA padichirukey etc yen, velai kadaikiliya ? business panrey "<Read you have studied so much? why, did you not get a job? you are doing bijuness>. I found it initially funny but then later on realized this is just not funny,it is hysterically comical.

This thing continues with the latest call from a concerned frienduncle who was worried about the fact that in such a short time we have to deal with big name record labels. "Ambi na solreyn this is super idea you meet Sex Doctor Dr.xxxxxxxxxxxx,he is paying a lot of money to all this TV channels to play his program,I am sure you can easily charge him a lot of money for this and he will get global reach as well, 'why get into anavsymana trouble '?Dushtana kanda doora vilagu".

‪#‎entreprenurship701‬ ‪#‎ssn‬ ‪#‎sociallearning‬ ‪#‎FB‬
https://www.facebook.com/venkataraghava ... tif_t=like
-------------------
cheers

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 18 Jan 2014, 11:12

Nick H wrote:This is an important issue: we need to stay focussed

Completely agree. We are working on a document in which we will share all the copyright violations that we have so far received along with the screenshots,just wanted to check once again with experts on the forum if all the songs that have been putforward is really in public domain (60 years since death of composer),will sincerely appreciate any help on this.

Thanks

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 18 Jan 2014, 11:36

JPEG SCREENSHOTS of ownership claims of carnatic compositions

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing

To our knowledge not sure if any of these barring Lalgudi Thillana one can actually claim ownership,not sure if the Lalgudi family are aware of this. If any other stuff that we have posted is not public domain please do let us know.

cheers

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 18 Jan 2014, 11:46

Parivadini
There are right now several versions of O Rangashayi on YouTube including the famous MSS one.

Navaneeta Krishnan in his Aug 15 2012 presentation on MSS in Indiranagar Sangeetha Sabha played a famous recording of hers with B&W video of this song from maybe 1950's - this is also part of a Films Division documentary available in 4 parts on YT.

Ariyakudi made this song really famous- he must have sung it in 1920's-30's at least.

By the way, I heard that once Papanasam Sivan filed a case against Ariyakudi that he as the composer of a song should get compensated in the proceeds of a gramophone plate Ariyakudi had sung. I believe Ariyakudi won the case. in other words, even composers do not enjoy as much rights as the actual performers of the music in CM, as per my understanding. It is a different matter that the performers have handed over all their rights to the 'labels' for whatever consideration.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Jan 2014, 12:26

The other thread began with a link to coverage of remarks made by Chief Justice Sathasivam, about music piracy, at the SK presentation. N Murali, of course, was also featured.

If it is possible, these are the sort of people that need to be made aware that the drive against music piracy in carnatic music music is actually a drive to commercially co-opt out-of-copyright classical music for the financial gains of various corporates --- which could also be described as piracy.

Granted, the holder of the office Chief Justice is not really the sort of person to whom strangers may freely pay a social call, but he has expressed himself as an interested person in music, obviously in law, and in the intersection of the two. Surely the rasika community has connections?

Perhaps N Murali is more interested in music than in the press, these days --- but he certainly has the highest possible profile, and, no doubt, a pretty impressive network of connections. Again, I find it hard to believe that the president of the music academy is not personally known to someone in this community.

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 18 Jan 2014, 13:16

Hi,
The Label has got back to us saying that they have "THE EXCLUSIVE WORLDWIDE rights for this song"

The Image is here (reply to our email - requesting(rather Begging) that we are indeed doing this for the CM rasika populace at large and we would like to continue the same on public domain for FREE).
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_OqGL ... sp=sharing

The request has been turned down, looks like we might really have to do wedding webcasts and Sex Doctor publicity broadcast for a living. Thanks all for your support.Looks like nothing much can really be done.

Cheers
Venkat

samarasaa · Post by **samarasaa** » 18 Jan 2014, 13:25

Aside from getting the opinions of say N Murali and some artists, perhaps forum members can also figure if they can find copyright lawyers they know who could shed some light?

