The REAL burning issue of CM: Mridangam

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Nov 2017, 00:32

There was this concert in IITM , CLT as part of Mardi Gras. MAS, MAK and the artiste we are discussing now, on the Mridangam. I would not remember now what songs were played. But it was one of those melodious and soulful recitals , with Mridangam showing the restraint that is due to instrumental concerts. There were hardly few people, as there was a competing event in the Open Air Theater.

But one among them was Prof. K. Radhakrishna Rao, the EE analog designer. I may not have learnt much of analog design from him, it was a tough course, but I did learn something important that day.

He said, this is an insult to the artistes. I would not have known otherwise - seriously!

The organizing student would apologize to them for not planning and negotiating a better time slot for them. When we later spoke , we talked about the richness and exuberance of the Mridangam artiste of the day as well.

More about Prof K . Radhakrishna Rao. His every year project to one of his graduating students will include a circuit that produces the sound of mridangam. My next room mate did that project in our year of graduation. It created sounds / combinations not possible by a human hand. Such was his love of mridangam.

So even amidst those few people , there were THREE that were passionate about it, Me, the organizing student, and the professor.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Nov 2017, 00:46

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiLaF0h8ydI

The yati(s) have to enter his own being to give a Subha vAk. We have heard of stories like how he would ferry artistes not educated in school to get their visAs stamped. He and S. Rajam made Jangiris in the Aradhana once - I was told.

I don't know if Rohan's Dad was alluding to that here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25769&start=125#p287487

Would that bring back harimau??

If only he was as articulate and sensitive as the English speaking privileged artiste , with his sense of sacredness that he practices, what a deadly force it would be that will move the world!! Both men who know the in and out of music world!

Both of them sometimes go into their ditches : I don't know if they are into a swach Bharat campaign of their own!

Sometimes - we have to listen to the inner burning nAdam of their words (both of them) and not the words themselves - as I heard Kamal Hasan talk about it.

We keep affirming that we are still a clueless civilization everyday!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Nov 2017, 01:45

What a difference an instrumental concert makes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj44wb6PBFk

Even the tani is not as voluminous!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Nov 2017, 01:49

And only a great tradition would accommodate an artiste who sounds inaccurate sometimes to do great things as well:

https://youtu.be/JYpTGRa1424?t=429

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 13 Nov 2017, 02:38

Sri shankarank,
"I don't understand!"
You must find out who is it that does not understand!
(Problem of not understanding Ramnana either).
I enjoy music as perhaps any normal person. If music is sruti and layam, I do not understand either intrinsically. I do not understand the letters of music (swaras) though I may follow some words and even sentence.

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 13 Nov 2017, 18:47

There was a certain young banger, much like the banger of post 32. He was a youngster then, in the 1980s, but now I heard his son has also started playing the mridangam. I hope he doesn't bang like his father. This youngster much like the youngster of post 32 was encouraged to the hilt by MLV. Poor daughter of Lalitangi. If she thought that the leather beaters would be as cooperative as the stringer she groomed, she had, as they say in American English, a think coming.

It was the Gokulashtami season of the Krishna Gana Sabha sometime in September 1983. To escape the noise of the MuppAthamman temple just opposite, KGS's Gokulashtami programmes would be temporarily shifted to the Ramakrishna Mission School opposite Panagal Park. The upstairs Assembly Hall of the school was an ideal place to listen to Carnatic music. I have heard Palghat Mani Iyer playing for MLV at this hall in 1978 and '79. Yes, the concerts were mikeless. But after Mani Iyer who had the guts to play without a mike? Oh, this chap had, in that concert. And what did he do. For four songs he banged and banged and banged (you can say banged to the power of 'n', that would be simple). MLV was not a demanding type of musician. So, let's blast her as well as the rasikas' ears, right! A few young rasikas, in their 20s were annoyed and after the 3rd song itself were fuming. But who will, and how to bell the cat. There rose a saviour at the end of the 4th item and demanded that the mridangist 'play' softly (konjam sOfTA vAshingO, romba shattamA irukku, was the appeal in Tamil). Furious the banger became and shouted, "enna paNradu, mike illai. ipDi tAn vAshippEn' (What to do, no mike has been provided, therefore I will play like this). MLV turned her head the other side and pretended to have a drink (yeah a soft drink only, it was a public stage you know).

