What if ...TMK were in charge of the Canteen!?

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 02 Jan 2015, 13:14

Foumites in TMK Music Love-Hate relationship,

I have a draft ready to post, the selected excerpts from his book, which can result in correct understanding of TMK. If interested, I would like to post it, tomorrow.

munirao2001

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 02 Jan 2015, 16:07

Beware..

you may be served with a legal notice

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 02 Jan 2015, 16:19

Forumites,

In absence of open discourse amongst the practitioners of Karnatic Music, our discussions here has become necessary and meaningful. Reading the criticisms posted, I have noted the criticisms in this thread, as given below:
1. Mr.V.Govindan. 1.1.Quality of TMK music-Makes music soul-less, simply intellectual wah-wah and titilation. 1.2. Hypocritical. 1.3. Not communicative. 1.4. Fundamentally wrong, irreligious music.1.5. Has little reverence to traditional concepts.
2. Mr.Harimau. 2.1. Egocentric. 2.2. Misbehavior. 2.3. Insulting.
3. Mr.K.V.Chellappa. 3.1. Insensitive and arrogant. 3.2. Offensive on belief systems. 3.3. Quality in his music due to change in structure or lack of it.
4. Mr.Ramamantra. 4.1. Insensitive to the established and expected form and content.
5. Sivaramakrishnan and Smt.Kamalamba (Pl.correct me, if I am wrong). Disorder, distaste and unhealthy.
I will post my excerpts from his book, Southern Music, A Karnatic Music story, if given permission by SriRSachi, who has started this topic.
Few other forumites like VKVSir also have voiced their concerns and criticisms in other topics related to TMK.

munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 02 Jan 2015, 16:30

purist
I expect no legal action for my action, as TMK has the copyright and if comes to know, TMK can understand the intent and is supportive.

munirao2001

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 02 Jan 2015, 17:42

Sir, please get the permission from the book publisher to reproduce excerpts. You may not like to deal with legal notices that unauthorised excerpts may attract.
Meanwhile please watch that YouTube video of which I shared a link.
For me it is easy to separate my reactions to the music and to the whims and controversies of this or any other musician.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 02 Jan 2015, 22:01

Since the thread is (or was originally) meant to be in good humor, allow me to summarize the last few years of this colourful saga

All that's missing is a referee.

But I think we have a few who signed up for that too.

PS : I need not say who's who up there.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Jan 2015, 22:49

Maybe they are not snarling ...but laughing!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Jan 2015, 23:56

Munirao,

I do not know the legal matters regarding excerpts but I see reviewers and commenters post verbatim excerpts from books. I wondered if the 'fair use' rules apply. I found this link: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/ ... 30100.html
If you follow those principles your excerpts can come under 'fair use'. Be conservative in verbatim excerpts but we do want to hear commentary/criticism of his work.

Please open a new thread with a title that reflects your main focus. This thread has already veered off in a few different directions and you content will not get the visibility.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 03 Jan 2015, 05:54

Book review: A Southern Music- The Karnatik Story...

http://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/revie ... ry-1984759

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday ... 809926.ece

A three pages review:

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/books/modern-classical

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 03 Jan 2015, 08:10

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Wow! A bit bitter and whiny, aren't we?

Bitter? About what? Whiny? I am only whining that we have large number of people with such low self-esteem that they put up with TMK's antics.

vasanthakokilam wrote:
I guess idiots of which domicile is his fan base will be known by your Asthika Samajam prediction.

That is not a prediction but a mathematical projection based on past observations.

vasanthakokilam wrote:
I remember hearing about this season ticket holder problem, especially the plight of the infirm. Do all sabhas with significant season ticket holders kowtow to his demands? The right response is for a Sabha to refuse to hold his concerts if they really want to stand by their members.

Well, after strong-arming the first sabha where he sang into making his concert a free-for-all fight to get a seat, Sri Krishn Gana Sabha quietly let in all ticket-holders first and then the empty seats were given out on a first-come-first-served basis. When TMK came to know about this, he is supposed to have informed other sabhas that he won't accept that. Narada Gana Sabha asked its season-ticket holders to obtain tokens a day in advance and then gave out tokens on a first-come-first-served basis. All token holders were admitted into the hall. Mylapore Fine Arts asked everyone to queue up in a similar fashion to get tokens.

In the Dec 2013 - Jan 2014 season, TMK was given a slot on Jan 1 at 7 pm. Everyone was asked to leave the auditorium after the Sadas and then all ticket-holders were let in. Empty seats were given out to those who didn't have patron tickets or season tickets or life member tickets. When asked about the contradiction, TMK is supposed to have said that this was a new year and his demand applied only to calendar year 2013.

vasanthakokilam wrote:
May be they can negotiate a socialistic answer: Separate line for the infirm, season ticket holder or not and they will be let in first. It is a good tactical move actually. If TMK refuses even that, then it is HIS PR problem.

