Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
arasi
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by arasi »

இ) ராவி இழைத்த தமிழ் உம்முடையது--அந்த‌
(இ)ரம்ப ராவெல்லாம் உமக்கு சரி வருமா? :)

(i) rAvi izaitha tamizh ummuDaiyadu.
(i) ramba rAvellAm umakku sari varumA?

Kokilam,
Agree most part with you, but cha (ca, in sanskrit) is/was not a brahmins-alone sound.
In chollunga! for instance. chauriyamA pOy vAnga! chandaile enna vAnginINga? calliyam paNRAne, piLLe??

sh is as in usha, and as hush and english in english. S as in SyAmalA. Have I got it right?

We need Nick here to say his say ;)

shankarank
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by shankarank »

umakkuccari varumA ?

Did I catch it correct? It has to be a beginning word for sari!

sankark
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by sankark »

arasi wrote: Agree most part with you, but cha (ca, in sanskrit) is/was not a brahmins-alone sound.
In chollunga! for instance. chauriyamA pOy vAnga! chandaile enna vAnginINga? calliyam paNRAne, piLLe??

sh is as in usha, and as hush and english in english. S as in SyAmalA. Have I got it right?
chollunga and chauriyamA and chandai - these aren''t native tamil speaker's way or pronouncing. it is more sollunga and souriyamA and sandhai. ch versions could of brahminical (or some other group, there is a funny anecdote of dEham changing to dREham, of people trying to sanskritise the already sanskrit dEham) origin. I mean at the start of the word unless preceded by another word causing oRRu migal (doubling of the consonant) & hence changing to ch.

The other pronunciation - shol - indeed actually (lot of singers do that shol instead of sol) grates on ones ears.

I am curious about these aspirated sounds in the first place. They look an artificial construct consciously practiced rather than natural (ka ga vs kha gha) way of producing sounds, notwithstanding the ability of human voice production physiology to produce them. Say has there been any study where a child without any external influences and conditioning producing these aspirated constructs (ka ga vs kha gha or their variations).

kvchellappa
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by kvchellappa »

Samskrtham is a sophisticated, not natural language. But, it has a scientific structure. Even zha could be artificial.

sureshvv
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by sureshvv »

For Arabic & Urdu speakers, Kha seems pretty natural. So not sure if this dichotomy exists.

arasi
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by arasi »

True--what in tamizh we say nAp pazakkam (practice). 'kha'bar is so easily said--also the subtle 'g' as in bagair. Mohd Rafi's singing, a good indicator, as we grew up.

One thing we ancient 'foreigners' find is the use of sa in place of other variations. It has become rampant now. I can't but think of the television speak as the source--and the movies too. More from television because of the exposure to it.

Add to it the stilted way in which the young speak tamizh (reminds me of the old anglo-indian way of speaking tamizh). It has no flow, which is one of the beauties of the language. I bet in the villages you can still hear it.

Some point out the consonants-filled tamizh speak. Yet, it has a flow, which is all but lost because of taminglish and lack of paying attention to speaking one's own language well...

Harsh, eh? :)

sureshvv
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by sureshvv »

FM Radio is the worst among the culprits

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arasi, I have definitely heard 'chollungo' and 'chandai' (brahmin only or otherwise ) but chauriyamA is so unfamiliar to me. May be not be in the nAp pazakkam of Tanjore tamil speakers.

sankark
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by sankark »

sureshvv, arasi - speakers of samskrtam or urdu or arabic or tamil would be invariably influenced by those that speak it (or the specific dialect) around them and so easily picked up and feel that natural.

I am wondering, if one were to see a language form and evolve, without a language designer designing it or influencing it, would kha/gha and the ilk, zha and tamil n/l variances naturally arrive in the phonetics or be artificially created/introduced.

vk - pure conjecture: the ch pronunciations could be of kerala iyer origins, palakkad or tvm.

Govindaswamy
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by Govindaswamy »

The discussion in this thread started with Suresh vv's comment ' Some words like "Bhakthi" & "bandham" were pronounced as if they were sanskrit words.' He has used the title aspirating consonants. Bhakthi and bandham are sanskrit words borrowed by Tamil without any change (i.e) tadhsamam. Hence these have to be pronounced as in the original language. The problem of pronouncing words of other Indian languages in Tamil arises because Tamil pronunciation is very much different. All Indian languages have four variants of the hard consonants (vallinam). (e.g) ka, kha, ga, gha etc. Telugu has six variants of cha, (i.e) cha, tcha, CHa, ja, dja, JHa, Tamil has only one letter each for ka, cha, ta, tha and pa. However each of these hard consonants takes the softest option as explained below. In the beginning of a word these sound as ka, ta, tha and, pa. In the middle and end of a word these become ga, da, dha and ba. After the corresponding nasal consonants also these sound as above. Other combinations as mpa, mpha,and mbha are not allowed. cha at present is mostly pronounced as sa only. I feel that this is n o longer a hard consonant (vallinam). There is no aspirated soundat all in Tamil.(e.g) kha and gha etc. The question of aspirating consonants in Tamil does not arise. It may also be noted that no word can start with a consonant and two or more differnt consonants can not come together in Tamil. The above features make Tami lthe softest sounding Indian language.
We can draw the conclusion from the above that Tamil is probably the oldest language of India which is still a living one. The other languages which came later have sounds which require more effort to produce, particularly the aspirated guttural sounds.
However Tamilians find it very difficult to correctly pronounce the sounds of other languages because Tamil does not have those sounds.
Govindaswamy

sureshvv
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote:Here MS stresses bha, dhi and it does not sound jarring:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUXBMhuGVhQ

Normally, MS does that.
Yes. This is really the "gold" standard.

