Copyright shocker on Thyagaraja kritis

[Nick H]

At last! Somebody has mentioned the hard, simple legal fact

Clearly, there is a need to distinguish between ground-level copyright over com­positions and copyright over sound recordings performed by artistes. Anybody who deals in a sound recording, the rights to which have been acquired by a recording label, without the latter’s permission, infringes the label’s copyright. But anybody who wishes to perform the same composition as that of the recording can do so without permission from the music label, as long as it is in public domain. This is because there can be no copyright over such songs. “Under present laws, copyright protection on a particular artwork lasts for a period of 60 years after the death of the artiste. But in this particular case, since there are no descendants of Thyagaraja who can claim copyright, and he has been long dead, there can be absolutely no claim of copyright on his songs,” says Shamnad Basheer, formerly with Intellectual Pro­perty Law at the National University of Juridical Sciences. “But what is happening is that music companies claiming copyright over the compositions are foo­ling the public,” he says. What they are doing is known as ‘copyfraud’, where they lead the public into believing that they are the true copyright holders of var­ious artworks, and thus extract royalty from unsuspecting small channels.

Yes, it is nice to see TMK's continuing support, but even he is getting lost in matters of community and tradition. Such matters are a vital part of the life of the music, but they cannot be used to batter a recording company in court --- but the hard, cold-steel legal fact, as quoted, can.

[rshankar]

Going further along the tack taken by Nick, why take issue with YouTube, and even the recording companies, when the ultimate culprit is the organization or body in India that has, it its infinite wisdom, granted sweeping copyrights for these recordings. IMO, YouTube is only enforcing a stupid ruling from India, and one can't really fault recording companies - most try to get a whole host of things slipped under surreptitiously, and I'm sure that if the original copyright application had been turned down by a discerning body, they would have tucked their tails, and gone away with what they were allowed to do. Unless I missed it in the two pieces posted, I do not see any mention of said bodies of dubious merit.
IMO, the blame is fairly and squarely on the authority that grants copyrights in India, AND, ignorance is certainly not an excuse they can hide behind. Makes me wonder if even here there was some underhand dealing that sweetened the deal so to speak...

[venkatakailasam]

Can this issue with IMO be refereed to the court for their decision ...

[VK RAMAN]

India and Rule of Law - for the wealthy and power that may be

[vasanthakokilam]

Parivadini: Can you please report the status on this issue?

There was a mention that these recording companies do have copyright on these compositions ( and not just recordings ). How true is this? Has anyone seen the papers on this?

If they actually hold a piece of paper that says they have the copyright for the composition, then as Ravi says, we have to have the organization that issued those copyrights annul them since they are invalid as per law.

if not, as Shamnad Basheer says in the quoted paragraph above, that these recording companies are playing 'copyfraud'. Can they be taken to court for copyfraud?

[parivadini]

Parivadini: Can you please report the status on this issue?

if not, as Shamnad Basheer says in the quoted paragraph above, that these recording companies are playing 'copyfraud'. Can they be taken to court for copyfraud?

Not all are copyfraud some are Genuine Claims(as in they have a document to prove so),what we are questioning is how can some one issue such a copyright at the first place. Basically there are also quite a few composition that has been REALLY copyrighted. I can personally stand guarantee for it as a witness. We are awaiting our RTI reports and should get it over the next one month. The Amendment to the act thankfully has just come through,however even the govt copyright website has only report piracy nothing called report wrong copyright claim!

This is going to be a long,arduous battle, knowing our present state of Justice System atleast a few years,resource,time and money to be spent on this as well. But then it is, what it is. No point cribbing.

The biggest problem we are facing is spreading this message across(please do share these generously on social media/mails/whatsapp etc ) and assembling these other small channels/musicians no one (other than a real small few,who have also personally got hit themselves by these strikes) is readily coming forward.They do if we coax,cajole put senti and make a grown up man cry!! In some cases it is understandable (Top 10 for eg) since every one invariably has a record contract with these big labels.

What could work is social boycott as a threat but for that we need real large numbers.
Till that time, let justice prevail!

Thanks for support
Venkat

PS: As Rasikas PLEASE dont worry we have a Plan B & C in place if we are shut out anytime because of a strike,and we WILL keep continuing our coverage.

[Nick H]

Witness to what, Venkat?

re songs of a composer who dies in 17-something:

--- there is no copyright.

--- nobody can grant, issue or register a copyright because it doesn't exist.

--- any such claim and any such paper, certificate or whatever is null and void allready.

--- something which is null and void already cannot be annulled, just ignored.