All sabhas moved him to the morning slot this year which is free and not ticketed. Problem solved.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 03 Jan 2015, 08:14

I have the same right as TMK. He has views and expresses them even if it hurts others. (To start a concert with varnam is stupid). I have my views and express them. So far freedom of expression is not curbed constitutionally or by the administrators here.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 03 Jan 2015, 14:49

The NRIs are neither idiots nor fools....There are the back bone of rasika Forumites,,,,

The only thing they suffer is their Bloated EGO.... ...
But it is quite understandable...
But, what of their counter parts in India? ' I know everything ....not necessary to learn from you' attitude..Prone to criticize always..

Now what is wrong when he says to start varnam is stupid....When the question of his singing a virbhoni varnam for his RTP,

I had put the question at that time to Shri TM Krishna, directly in my mail to him.
See below:

Quote:
Sir

In the recent Music Academy concert you have introduced a new concept of singing a varnam (Viriboni in Biravi) after Ragam and Thanam.Is it a deviation from the set practice of Ariyakudi which you have stated will remain the basis of Kutchery music forever; even though some of us feel there is nothing wrong in this. You may find time to clarify.

Regards

Kailasam venkat-28-12 08

From:
TM Krishna ...

first thank you for directly asking me this question

there is nothing to clarify, yes this is definitely a deviation. i have used the varnam as the main item. many varnams contain the essence of the raga. varnam is magnificent compositional form like krithi, padam etc and deserves to be showcased too i believe and not used only to warm up voices.

its a habit ( or in tamizh vazhakam) to start a concert with a varnam. this was made popular by ariyakudi.

before that apparently carnatic concert hardly had any compositions in fact very very few. it was mainly ragam thanam pallavi. so was ariyakudi deviating from practise we may ask?

as far i see it all these are just interpretations of what each one considers a concert structure and is definitely variable. as long as we have the essence of ragas, thalam, compositions of all types and focus both on manodharma sangeetha and kalpitha sangeetha( composed music) we are fine.

regards

T.M.Krishna" UnQuote

I remember when I heard this clip, there were thunderous applause from the audiance...

Taking a Varnam as Pallavi he has not made any revolution or innovation...

I desire to share an anecdote relating to a RTP among many other anecdotes.
Quote.
Once, Tiger Varadachariar was performing a concert.
He took Mohana for RTP. After elaborately
dealing with Raaga Aalapana and Thanam, he was about to start the pallavi. The organizers suddenly brought a "Talai Baga" (turban) and placed it on his head.
He could not see the "Talai Baga", but, was keen to know whether it had decoration with Zari thread or an ordinary one.
He instantly composed a Pallavi and started singing much to the amusement of the audience.

Using the 'swaras' of Mohanam, the pallavi was as follows
"sa ri ga baa ga ichhchava....

There is no reason for one to get hurt on his views that starting all concerts only with Varnam is stupid..Rather enjoy..

kal · Post by **kal** » 03 Jan 2015, 16:56

Dear VK:
I'd like to add one point - my nephew, who is severely autistic, enjoys ONLY TMK's music, however much his parents tried to make him listen to others. He listens to music atleast for 2 hours every day for the last 10 years or so. He doesn't care about formats...

May be, as TMK gets older n wiser, he will restrain his talk / change his views etc., but that shouldn't prevent us from appreciating his high quality music.
kalpagam

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 03 Jan 2015, 17:24

Kamalamba Madam,

Your posting gives, unintentionally a wrong impression. Is the condition of autism is required to accept TMK manodharma music and changes? Should TMK has to become old and wiser to change his philosophy in Karnatic Music?

munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 03 Jan 2015, 17:31

vasanthakokilam
I shall not post the excerpts. Also if forumites are interested only, I shall open a new topic for rasikas.org members discourse on TMK' s Karnatic Music and its practices.

munirao2001

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 03 Jan 2015, 18:28

I happened to hear earlier the Bhiravi RTP Varnam...What a lovely piece! of music..divine music only..

On a subsequent occasion I heard that he rendered a ragamalika tanam in Hameerkalyani, Kalyani, Sahana, Bhairavi and Yamuna Kalyani
with out pallavi...I have not heard it....

We as rasikas should judge an Artist only by his performance only with out bias ...

What ever view others have, I am holding the view that he is the SUPER STAR OF Carnatic music..and I will not deviate from my view...

Let people write hundreds of pages about his arrogance etc.,

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 03 Jan 2015, 21:13

respected sir, he sang this in MA. few years ago.. I don't think there was a commercial release... if that's a pirated version, you may be in trouble for posting in a public forum that you heard the recording... please take care...

ramamantra · Post by **ramamantra** » 05 Jan 2015, 07:20

harimau wrote:
That is not a prediction but a mathematical projection based on past observations.