My fear is that these lyrics are now being practiced using the devanagari script & while this may be advantageous in many situations, it might stunt the pronunciation for Tamil kritis.
arasi wrote: Add to it the stilted way in which the young speak tamizh
Yep. Is this happening in CM also?

sankark
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by sankark »

Govindaswamy wrote:In the beginning of a word these sound as ka, ta, tha and, pa. In the middle and end of a word these become ga, da, dha and ba. After the corresponding nasal consonants also these sound as above.
Is that strictly so? Take பம்பரம் for example. To my knowledge, I have never pronounced/heard it pronounced as pamparam, it is bambaram. same for ca, even though it is nominally ch, many words in tamil start with the sa sound siriyadhu, sinam, sindhanai, sikkal, siRuvan, etc. So does pa and ca have some kind of exception?

kvchellappa
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by kvchellappa »

Is bambaram Tamizh word? As far as I know, no Tamizh word begins with ba. With 'm' or 'n' the ba sound is natural in the middle.

arasi
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by arasi »

pamparam would sound pompous! Yes, we never hear that! Just making a point that flow in a word is what we see here.

That's how shortening of words takes place too, according to the way one is used to speaking one's own language. To the english, tri-van-drum seemed convenient, and to the locals, it's tiruvandrum . tillikkENi for tiruvallikkENi (not Triplicane) and so on.

In general, flowing together of words is something desired in speech in all languages, it seems.That's why the modern media tamizh is grating to the ears. Stilted it is, and let me try and give you an example. Even a single word like varIngLA? a continues flow of a word, now I hear as va-rIng-LA?

I think that when we speak a language, we should try to think in that language if we can, and also think that we are a native speaker (we could as well be :) ). Intonation is another aspect we have to try and capture!

More so with music (with words)! However well-sung, if that flow in the expression of what the words are trying to convey is lacking, we soon realize what we are missing...

sankark
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by sankark »

http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/p ... 7.tamillex & http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/a ... rchhws=yes

interestingly the pronunciation is given as pamparam & a totally unrelated meaning; a reference to kamba rAmAyanam - so it is not new in tamil.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by vasanthakokilam »

sankark, so you really are used to saying it as bambaram? My pazhakkam is 'pambaram'.
My fear is that these lyrics are now being practiced using the devanagari script & while this may be advantageous in many situations, it might stunt the pronunciation for Tamil kritis.
Yep. While it helps enormously in general, they have to contextually tweak a sound or two so the native tamil ear does not find it odd.

A case in point is the word for Cow. I hear Aruna Sairam and R&G pronounce 'kanindu varum pasu pOl', as 'pashu' and not pasu as we would natively ( and correctly ;) ) say it. I agree in Sanskrit it is indeed pashu but in tamil it is pasu. ( tadbhavam?).

I wonder if it is a side effect of them writing tamil compositions in Devanagari.

sankark
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by sankark »

vk - just one more, exactly one more data point in your favor, it seems pambaram and not bambaram.
vasanthakokilam wrote: A case in point is the word for Cow. I hear Aruna Sairam and R&G pronounce 'kanindu varum pasu pOl', as 'pashu' and not pasu as we would natively ( and correctly ;) ) say it. I agree in Sanskrit it is indeed pashu but in tamil it is pasu. ( tadbhavam?).
I don't think so. pasu in tamil is young cow specifically and not just any animal, that would be mAkkaL. Ain't sanskrit pashu any animal in general and not just a young cow? So this could be two totally unrelated words that sound similar but are being confused to being similar/derived.

PS: pashu (along with shol) is another pet peeve ;)
Last edited by sankark on 04 Oct 2016, 10:02, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by arasi »

andap pambarathukku nAN pAmbO?

rshankar
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by rshankar »

arasi wrote:andap pambarathukku nAN pAmbO?
pambaramAi ADum pAmbO?

kvchellappa
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by kvchellappa »

पशु is both cattle (specific) and animal (general). It is a moot point whether the word is independent in the two related languages.
A number of singers (MS, DKP, Gayathri Girish, etc.) retain the श, स difference even in Tamizh songs.