The saviour, but in the eyes of the goody goody, a rowdy, lost his temper and in turn shouted, "Stop playing, we can all listen to MLV alone with the violin. We don't want you', and sat down. The blaster didn't know what to say, but was breathing fire. MLV launched on a kAmbhOj AlApanA and carried on for 45 minutes in stages interspersed with the violin reply for 15 minutes. Then the tAnam and the reply for that. Almost 1 1/2 hours, the blaster could not place even a finger on his instrument. For the pallavi and swaras, he was subdued. MLV sang her usual tukkaDAs and a thillana. After the concert the saviour (or rowdy whichever description you want), was congratulated by many rasikas for being 'bold'. He then accosted 'The Hindu' critic NMN and told him in no uncertain terms that it was the duty of critics like him to see that such banging misdeeds didn't occur and that he should write about this in The Hindu. The critic smiled and left.

Came the next Friday morning and along with strong kApi 'The Hindu'. The Friday review carried NMN's review of the concert with the headline, "Plea to Mridangist to play Softly Goes Unheeded". The banger was in tears (so I heard) and was lamenting that his career was at an end, now that NMN had criticised him. MLV stopped engaging this banger for the next 3 years. The poor fellow had to cool his heels almost at the beginning of his career. But the proverbial question. Did he correct himself? Nah. There would always be rasikas who would be hard of hearing and wouldn't mind a two hour blasting. Probably this compared favourably with the banging and blasting male rasikas got at home from .... well everyone knows who.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Nov 2017, 20:19

3 Likes !! Wow. When melody became music - that was the beginning of end of music.

இப்ப ராகம் கேட்க பத்து பேர கூட்டி வாங்களேன்! கூட்டம் சேருகிற இடமெல்லாம் புதுசு புதுசா பாட்டெல்லாம் பாடுறாங்களாம்!

Bring 10 people to listen to rAgAs now! Those who draw crowds now sing all new songs every time!

And the one that draws crowd in diverse spaces, had to bad mouth that whole thing , the people involved, their caste and bring in enlightenment, media , and all the rats to make an impact!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Nov 2017, 20:20

RaviSri,
'medu'vAga, AnAl manamARak kai thaTTuginREn! 'Soft'ly, though heartily, I applaud.
What a gem of a story...So good to hear from you, anything, at any time...
Oh, and I don't know who the mridangist was, but does it matter?

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Nov 2017, 20:24

டேப்பை எடுக்க ஒன்றிர்க்கு இரண்டு கிருந்திக் ஸ்பூல் அனுப்பியவர்கள், ஒன்றை திரும்பி வாங்க , மைக் மட்டும் இரண்டு அனுப்பவில்லையே !

Those who sent TWO Grundig spool tapes , to get one copy back, did not send in an additional Mike?? Wow?

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Nov 2017, 20:29

எத்தனை ஸ்பூல் டேப்பில் தனியாவர்தனம் துண்டிக்க பட்டிருக்கிறது! கேள்! திருச்சி சங்கரன் சௌக்கிய மிருதங்கமே துண்டிக்க பட்டிருக்கிறது !

How many tapes , the tani was not recorded!!! Even Trichy Sankaran's soulful saukkiya mridangam has been cut!!

Again we reaffirm we are a clueless civilization!!!!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Nov 2017, 20:39

RaviSri wrote: ↑13 Nov 2017, 18:47 the leather beaters would be as cooperative as the stringer she groomed, she had, as they say in American English, a think coming.

That stringer even POST SK does not have a standing of her own and had to tour the US second fiddling SAXOPHONE!! You get it! You don't do you?!

There was a mELam too to boot! No where anything close to even a kalyANA mELam!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Nov 2017, 21:04

RaviSri wrote: ↑13 Nov 2017, 18:47 the leather beaters would be as cooperative as the stringer she groomed, she had, as they say in American English, a think coming.

அந்த அம்மாவுக்கு மிருதங்கம் தெரிஞ்சா ஒரு நல்ல மிருதங்கத்தயும் தயார் செய்திருப்பார்களோ ! பாவம் தெரியாம போச்சு!

Oh if she had known how to train a good cooperative Mridangist - she could have done that too can't she? Too bad she didn't know!

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 13 Nov 2017, 21:54

shankarank wrote: ↑13 Nov 2017, 21:04
RaviSri wrote: ↑13 Nov 2017, 18:47 the leather beaters would be as cooperative as the stringer she groomed, she had, as they say in American English, a think coming.
அந்த அம்மாவுக்கு மிருதங்கம் தெரிஞ்சா ஒரு நல்ல மிருதங்கத்தயும் தயார் செய்திருப்பார்களோ ! பாவம் தெரியாம போச்சு!

