Cleveland Aardhana: A Counterpoint

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 18 Apr 2008, 23:52

Dear coolkapali,
I was very intrigued by your brief but what could be profound observations. Can you elaborate a bit? vkv

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 19 Apr 2008, 01:13

Now Karthik's a friend of mine, I like his khanjira playing and I like him enormously as a person and hence I am always ready to rise up in his defence

.

That said, a friend pointed out an important consideration that I had somehow overlooked. What strikes some (including me) as an overblown concern on the part of sbcricketfan will make complete sense from the perspective of say, a professional khanjira or any other upapakavadyam player. Few of them have been featured in Cleveland over the years. As the premier Carnatic music festival outside India, it would be nice if the Aradhana acted equitably towards all "players" in the Carnatic scene. In general, upapakavadyam players have to be very talented to make it to the concert platform. Also, they are the ones who get dropped for budgetary reasons. For every 10 mridangists, there's 1 khanjira or ghatam vidvan and 0.5 morsing vidvan. It would be nice if due respect is paid to this important class of vidvans.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 19 Apr 2008, 02:01

Dear U_S,
You have answered your own concern with the magic words: "dropped for budgetary reasons"......I am tempted to repeat Bill Clinton's election slogan against Bush Sr: " Its the Economy, stupid". He won the Election but unfortunately here it works against doing the right thing. As a theoretical physicist like you in a slightly mathematical linguo the degrees of freedom are far less than the no. of things we wish to control! ....and the weighting in the merit function is skewed....The result is the Optimization is not perfect by any criterion!......vkv

vigneshbal · Post by **vigneshbal** » 19 Apr 2008, 09:45

Hi.. I think you have a good optimisation problem in hand.. instead of thinking about optimality by technical approach. you can follow a good heuristic approach. My approach to solving will be this, categorise artists - fair way to do will be on the basis of (age, sex and vocal/instrumental) . pick one from each category like male junior, male senior, female junior, female senior etc. Now I assume that you are not bounded by boarding and lodging (which in my opinion is the same for everybody). i assume here that, you are not bounded by costs, for example if artists have more than one concert in US, they may not expect you to bear the full cost of travel etc. But these multi criteria heuristics can be done and good results can be obtained no doubt about that..

May be audience could be given a questionare/ feedback form which contain some questions pertaining to whether they want some artist next year on the basis of performance this year and all that and you can weigh all factors which can be used in your decision making..

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 19 Apr 2008, 18:53

vkv sir,
Only a lowly engineer who looks up with awe and respect at your ilk

, but I get the lingo.

Building on vigneshbal's suggestion here's an idea (warning! can cause headaches for the organizers/accountants)...targeted donations from patrons. The organization can choose the categories. Here's a quick sample list:

1) General (most preferred)
2) Seniors/Emeritii
3) upapakvadyam
4) instrumental music
5) non-Tamil speaking (joke)

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 19 Apr 2008, 20:22

I think sbcricketfan's perspective did not come through mainly due to poor phrasing and tone in his/her posts. (I am the veteran of many a poorly phrased-arguments and can therefore appreciate how important this is!)

Another way of saying it would be that aritsts do many things for the sake of obligations / relationships. They MAY not feel comfortable saying no to the suggestion of accompaniment by an organizer. Secondly as U_S points out professional upapakkavadyam is hardly featured at the aradhana. So it would be good for the Aradhana to make a conscious decision to include a certain minimum no. of professional upapakkavadyam in the first place. They can be NA-based or India-based. The point is to make it a priority and budgetary mechanics will follow.

However I think the business of directed donations would only add to the nightmare and don't agree with that approach. Ultimately the aradhana committee should make the decisions as to who is featured. It shouldn't depend on how much money is found in each bucket.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Apr 2008, 20:30

Took a long time for me to go through this thread. upa (criticism) 'tail' has become longer than the ArAdhanA coverage.
Coolkapali was brief but said it well. Democracy 'works' here, whatever the political or economic state we are in, here in the US--which does not mean that we have to question whatever we think is not fair, to a sickening degree.
It does not matter who says it. What is said is of concern.
There is another angle to it. Kartik plays for his students as well as for seniors and for midstream musicians as well. He does it all throughout the year.
Musicians, big and small, are keen to have upa pakka vAdyams. They themselves ask for them where they can. Can Cleveland afford to bring a dozen players of ghatam and khanjira to the US? The musicians have a house khanjira player who does not have to be paid airfare, lodged or be remunerated. As a member of the hospitality committee, he also acts as server of your dinner, taxi driver, messenger, to mention a few things that he does.
Even if I had stepped on 'his' toe, he would still assist me if I needed help. This is what amazes me in Cleveland. AND, it is not just him, it is a band of youngsters who are busy as beavers, just like the older generation (emulating their parents). This is what they know, and this is what they have been learning, as they grew up with music and the ArAdhanA.
All the concern we have about creating an ideal climate for youngsters to learn CM, excel in it or enjoy listening to it so that CM would flourish for many centuries to come does not make sense when we make a fuss about these things.
Critics about the competitions (mostly parents or their friends) have to pause and think before they post. The committee is more than willing to try and improve on the situation and asks us to send E-mails. Do your bit in improving things by working with the organizers. Unless we give concrete ideas to the committee for making it a better event next year, I am afraid filling the thread with posts on a forum is of no value to anyone.
On the other hand, Kartik and those of his generation who help with the ArAdhanA will continue their work. Why? Because they do not know any better.
And no, I do not know Kartik. I can recognize his parents, but I don't think they would recognize me...