RSR
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by RSR »

For convenience, I will refer to ka, kha, ga, and gha .(1,2,3,4)
In Thamizh language, no word can begin with ga. ( gha etc are not in Thamizh language).
if ka is preceded by n, it is pronounced as ga. ( ex) vangam though there is no letter for ga.(ganapathi..no)
similarly, pa preceded by m, becomes ba. ( 'bayam' -no) (kamban-ok)
cha preceded by n , becomes ja . ( 'jaanaki', 'janakan' -no) (panjam-famine-ok)
tha ,, n, ,, dha ( 'dhaanam' -no) (vandhaan-came-ok)

how about 'maadam'? 'maadam' used by Aandaal herself? 'thoomani maadatthu '
But Aandaal had used a number of sanskrit words.
If we want to avoid all non-tamil pronounced words, we may as well take to Instrumental music.!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My suggestion is that all the students in Thmizhnaadu should be taught Telugu, Kannada , Samskrutham, and Hindi if not Bengali too. Sabapathikku is not strictly tamil word because it cannot begin with 'sa'. nor 'samaanam' aakuma ?
Leave alone aspirating... cannot even mention soft versions.

vgovindan
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by vgovindan »

RSR,
There are three sets of words - Tamil words - tatsama (தற்சமம்) - tatbhava - (தற்பவம்).

The rules you mentioned apply only Tamil words and not to tatsama and tatbhava - that is words derived (mainly) from Sanskrit. For example -

ganapathi is tatsama because it follows the rules of Tamil grammar excepting the initial letter. Therefore it will pronounced as 'ga' and not 'ka'.

There are different set of rules even for pure Tamil words.

'ka' appearing in the beginning will be pronounced as 'ka' only. But if it appears in the middle - even without 'ng', it will be pronounced as 'ga' only - for example - pagaivan (பகைவன்) as 'ga' only.

'ca' appearing in the beginning of the word is pronounced as 'sa' - for example - sirippu - no one pronounces as cirippu.

'Ta' cannot appear as initial letter of a word in Tamil - Therefore it will be preceded by (mostly) 'i' (இ)
Similarly 'ra' 's' cannot appear as initial letters of a word, Therefore it will be preceded by 'i' (இ)

There are two sets of usage - grammatical and vogue. (இலக்கணம் - வழக்கு) Let us not put Tamil in a straight-jacket. This is applicable to every language. Probably Sanskrit is an exception where you pronounce as you spell it. That is why it has been accepted as medium for translation and transliteration purposes for AI

kvchellappa
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by kvchellappa »

It beats me why if ga in ganapathi is soft as in Samskrtam, ghanam cannot be hard as well as it is also tatsamam.

RSR
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by RSR »

vgovindan .Sir. What you say is true because Thamizh and Sanskrit have been interacting over 2000 years. but I am talking about strict thamizh grammar. Not as it is in vogue but as it should be according to rules laid down by Tholkappiyar. ,'vadasol' 'dhisaichchil' etc. Writing Raman as Iraman and rushi as 'irudi' ..pure horror. .. Vaiyapurippillai had lot of trouble with tamil purists like Karmrgak konar in those years. . All that I am suggesting is that we must introduce special letters for ga, cha, da, dha, ba . so that we can really and easily transliterate from other indian languages and even from English. ..To go one step further, we must devise some method to write words like cat, rat, drag, ( the a as sounded here is a specialty of English, and multiple compund-consonants , (EX) FRANKLY , the very life of the language which makes it sound crisp and stylish . And a method for accent. .. Kindly do not mistake me as a thamizh purist or anti thamizh. English words should be written as they are . (ex) examination . not in translated form as Thaervu

kvchellappa
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by kvchellappa »

G H Vallins in 'Good English';
".. the language is living and constantly changing, so that any formalised record of its accidence and syntax is bound to be, in some measure, out of date."
"We are dealing with usage; and the very term usage implies 'custom' and 'habit', those very constructions in language which in one generation, or even by one class of people, are considered to be wrong, may by the next generation, or another class of people, be judged to be right."
English is a very phonetics-averse language, and Bernard Shaw suggested more letters. No one took him seriously (maybe on any issue!).
In Tamizh also, there were attempts to rationalise, but it did not catch on. A few minor changes have come about like லை.

arasi
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by arasi »

லை
...........

கலையில் எத்தனை கவலைகள்! நுண்-
கலைகளவை ஏதானாலும்! மொழியெனும்
விலை மதிக்க இயலா நம் தமிழிலுமே!

சொல்வதைப் புரியும்ப‌டி சொல்வதும்,
எல்லோர்க்கும் எளிமையாக்குவதும்.
வல்லமையோடு வழி புகல்வதுமாயின்--

அதுவே நல் மொழி! பெயர் பெயராய்
அதிரசம் முதல் ஆப்பம் வரை பண்டம்
பதினாயிரம் புகழ்ந்திகழ்ந்தாலும்--

பழம் மொழியினழகுக்கு மேலும்
ஆழம் கூட்டும் புதிய சொற்களும்
வழக்கில் வந்தால், அதுவே விருந்து :)

lai

kalaiyil ethanai kavalaigaL! nuN
kalaigaLavai EdAnAlum! mozhiyenum
vilai madikkath thagA nam thamizilumE!

solvadaip puriyumpaDi solvadum,
ellOrkkum eLimaiyAkkuvadum,
vallamaiyODu vazhi pugalvadumAyin--

aduvE nal mozhi!peyar peyarAi
adirasam mudal Appam varai
padinAyiram pugazhndigazhndAlum

pazham mozhiyinazhagukku mElum
Azham kUTTum pudiya soRkaLum
vazhakkil vandAl, aduvE virundu :)
Last edited by arasi on 22 Oct 2016, 19:53, edited 1 time in total.

kvchellappa
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by kvchellappa »

If a beautiful poem is triggered by லை itself, what cannot 'truth' inspire? I லைk it.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

kvchellappa wrote:... A few minor changes have come about like லை.
This is how it was written initially. Subsequently to facilitate easy reading instead of லை, it was written as 2ல. Now, we have gone back to the original style.