Oh if she had known how to train a good cooperative Mridangist - she could have done that too can't she? Too bad she didn't know!

Hope you aren't insinuating that that ammA was weak in layam.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Nov 2017, 22:06

Well it is interesting that you associate , the (physical) instrument itself with layam. You are not alone! Lot of people have made that mistake and still making it. Even OST in his tyAgarAja lecture, had to point to the mridangam and ta-tAngida-takundari-kita-taka to explain how tyAgarAjA extols layam also as Bhakti ( svara rAga laya sudha rasa manta - from inta saukyamani nE).

So he outsourced it all to them then!!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 13 Nov 2017, 22:38

And they not only outsourced it , damn it, they subverted it's sense and meaning before doing so!

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 13 Nov 2017, 22:45

Shankarank, I did my BTech final project under Dr K Radhakrishna Rao at IITM. It was on active filters. The year was 1973,there were no computers there, and even ICs were hard to come by. We attended music concerts together.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 14 Nov 2017, 08:43

Sachi, happy to hear that you worked with greats like him. Would like to hear some reminiscences of concerts that time. Was there a music club then?

As a nudge here is few minutes of bliss for you! https://youtu.be/JSZB8fnXfwc?t=446

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 14 Nov 2017, 10:24

Shankarank,
Thanks!

Yes, very much, I believe it was we who strengthened and built up the Music Club. Dr. Narayan Rao, (HV Engg) was the secretary for a long time.He now lives in Mysore and we met socially recently and exchanged many anecdotes.

You know the newly inaugurated indoor stadium in early '70s featured a music concert (I forget who, may be TV Gopalakrishnan?) and it was a fiasco for the acoustics. The embarassed folks at IIT hurriedly called Dr. B S Ramakrishna Rao of IISC (an expert on acoustics) to come and help fix the unbearable reverb etc. He commissioned some hanging acoustic absorbers to mitigate the menace.

we had all greats come and perform. The concert of Ramani, Lalgudi and Karaikudi Mani was held in the Civil Engg top floor hall as the CLT was under renovation. What a concert! I believe in that Lalgudi Ramani combo, I always liked the flute more... maybe the sound of the flute overpowers me.
we had KVN, Lalgudi solo, The Dwaram siblings with TVG. In the revovated CLT, he came in, sang a few phrases (he would play the mridangam that day) and said the acoustics were so good they could do a micless concert!

we had KVN with TNK and PR. My love for KVN+Raghu was seeded then.
We had Namagiripettai Krishnan.
We had MDR...
We had MSG...
We had Santhanam, TVS, ....
Kunnukudi...
Voleti...

When Lalgudi played solo, the England cricket team was playing a test match in Chepauk. Their captain (Tony Lewis) was a violinist, and he and another player had come to the concert.

We had a series of lectures by Dr. M. Nageswara Rao on music appreciation as a paid workshop.
Listen to this rare recording:
https://youtu.be/4uQ-ir_FY7A

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 14 Nov 2017, 11:11

Thanks. During my time when S Balachandar came under the auspices of SPIC MACAY for Lec Dem, he was upset for the most part that his vehicle was sent late and he kept playing Guitar ( Western Music) for the most part on his vINA , explaining plain notes vs. oscillating notes.

When a girl asked why he used a pickup - he retorted : so the sound reaches you , else you will have to come too close to listen!! Well he was lucky to get away with it. I didn't know at the time that SrngAra was a rasa in music!

Well in a U.S tour not too long ago, Hariharan also used that line - asking guys to shut up , as a Woman was requesting something and he was busy talking to her!

Narasimham Ram was the chief guest who arrived late as well - as the same vehicle which was late to bring him , was sent further late! he gave a speech, but he was oscillating his legs back and forth leaning to podium as he spoke!

SB refused to play some music at the end when someone requested, as he said he didn't want to get into playing music at the time and instead wanted to bombast us with his responses!

No word spoken on his strengths like layam!! You can see how the 80s have turned almost all musicians so bitter and cynical!