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 19 Apr 2008, 20:39

Improvement is a continuous process. Those who are making suggestions and criticism should come forward to join the organizers in taking up those challenges and improving them to a level it is feasible to implement pratically and monetarily.

appu · Post by **appu** » 19 Apr 2008, 20:42

Just because an artist has not declared himself/herself a professional does not make him/her less of a musician. In Karthik's case his ability to accompany was definitely above standard. The more he performs the better he gets. His layam and talam was absolutely tight and he rose up to the occasion more than once while accompanying Thiruvarur Vaidyanathan.

sbcricketfan's perspective came through loud and clear. He has a major problem with Karthik. Why else would he single him out? My sincere advise to sbcricketfan is "Get over such pettiness" and learn to look at the brighter side of this person. You keep harping about he being part of the organizing committee etc. As an organizer, Karthik rose to all sorts of occasions/problems that were presented. I was there at the Comfort Inn and witnessed it. He was the young lad in the CAC who had the stamina to do the leg work. If the food for the artists did not arrive on time, Karthik would run to help. If gallons of water ahad to be hauled, Karthik was there. Basically a filler to all shortfalls. Stop bitching and move on folks.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 19 Apr 2008, 22:04

vigneshbal wrote:Hi.. I think you have a good optimisation problem in hand.. instead of thinking about optimality by technical approach. you can follow a good heuristic approach. My approach to solving will be this, categorise artists - fair way to do will be on the basis of (age, sex and vocal/instrumental) . pick one from each category like male junior, male senior, female junior, female senior etc. Now I assume that you are not bounded by boarding and lodging (which in my opinion is the same for everybody). i assume here that, you are not bounded by costs, for example if artists have more than one concert in US, they may not expect you to bear the full cost of travel etc. But these multi criteria heuristics can be done and good results can be obtained no doubt about that..

May be audience could be given a questionare/ feedback form which contain some questions pertaining to whether they want some artist next year on the basis of performance this year and all that and you can weigh all factors which can be used in your decision making..

Your suggestions are good & welcome. I am picking yours as an EXAMPLE to many others who are coming up with excellent observations, suggestions etc. However, I wish to point out that the cost of each artist sponsored by CAC is close to 5000 U.S.Dollars & THE LOCAL SPONSORS OF CONCERTS IN North America ONLY pay the expenses for travel, lodging, fees etc. CAC group does not get anything finacial out of the extra concerts the artists may perform while they are here. Consequently this becomes an overwhelming factor in choosing artists with respect to whether they are in the MUST group like main artist, violin & mridangam. However attempts are constantly made to get Upa-Pakkavadyams over the years & many leading ones have participated iver the years. A year by year calculation has to be incorporated in thes choices.
As I wrote you every one of the suggestions will be examined, studied, & implemented subject to the limitations of various kinds as you can appreciate.
You are absolutely right. This is a very good optimisation problem! vkv

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Apr 2008, 22:27

Arasi's post # 57 says it all in the most practical way. That is the reality on the ground. Other suggestions belong to "wouldn't be great if it is that way" category which are very sound and honorable as well ( there is a lot of truth to what Always_Evolving says, again that is reality on the ground and lot of merit to U_S' suggestions )

Let us hope sbcricketfan brings himself to that level of suggestion making rather than the implied tone 'These Cleveland Aradhana organizers can not do anything right, they are idiots who are there only to make themselves and their close knit clique bigger and more powerful.' That is what is annoying about his attitude. There is a huge difference between "suggestions" and "accusations" and I do not think it is our responsibility to interpret and recast his "accusations" into "suggestions".

Back to the point at hand, I do not think they want to turn the cleveland aradhana concerts into a platform for NA trained kajira players to play in the main league. Would we request that for concerts in Chennai. I can easily see a senior artist allowing an upcoming percussion player to play for him if it is a one off concert somewhere but if it is a fairly significant concert in front a bigger audience, I do not think they will do that normally. Cleveland Aradhana prime time concert is as high as it gets in NA and why would they want to do experiments in that grand stage? Karthik has grown to a point where using him in a concert would not be considered an experiment.