Yday I just saw the title of an article written by him on Indian muslims and didn't bother to read it. He is stretching it too far. The law of averages will catch up with him soon.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 05 Jan 2015, 09:00

Has it got anything to do with his performance...??

Total bias ...

He can write anything sensible or just non sense...

You are not a reviewer of his writing here in this forum...Keep it aside your reviews of his writing..

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 05 Jan 2015, 11:34

Ramamantra Sir
I am simply shocked. You have posted "Yday I just saw the title of an article written by him on Indian muslims and didn't bother to read it. He is stretching it too far." When you have chosen to ignore but chose to comment "He is stretching it too far". It is unfair.
Sir, I have read with the interest and attention it deserved. This is state of affairs commenced with the neglect and demand for a separate state, a terrible tragedy in human history following the man made partition and the mind set of sizable population of citizens suffering sense of insecurity deliberately created and perpetually continued by the people in power for the sake of power. This humanitarian problems and challenges have to end for sense of security, living and peaceful coexistence. TMK through this article has joined the voices of limited number of intellectuals calling for the change. TMK deserves praise and all the other silent suffering majority support to establish humanism over all the other issues.

munirao2001

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 05 Jan 2015, 15:57

I wonder whether this is the forum to discuss ideas of TMK other than on music. TMK belongs to the category of intellectuals who see things from a 'safe' secular angle, forgetting facts of history and current occurrences. In fact, the 'majority' feels insecure. I feel we should not continue discussions on this contentious issue here.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 05 Jan 2015, 16:37

Ladies and gentlemen, I feel the serious topic of TMK's open letter to Indian Muslims is not suitable for canteen conversation.
Please write here only items of relevance to the "serious" topic as in the title.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 05 Jan 2015, 17:04

ramamantra wrote: Yday I just saw the title of an article written by him on Indian muslims and didn't bother to read it. He is stretching it too far. The law of averages will catch up with him soon.

I have stopped reading that rag long ago. It should change its name to The Muslim.

Anyway, your post made me dig up yesterday's rag and read the article.

You should too. There was a great joke at the end. It was the Editor's note saying the opinions expressed were those of the author and not those of the newspaper.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Jan 2015, 02:09

I am only whining that we have large number of people with such low self-esteem that they put up with TMK's antics.

The NRIs ...The only thing they suffer is their Bloated EGO.... ...

If both harimau and v'kailasam are right, that is like matter and anti-matter. Watch out NRIs

#lighternote

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 06 Jan 2015, 05:41

harimau wrote: I have stopped reading that rag long ago. It should change its name to The Muslim.
There was a great joke at the end. It was the Editor's note saying the opinions expressed were those of the author and not those of the newspaper.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Jan 2015, 12:50

vasanthakokilam wrote: Watch out NRIs #lighternote

ohmygod, hashtags. I know somebody #who #now #writes #likethis. You have been warned. First Twitter spreads @s, then it spreads #s, then our brains implode.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 06 Jan 2015, 14:46

vk you quoting me out of context...

what I wrote was...

" The NRIs are neither idiots nor fools....There are the back bone of rasika Forumites,,,,

The only thing they suffer is their Bloated EGO.... ...
But it is quite understandable.....

devan · Post by **devan** » 06 Jan 2015, 15:59

The paper itself should be named The Muslim.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 06 Jan 2015, 16:29

Devan,

!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Jan 2015, 23:08

Nick H wrote:
vasanthakokilam wrote: Watch out NRIs #lighternote
ohmygod, hashtags. I know somebody #who #now #writes #likethis. You have been warned. First Twitter spreads @s, then it spreads #s, then our brains implode.

I know I know. I hate those things as well.

I find these hash tags useful to communicate context without cluttering the main part with a lot of words. So my claim is contrary to the clutter that these hashtags typically cause, if you use it for this purpose it actually reduces clutter. But coming up with a word to explain a whole lot of context is not easy.

This repurposing also originated in Twitter

It is sort of like how creole languages evolved. You need a constraint and that causes people to invent to live within that constraint. But out of that effort new things develop which do not have much to do with that constraint. The constraint here is the 140 character limit.

V'kailasam, I know. That was mostly in jest. Btw, does your contention of big ego of NRIs apply to all NRIs or NRIs who are members of this forum?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 07 Jan 2015, 08:33

I call it 'The Anti-Hindu'.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Jan 2015, 16:26

The word repurposing is almost as bad as hashtags. But hey, I guess you live in USA, and picking up bad habits is inevitable!