It was only much later in 2002 in Astika samAjam , that Karaikudi Mani would mention SB, Alathur and LGJ - how we talk about them specially , for their sense of layam - that I knew !!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 14 Nov 2017, 11:30

OK now - since you posted a T Ranganathan recording:

https://youtu.be/y_SY0KrbzRk?t=916

ரவிஸ்ரீ : டீ ரங்கநாதன் சத்தமில்லாம வாசித்தார் என்பதை தவிர உங்களால் வேறு ஏதாவது சொல்வதற்கு உண்டா??

Does RaviSri has anything else to say than T. Ranganathan played softly?

கூட்டமில்லாக் கச்சேரி விட்டுட்டு கூட்டம் கூடுகிற கச்சேரி எதுக்கய்யா உமக்கு ?

Why do you dabble in crowded concerts when you have crowd fee ones?

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 15 Nov 2017, 18:36

What do you want T.Ranganathan to do, especially when he is playing for his elder cousins? Ranga belonged to the Palani stock and was one of the best products of that school. And the purest too. Look at the youtube video where he has accompanied T.Brinda who both sings as well as plays the veena. Listen to that sound and his phrases for mEru samAna and amba nIlAmbari (for the veena). You can understand his vidvat.

Ranga like his brother Viswa was ignored by the Madras establishment. He had to seek greener pastures and that is how he settled at Wesleyan. Viswa followed him and we know how they both were responsible for the important position CM occupies in the Ethno Musicology Dept at Wesleyan.

At any rate such helpful support shows a mature mind and his tendency to support the main artist instead of trying to hog the limelight by banging. I personally prefer such supporters. And in this my favourite is Ramabhadran, never mind the sameness of his tani. And Semmangudi himself has more than once appreciated Ramabhadran's support as being conducive to not just peaceful singing but also to give off the main artist's best.

What crowd? MLV drew what crowds, pray? At the KGS concert at RKM school that I have described above there were just about 200 rasikas. If I wanted crowd free concerts, of course, I always had MDR till 1983 and T.Brinda and T.Muktha. I could be one among the 40 or 50 rasikas.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Nov 2017, 19:57

With all the tamizh which this thread sports, one more adage won't hurt.
niRai kuDam taLumbAdu--it can be applied in several instances--Ramabhadran's playing included...

devan · Post by **devan** » 15 Nov 2017, 20:20

The mridangist in the MLv concert was R. Ramesh and the so called rowdy Rasika is Ravisri. I was also there in the concert.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 15 Nov 2017, 22:15

RaviSri wrote: ↑15 Nov 2017, 18:36 What crowd? MLV drew what crowds, pray? At the KGS concert at RKM school that I have described above there were just about 200 rasikas.

200 is a good crowd if it was early 70s or even 80s. You cannot take every measure with a standard of what MSS, BMK and KJY/SPB drew/draw!

For SSI his old loyal crowd will turn up wherever - be it MA or Nanganallur or madipakkam!

Inside IIT , only Mandolin Srinivas filled the CLT - for the rest - we would crave for 100!

I wish we get 200 people consistently for all the young artistes ( of good standing - especially on layam!) who are performing well today!

RaviSri wrote: ↑15 Nov 2017, 18:36 What do you want T.Ranganathan to do, especially when he is playing for his elder cousins?

So you should read : viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26387&p=291394&hili ... ma#p314562

ஒரு மிருதங்க சொல் விழாமல் ஒரு கமகம் உன் காதுக்கு போய்விடுமா ? பின்னால் நீ ஆலாபனை கேட்கலாம். ஆனால் முதலில் இதை கேட்கவேண்டும்!

These are things that people in thick of music should think about and tell others. I understand these were all common place and taken for granted in the era that they happened. But it is not so in the current era. Most senior Mridangists who speak on such issues, are only able to go into the extent of: " Mridangists should listen to the song , know the song and follow the song" and not beyond much else!

And the kalaparamaNam issue is something KRM has been lamenting in his magazine ( excerpts once published in sangeetham.com).

R. Ramesh by the way was the one who was brought in to do tALam by KRM, during songs even, in an OST concert in MFAC ( 2002 IIRC)!

And we way too oversimplify what Ramabhadran is about - it is not just soft/supportive play!

arasi wrote: ↑15 Nov 2017, 19:57 niRai kuDam taLumbAdu

naRai (nirai) kuDangal amaiti kAppadinAl tAn kurai kuDangal taLumba vENDiya nilamai!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 15 Nov 2017, 22:29

shankarank wrote: ↑14 Nov 2017, 11:11 he kept playing Guitar ( Western Music) for the most part on his vINA , explaining plain notes vs. oscillating notes

More I remember about this: he recalled a trip to MA with Musiri Subrahmaniya Iyer ( SB requested him to come along!) for a Western Orchestra concert. After 30 minutes, Musiri turned to him and said: bOraDikkiradE ( it is boring!). Recalling that SB went on a tirade about how our musicians never listen to anything outside their genre and never open minded about things. He didn't stop there : "you should watch them turn pages on the sheet so fast to resume their playing in sync. our people would fumble!"