Having said all that, are there numerous Kanjira students in N.A. How many are there who are sort of in the same league as Karthik in NA?

vigneshbal · Post by **vigneshbal** » 19 Apr 2008, 23:35

to Sri VKV

Actually i am not fully aware of your constraint and have nothing to do with CAC, I am in India, just technically i pointed out my observations. You will have to rethink the entire strategy like pricing strategy and advertisements/sponsor sharing expenses with sabhas around US etc, if you feel some of the concerns expressed here are fair. Have a tough job ahead.... All the best !! Wish you all sucess....

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 20 Apr 2008, 01:40

Dear Vigneshbal,
Thanks for taking the time & your interest. Many times persons removed from the actual scene have a BETTER perspective & can see things better. I thank you on my behalf as well the other members of the CAC. vkv

komalangi · Post by **komalangi** » 20 Apr 2008, 04:16

If Karthik has played the concerts that he did as deserving artist that he is and not because he is related to someone or works hard for the festival can someone from the aradhana committee put and end to this misery and bickering. If the artists have not complained, which it does not seem so, end of story. I fail to see the problem with nepotism/favoritism if someone is deserving. This does not deserve democratic treatment.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 20 Apr 2008, 07:30

komalangi wrote:If Karthik has played the concerts that he did as deserving artist that he is and not because he is related to someone or works hard for the festival can someone from the aradhana committee put and end to this misery and bickering. If the artists have not complained, which it does not seem so, end of story. I fail to see the problem with nepotism/favoritism if someone is deserving. This does not deserve democratic treatment.

I am writing this as a member of the CAC as komalangi feels that a post from one of them will put an end to "this misery and bickering".
I HAVE KNOWN KARTHIK from the day he was born & his parents obviously from many years before that. I am one of the founders of Bharathi Society in USA- in NYC- & his father was the founder of Bharathi Manram in Canada; He has been the mainstay of ALL activities: CM, TEMPLES, EVEN HUMANITARIAN ACTIVITIES LIKE TSUNAMI RELIEF+ COUNTLESS NUMBER OF OTHER CHARITABLE ACTIVIITIES FOR WELL OVER 35 YEARS. Besides his parents are the most orthodox & religious Hindus I know- I am not a religious person myself. From what I know they are not even capable of thinking along these lines.
Regarding his musical training, abilities, & activities as someone who has been listening to CM FOR MORE THAN 50 YEARS his Kanjira playing & musical acumen is of a good concert level standard. His Guru Srimushnam Raja Rao is proud of his abilities & I can also share the following about Raja Rao's sensibilities with this example: I MYSELF am a fan of H.S.Sudindra(one of his students from Bangalore who has since played at Cleveland Aradhana) & as R.R. is one of the tecnical experts relied on by the orgainsers for their technical opinion & suggestions. For four years R.R. did not either recommend or propose H.S.S. because he felt he should excuse himself where persons in a close relationship with him. In other words everyone in CAC bends over backwards to avoid any suggestion or suspicion of this sort.
But then how does it happen?
1)It happens because the main artist requests it. As has been pointed out before almost every artist considers CLEVELAND A MAJOR VENUE TO present their best and a good upa pakka vadyam DEFINITELY enhances the concert a notch.
2) As they say it does not require "ROCKET SCIENCE" to know that the organisers have to be very selective with regards to Economics as well as artistically speaking. Incidentally Karthik is not the only one from N.A. There is a slew of such persons like rohan & a ghatam player whose name I forget just now(shows how much I get involved with relations, nepotism, favouritism etc)+ several others from North America who are participating in concerts of major artists. It is far easier to have a "Better Bench" if the artists are in N.A. & do not cost the festival dearly(bec. they cannot afford it).
3) I consider it an insult to even imply that Sangitha Kalanidhis, & other leading Vidwans/Vidushis just inlclude persons like Karthik to curry favour with CAC & THE ORGANISERS.
4) Karthik does not need Kanjira playing at Cleveland Festival for name or fame. He is an exceptionally nice example of a person from North America who is upholding the BEST in our culture, Tradition & Music. I wish we had lot more Karthiks in North America so we do not waste our time and energies discussing trivialities. vkv
Just corrected a few Typos. I am sure there are others!

sbcricketfan · Post by **sbcricketfan** » 20 Apr 2008, 20:31

Sbcricketfan has a personal issue with Karthik'

Nonsense, as I admitted. I hardly know him nor am I a musician. In fact I did compliment his many qualities.

