And our musicians find it hard to sing in other languages!

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 10 Dec 2007, 21:52

rshankar

Just loud thinking.

The bakthi cult in South reached a peak in the 7th to 9th centuries which was the period of Alwars & Nayanmars. They used music and literature to spread the name of the Lord.

Was there any such movement in the northern parts at that time? The muslim rule had not started at that point of time.

Again the trinity came much much later. Both NI & SI were well and truly in to British rule at that point of time.

The theme of SI using music and art as cloak to protect itself looks a bit weak considering the time lines.

Ofcourse HM taking a more romantic hue due to rulers then is quite possible

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Dec 2007, 23:57

I have just started reading the book 'Singing the classical, voicing the modern' by Amanda Weidman. It is not an easy book to read since the book grew out of her Phd thesis but she talked to a lot of people ( her ack page covers almost everyone in the Chennai Music scene and beyond ) and read through a lot of old literature from various libraries. She may have some answers to this question; The 'How and why' of the present day CM even if one does not necessarily relate/agree with her thesis conclusions. I will post if I find any such relevant material in the book.

Secondly, when reading historical accounts, we have to remember that historians typically compress centuries worth of human endeavor and activity in a paragraph. For that, they necessarily have to use some hypothesis and inference. This is called 'Macro-History'. It is not truth at the micro/individual level ( historians do not even claim it to be so) but some conclusions they draw at a systemic level.

For example, in this case, when Prof. Jackson says "Religion used the art and culture as a cloak to proect itself", we should not interpret this at a Micro level because that would not make any sense. Were there a person or two or hundred or thousand who got together to decide this is how they are going to respond to the threat to the religion? No. People at that time lived through their lives in whatever social eco-system that existed, like how we live our lives now. It is a complicated process running through centuries with a lot of feedback loop. Any reactionary response by the general population tends to be small rather than a major event. It is a complex system.

What historians normally do is to look at them in totality and basically say 'The System's response to external disturbance is to adjust their music to be more devotional'. It is at best an educated inference. If there is no other plausible hypothesis, then it gets accepted to be the most probably one. But with any complex system ( in the technical sense ), any linear conclusions ( A happened hence B happened as a result ) are always very very approximate since a complex sysem is characterized by innumerable feedback reinforcements which make it highly non-linear. So we have to understand any straight conclusions linking possible causes and effects for what they are: An educated hypothesis/intellectual guess with some supporting material.

Historical anthropology is where they start at the micro level (individual level ) and build up theories to explain higher level things. That would be considered 'Micro History'. We all have heard of Micro and Macro economics. This is the same thing, except as applied to Society at large.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 11 Dec 2007, 05:05

Was there any such movement in the northern parts at that time? The muslim rule had not started at that point of time.

I was just trying to understand the history of hindustani music and I came across Dhrupad singing which is bhakti-based and is the oldest style. People were singing in praise of Lord Vishnu, Krishna, Shankar. This style lost to Islamic setting...

I read it got revived in late 20 century..

here's a documentary on Dhrupad- a nice Subhapantuvarali at the beginning.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=0

My favorite is this one-gundecha bros. I'm sure they can sing rangapuravihara if they try..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5DOy3qkeDU

This did not happen in SI.
We have preserved the compositions and style.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 11 Dec 2007, 07:02

http://www.chembur.com/anecdotes/vdpaluskar.htm

VD Paluskars Story is a very clear indicator of the situation ,at the turn of the Century.His conviction that Music had to ride piggy back on Religious themes, if it had to get back to the drawing rooms of the average household , is pretty well documented.

Incidentally This school emplys compositions based only on religious themes.
Members could remember Omkarnath thakurs rendering of Main nahin Makhan Khayo, which is almost like a Harikatha, in verse.

Maybe there is a pointer there , in his not coming down to South India ,to accomplish this task.
He must have seen ,exactly what he wanted achieved, in the Practice of CM in the South.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 11 Dec 2007, 07:32

main nahi makhan khayo. has not Anup Jalota stolen the show from ONT? GOBILALITHA

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 11 Dec 2007, 10:06

Hazrat Inaayat Khan -
"The true use of music is to be musical in one's thoughts, words and actions. True harmony of music comes from the harmony of the soul, its true source, and when it comes from there, it must appeal to all souls".
http://wahiduddin.net/hik/hik_music_bio.htm

Haridasa Tradition
http://www.dvaita.org/haridasa/overview/scope.html

Abida Parveen -
"I have turned to Sufis because they have spoken to God and Man through the language of Music - Sufism and music are inseparable and their message of love and peace is universal". Her songs are mainly in Urdu, Sindhi, Punjabi, Seraiki and Hindi, but her intense and exhilarating concerts transcend the need for language, her voice able to portray emotions behind the text that even words cannot at times."
http://www.thedailystar.net/magazine/20 ... sttalk.htm