Well guess what : some 25/30 years down from there : Kids born to pure Indian genes (along with their western counter parts) are turning a page on TyAgaraja's utsava sampradaya kritis! Not anything complicated - not Alapana, not neraval, not svaram, not tAnam, not pallavi - just the beat hugging ones! Are they fumbling?

periya rAgamAm - manOdharmamAM ! That is the real elitism - the cognoscenti trying to negotiate with the West - of their version of creativity. Not the Silk Sarries/Jewels or an NRI father trying to push his kid into a stage built with Thermacoal!

nI tyAgarAjarai nIkkinAl enna ! avarukku engEyO vAzhvu uNdu!

If layam litmus test were to be laid on people getting on stage - pAdi payalluku chance kidayAtu (half the people would not get the chance) - there won't be 2500 concerts. We will be hero worshipping just a few ones and listening to them in Stadiums!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 15 Nov 2017, 23:46

shankarank wrote: ↑15 Nov 2017, 22:15
RaviSri wrote: ↑15 Nov 2017, 18:36 What do you want T.Ranganathan to do, especially when he is playing for his elder cousins?
So you should read : viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26387&p=291394&hili ... ma#p314562

ஒரு மிருதங்க சொல் விழாமல் ஒரு கமகம் உன் காதுக்கு போய்விடுமா ? பின்னால் நீ ஆலாபனை கேட்கலாம். ஆனால் முதலில் இதை கேட்கவேண்டும்!

https://youtu.be/_cmzirvDs2I?t=1809
Yup if it were Amir Khan or Rashid Khan - we will talk big!!! - Well we not only did NOT talk about brindamma - we also said mridangam is not music!

Music will come to full fruition when it becomes an exhibit in a museum - in curated spaces - next to Art Galleries - for the real cognoscenti - the real elite - where the gamaka as a piece of stone , instead of melting stones, will be on exhibit!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Nov 2017, 03:26

Here's an aside from a naRaiyuNDu, kuRaiyumuNDu (old and lacking in learning): this is just about that one word you've used. Strange, I've come across the word in the past few days with news about CM: 'curated by'! A new usage in the Chennai music world. What next?

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 16 Nov 2017, 07:31

arasi wrote: ↑16 Nov 2017, 03:26 'curated by'! A new usage in the Chennai music world. What next?

Again when I use a word to criticize, don't take it that I am against the sense of contemporaneity that word implies, in terms of orderliness, sophistication, good presentation etc. If kids from America can come in, so can some of the practices of their place ( again I am not saying Indians otherwise did not know this themselves or from any other place)!

But don't denigrate the original source. Or belittle the parts of it. That is thievery!

Same point I will make it elsewhere in that context!

On the one hand rhythm is being taken out fused and appreciated, on the other melody is promoted exclusively as music and creativity is defined without looking at the whole thing together or some important underlying aspects - like the metaphysics of time etc.

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 16 Nov 2017, 11:49

Ever since those two snide remarks about beating one's wife and beating one's step-son, the subject of feudal and misogynistic practices have been exercising my mind.

Somehow "beating the drum" seems to invoke the imagery of beating someone.

I also recalled the much debated chaupai of Saint Tulsidas in his Ramcharitmanas, which comes in Sundarkand:
ढोल गवार शूद्र पशु नारी सकल ताड़ना के अधिकारी!!

Literally, it means that the Dhol (=drum), illiterate idiot, the servant, the beast of burden and woman all deserve to be beaten.
Why did Tulsidas say it? I wonder. Of course some say that tadana is actually to be read as tarana or saving.

Anyway,
if a man raises his hand, as Kangana Ranaut says today, a woman will give it back with interest!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 16 Nov 2017, 13:07

That is 'interest'ing.