Incidentally, when Tamil scripts were changed from vattezhuthu, Nagari tools were adopted for creating Tamil consonants !

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Awesome Arasi.

arasi
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by arasi »

Thanks, Kokilam, Thenpanan, Govindan, PB and Chellappa.

KVC,
Your trigger word for the poem is not a lie (poy in english). You mention truth as well in your post!

RSR
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by RSR »

-> arasi madam ... excuse me for the discordant note.. I was upbraided recently for posting in thamizh. and asked to post in the allotted section for languages. .. Though this is a serious discussion on grammar features, it is not enough if we give tamil, english transliteration but we should also give english translation for people who don't know tamil. That applies to all language posts be it kannada, telugu, malayalam ,sanskrit or hindi. .Though I am a tamilian, I am just requesting you to apply the forum rules uniformly to all. ... ( the solution perhaps may be to post your poem in tamil section and ask the readers to see that)... If a post is made in hindiand transliteration is given in English, a reader who has absolutely no familiarity with Hindi, will not understand anything from the transliteration.

arasi
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by arasi »

RSR,
The poem is only incidental, and transliteration along with it is enough, I think. If anyone asks for it, then it can be given, I suppose.

Govindaswamy
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by Govindaswamy »

This discussion started with the incorrect pronunciation of non Tamil words by Tamilians. The members have given examples of such words. Tamil being the oldest classical language , still living ( Incidentally Telugu is my mother tongue) drastically differs from the other Indian languages because of the following aspects 1. No aspirated and guttural letters as kha, gha, cha, jha, Th, Dh, th, dh (Transliteration as per Modified Harvard-Kyoto (HK) Convention). 2. ka, ta and pa become ga, da and ba in the middle and end of words and after the corresponding nasal consonants. (e.g) magan, kadavu, tambi. and not makan, katavu, and tampi. 3. No word can start with a consonant. 4. Two or more different consonants can not come together with a very few exceptions. (e.g) kcha, kTa, ktha kpa, kma, kra, kla etc. 5. Words can start only with 10 consonants. No words can start with Ta, Na, la, La, zha, ra, Ra.
It may be noted that these rules mean that only sounds requiring minimum effort are in use.
Any Tamilian using words of other languages applies the above rules unless he knows the full form of the borrowed word.
RVR has raised the question of transliteration. Our ancestors had created a script called Tamil Grantham/ Pallava Grantham in 6 th /7th Century A.D. only for the purpose of writing Sanskrit. Nagari script of North India was also created at this time. Grantha became vaTTezhththu and MalayALam script. If Tamilians want to transliterate other languages they have to probably reaqdopt Grantham script. Otherwise they have to continue totally isolated.

RSR
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by RSR »