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 18 Jan 2014, 13:33

https://www.eff.org/copyrightweek
http://benetech.org/2014/01/17/the-case ... -fair-use/
quote
The next time you set your digital device of choice to record your favorite show so you can watch it whenever you want, take a moment to be thankful that you’re protected from lawsuits from the entertainment industry. For on January 17, 1984, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that consumers could tape their favorite TV shows and watch them later without the copyright holder’s consent. Such action, the Court decided, didn’t constitute copyright infringement because it was fair use, that is, a limitation and exception to the exclusive rights granted by copyright law to the author of a creative work.

Logo for Copyright Week 2014.This ruling by the Supreme Court in Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 U.S. 417 (1984), also known as the “Betamax case”, is a landmark copyright precedent that has had enormous implications for the media economy. It affected every step of the evolution of digital media—from the VCR to the digital video recorder to YouTube. It also underscores just how critical a balanced copyright law is for technology innovation.

Why do we at Benetech care about this so much? It’s because our mission depends on a balanced intellectual property system that encourages innovation. As a different kind of Silicon Valley tech company—a nonprofit with a pure focus on social good—our goal is to see that the best of technology gets applied to social needs left unaddressed by for-profit businesses. The tools we develop for that purpose span a range of fields—from human rights, to global literacy, to the environment—but no matter what area we work in, we depend on an IP system that’s friendly to technological advances and to positive social impact.

...............
..............
Conclusion

At their best, IP laws encourage technological advances, reward creativity, and benefit society. Practical and creative innovators need space to operate and ensure those benefits reach the people who desperately need new solutions but are often least able to afford them. To make this possible, we must ensure balance in copyright laws and defend fair use as a laboratory for creativity. With the leverage of technology and the foundation provided by well thought out IP laws, we can inspire both economic growth and social good.
unquote

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 18 Jan 2014, 14:04

varsha wrote: constitute copyright infringement because it was fair use, that is, a limitation and exception to the exclusive rights granted by copyright law to the author of a creative work.

Hi we claimed fair use/public domain for this.Our appeal got dismissed and the claims of the recording label upheld.
Cant do much if they have a statutory document which says they are the legal copyright owner.

Regards
Venkat

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 18 Jan 2014, 14:51

Can you guys appeal to the Intellectual Properties Board? They have an office right on the main road (Grand Southern Trunk Road/Mount Road/Anna Salai) in Guindy.

See if you can get a blanket ruling that the works of Thyagaraja, Deekshithar, Syama Sastri, etc., belong in the public domain.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 18 Jan 2014, 15:01

Folks,
I have submitted a petition to You Tube as follows:
PETITION LINK:
https://www.change.org/petitions/you-tu ... atic-music

(PLEASE CLICK AND SIGN!)

Dear You Tube, you know that worldwide, listeners of the classical musical form of India, Carnatic music, reach out thousands of times everyday on You Tube to wonderful uploads of great music by artistes, organizers and other listeners.

I have come to know (see photo) that Lahari Recording has successfully got you to block an upload of a live concert recording of a Carnatic musical composition "O Rangashayi", claiming worldwide rights.

To set the context, Carnatic music comprises a rich body of lyrical+musical compositions by Thyagaraja (1767-1847 CE) and others. These thousands of compositions are learnt under teachers for many years by musicians who thereafter present the compositions with or without many improvisational elements like raga alapana, niraval, swara, etc. Each such presentation of the self-same composition therefore is UNIQUE and appreciated by listeners live or via broadcasts and You Tube uploads many times over.

If a music label (eg a member of IPRS.org) claims copyrights to the original musical composition instead of copyrights to their own specific recording track of a particular artiste, this would be laughable; and more so reprehensible to the development and encouragement of Carnatic music. The extant example is perhaps a tip of the iceberg as these recording company labels may effectively armtwist you and exploit You Tube for their monetizing their own records instead of encouraging new presentations and newer musicians. This will KILL CARNATIC MUSIC.