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 16 Nov 2017, 14:44

To avoid any misunderstanding as to who said those words in Tulsi Ramayan, I produce below the actual page. That was said by the king of the ocean, when Rama threatened to dry him up lest he not give way to the army:

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Nov 2017, 15:39

arasi wrote: ↑16 Nov 2017, 03:26 Here's an aside from a naRaiyuNDu, kuRaiyumuNDu (old and lacking in learning): this is just about that one word you've used. Strange, I've come across the word in the past few days with news about CM: 'curated by'! A new usage in the Chennai music world. What next?

It's not carnatic, it's just that it has reached carnatic.

It is the new trendy word. Exhibitions, collections and museums have always been curated. That's where the word belongs. Now you will find that the selection at your local shop is curated, that a season of music concerts is curated... that the selection of veg st the greengrocer's is curated. It's just been adopted by the marketing-speak people. The new hype word.

It probably won't be long before The Hindu is curated, rather than edited. Consider the trend of serious newspaper becoming middle-class-spending food/travel/clothes magazine. That's "curated" for you. I blame Abraham.

(Yes, I know that The Hindu has to survive and somehow find ways to get the facebook generation to buy it)

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 16 Nov 2017, 16:07

curator is a word in standard usage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curator
however, not all nouns can be used in their 'verbal' form. 'curate' may then be not right usage. as verb...but as a noun in an entirely different setting a priest of the lowest rank, especially in the Church of England, whose job is to help the vicar (= priest of a particular area)

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 16 Nov 2017, 16:11

'narai' I think refers to grey haired wisdom.( though even youngsters have 'narai' these days sans wisdom. .. kuRai .to deficiency.
I do not think, there is any word in tamil as 'naRai' ..Open to corrections by kyoto group.
https://www.ashtangayoga.info/sanskrit/ ... %20%0A%0A-

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Nov 2017, 19:03

RSR wrote: ↑16 Nov 2017, 16:07curator is a word in standard usage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curator

Yes, I knew that. Museums have always had them.

however, not all nouns can be used in their 'verbal' form.

"Verbing the noun" is anathema to many who are both more pedantic and more educated than I am. I would say that... it depends.

'curate' may then be not right usage. as verb...but as a noun in an entirely different setting a priest of the lowest rank, especially in the Church of England, whose job is to help the vicar (= priest of a particular area)

OK, so it's confession time. Yes, I know that the CofE has curates, although I could not tell you what they do. Being English, I have heard all those words from the CofE hierarchy, but not being christian, have little idea what they mean in practice. Better ask Shankarank. He'll tell us all about it from Abraham onwards

By the way, it is pronounced CUREut rather than cureATE

Now what I have to confess is that I did not know that curate, in this context, is a "verbed nown." Google define gives only the churchman definition, so I took down Vol 1 of my Shorter Oxford English Dictionary and confirmed that, indeed, there is no such what-a-curator-does verb as curate! A real pedant would say, "That word doesn't exist!"

Thanks!

But, actually, I don't mind the nouned verb. I mind the pseudo way in which it is used.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 16 Nov 2017, 22:10

Nick H wrote: ↑16 Nov 2017, 19:03 but not being christian, have little idea what they mean in practice. Better ask Shankarank.

I can assure you that I used it in the most secular sense of the word - how it is used in modern times - in the enlightened art spaces.

I was completely oblivious to it's history in any religious tradition - I swear !

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 16 Nov 2017, 23:37

'Ah! what is wrong in 'inventing' new 'expressive' words, in any language be it English or Tamil? Did not the Bard himself invent thousands of such words?.. I am today's Bard and will add words to the language at my will and pleasure. I will create 'verbiage' of nouns and will 'nounify' verbs as I like and many are there who like me ,like me. .. Writers should use very simple words known to me. They should not use words to make me look up for the meaning in either google..or oxford or whatever . I dont know the words and complex antithetic phrasing of that 'student journalist' and the little-known newspaper which publishes such trash which even an elementary school in England of my times will dismiss as such. " says the anti-pedant.( what will he do if he stumbles upon spiraling lovelies from Karl Marx? ) ( Silver-tongued Srinivasa Sastry used to have the Webster Dictionary as a constant companion as his 'GITA' . Dr.Pasupathy blog page will speak about it).http://s-pasupathy.blogspot.in/search/l ... 0%E0%AE%BF We demand the 'freedom' to kill at our will, even our own mother-tongue. . The Labour Govt removed Bard's plays from the curriculam . long back. as useless stuff fit only for pedants.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a full-length portrait in England somewhere of Srinivasa Sastry honouring the man who taught the English , the correct pronunciation of King's English. ( we were not discussing pronunciation any way).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(an excerpt from wiki)
[Srinivasa Sastri was known for his mastery over the English language and his oratory.[citation needed] As a student, he once corrected a few passages in J. C. Nesfield's English Grammar.[citation needed] Whenever he was on visit to the United Kingdom, Sastri was often consulted over spellings and pronunciations.[citation needed] His mastery over the English language was recognized by King George V, Winston Churchill, Lady Lytton and Lord Balfour[3] who rated him amongst the five best English-language orators of the century.[6][29] The Master of Balliol, Arthur Lionel Smith swore that he had never realized the beauty of the English language until he heard Sastri.[29] while Lord Balfour remarked that listening to Srinivasa Sastri made him realise the heights to which the English language could rise.[3] Thomas Smart conferred upon Sastri the appellation "Silver Tongued Orator of the British Empire"[30] and he was so called all over the United Kingdom.[6] Srinivasa Sastri's inspirations were William Shakespeare, Sir Walter Scott, George Eliot, John Stuart Mill, Thomas Harvey, Victor Hugo and Valmiki - Indian sage and the author of the Hindu epic Ramayana.]......https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V._S._Srinivasa_Sastri