" Visiting vidwans request his service"

This can never be verified and I leave it to the conscience of the musicians who" request: his talents.
Why don't they "request" Ravi Balasubramnian who I am told is a wonderful upapakkavadhya player? In how many senior concerts did he play over the years?
Again, there is no point in prosecution and defense arguments. karthik's cas was used only as an example.
All I am trying to say is if NA born artists are serious about pursuing CM and making a mark or even making it a profession, Cleveland or any other organization in NA for that matter should not be used as the vehicle. These organizations are just operating to promote " Chennai/ South Indian" artists in NA. Period. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't make tall claims that they are helping NA born kids or encouraging them to puruse CM seriously etc and rip their parents' pockets. I am sure the parents and their children will learn the bitter lesson in dure course. But the sooner the btter.
For all their backpatting, Cleveland or any other organization in NA would have served some purpose if they had produced at least half dozen Indian kids over 30 years who purused music seriously enough, based on the "encouragement" by these organizations and not struggle with medical school or buisness school and end up in jobs that landed them in serious stress. Or show me some artists who regularly feature in India based on the "platform" provided by Cleveland etc.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 20 Apr 2008, 21:29

sbcfan: Just chill out. Do not cast aspersions on CAC. Rome was not built in a day nor will our NA kids will become practicing musicians if we do not create an environment that is stable and a continuing process. CAC's efforts are a continuing process and is not perfect. Whereas 200 million people in India are fans of carnatic music, what we have is a handful of south indians trying to emulate carnatic music to their kids. What is the percentage of young musicians becoming entertainers in India and take that percentage and caculate how many musicians can be developed in NA. Sir, give your concrete bullet points of suggestions without casting aspersion on anybody as it is not helping the situation? Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

kanthimadi · Post by **kanthimadi** » 21 Apr 2008, 02:02

As they say it does not require "ROCKET SCIENCE" to know that the organisers have to be very selective with regards to Economics as well as artistically speaking

.
You have hit where it hurts most. As an organizer, quite comparbale to Cleveland actually, I have experienced this more than once. To cite one incident: I once arranged a concert by a senior visiting artist and told frankly that I had a total budget of 900$. The artist asked me to fix violin an mridangam and I got a violinist for a throw away price since that person said ' I don't care. Give me what you want or don't pay me anything. It is another damn concert". This shows the dedication which will show up in the quality of playing after all.
As for mridangam I contacted a young gifted player who said he will not play for a price which he quoted. It was quite modest and he also told me that he puts in as much practice and attention to his art as any musician and didn't want to "sell" it cheaply. I told the main artist about this dilemma and was told to find someone who is "cheap". Some names were also suggested to me. I contatced one of them who readily agreed to play for "free". Obviously the quality of the concerts suffered but the main artist got what was expected namely money. I was upset but didn't care since the audicence cared little. In fact some very senior female artists from India have told me when I suggested the young mridangist's name" we can get mridangists from Chennai for 50$. That is what we pay them when we bring them with us"
The golden word is economy,economy,economy; not quality

sbcricketfan · Post by **sbcricketfan** » 21 Apr 2008, 02:26

You keep harping about he being part of the organizing committee etc. As an organizer, Karthik rose to all sorts of occasions/problems that were presented. I was there at the Comfort Inn and witnessed it. He was the young lad in the CAC who had the stamina to do the leg work. If the food for the artists did not arrive on time, Karthik would run to help. If gallons of water ahad to be hauled, Karthik was there. Basically a filler to all shortfalls.

This proves my point once again. So this is why he features in any slots, concerts he wants. just admit it and move on. After all it is better to be honest and frank than try to silence critics.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Apr 2008, 03:03

sbcricketfan: You seem to be bent on winning the argument on debate points and not on reality. You are picking one item but leaving out other items that may contradict your accusations. The purpose here is not a dry debate to determine the winner in this debate of words and move on. It is a discussion on the actions with a view for VKV to implement any suggestions, if at all possible.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 21 Apr 2008, 03:08

Dear V,
You are RIGHT ON. Thanks. vkv

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Apr 2008, 04:39

Dear sbcricketfan
You seem to have struck out !
Now move away from the field so that other players may continue the game

sadananthan · Post by **sadananthan** » 21 Apr 2008, 09:27

sbcricketfan asks

Or show me some artists who regularly feature in India based on the "platform" provided by Cleveland etc.

I did some internet search on NA based artists and got this about Rohan Krishnamoorthy. He has accompanied all senior artists ( T.N.Krishnan through Ravikiran) in CHENNAI and has won the Yuvakalabharathy and kashyap awards in CHENNAI. He is the only artist playing Indian instrument to be selected by USA Today in its ALL USA Academic Team twice for his academics as well as art. My daughter was nominated for this three times but was not selected and she says it is a big deal. Rohan is the only US based artist perhaps to perform in front of the President of India in his office in Delhi. In addition he has won numerous awards, fellowships, Best Student Paper award in an international meeting, all for his mridangam skills. He has been interviewed by NPR, again perhaps a "first" for a mridangam artist.

I AM SURE CLEVELAND CONTRIBUTED SOMETHING IN HIS SPECTACULAR GROWTH AT SUCH A YOUNG AGE. SBCRICKETFAN MAY NOT BE AWARE OF THIS. I SUGGEST THAT HE READ HIS WEB SITE!

kns · Post by **kns** » 21 Apr 2008, 09:31

Kalpana_CM,

actually i am aware of that post and in fact it validates this (i.e) she won the vocal concert competition last year, she was not allowed to compete in that category again this year.