You Tube would do well to understand the ethos and creative forces at play in Carnatic music. As we speak, the centenary of Thyagaraja is being celebrated in Thiruvaiyyaru, Tamil Nadu. Songs like O Rangashayi will be performed by several musicians, heard and enjoyed. If those assembled heard that someone holds copyrights to this song, they will be scandalized.

If there is a commercial label of the reading of say the Bible, would that label prevent any new Bible readings from being uploaded on You Tube for violating copyrights!? Who can ever hold copyrights on Bible readings or Carnatic music compositions!?

Please come back to me for a detailed face-to-face discussion if you like. We can meet with hundreds if musicians and listeners in an open forum to sort this matter out. To save you trouble, I am creating this petition, which will be signed by many affected by such copyrights protection in Carnatic music.

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 18 Jan 2014, 15:26

Upping the Ante !

WE are starting our live coverage of carnatic music concert today. In case our broadcast gets terminated due to any alleged copyright violation,please excuse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJRplxJ8Y-Q

Ensoy

PS: Please feel free to share the link

vichu1947 · Post by **vichu1947** » 18 Jan 2014, 16:09

parivadini wrote: Hi we claimed fair use/public domain for this.Our appeal got dismissed and the claims of the recording label upheld.
Cant do much if they have a statutory document which says they are the legal copyright owner.

This is crazy. I suggest we retaliate this way, though I hate prescribing this:

All of us have 1 or more commercial albums that we would have bought. Let us all upload these albums and start sharing the links in various forums and discussion groups. Let people download and enjoy them without of need to buy

When labels behave like thugs we too have to behave like thugs

For every album that has been bought , sale of 10 potential albums should be spoiled.

And that will bring these label mafia on their knees

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Jan 2014, 16:55

vichu1947 wrote:This is crazy. I suggest we retaliate this way, though I hate prescribing this:

All of us have 1 or more commercial albums that we would have bought. Let us all upload these albums and start sharing the links in various forums and discussion groups. Let people download and enjoy them without of need to buy

WAIT, please: stop and think.

The argument is that these companies are claiming to own something that they cannot possibly own. Our argument is that they are outside the law in making such a claim. This is a matter of reasoning, and reasoning within the law, not of just throwing stones.

What you are suggesting would be illegal. We will gain nothing by putting ourselves outside the law too.

(and anyway, it wouldn't work: there is a vast quantity of copyright music, worldwide, available on the net: that fact has not put anybody out of business yet.

Sachi, the trouble with your petition is that it does not distinguish between music written 150 years ago, which cannot be "owned" in the copyright sense, today, and music by contemporary composers which certainly can.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 18 Jan 2014, 17:21

Nick,
I believe that a pointed attempt to establish the wrong in copyrighting compositions has been offered as an opportunity on a platter and by this example.
Once we win this point, we can go on to dispute the IPRS stand. That was point 2.

By signing the petition, we will be hugely helping the cause. Please think about it.

I have not stated that antiquity of a composition makes it non-copyrightable. The very idea of compositions having copyrights is unknown in CM.

samarasaa · Post by **samarasaa** » 18 Jan 2014, 19:06

The very idea of compositions having copyrights is unknown in CM.

Exactly! This is beginning to sound like patenting medicinal properties of turmeric, neem and benefits of yoga asanas.

Needs to be nipped in the bud.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 18 Jan 2014, 19:16

deleted

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 18 Jan 2014, 19:44

deleted

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 18 Jan 2014, 19:45

Read/download the book

The Grammar of Carnatic Music
K. G. Vijayakrishnan
Type: eBook
Released: 2007
Publisher: Walter de Gruyter
Page Count: 358
Format: pdf
Language: English
ISBN-10: 3110183137
ISBN-13: 9783110183139
About the Author K.G. Vijayakrishnan is Professor at the School of Language Sciences, Central Institute of English Foreign Languages, Hyderabad, India.

See what he says about copyright for a composition!!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 18 Jan 2014, 20:45

Venkat of Parivadini,

Let me start off with the usual queries of Mylapore mamas.

How old are you? Are you married? If so, for how long? How many children? What do you earn?