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Nov 2017, 02:12

Ah! what is wrong in 'inventing' new 'expressive' words, in any language

Nothing... when it is done with art, and everything when it is done with ignorance.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 17 Nov 2017, 08:33

Merriam Webster acknowledges this as a transitive verb as well:

curate
verb cu·rate \ ˈkyu̇r-ˌāt , ˈkyər- ; kyu̇-ˈrāt \
Definition of curate
curated; curating
transitive verb
:to act as curator of curate a museum an exhibit curated by the museum's director

A language has to expand its own verbs - but borrow nouns from other languages as the said people come into contact with ! Like the Juggernaut that little kindergartner uses in his NY Times article - borrowed from Jagannath. Once the source is forgotten, it has the potential to turn into a verb!

English's gravity viz-a-viz(spelling American;) other languages is due to such accretion isn't it?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Nov 2017, 09:01

Well, a new expression I am 'curating'?

We are tired of the hippopotamus rolling a pea. So, it is a kindergarten kid manning a juggernaut now--I mean, jagannatha's chariot--inverted image, of course...

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 17 Nov 2017, 09:29

After H.G Wells, it is you who have used that tiresome phrase quite often in rasikas looks like

Well vAmana , grew into juggernaut rolling the world as a pea! So kind of all comes together mythically

For the lord big things ( like the world ) are small matter - but for us some small matters are too big to handle!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Nov 2017, 09:49

I can say for myself: for small folks like me, these are big things to handle

Was it H.G. Wells who said it? I can't recollect. It was about Henry James's style, if this naRai niRaya maRandiDAdirundAl...if this grey-haired hasn't forgotten a lot of things

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 17 Nov 2017, 09:57

Possibly, Nick is talking of English, and Webster's is about American. Americans turn nouns to verbs and verbs to nouns easily!
Webster's also talks of the word as connected with museum, the point Nick seems to be emphasising.
New words cannot be justified by the fact that a language develops by adding new words, just as we cannot advise having more children as that is the way life is continued. (I know of makkatselvam as a blessing).

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 17 Nov 2017, 10:12

Americans are a young evolving culture , talkative - and not bound by too much etiquette! So goes their language!

Well language growth apart, you are missing the grave situation we are in which warrants these new words to express what is going on! They want to slander the concept of culture even while curating it into a museum

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 17 Nov 2017, 23:08

arasi wrote: ↑17 Nov 2017, 09:49 I can say for myself: for small folks like me, these are big things to handle
Was it H.G. Wells who said it? I can't recollect. It was about Henry James's style, if this naRai niRaya maRandiDAdirundAl...if this grey-haired hasn't forgotten a lot of things

Oh you didn't know H.G Wells said it! Too bad, I also didn't and I also only vaguely remember something about H.G Wells , like T.S Elliot - only just vague names - just as I remember my fellow IIT preparers listening to Michael Jackson in Madurai jogging at 2 AM, still I didn't know the difference between rock and pop even well into the U.S life. Though I didn't hear a word about Ramnad krishnan either when Ramnad is only some 50 miles away. In fact I may not have come across H.G Wells at all, it's just a name that rings with those names in English textbooks that I totally forgot by 12th grade! Same with Henry James!

They didn't curate me enough - illENA ippaDiyellam pEsuvEna (will I be talking like this?)