(There may be a pedantic get out where previously undiscovered compositions are concerned. Just for the record. Doubt that it applies here)

So, if anybody is waving a piece of paper, it had better be signed by Thiagaraja, and even if it is it would have expired long, long ago.

Whether this 'copyfraud' or not I don't know, but there in the article is a pro lawyer using that word. It is certainly copywrong!

[rshankar]

So, Venkat, if the probalem is with the judicial system which has issued these stupid copyrights, what's the point in calling Youtube (which is only policing and enforcing stupid rulings from India) names?

I think we need to get all your supporters properly focused. The main target of all activities, whether it be venting some spleen, or, more useful exercises such as mapping out legal strategy, or plotting legislative action, should be the faulty Indian judicial system, and the aim of all activities should be, as VK pointed out, anulling/reversing these copyright rulings.

[parivadini]

So, if anybody is waving a piece of paper, it had better be signed by Thiagaraja, and even if it is it would have expired long, long ago.

LOL. The paper youtube requires is for their Content ID system,a government issued stationary is currently sufficient.



@shankar- you are bang on right about the YouTube reference as of now.
The copyright is given by a Copyright board which is under a Ministry of HRD.

Will definitely keep you all updated on this.
Cheers
Venkat

[vasanthakokilam]

Basically there are also quite a few composition that has been REALLY copyrighted. I can personally stand guarantee for it as a witness.

Venkat, to make sure we understand clearly, what you saw was piece of paper that says so and so is a copyright holder for a Thyagaraja composition ( and any recording )?

Who issued it? (Copyright board / Ministry of HRD?)
Who is it issued to?
What composition(s) are they?

is it possible to post a scanned copy of that document?

Just curious.

BTW, What is the amendment to the law you are referring to? ( and what are RTI reports and what is the significance of that to this issue? )

Sorry lot of questions, not many answers.

(If ministry of HRD is to blame, here is an out of the box thought for whatever it is worth. I see PM Narendra Modi tweets once in a while (about even mundane matters) but he seems to come across as someone who would be deeply offended by this himself. It is most probably his staff that sends out these tweets . Given his desire to reach out to the public directly, at least half duplex, I wonder if his office is any better at receiving and processing genuine complaints about his own ministry on such a culturally significant matter)

[parivadini]

is it possible to post a scanned copy of that document?

Only by Court of Law or RTI. Working on both. The claims are based on a workflow software,which is part of a website or Electronic Domain(Devices). We have long made all the images public by posting the screenshots.

BTW, What is the amendment to the law you are referring to? ( and what are RTI reports and what is the significance of that to this issue? )

The copyright act in India has been amended 2012,it never got through light of the parliament and lapsed.
RTI is the Right to Information mandates timely response to citizen requests for government information. It is an initiative taken by Department of Personnel and Training, Ministry of Personnel, Public Grievances and Pensions to provide a– RTI Portal Gateway to the citizens for quick search of information on the details of first Appellate Authorities,PIOs etc. amongst others, besides access to RTI related information / disclosures published on the web by various Public Authorities under the government of India as well as the State Governments.



[/Quote] PM Narendra Modi [/quote]
Baley besh, see only one definite opposition from vidwans as of now!

Feel free to ping.Cheers

Venkat

[Rsachi]

Since a lot of competent and interested folks have jumped into the fray, I will keep quiet.
Feel a bit vindicated that the moment Venkat told me about the You Tube flag, I drafted and sent out the petition which >thousand of rasikas and musicians have signed. Within the first few days, Venkat got a call from IPRS folks. So going to YT via change.org triggered the series of events and coverage thus far.

As I think I said repeatedly, getting the copyrights on compositions (except those held by vaggeyakaras themselves) vacated is a must in the interest of CM. That Venkat and folks are driving this effort is very promising.
Like Germany printed a postage stamp well before FIFA 2014 FINAL win, I shall concentrate on designing such a stamp/pennant which we can all proudly wear soon
By the way I heard that the commonly used portraits of the trinity done by Vid Rajam weren't copyrighted or monetised by him. A noble spirit indeed.

[Gamakam]

In Today's (Tamil) Hindu: http://tamil.thehindu.com/opinion/colum ... 269009.ece

[parivadini]

Performing Rights Societies do not copyright anything. They collect fees and enforce the rights of their members. They are not a copyright authority.

That is indeed correct.

[arasi]

Gamakam,
Thank you for the link.

'Lalitha Ram's article is going to be an eye opener for many readers who have not been reading about this continuing story at Rasikas.org. Great!

Thanks to Tamizh Hindu for publishing this to educate its readers about the ridiculousness of the situation. Thanks to Lalitha Ram for reaching out to the public with his writing in a crystal clear manner, in beautiful tamizh, with missionary zeal. Hats off to 'him'...