)

Now that the preliminaries are dispensed with, my suggestion is for you to request an injunction from the High Court at Madras which would prevent these organizations from claiming and enforcing copyright. They will have to then come to the court and submit documentary evidence of how they have the copyright to 200-year-old songs. That ought to put an end to their shenanigans.

Yes, it will cost money but I think that is well spent. Sri R Krishnaswamy, Secretary of Narada Gana Sabha, is a Senior Advocate who practices before the High Court at Madras. You could approach him informally and ask him what to do about the matter. Even if he is not an expert on copyright law, he can put you in touch with lawyers who are. In addition, I think he would have a personal interest in the matter if it is brought to his attention as it could affect the operation of his and other sabhas in Chennai.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 18 Jan 2014, 21:01

parivadini wrote:Hi,
The Label has got back to us saying that they have "THE EXCLUSIVE WORLDWIDE rights for this song"

Venkat, this goes back to my earlier question - what does one (say Parivadini) need to do to get worldwide rights? I'm sure there's an established process...let's figure that out, and get exclusive worldwide rights for every other CM composition under the Sun...and when labels want to sell a commercial record with those compositions, they can be served the same sauce...after all, what's good for the goose must be good for the gander too....if you can't beat them from the outside, do it from the inside.

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 18 Jan 2014, 21:32

Very sad to read through, particularly after parivadini came into picture....

Is there any other website to support live streaming and also archiving? Fighting with youtube will be hard, though i will sign the petition.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 18 Jan 2014, 21:37

There are other video streaming services and possibilities. Livestream.com is one.
But no need to give up on YT

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 18 Jan 2014, 22:18

The claim made by an "Indian establishment over a composition can be settled through an Indian court having juristriction..

The larger problem is the claims of Music Publishing Rights Collecting Society operating from US ..

How they are to be solved??

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 18 Jan 2014, 22:44

IPRS.ORG WEBSITE:
THE INDIAN PERFORMING RIGHT SOCIETY LIMITED.

A lot of people are not aware, or atleast not very clear about the functioning of IPRS. They often ask, What is the business of IPRS? Well, in short, the business of IPRS is to issue Licences to users of music and collect Royalties from them, for and on behalf of its Members i.e. the Authors, the Composers and the Publishers of Music and distribute this Royalty amongst them after deducting its administrative costs. The IPRS came into existence on 23rd August 1969.

The IPRS is a representative body of Owners of Music, viz. The Composers, Lyricists (or Authors) and the Publishers of Music and is also the sole Authorised Body to issue Licences permitting usage of Music within India by any person. Composers are those who are better known as Music Directors, Authors are better known as Lyricists, Publishers of Music are the Producers of Films and Music Companies, or those who hold Publishing Rights of the Musical Works. The Society is a non-profit making Organisation and is a Company Limited by Guarantee and Registered under the Companies Act, 1956.

It is also registered under Section 33 of the Copyright Act, 1957 as the Only Copyright Society in the Country to do business of issuing Licenses for usage of Music. In other words, IPRS is the only National Copyright Society in the Country which is permitted to commence and carry on the Copyright Business in Musical Works and any Words or any Action intended to be sung, spoken or performed with the music. It has received the Certificate of Registration from the Registrar of Copyrights dated 27-3-1996.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Jan 2014, 22:47

Rsachi wrote:I have not stated that antiquity of a composition makes it non-copyrightable. The very idea of compositions having copyrights is unknown in CM.

If you claim that in a legal environment, you will be laughed at. Even the shopping list your wife gave you today is copyright. the copyright in all compositions, whatever the genre, belongs to the composer/lyricist/author.artist.

Whether they choose to claim rights, payments, etc, in those compositions is another matter entirely.

Harimau speaks some words of wisdom here. Get some VIPs involved. VIPs that know VIPs, and if any of them happen to be lawyers or judges, then all the better.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 18 Jan 2014, 23:18

Nick,
To understand CM, please read that book I have linked above, it will help the discussion.

Please note what is the real issue I have focussed on: O Rangashayi as an example. NOBODY CAN CLAIM COPYRIGHT ON IT.