My son has been competing against some of the same kids that you called names of - by the way, thank your luck for not posting my son's name, you would have been in real legal trouble by now - each year and hasn't won't prizes yet. But we, neither me/my wife nor my son can even think of asking the organizers to reduce the bar by preventing these extremely talented kids from competing again. We prefer our kids to compete against the best every year thus setting a high bar for themselves, to us "cut corners" for them by the means that you are suggesting.

If you are upset that your kid is not winning prizes going against these kids, either you should do whatever more needed to raise your kid's talent to be on par with those kids who win prizes or gracefully not compete at all. Again don't try to vent your frustration against these kids. By mentioning names you will get into some real legal trouble.

By the way you are right, you may get the names of these kids by google'ing, afterall google is a search engine that may pull these names from aradhana.org like sites where listing the winners is likely be within their rights - since they conduct the competitions. But, that doesn't give you a right to automatically post all those names and associate words like "violator" et al.

Kalpana_CM wrote:KNS - This is FYI directly from the girl in picture.

see page 2 - cleveland aradhana 2008 discussions - author sahanavasud

As the parent of the girl who won the concert competition(vocal) last year
and participated in 3 categories(Vocal kriti, Violin Kriti and concert compettion violin)
this year, I would like to clarify this:

This was what I understood from the organizers that they would like to do to ensure fairness which I thought was quite nice.When prizes were decided in the categories she participated, first she would be set aside. Among the remaining contestants, they will choose first, second and third prizes. Then they will decide where she fits, if at all she fits. This may result in multiple first,second or third prizes depending on where she falls, but no other child is deprived of the prize because of her.

The organizers also told us that she can not participate in vocal concert competition any more.

For the record, she got a second prize in vocal-kriti, special prize in concert compettion violin and no prize in Violin Kriti.

Cleveland aradhana in general and the compettitions in particular inspire my daughter very much. We attended the aradhana for the past seven years, out of which we stayed for all the 10days for 5 years. I have many anecdotes about her musical inspirations during the festival about which I would not want to write about in a public domain at this point. As a parent, I would like do to anything that inspires my child to pursue more music as long as it is not illegal/immoral/unethical.

At a personal level, I don't give any importance to these competitions and prizes, as I consider music as an art that requires
a lifetime of dedication and winning/losing does not matter at all in the long run. Still my child competes because
1. She wants to compete
2. She is really inspired after that to do more.

I am not regular reader, So I may not post any replies,sorry about that.

====================
coming to names, it is already in google search, if not how can anyone remember any of these names...just search google, cleveland aradhana winners and you also will find these names and many more

==============================

Not to deviate from the topic:
Let the committee follow the rules it sets up - it is posted in their website that concert competition winner cannot participate...and period!
Committee should also introduce a rule that if one gets a first or a second prize, they have to move on to the next level.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Apr 2008, 10:05

Again, thank your luck that you didn't include my son's name.

kns, let us not go there, even by implication. Of course it is your free choice but do not drag this forum into such things. We are all here on a voluntary basis with a common purpose of enjoying and learning about CM and related topics. That is where it begins and that is where it ends.

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 21 Apr 2008, 18:51

Ah me..........hey North American Indians !!!!!!...........u make a hue and cry over nothing..........have u heard about this small place called Mylapore in Chennai..........well the Mecca of Carnatic Music if you ask me..............from where you get most of your artistes.....well over here too i hear there is so much of POLITICS...compared to which ur issues are pea nuts.....but tats between Sabhas , Secretaries and Performers.......most of the listeners just come listen and go happy............

my suggestion....................ENJOY Music...................it shldnt be a reason to fight or cultivate misunderstanding.......

MY God...North American musicians!!!!..........think beyond name and fame...............there r so many talented kids here in India.......who can give their seniors a ride for their money.........but cant get a platform...................so many professional musicians here....who also work so that they can make their ends meet..........but who very sincerely pursue their passion................but fortunately or unfortunately they do not share our North Amrican Friends' mentality............( i mean they are either tolerant or too busy to point out mistakes or as in most cases too insignificant to be taken seriously................)

Music for music's sake.............fellow members of this forum......let that be our guiding principle...............in front of that divine flame.....lets not give way to such small mindedness..................

Cool Kapali.

vigneshbal · Post by **vigneshbal** » 21 Apr 2008, 19:22

coolkapali wrote:Ah me..........hey North American Indians !!!!!!...........u make a hue and cry over nothing..........have u heard about this small place called Mylapore in Chennai..........well the Mecca of Carnatic Music if you ask me..............from where you get most of your artistes.....well over here too i hear there is so much of POLITICS...compared to which ur issues are pea nuts.....but tats between Sabhas , Secretaries and Performers.......most of the listeners just come listen and go happy............

my suggestion....................ENJOY Music...................it shldnt be a reason to fight or cultivate misunderstanding.......