#83 Govindaswamy..-> Thank you Sir. To the point and precise. I hope that you can read Thamizh. Permit me to share this article on MS and Grantha Lipi . ... (Rajendran is son of Kalki. and Vijaya , younger sister of Radha Viswanathan,,,). https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... miniscence
( needs correcting the words in one or two places..typos)
"பஞ்சாங்கத்தைப் படித்தே தீருவது” என்று கையில் வாங்கியதும் பிாித்தேன். பிாித்த பக்கத்தில் எனக்குப் புாியாத லிபியில் ஏதோ எழுதப்பட்டிருந்தது!“இது என்ன, கிரந்த எழுத்தா?” என்று கணேச சாஸ்திாிகளைக் கேட்டேன். “ஆமாம்” என்றார். “கொஞ் சம் படிங்களேன், கேட் போம்” என்றேன். அவர் சில வாிகள் படித்து நிறுத்தி னார்.“அம்மாவுக்கு கிரந்த எழுத்து நன்றாகப் படிக்கவும் எழுதவும் தாிெயும்” என்றாள் விஜயா.
“நிஜமாகவா?” என்று நான் ஆச்சர் யத்துடன் அவளைப் பார்த்தேன். ‘எம்.எஸ். அம்மா பற்றி தாிெந்து கொள்ள வேண்டி யது இன்னும் எவ்வளவோ இருக்கிறது போலிருக்கே’ என்று தோன்றியது “எப் போது கற்றுக் கொண்டாள்?”“எப்போது, யாாிடம் என்பதெல்லாம் தாிெயாது. சிறுமியாக மதுரை யில் இருந்த போதே எழுதப் படிக்க பழகி இருக்கிறாள்.”
... Not a translation.. Rajendran tried to read the 'Panjangam'. but found the page containing some unknown script. He asked Ganesa Sastrikal, if it was Grnatha Lipi. The Sartikal read a few lines. Vijaya intervened saying' Amma knew to read and write Grantha lipi very well' . Rajendran was in wonder. and 'Really!' felt that there were many things to be learned about MS Amma'. and asked when did she learn.
Vijaya replied. ' I dont know when and how but she learned it in tender childhood itself' "
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2) here follows an excerpt from MS-Rminiscences as told by herdelf ' by Gowri. ( being translated now in tamil by a friend , will be hopefully ready soon).. "One day an old man walked down the street and passed me by. He wore a saffron dhoti and ash marks on forehead and arms, a rudraksha round his neck. He carried a bronze jug, the kamandala. I don’t know why, but I liked him on sight. He looked pious and kind-hearted. 1 continued to see him everyday after that—fresh from his bath, with the same sweet smile for me.
One day he stopped. ‘Child, I want to teach you. Will you learn?’ he asked. I nodded happily. He promptly sat down on the doorstep. He closed his eyes, folded his hands (I did the same) and began with a shloka,’ Ghrita guda payasam
What do you think he taught me? Not Sanskrit, the language of the scriptures. Not Tamil, my mother tongue. He taught me a script called Grantha—so old that nobody uses it anymore. You can find it only in old books, and on the walls of temples. Or on copper plates which were used in olden days to keep accounts and records!
My family watched these ‘classes’ with astonishment. Perhaps they were amused by this white-haired man teaching a tiny tot like me. But no one stopped us. In those days, old and learned persons were respected, even if they were poor wandering souls. But Vadiva(ms-sister) and Sakti(ms-brother) found it impossible not to laugh when they saw him. They teased me dreadfully. Sakti started referring to him as ‘Old dhritakula payasam’, after the funny sounding prayer he recited each day. But we continued our classes till the old man went back to Benares, from where he had come south on a pilgrimage. That is how an old man whose name I never knew, became my first guru, and Grantha the first script I learnt!
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(translation by Nithya-Arunan) "அப்படியொரு நாளில் அத்தெரு வழியே வந்த பெரியவர் ஒருவர் என்னைக் கடந்து சென்றார். அவர் காவி உடை தரித்தும், நெற்றியிலும் கைகளிலும் திருநீறுப் பட்டையிட்டும், கழுத்தில் ருத்திராட்சை மாலையணிந்தும் தோற்றமளித்தார். அவர் கைகளில் கமண்டலமும், தண்டமும் இருந்தன. ஏனென்று அறியவில்லை, முதல் பார்வையிலேயே அவர் மீது மரியாதை உண்டானது. பக்தியும், கருணையும் அவரில் குடிகொண்டிருந்தது. அன்றிலிருந்து ஒவ்வொரு நாளும் அவர் குளித்துத் திரும்புகையில் கனிவான புன்னகையுடன் என்னைக் கடந்து சென்றார். ஒருநாள் சற்றே நின்ற அவர், "குழந்தாய்! உன்க்கு கற்பிக்க விழைகிறேன், உன் விருப்பமென்ன?" என வினவினார். நான் மகிழ்வுடன் சம்மதித்தேன். உடனே அவர் வாசற்படியில் கைகளை மடித்து, கண்களை மூடி அமர்ந்து, "ஜிஹரித குட பயசம்..." எனும் மந்திரத்தை உச்சரிக்கத் தொடங்கினார். நானும் அவரைப் பின்தொடர்ந்து அவ்வாறே செய்யலானேன்.

அவர் என்னக்கு கற்பித்தது என்னவென்று அறிவீர்களா? வேதங்களின் மொழியான samskrutham அல்ல! நம் தாய் மொழியான தமிழும் அல்ல! அவர் எனக்கு கற்பித்தது grantham எனப்படும் மிகப் பழமையான, இன்று நடைமுறையில் மறைந்துபோன குறிப்பு மொழி! மிகப்பழம் புத்தகங்களிலும், கோவில் கல்வெட்டுகளிலும் மட்டுமே இன்று அவற்றை உங்களால் காண முடியும். இல்லையேல் பண்டைய காலங்களில் கணக்கெழுத பயன்படுத்திய செப்புப் பட்டயங்களில் காணக்கிடைக்கலாம். என் குடும்பத்தினர் இந்நிகழ்வுகளை மிகுந்த ஆச்சரியத்தோடு கவனித்தனர். சொல்லப்போனால் அவ்வயோதிகர் எனைப் போன்றதொரு சின்னஞ் சிரியாளுக்கு கற்பித்தமை அவர்களுக்கு வேடிக்கையாய் இருந்தது. இருப்பினும் எவரும் எங்களைத் தடுக்க முற்படவில்லை. அந்த நாட்களில், வயதில் முதிர்ந்த கற்றறிந்த சான்றோர்கள், ஏழ்மையில் உழன்றிருந்தாலும் நன்மதிப்பும் மரியாதையும் பெற்றிருந்தனர். ஆனாலும், அவரைப் பார்க்கும் பொழுதெல்லாம் வடிவு மற்றும் சக்தியால் சிரிப்பை கட்டுப்படுத்த முடியவில்லை. அவர்களிருவரும் என்னை ஏளனம் செய்யலானார்கள். ஒவ்வொரு நாளும் பிரார்த்தனையில் ஓதும் பொழுதும் அவர் எழுப்பும் விசித்திர ஒலியை கேலிசெய்யும் வகையில் சக்தி அவரை "பழைய திரிதகுல பயசம்" என அழைக்கத் தொடங்கினான். இருந்தபோதிலும், அவர் மீண்டும் பனாரஸ் திரும்பும் வரை எங்கள் வகுப்புகள் தடையின்றி தொடர்ந்தன. இவ்வாறே பெயர் அறியா அப்பெரியவர் என் முதல் ஆசான் ஆனார். மேலும் க்ரந்தம் நான் கற்றறிந்த முதல் மொழியானது."
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May be of interest ( this is a draft.. kindly ignore minor typos)

kvchellappa
Posts: 3637
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by kvchellappa »

Nice, but must be in MS status.