Theoretically, if a present-day Lalgudi or TRS or someone makes a composition, and offers to license its notation and usability copyright, do you think anyone would sing his composition? Do you think his composition will see the light of day?

I request someone to quote the famous case which Papanasam Sivan filed unsuccessfully against Ariyakudi.

I think we all should know the difference between
piracy=illegal copying and redistributing commercial label tracks, and
copyright on compositions- which is unheard of in CM. It is the nature of the beast.
It is like Venkatamakhin patenting the 72 melakartas.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Jan 2014, 00:01

Sachi, I like your idea of the petition. Good initiative. I have signed. I am glad to see some action. Thanks. I also like harimau's reference to go at it from the legal angle too since this is not just a youtube problem, that is just a symptom.

Let us go with the path of least resistance with out getting into the issues above, like the nature of CM etc. As we all know it is a pretty straightforward case to explain.

68 more signatures needed as of now. What happens next?

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 19 Jan 2014, 00:05

I have signed the petition and also posted in FB.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Jan 2014, 00:35

parivadini wrote:Upping the Ante !

WE are starting our live coverage of carnatic music concert today. In case our broadcast gets terminated due to any alleged copyright violation,please excuse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJRplxJ8Y-Q

Jayalakshmi Sekar plays an excellent Asaveri, listen to it before it is taken down by the record label idiots ;(

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Jan 2014, 00:51

Rsachi wrote:Nick,
To understand CM, please read that book I have linked above, it will help the discussion.

It is enough for me to see that it is not written by a lawyer, and is not concerned with legal aspects. It is a cultural and philosophical opinion, not a legal one. It does not count in law, nor does the idea. It is law we are talking about here. It absolutely will not work to claim, hey all that stuff is nothing to do with us because we're carnatic

Theoretically, if a present-day Lalgudi or TRS or someone makes a composition, and offers to license its notation and usability copyright, do you think anyone would sing his composition? Do you think his composition will see the light of day?

Do you think they do not own the copyright in their compositions? Of course they do. Just because something has not been enforced, or charged for, does not mean that it it is not there. No doubt, they are just happy to see their compositions performed. But watch them suddenly discovering their copyright if one of those songs becomes a hit film song, gets translated around the world, becomes a number-one international hit, with one or more rock bands minting millions from it...

Possible useful arguments...

1. There is no existing copyright in the works of the great composers who died over a hundred years ago. (In fact, in any work where the composer died >[insert correct number here] years ago). It cannot be claimed by anyone, because it does not exist.

2. That the party claiming ownership of copyright in a more recent composition do not, in fact, own it. They must prove that they do.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 19 Jan 2014, 07:09

Harimau speaks some words of wisdom here. Get some VIPs involved.

http://www.hindu.com/2011/02/02/stories ... 640200.htm
Pointing out how modern technology was increasingly used for piracy of musical works, she quoted the Korean example of implementation of the ‘three strike' concept, by which users of internet would be disciplined from downloading materials illegally. This had led to the increase in sales.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/03/k ... ee-strikes
In July 2009, South Korea became the first country to introduce a graduated response or "three strikes" law. The statute allows the Minister of Culture or the Korean Copyright Commission to tell ISPs and Korean online service providers to suspend the accounts of repeated infringers and block or delete infringing content online. There is no judicial process, no court of appeal, and no opportunity to challenge the accusers.
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This Wednesday, Korea's National Human Rights Commission recommended that the three strikes law be re-examined, given its unclear benefits, and its potential violation of the human rights to receive and impart information and to participate in the cultural life of the community.
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But back in Korea, the entertainment industry's experiment in Internet enforcement has been a failure. Instead of tackling a few "heavy uploaders" involved in large scale infringement, the law has spiraled out of control. It has now distributed nearly half a million takedown notices, and led to the closing down of 408 Korean Internet users' web accounts, most of which were online storage services. An investigation led by the Korean politician Choi Jae-Cheon showed that half of those suspended were involved in infringement of material that would cost less than 90 U.S. cents.
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