But lets leave the Twitter stuff to Twitter. Certainly I request not to be addressed as "@nick." That is not how I spell my name and never will be. "nick@..." will do very nicely for my email address

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Jan 2015, 21:31

hey, there is a wikipedia entry for 'repurposing', so it has to be good

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Jan 2015, 22:44

See? Picking up bad habits!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 08 Jan 2015, 01:26

vasanthakokilam wrote:hey, there is a wikipedia entry for 'repurposing', so it has to be good

As someone who uses this word several times a day, I second that! And isn't it the way (i.e., repurpose it to suit our needs) to keep a language alive, and not become a relic?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 08 Jan 2015, 09:02

Repurpose to my mind demands respect and honour.
I can repurpose the last remnant of humble toothpaste (in the Colgate tube I have squeezed the hell out of) as
Glue for an envelope
Polish for my copper kada
Error correction on a typed page
Stain hider on my office shirt cuff
Wall patch
Art material in School work
Post it glue...

Am I on the right track or should I repurpose my thoughts, gents?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Jan 2015, 11:27

That would depend on the use case.

eek.

kamalamba · Post by **kamalamba** » 08 Jan 2015, 12:47

I have not made any post in this thread, but somehow Kamalamba finds mention with words like distaste, disorder, unhealthy, etc.
Not sure where the confusion is from.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 08 Jan 2015, 19:20

Mohan..mis placed identity..

Shri Muni rao instead of referring to 'Kal'-Kalpagam referred as kamalambha in an earlier post...

Mods: why posts number is missing now..??

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Jan 2015, 17:20

How is repurposing related to recycling?

NRI-s, some with bloated egos, yes, just as some dEsis may also possess that quality? Surely, do you need to belong to a special group to be afflicted by that rather unsavory quality?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Jan 2015, 04:31

Arasi,
Suppose you receive a blouse piece in a wedding. You then send it as a gift to someone else = recycle.
Suppose you get a blouse piece as a gift at a wedding. And you blow your nose with it (kerchief) = repurpose.

Since pollution is less and currency is stronger abroad, you get a bigger ego and an accent as an NRI. But the disease has more intrinsic not external causes. A bloated ego is a replacement for true self-worth.

ramamantra · Post by **ramamantra** » 10 Jan 2015, 07:29

Rsachi wrote: Suppose you receive a blouse piece in a wedding. You then send it as a gift to someone else = recycle.
Suppose you get a blouse piece as a gift at a wedding. And you blow your nose with it (kerchief) = repurpose.

That's really so apt. Good one.

Rsachi wrote: Since pollution is less and currency is stronger abroad, you get a bigger ego and an accent as an NRI. But the disease has more intrinsic not external causes. A bloated ego is a replacement for true self-worth.

They sure have an endless appetite with their bloated egos. Earlier, people here were in awe. But now, nobody gives them a big deal. In fact, they've become the butt of all jokes at social interactions as in parties, get-togethers, weddings and so on, now even in movies. Their egos are now only in their heads, the impact here is fading fast, rather, over.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 10 Jan 2015, 07:49

"A bloated ego is a replacement for true self-worth." well said..

A person gets Rs 20,000 in India, gets 1000$ in a foreign country not necessarily US ...say middle east, 60,000 in Indian currency ..

He thinks that he is worth so much and forgets that the boosting is on account of the strength of currency...

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 10 Jan 2015, 09:45

A blouse piece used as kerchief is mispurposing. Before its (blouse piece) use as kerchief, restoring to its real purpose is 'repurposing'.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Jan 2015, 13:37

vgovindan wrote: mispurposing.

A lot of language gets "mispurposed," usually by those who found the MBA marketing courses more interesting than language studies and good literature.

In the end, creation of new words can be anything from ignorance to genius, and simple aesthetics has a lot to do with where the result lies. I rather like "mispurposed," although a greater purist than I could say that we already have misused.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Jan 2015, 16:34

Nick,
I am not a purist, but 'misused' sounds better to me. I'm thinking of the way 'user friendly' went. Now, we have a world filled with user friendly everything--even user friendly services!

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Jan 2015, 17:02

Repurpose as in Merriam Webster:
re·pur·pose\(ˌ)rē-ˈpər-pəs\
: to change (something) so that it can be used for a different purpose
Full Definition
transitive verb
: to give a new purpose or use to <repurpose the company's Web site> <repurpose the archived material>
First use: 1984

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 10 Jan 2015, 21:19

Amazing versatility of TMK. From kitchen to semantics! (CM also interspersed).

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Jan 2015, 00:24

In fact, they've become the butt of all jokes at social interactions as in parties,

I guess I am missing out on some good parties and humor. Any good NRI jokes?

NRI's sheen or the lack of it is the prerogative of the RI. If NRIs have lost the sheen, it shows the RIs are gaining the much required self-confidence at last and that is a very good thing.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Jan 2015, 00:29

if thou had thy way, we will be speaking liketh this today
don't repurpose 'r regift, those art bad influences from those darn yankees
master, the usage 'r the act, which doeth thou refereth to?
you goeth findeth out. dont't maketh me enchafed