Govindaswamy
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Joined: 21 Feb 2010, 06:55

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by Govindaswamy »

RSR I studied Tamizh upto Intermediate class in 1948 -50. I can read the scripts of the other three Dravidian languages. I can understand and speak in Kannada also. I understand MalyALam though I can not speak fluently. I have studied Comparative Grammar of Dravidian languages. I can raed (Deva) Nagari script and can speak Hindi. I can read and understand Bengali.
I would not have indulged in such bragging but for your asking a specific question whether I could read Tamizh. When I quoted the rules of Tamizh grammar you could have guessed that I have some knowledge of Tamizh.
I would like to add a few items to my earlier posting. In TolkAppiyam chapter nUlmarabu gives details of which consonants can follow which other. The term mayakkam is used to denote changes in pronunciation of letters. So many other grammar books had been written afterwards. nannUl is the one which is mostly followed at present.
The only point that I wanted to make was that all Indian languages have adopted the alphabetical system of Sanskrit except Tamizh. However Sanskrit and other North Indian languages do not have short vowels e and o(எ ஒ). They consider ஐ and ஔ as dipthongs and pronounce them as ayi and au (அயி/அய், அவு/அவ்). They do not have two variations na ந and ன and three variations of la ல, ள, and ழ. Hence they can not correctly speak Tamizh or malayALam.
If Tamilians want to correctly pronounce the sounds of other Indian languages they have to learn Grantha script. This can never happen as there is an agitation against introduction of Sanskrit in CBSE school. 75 years ago Sanskrit was taught in Tamilnadu schools.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3637
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by kvchellappa »

We feel proud of you, Sri Govindaswamy, as well as of Sri Pasupathy, for such lively interest in Tamizh and contributing valuable info, which some like me, are not aware of. I read your posts avidly.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Though not directly related to this topic, since we are talking scripts, few points here.

1) Our forefathers of > 2000 years back were quite suspicious of written script. They were essentially fearful of the kinds of entropy ( information loss ) that gets introduced when you transcribe something. Had there been audio recording technology in ancient times, there is a theory that writing itself would not have evolved. Imagine sending a message, not in a written scroll carried by a messenger from one kingdom to the other, but a thumb drive of recorded message :) why do we need scripts and writing. Why adopt a more entropy inducing method when a more information preserving method exists? So goes the theory. But whatever that contra factual analysis is, our ancients really did not believe in writing. In fact, when Megasthenes wrote 'there were no written laws in India', of course he did not mean Maurya kingdom was lawless. We are told Vedas were never written down. And that was the case in general in India, not just limited to the fear of messing up the divine words through entropy inducing written form. That is not due to any lack of intelligence in coming up with a script but they doubted if the actual sounds of the language can be transcribed properly by any script, and once you have a script, people will follow that blindly there by memorializing distortions and error propagation for ever.

To understand their fear and suspicion and relate to it, consider our own suspicion of writing down gamakas and in general writing down notations. The suspicion is only confirmed when you give a piece of notation of gamakas to someone and ask them to play it and how badly it comes out. Imagine the horror if such written form is the only way to have propagated the music across centuries ( of course, this is not to demean the use of written notations of music, especially in modern times when they are accompanied by recordings, they are immensely useful )

2) But sooner or later, they realized that one needed scripts for certain applications. At that time, mainly it was for posterity and permanence wherever required. A lot of that use is seen in stone inscriptions, recording who the king was, what he was about etc. In other places, it was actually to record property transfers, what was gifted to whom etc. Such things invariably required a script of some kind. Even when such scripts were there, they were used in very limited fashion, again because they were quite suspicious of the 'information loss' they introduce. As the discussion in this thread shows, we are still arguing that point and pretty much agreeing on the limitations of scripts that they were suspicious of. They did their best in evolving a script that captured the sounds heard in their regions but all bets were off when they tried to write down what a visitor from a distant kingdom spoke in their royal courts.

3) One of the first attempts at script invention was Brahmi ( not the first one of course but the progenitor of Indian scripts). It is a thing of beauty and simplicity. It is too bad our ancestors who came after them screwed it up so badly by introducing so much complexity. They had their reasons. When writing moved from Stones to Palm leaves, straight lines and sharp corners were causing issues for writing on them where they were perfectly the right method for stones. But once you have curvature, the possibilities are end less.