MY God...North American musicians!!!!..........think beyond name and fame...............there r so many talented kids here in India.......who can give their seniors a ride for their money.........but cant get a platform...................so many professional musicians here....who also work so that they can make their ends meet..........but who very sincerely pursue their passion................but fortunately or unfortunately they do not share our North Amrican Friends' mentality............( i mean they are either tolerant or too busy to point out mistakes or as in most cases too insignificant to be taken seriously................)

Music for music's sake.............fellow members of this forum......let that be our guiding principle...............in front of that divine flame.....lets not give way to such small mindedness..................

Cool Kapali.

500% true.. Lets move on and close this topic once and for all... thats the best way out...

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 21 Apr 2008, 20:39

No one is forcing you to engage in a discussion that you seem to not be interested in. But why do you think that we don't have the right to discuss problems and potential solutions in something that is very dear to NA Indians.

You don't have to read something you aren't interested in.

The argument that your "problems" are far more important than our "problems" really doesn't matter. Pray tell, what is our mentality? Your generalizations are far too sweeping to be taken seriously.

vigneshbal wrote:
coolkapali wrote:Ah me..........hey North American Indians !!!!!!...........u make a hue and cry over nothing..........have u heard about this small place called Mylapore in Chennai..........well the Mecca of Carnatic Music if you ask me..............from where you get most of your artistes.....well over here too i hear there is so much of POLITICS...compared to which ur issues are pea nuts.....but tats between Sabhas , Secretaries and Performers.......most of the listeners just come listen and go happy............

my suggestion....................ENJOY Music...................it shldnt be a reason to fight or cultivate misunderstanding.......

MY God...North American musicians!!!!..........think beyond name and fame...............there r so many talented kids here in India.......who can give their seniors a ride for their money.........but cant get a platform...................so many professional musicians here....who also work so that they can make their ends meet..........but who very sincerely pursue their passion................but fortunately or unfortunately they do not share our North Amrican Friends' mentality............( i mean they are either tolerant or too busy to point out mistakes or as in most cases too insignificant to be taken seriously................)

Music for music's sake.............fellow members of this forum......let that be our guiding principle...............in front of that divine flame.....lets not give way to such small mindedness..................

Cool Kapali.
500% true.. Lets move on and close this topic once and for all... thats the best way out...

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 21 Apr 2008, 22:34

mri_fan,

Perhaps you are a bit too hard on coolkapali. He/She has brought an interesting perspective to the situation.

coolkapali,

Very Well Said!!!!!!100% True.

kns · Post by **kns** » 22 Apr 2008, 00:39

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Again, thank your luck that you didn't include my son's name.
kns, let us not go there, even by implication. Of course it is your free choice but do not drag this forum into such things. We are all here on a voluntary basis with a common purpose of enjoying and learning about CM and related topics. That is where it begins and that is where it ends.

You comments are taken in good sprit. I had no choice but imply it since I strongly feel bringing out and posting other kids' names and calling them "violators" - on top of it justifying - is wrong and unnecesary for the main topic. This forum should discourage that type of posting/behavior too. If folks(like Kalpana_CM) want to present their personal opinions regarding the aradhana competitions, let them do so without referring/posting names of other kids and without personal slandering.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Apr 2008, 01:16

kns: Understood. Thanks. Kalpana_CM, please take note. Let us agree to end that route in our discussions with this post.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 22 Apr 2008, 01:31

Dear coolkapali,
I appreciate & thank you for your inputs which I find useful & fascinating. One of the many things- apart from the MAIN SUBJECT which is mostly tangentially covered if at all, like this posting itself for example!- I have learnt since arriving in USA is that just taking a plane, arriving& living here does not alter many in an anthropological sense a la Margaret Mead. vkv

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 22 Apr 2008, 01:41

Hello EVERYONE,
I need to get in touch with Sharanya Shivakumar (hope I spelt her name right- she is such a nice person she will excuse me anyway if the spelling is not correct) a previous winner in Vocal competition at Cleveland Aradhana. Appreciate any help. Thanks, vkv

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 22 Apr 2008, 05:09

Her dad reads the forum and can be reached at the following email address:

Sivakumar Vidhya <[email protected]>

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 22 Apr 2008, 06:49

mri_fan, Thank you.vkv

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 22 Apr 2008, 09:56

Moderators

Please lock this thread.

koolkapali is 100% right. If people have misgivings about CAC let them sort it out among themseleves . Let rasikas.org be not the site to settle personal scores. With litigation happy people around let's not get into this muddle. If CAC wants the views of rasikas, let them start a BB in their site .

Let's not waste time on this.

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 22 Apr 2008, 17:07

Hi vkv sir........from these postings i understand that you are one of the organisers..........watever be the case.......i think carnatic music owes it to Cleveland committee for their undertaking of this venture........