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 17 Nov 2017, 23:25

Nick H » 17 Nov 2017, 02:12
" Ah! what is wrong in 'inventing' new 'expressive' words, in any language"
Nothing... when it is done with art, and everything when it is done with ignorance.

=====================================================
.'says the anti-pedant." Satire lost on some people?
====================================================
"Mr. Sastry did not speak English as an Englishman would do. But he spoke it as it ought to be spoken."
Rt. Hon’ble Srinivas Sastry’s speeches took the English men by storm: They listened to his speeches in rapt attention. Under his portrait in Guild Hall of London, the following lines were written:

‘Here is an Indian who taught English to English men!
http://www.yabaluri.org/Web%20(1978%20- ... ul2004.htm

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 17 Nov 2017, 23:33

Silver Tongued Srinivasa Sastry.. by K. Gopalakrishna Murthy
some excerpts... "The telephone rang in the hotel room of the Rt.Hon. V.S.Srinivasa Sastry in 1921. The voice at the other end was that of Mr. Bilderbeck – the British principal of the Government Training College, Kumbakonam, when as a young man Sastry was his student. It was a pleasant surprise for Mr. Sastry to meet his former Principal, while it was no less a pleasant affair for Mr. Bilderbeck that his erstwhile student had been honoured with the Freedom of the City of London.
Mr. Bilderbeck got up a little function in honour of Mr. Sastry. On that occasion Mr. Bilderbeck recalled a very touching incident when Mr. Sastry was his student. The only dress he could afford was a towel with which he attended the class. On a rainy day Sastry’s towel got wet. The strict disciplinarian in Mr. Bilderbeck imposed on Sastry a fine of Eight Annas. Where upon Sastry with tears in his eyes begged the Principal to say how he was to pay the fine of Eight Annas when he could not buy a new shirt which would cost him only six Annas.
A few hours later Mrs. Bilderbeck found her husband in his study praying to God to forgive him for the imposition of fine on poor Sastry. Mrs. Bilderbeck advised the disciplinarian to remit the fine himself which he did, and as the story goes, gave Sastry a new shirt, too.
After relating this incident the Bilderbecks Expressed their profound joy that this shirt-less “SRINIVASAN” blossomed into the Rt. Hon. V. S. Srinivasan Sastry, a member of the British Privy Council and a free man of the City of London.
Such was the grinding poverty and chill penury Sastry suffered as student. On one occasion Sastry said his mother had to decline a gift of Mangoes as she had no money enough to purchase salt and pickle it. How unbelievable it is to a modern student well placed in cosy comfort and sheltering ease; what it was to suffer poverty."
http://www.yabaluri.org/Web%20(1978%20- ... ul2004.htm

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 17 Nov 2017, 23:41

"In Tamil culture, it is called a tannumai.The earliest mention of the mridangam in Tamil literature is found perhaps in the Sangam literature where the instrument is known as 'tannumai'. The word "Mridangam" is Sandhi or union of the two Sanskrit words mŗt (clay or earth) and anga (limb), as early Mridangam were made of hardened clay.......'In ancient Hindu sculpture, painting, and mythology, the mridangam is often depicted as the instrument of choice for a number of deities including Ganesha (the remover of obstacles) and Nandi, who is the vehicle and follower of Shiva. Nandi is said to have played the mridangam during Shiva's primordial tandava dance, causing a divine rhythm to resound across the heavens. The mridangam is thus also known as "Deva Vaadyam," or "Divine Instrument".
During the post-Sangam period, as mentioned in the epic Silappadikaram (சிலப்பதிகாரம்), it formed a part of the antarakoṭṭu (அந்தரக்கொட்டு)[5][6] - a musical ensemble at the beginning of dramatic performances that would later develop into Bharathanatyam.[7] The player of this instrument held the title tannumai aruntozhil mutalvan (தண்ணுமை அருந்தொழில் முதல்வன்).[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mridangam

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Nov 2017, 23:59

RSRm walls of text neither contribute to discussions nor do they win arguments. They get scrolled past. But at least you have come back to the mridangam, and the "old chestnut" that it was once made of clay.

I'm glad that Miriam Webster recognises the verb curate and surprised that Google, at least on the first page doesn't. I think it's a good one. As long as it us not used as hype.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 18 Nov 2017, 00:41

RSR walls of text share information. unpalatable to a few. ..and do not aim to 'win' any arguments.