Constraints cause restraints and only restraints cause unique architectures. Such architectures and systems evolved out of heavy constraints rather than abundance are typically simple, easy and beautiful. But once curved lines were introduced, there were a lot more possibilities which introduced the complexity and mutual incomprehensibility of written scripts. Not that curves are ugly, no definitely not, but such things add to the complexity whose aesthetics are typically reserved for art forms. Simplicity has its place, so does necessary complexity.

Brahmi was not without curved lines but they resorted to it once they ran out of straight lines ;)

Consider this example of how beautiful and simple the Brahmi script is. All of us should learn this, it is so easy.
Image

For 'ka', they took the + sign and methodically added ornamentations to it for various consonant+vowel combinations. Similarly for 'la'. The ornamentations are consistent across consonants. I would like to shake their hands for keeping it simple if only I can meet them ;) May be their DNA is in each one of us. Later scripts including our own current ones tried to follow that methodology but with varying levels of success.

If you stare at it hard, you will realize how that + sign has become 'ka' of various languages through complications introduced over time. Sure, they could not write the darn sharp cornors on leaves but we have come a long way from that simple structure but we are stuck with all the complexity introduced to solve a problem that does not exist today

shankarank
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by shankarank »

Govindaswamy wrote:If Tamilians want to correctly pronounce the sounds of other Indian languages they have to learn Grantha script. This can never happen as there is an agitation against introduction of Sanskrit in CBSE school. 75 years ago Sanskrit was taught in Tamilnadu schools.
Just returned from the conference of kaRya kaRtAs of Samskrita Bharati held in Dallas - as an observer ;) . A gentleman named Sri Padma Kumar - a full time volunteer for this organization told me they have camps running all the way into Madurai tamizh manRam and he is heartened by the response. Chennai apparently is even more responsive and this image that samskrit is brahmaNa bhasha is changing.

May be the buzz about the new translation engines being based on pANiNi grammar is evoking all the interest.

samskrita dvAra Gita, Gita dvAra samskritam. No English in the picture. They use props and expressions and don't start with all vibhaktis. Mahabharata is after all a tale of all different people not just Brahmans.

I have also heard that Noam Chomsky before he wrote the universal grammar work ( most cited after Holy Bible and Shakespeare) did read the German translation of pANiNi - an example of context free grammar.

I expressed the view that all the peninsular languages ( Dravidan ) have so much Samskriti in them ( e.g. the rAmAyaNams, and Bharatams in Tamil , telugu etc.) - the respective language associations are not going to care about those. They only center around the respective movie cult. It is left to Samskrita Bharati to care about them also.

In fact it is time kamba rAmAyaNam and Villi bhAratam are translated into Sanskrit - with bhavArtha ( another term I heard ) of Tamizh. New Sanskrit words must be coined to achieve this.

VK! - the written text will not convey that - Padma Kumar made this statement that there is no dictionary in Sanskrit. A dictionary cannot convey bhavArtha!! Bhavam can change with times also - and that is an organic evolution of language - leading into multiple meanings and vyAkyAnas.

Now I want to clarify what I mean by Samskriti. That is not the same as Sankritism - a pejorative use by the Left. ChemmozhiyAm tamizh mozhi. So tamizh has it's own sense of well formedness!! So do other languages.

In that sense - if people want to find a better name for Carnatic music ( which is colonial in origin) - the term sanskrita sangItam, chennisai ( in Tamizh) are better terms. Bharatiya Sangeeth is too late ( due to split with HM) and Shastriya Sangeeth is absolutely disastrous as grammar is possible only if samskriti is there to begin with - in fact that is completely not in the Spirit of Indianness which is not about, something written at some point frozen at that point!!
Last edited by shankarank on 24 Oct 2016, 09:52, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by shankarank »

Sanskrit was taught 25 years back in private schools run by trusts which are not Christian missionaries ( may be they taught them too!!). It was a favorite subject in 11/12th grades for those wanting to increase totals to get admission to BITS Philani - as Tamizh gradations were stricter. They even avoided the romantic French in favor of Sanskrit!

But the two guys who went to BITS would sit behind - even as the Sanskrit teacher would say Kalidasa is a kavi Chakravarty - they would pass a retort comment : "after him it is vairamuttu!"

Even as they took the RNam from our Rishis ( yes the BITS Philani seat was a pitchai from our sages) they would not wait a second before they filed their bankruptcy towards that debt!! Sigh....

shankarank
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by shankarank »

Aren't the written texts the cause of all angst in the world! inda "dog"ma-va vaittu kondu nAye padAta pAdu padukirArkal! :twisted: :lol:

RSR
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by RSR »

#86 by Govindaswamy -> Sir, I think you have misunderstood my asking if you knew Thamizh. I asked because I was about to give a lengthy passage in Thamizh. . I had mentioned the comparative strength and weakness of Thamizh and Samskrutham. Have I not mentioned in my earlier post ( 71 AND74) in the thread that all tamils intersted in Carnatic music should learn to read, write and speak Telugu, Kannadam, and Samskrutham? because the major composers of Carnatic system Purandharadasa, The Trinity, Annamacharya, Swathi Thirunal, Sadasiva Brammmendraal,... all sang in languages other than thamizh and all of them were religious songs. .
Last edited by RSR on 24 Oct 2016, 16:39, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by RSR »

kvchellappa-> context was 'grantha lipi' and an opportunity to share a good piece of info about MS ( by Rajendran)