Mri fan.........i never asked u not to discuss......it was only a humble suggestion.......and i am sure most of them will agree with me abt my observations about NA Indians........they r not accusations, mind you, but OBSERVATIONS........

By the way VKV, when do u guys finalise the Cleavland artistes?,,,,,,,,am just curious....u can ignore to answer this.

Cheers folks.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 22 Apr 2008, 17:38

coolkapali...................please.......................don't.......................keep..............using...............so.................many............periods (full stops)..............in..............your...............posts..........It..............makes...........them..........hard..........to.........read..... ....and...............is.............an................unnecssary..............increase........in............entropy.

It would be better to type a sentence like this.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Apr 2008, 17:54

I think raju is right!
If you agree vkv then we can close this thread. Folks can still send email suggestions to you. No need to prlong a useless agony!

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 22 Apr 2008, 19:10

vasanthakokilam wrote

Having said all that, are there numerous Kanjira students in N.A. How many are there who are sort of in the same league as Karthik in NA?

vk: I don't think the aradhana should be experimentally or out-of-turn featuring students to share the stage with maestros. For one thing it could end up being a confidence-downer for the student! But I think there are established UPV players even in north America -- either settled here and having other main professions OR who live/travel to NA for significant periods of time. One who comes to mind is Ganesh Kumar ganeshkanjira.com, and of course his famous guru Subash Chandran is often found here on tour. On a separate note Subash sir's konnakkol has to be heard to be believed and it would be great if the aradhana could feature him!

vanajan · Post by **vanajan** » 22 Apr 2008, 19:26

kns wrote:If you are upset that your kid is not winning prizes going against these kids, either you should do whatever more needed to raise your kid's talent to be on par with those kids who win prizes or gracefully not compete at all.

FYI : She has her own child's name in that list and a few others from their group.

I know the quarter from which both noises in this thread come from and the real reasons, though I have confirmation only in this case.

Vanaja.

sanskritscholar · Post by **sanskritscholar** » 22 Apr 2008, 22:01

mri_fan wrote:Show me friends who are aghast at Karthik playing, and I'll show you flying pigs. Of the 45 some concerts, he played for 7. ... That to me suggests that there's clearly something else that you're jealous of.

Jealousy may well be a factor, but mri_fan, your logic dictates that whoever started this topic is a flying pig!

Just trying to lighten the mood. No offense meant to anybody.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Apr 2008, 22:10

manyE uttaravAdinaH uDDInavarAhAn |
(I conceive the respondents to be the flying ***gs

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 22 Apr 2008, 23:15

coolkapali wrote:By the way VKV, when do u guys finalise the Cleavland artistes?,,,,,,,,am just curious....u can ignore to answer this.
Cheers folks.

Dear C K,

Let me try to summarize the whole process as various choices have to be made with an attempt to represent as many categories as possible fairly:

VERY BROADLY- I may miss some categories as I am not comfortable typing myself; no longer have a secretary to do it!- The CATEGORIES CAN BE CLASSIFIED AS : 1) Well established Leading Popular artists. 2) Artists not that well known for various reasons but very good . 3) YOUNG, Promising Artistes who are on the verge of breaking thru' to be major ones. 4) Young promising artistes who show promise. 5) Senior Artistes that deserve greater recognition for their service over a long career. 6) Artists that are being honoured at the festival each year & those who are honoured in Chennai as they are unable to travel. This list p[ertained to the ones from India. 8) PROMINENT OR NOT SO PROMINENT ARTISTS touring North America at the time of the Festival who are avilable & amenable to perform during the time period.

With respect to North American Artists the categories can be considered different. TYPICALLY there are two major categories: 1) Those who pretty much have grown up in North America. Many of them usually start in the competition arena, graduate to performing at the festival at various times & slots, and hopefully become major artists. VVVS especially very carefully monitors, charts, & asks for opinions of experts( the leading vidwans who come to the festival) etc & tries to allocate more suitable slots to encourage & recognise them. In addition he has successfully managed to get almost ALL the leading Vidwans& Vidushis to teach thru' SKYPE in an interactive fashion to a group close to thirty officially with any one else FREE to download the lessons. To give an idea of just HIS TIME for this effort: As I am in Chennai & attend the classes whenever possible myself the amount of time he expends is at least close to 1000 man hours- at 100 dollars/hour you can imagine the dollar equivalent for his Donation in this area as he does it for free apart from all the equipment as his upstairs computer room is the studio-. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME such a massive undertaking has occured &any one interested in exposing&teaching persons in North America at this level- it does not happen even in Chennai- 2) Artists who have migrated to North America & settled down here.

These apply to Vocalists, Instrumentalists, Pakka-Upa Pakka vdyam players. In addition there will at least be a Nadhaswaram & two veena concerts evey year as well as Harikatha as often as possible.