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 11 Dec 2007, 10:41

An old episode from the portals of rasikas.org
Courtesy Ravi

rshankar wrote:Kulkarni sa'ab,
That was an absolutely lovely composition: do you know who composed it? It reminds me of Tyagaraja's compositions on nAda yOga, nAda bhakti etc...
Here is my effort at translation:

pyar nahin hai sur se jisko
woh moorakh insaan nahin

pyAr: love
nahIn: doesn?t have
sur sE: for musical notes
jiskO: one who
wOh: he/she
mUraK: fool
insAn: human
nahIn is not

He(she) who does not love musical notes/music is not only a fool, but is inhuman/not human as well

sur insaan bana deta hai
sur Rehman mila deta hai

sur: musical notes
insAn: human
banA dEtA hai: makes
sur: music
rehmAn: God
milA dEtA hai: connects one (with)

Musical notes/music not only make(s) one human, it also lets you find/connect with God.

Sur ki aag me jalne wale
parwane nadaan nahin

sur ki Ag mE: in the fire of music
jalnE wAlE: (those who) burn
parvAnE: moths
nAdAn: innocent
nahIn: (are) not

Those that ?burn? in the fire of musical notes/music are not innocent moths.

jag me agar sangeeth na hota
koi kisika meeth na hota

jag mE: in this world
agar sangIth: if music
na hOthA: did not exist
kOI: no one
kisIkA: another?s
mIth: friend
na hOthA: (will) not be a friend
If there was no music in this world, people would not be able to make friends.

yeh ehsaath hai saath suro kan
Yeh duniya veeran nahin

yEh: this
ehsAn hai: is (the) legacy
sAth: 7
surOn: notes
yEh: this
duniyA: world
vIrAn: bare/bereft of beauty
nahIn: is not

This is the legacy of these seven notes: they ensure that the world is not bare/bereft of (beauty).

Ravi

A Few months ago I played this song to Neyveli Santhanagopalan at his home , trying to get him interested.(BTW has any one heard him sing a Khayal as a duet with OST.A very very interesting effort.)
I found him too involved with Amir Khan that day, and did not expect these lyrics to dazzle someone who is used to CM Krithis.
He just waved it away.

Maybe in a lighter moment someday , he will sing it for us.Or perhaps in his next duet with OST

Levity... Something one can never associate with CM.
It is just too serious.

humdinger · Post by **humdinger** » 11 Dec 2007, 10:46

talking of Dhrupad, i am always amazed listening to Ustad Rahim Fahimuddin Khan Dagar, starting off this elaborate Kedar rendition withy a prayer to lord siva and mother parvati...obviously for him there is no religion to the naadabrahman.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/069d1dc3-8ff4 ... Raag-Kedar

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 11 Dec 2007, 11:33

Dhrupadiyas in fact take pride in the fact that their music has been derived from the vedas. Almost all the compositions are on Hindu themes...but even among khyal singers, it is not unheard of for a Muslim singer to sing a Hindu theme or vice versa

humdinger · Post by **humdinger** » 11 Dec 2007, 11:43

but even among khyal singers, it is not unheard of for a Muslim singer to sing a Hindu theme or vice versa

Yes VIjay, one of my friend told me of this incident when BGAK sang his famous pahadi compsn(hari om tatsat) in a concert in pakistan. Coolji, you have more details? i

my emphasis is that here what daagar saab doing was more like a prayer than singing.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 11 Dec 2007, 11:50

humdinger wrote:talking of Dhrupad, i am always amazed listening to Ustad Rahim Fahimuddin Khan Dagar, starting off this elaborate Kedar rendition withy a prayer to lord siva and mother parvati...obviously for him there is no religion to the naadabrahman.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/069d1dc3-8ff4 ... Raag-Kedar

very nice..enjoyed this rendition.
I cannot entirely make out the lyrics though.
Are these compositions or do they make up something on the spot?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 11 Dec 2007, 12:44

humdinger
some day we have to find ways of watching tonnes of documentaries -at my disposal-on such subjects in a group-maybe in different cities if needed.
I am averse to sharing these on the forum for copyright reasons as well as difficulties in handling large sized videos.

maybe we can start next year's programs with an hour of video watching , every time.
For the timebeing I will go through some of the Videos and add to the discussions here.
In many of the interviews I remember hearing/ watching , The Dagars and BGAK are found more often talking of Saraswathi than any other Diety.