RSR
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by RSR »

shankarank-> Let us not obfuscate the issue. . I think rasikas.org forum would agree that there are two systems of classical music in India a) Carnatic music system b) Hindusthani music system. 2) In Southern states ( Tamilnad, Kerala,Andhra, Karnataka, and now Telehnagan, the Carnatic system is in vogue, clearly defined by Purandharadasa around 1500. . By that time, thanks to Amir Khuzru, the North Indian system had developed many novelties ( especially in String instruments like Sitar, Sarod, Sarangi etc). and perhaps due to strong Persian influence had taken a different route. ( more emotion-based). less importance given to either Lyrics or religious devotion . ( Pakisthan and Bangladesh also have to be included). It is on this basis, the rasikas forum has separate sections for Carnatic and Hindusthani music ( though the posts and responses in Hindusthani section are meager ). I think, almost 95% of rasikas in the forum would understand Carnatic music as composed by Purandaradasa, The trinity, the recently discovered Annamacharya, Saathi Thirunaalll, Sadhasiva Bramhendram, . . As Jayadeva lived in 1200, we cannot take him as a composer of Carnatic music. . ..... However, it goes without saying that classical music must have existed in tamil country much earlier for atleast 1000 years. ( 600 AD and even earlier..Silappathikaram). an authentic R&D work has to be done to relate the temple music of Ancient South India and present day Carnatic music. .. Why not even accept that Carnatic music system has taken many features from the system that prevailed in South and developed it? What do we lose?

shankarank
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote:Why not even accept that Carnatic music system has taken many features from the system that prevailed in South and developed it? What do we lose?
I did include the term chennisai ( not chennai isai :lol: ) deriving from the term chemmozhi. So that takes care of that ;)

As regards the lineage from Sri Purandaradasa - don't they have that term Karnataka Sangeetham out there ;)

RSR
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Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by RSR »

What is in a name Sir? Over the last 500 years, the terms Carnatic music and Hindusthani music have acquired clear meaning. and thankfully for me, there are atleast some 50 ragams common to both , though differing in name. Being an MS devotee, that is one aspect that appealed to me. Why not leave the nomenclature, debates about historical development , and who owes what to whom' alone ? why not try to learn and enjoy more of Carnatic ragams , the declared main objective of this forum? . Regards

Govindaswamy
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Joined: 21 Feb 2010, 06:55

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by Govindaswamy »

Telugu, Kannada and MalayALam Musicians have no problem with the pronunciation of songs in the other two languages and Sanskrit. But they face trouble with the following aspects of Tamizh. KutRiyalugaram and kutRiyaligaram (i.e) shortened 'u' and 'i' at the end of words. In Telugu and Kannada u and i at the end of words are extended. They also have difficulty iwith words like nEtRu (நேற்று) and indRu (இன்று). On the otherhand Tamil musicians make lot of mistakes while singing songs of other languages.
I am sorry that I was not serious when I commented that Tamizh musicians who wanted to pronounce songs of other languages correctly should learn Grantham. English not being a phonetic language is not at suitable for transliteration of Indian languages. Instead of learning the scripts of the other languages along with the meanings of the songs, following transliteration method is easier and feasible.

क ख, ग, घ,
க, க2, க3, க4,
च, छ, ज, झ,
ச,ச2,ஜ, ஜ2
ट, ठ. ड, ढ,
ட, ட2, ட3, ட4
त, थ, द, ध,
த, த2, த3, த4
प, फ, ब, भ,
ப, ப2, ப3, ப4
स, श, ष, ह, क्ष, श्री
ஸ, ஸ1, ஷ, ஹ, க்ஷ, ஸ்ரீ

గోవిందస్వామి

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by RSR »

Post #97 by Govindaswamy -> yes Sir. .. I am shocked and bewildered that thamizh community has not protested and avoided any transliteration scheme into english that fails to differentiate beween tha and dha. ! and has no provision for oor. (period), nandru' ( short) , While admiring the enormous patience and labour on transliteration of thousands of songs, ..what will be the way in which such transliterated songs will be read by future generations?
'kaalaaith thhookki nindraadum dheyvamae' ..seems straight. but problem in 'ennaik kai thookki aal'.. How to slove it? no way. A language loses its charm when written in a foreign script. That applies to all languages. transliteartion can at best be an approximation. and may be a terrible dis-service to the language

shankarank
Posts: 4222
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by shankarank »

Sri RSR : if you noticed in this forum we are using capitalization "A" for nedil or dIRgha sounds. And inflected sounds of tamizh la , are noted as La, zha etc. Even the tamizh hard Ra is differentiated with a captial.

In samskritam there is a soft "vowel" - not consonant "R" - sounded with a kutRiyalukaram - "ru" and hence RNam , mAtRbhUtam are noted without the addition of another vowel like "u"!

shankarank
Posts: 4222
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by shankarank »

Credit goes to the person with handle sr_iyer who delineated this scheme in the predecessor forum!

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