As the CATEGORIES are too many EVERY YEAR all these may not be fulfilled. But if you average over 3 year period say this is what is being attempted. As to who does the choosing there is a committee where the major weighting is given to at least two leading Vidwans. I cannot provide the names as I do not have time to contact every one & get every one's permission etc; Frankly I have full confidence in the members myself. EVERY ONE INVOLVED IS A VOLUNTEER & THE WHOLE THING WILL BE UNTENABLE IF IT HAS TO BE RUN LIKE A PUBLIC CORPORATION WITH STOCK HOLDERS. ANYONE CAN PROPOSE ANY ARTIST'S NAME & IT WILL BE CONSIDERED. Lots of persons provide inputs based on their attendence at various concerts.

The attempt is to finalise the artists as far as possible after the Chennai Music season but its not always possible as themesfor each year tends to be different & accomodations have to made for various reasons. Hope I have provided some Signal in addition to Noise (in electronic terms but this forum being musical will understand). vkv

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 22 Apr 2008, 23:43

cmlover wrote:I think raju is right!
If you agree vkv then we can close this thread. Folks can still send email suggestions to you. No need to prlong a useless agony!

Dear cmlover,

I find only one person so far- he sent his suggestions he made here by email to me at my request- has emailed me. So I feel persons prefer to express themselves in this forum. As I do not judge others (at least when I am in a conscious state!) & am not affected by being damned or praised by persons who do not know me this hopefully will be a venue not just for venting but once in a while good things can happen?! vkv

rajeeram · Post by **rajeeram** » 23 Apr 2008, 02:45

vkv sir,
I truly admire your spirit. Hopefully your sincerity is reciprocated by fellow rasikas and we can maintain a sense of decorum here in the forum that is illuminating not only in terms of music but also abounds with people truly worth emulating.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 23 Apr 2008, 03:14

Dear Rajeeram,
Thanks very nuch for your kind& uplifting sentiments. I am optimistic good things evlove eventually when intelligent persons discuss things honestly. vkv

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Apr 2008, 03:31

dear vkv
I appreciate your sentiments. As long as you are getting feedback here or through email it is Ok. We have to be careful that no personal attacks are made and names bandied about. This Forum is for the promotion of CM and not for venting personal frustrations under a cloak of anonymity. As you have stated individual cases of miscarriage of justice should be addressed directly to you and the CAC. We do appreciate your frankness and the little anecdotes of how volunteers are pitching in at all levels. Especially all of us appreciate the commitment of VVS to CM both physically and materially. All of us also appreciate the free distribution of the Music Lessons which will benefit innumerable number of youngsters all over the globe.

May I also make a few recommendations:

1. Your CM advisory Panel (CM experts) be time limited so that there is a turnover of vidvaans from time to time. The panel may also include youngsters who know the pulse of the younger generations

2. These experts may also be chosen from the different regions of SI (apart from Chennai to include Karnatka, Kerala and Andhra)

3. You may also start including some HM in the program and competitions so that our youngsters may have a total exposure to Indian Music though the emphasis will be on CM. Further in many areas in NA, CM teachers are not available but HM teachers may be available and we may like to migrate those students into CM by encouraging them to participate at Cleveland.

4. The CAC also may have contacts (?links) with MA, AIR, Thiruvaiyaru, Hamsadhvani, JayaTV (margazi and navaratri utsavam) etc to recommend up and coming NA performers (both youngsters as well as adults) who may be included in their programs.

5. Most of our NA cities have a CM cultural association and to my knowledge they seldom host NA performers. This is sad. CAC should act as a liasson for good NA performers to tour NA so that they are better known locally. And perhaps we can even arrange VCD's available of good performances sold at nominal costs (since many will perform for the love of CM and not for profit)

6. Last I would encourage the youngsters to participate vigorously in this Forum exchanging ideas and participating in the discussions. We can also implement if there is interest a 'face loading' program in the Registration Profile so that they may be better known within NA when they move around.

Folks

Do discuss these ideas and suggest additions modifications if any as you feel.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Apr 2008, 06:56

A comedic interlude...

On closing the topic etc. as long as there is no abusive behavior, the following is what normally happens in our threads

Wisdom from the Seinfeld show...

Susan: Can we change the subject, please?
George: Why? What's wrong with the subject? This is a bad subject?
Susan: No, fine. If you wanna keep talking about it, we'll talk about it.
George: It's not that I want to keep talking about it, just think that the subject should resolve itself based on its own momentum.
Susan: Well, I didn't think that it had any momentum.

later...

George: Yeah. Not only that, this is what she said to me, "Can we change the subject?"
Jerry: See, now that I don't care for.
George: Right. I mean, we're on a subject. Why does it have to be changed?
Jerry: It should resolve of its own volition.
George: That's exactly what I said, except I used the word "momentum".
Jerry: Momentum - same thing.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Apr 2008, 08:03

VK,
You make us all feel so much better!