But let me get back on this.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Dec 2007, 12:55

humdinger wrote:talking of Dhrupad, i am always amazed listening to Ustad Rahim Fahimuddin Khan Dagar, starting off this elaborate Kedar rendition withy a prayer to lord siva and mother parvati...obviously for him there is no religion to the naadabrahman.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/069d1dc3-8ff4 ... Raag-Kedar

Very nice. Those HM rasikas who like this kind of Dhrupad rendition, should like MD's Parimala Ranganatham. I do not see any qualitiative differences and can not see any reason why it would not easily be relatable by an HM rasika.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 11 Dec 2007, 13:44

http://rapidshare.com/files/75589376/Track_1.mp3

Mohammed Sarahang (from afghanistan)singing "Haree Mero Laaal'
A haunting melody which he calls "ranjini"

humdinger · Post by **humdinger** » 11 Dec 2007, 15:17

Are these compositions or do they make up something on the spot?

Suji, I think the lyrics are pretty pre-composed, atleast in case of Gundechas they have announced the source also in the concert (like rama charita manas etc). but as dhrupad is more manodharma oriented, lot of improvisation happens on the spot.

VK, you make a point there. And i heard that Rabindra Sangeet is heavily inspired from MD's compsns.

Coolji, may be her majesty's royal palace in Jayanagar is an ideal starting point. I am all eyes and ears

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Dec 2007, 16:20

What's all this? Peasantry elevated to royalty?

Humdinger,
There is more room in the hearts of the hosts for music than in their simple home away from home . If the man in the white kurtA so wishes, February is the month...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 11 Dec 2007, 16:35

So February it will be .bangalore rasikas please start humming.Would like to know how many would come.
I will try and invite MV Ramana ( People who visit sawf.org would have read his articles) to give us his perspective.It will be a delight to hear him.
The concert part , I will leave it to Humdinger and / arasi to decide.
I could get some fine singers from Dharwar for you though.If the member from the Godkhindi Clan is still around here, we could ask him to request his uncle Venkatesh Godhkhindi to Play Bansuri for us.
Anyway humdinger, the ball is in your court.

humdinger · Post by **humdinger** » 11 Dec 2007, 22:18

arasi, thanks a lot for the offer....!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Dec 2007, 23:17

We would like to continue our tradition of holding house concerts--which took a hiatus a few years ago.The offer was made a year ago. Let's have another true rasikas concert in Bengaluru!

Spring cuckoo, you will truly be missed if Cool manages to get one of them from the 'woodwind' family...

braindrain · Post by **braindrain** » 12 Dec 2007, 09:40

All these Chennai Rasika meet makes me jealous. Let us have one for the Bengaluru Rasikas. I can volunteer / contribute / host.. Looking forward to it..

BD

humdinger · Post by **humdinger** » 12 Dec 2007, 11:55

Cool ji, thanks a lot for the track, an excellent rendition indeed!

And the ball is already rolling now! I am sure we have a considerable mass of rasikas members in bengaluru.

arasi: i will do whatever i can for the arrangements...pls let me know.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Dec 2007, 12:09

That will be an event to look forward to! Would like to be part of the bangalore-bound gumbal as well, where incidentally I spend the odd-weekend - a little place in the outskirts (on Kanakapura Road)...for those who are willing to travel the distance (20 Kms south west from MG Road), a resonably spacious living room is at your service...or, for those who would prefer an open air ambience, the rather lyrically named Shalimar Bagh with fountains and all can be put to good use- will have to check with the association for the latter though

Let me know, Coolji/Arasi/Humdinger if you could use the space (perhaps for a double header?). The major issue of course is that commuting without your own vehicle is not all that easy esepcially at night...but if we can wind up before 8 you should get buses to Banashankari from where buses and autos are plentifully available. For those who are left behind, a drop to Banashankari/JP Nagar can also be arranged.

I really look forward to meeting Ramana...would be great if he could also being along, his acid-tongued partner from SAWF, one Mr. Parrikar, to whom I am in debt (along with Kulkarniji) for whatever little I understand about Hindsutani Music.

braindrain · Post by **braindrain** » 12 Dec 2007, 13:42

May be we should start a seperate thread on " Bangalore Rasikas mee"

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Dec 2007, 19:43

A late afternoon concert might suit many rasikAs.
Humdinger,
We will keep in touch.
Cool,
I will find out from you on the 16th details about th artistes and possible dates. Barring the first week of February, the rest of the month suits us...

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 21 Jul 2012, 11:13

An interesting article in Hindu dt 20th July in ' Strings of purity ' ref http://www.thehindu.com/search/advanced ... 16.route02
talks about Ustad Abdul Karim Khan an HM exponent who sang a Thyagaraja Kriti. This article covers the manufacturing technique of Tanpura mainly.

Thanjavooran 21 07 2012

And our musicians find it hard to sing in other languages!

Re: And our musicians find it hard to sing in other language