DD Podigai telecast of Ganesh Kumaresh Violin Programme - Ju

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 11 Jul 2008, 08:48

Call me orthadox....but aradhana is a solemn occassion and a great amount of reverence should be displayed at His Samadhi....this was conspicous by its absence.....

On the question of Sivamani's dress....his head gear looks like a traditional unjivrithi thalaipagai..is that it?

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 11 Jul 2008, 09:22

Thiruvaiaru is not the traditional Mylapore where a few learned people go in the evening to listen to "classica music" and discuss the difference between Manji and Mukari.. or the other few who go just to listen "kurai ondrm illai" and "sambo mahadeva"â€¦ look at the crowd in the video at thiruvaiaruâ€¦. Some of these people are farmers and if drums sivamani can get them to nod.. that is the least of our problemsâ€¦

dhanyAsi
You seem to be having some elitist ideas about music. Mylapore or any other place where 'Aha' 'vAh vAh' crowds are in plenty, is not where true meaning of music is found. Those farmers - whom you mention with contempt - are, probably, the true connoisseurs of music. Those discussing the difference between Manji and Mukhari are like those chemists who refer to water as 'HO2'. Neither they are aware of the true purpose of music nor can distinguish the trash that goes in the name of music. But in order in taste water you have to come down to elemental level and not remain atomic.
I have been once a witness to Aradhana 10 years back. In spite of all those nonsense perpetrated by 'that' gentleman - no names - there are silent spectators - old and young sitting silently in a corner absorbed in themselves to glean the left overs - real unchavRtti - and they subsist on such unchavRttis.
If you think these sabhAs are the one which rear music, You are sadly mistaken. A thousand sabhAs like MA cannot bring out one true talent - which is beyond the reach these glittering crowds.
Is the cooing of cuckoo in Manji rAga or Mukhari? Or it is Chapu Tala or Triputa?

Come down to Mother Earth.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 11 Jul 2008, 09:23

dhanyasi wrote:look at the crowd in the video at thiruvaiaruâ€¦. Some of these people are farmers and if drums sivamani can get them to nod.. that is the least of our problemsâ€¦

Appreciate the fresh contrary perspective. But I think you are jumping to conclusions here based on appearances and prejudices. I am sure most of the folks attending are very attuned to carnatic music although they may enjoy a circus once in a while

Ramam · Post by **Ramam** » 11 Jul 2008, 09:23

Branding Thygaraja saintly and bringing bakthi to the fore is all good but not complete his composition do have a teasing and tiltating music in it . Andholika raga invention and song and its content alone is enough. Music of Tygagaraja and that of Dikhsitar carry large musical pleasure which is regularly forgotten while branding them as bhatkas. I watched the said program. I felt that sivamani and others on their percussion played hindolam right thru their avartana, it did not disappear. Mama and mammi have done it a pariticular way this is one more of the kind. I am not sure mama amd mami would have opposed this renditions. They (sivamani etc) perhaps cannot contribute better than this as an art in homage to the greatest composer.

By the way the Unni program ahead of this had enough of "ulzh... ulzh ...ezhezh" , his style perhaps cultivated after the film stint. I do not know any one wrote about the poor performance of now not so pathantara of the legendary Ramanathan.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 11 Jul 2008, 09:27

Something that doesn 't seem right to me:

Are we saying that percussionists have a minor role in the Aradhana? Would that be disrespecting a whole class of artistes?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Jul 2008, 09:34

sureshvv, Not sure what made you think that, but if it is the discussion about not encouraging elaborate thani, I think it is not about disrespecting a whole class of artists but it is all about respecting thyagaraja. That is the primary point of the aradhana and so it makes more sense to sing a lot of his compositions, preferably the rarer ones that never gets sung in concerts. ( this point is not about sivamani or thavil or anything specific but whether elaborate full bench thani is appropriate for the aradhana ).

dhanyasi · Post by **dhanyasi** » 11 Jul 2008, 09:47

vgvindan,
I think you got my post wrong.. I am not saying by any means the crowd at Mylapore are the best listners with great wisdom, however I do think that chennai where the best of the music thrives today... It can be a cliche that carnatic music is every where in the cuckoo voice, in the cow's moo etc but understanding the nuanses carnatic and rendering them to perfection is a completely different ball game.... and suresh, i by no means underestimate the musical knowledge of the people at thiruvaiaru.. my point is very simple...

who are we to comment of sivamani's attire (cap) when we gladly accept a silk saree in thyagarajs's sanadi...
who are we comment on the drums when we accepted the violin replacing the veena and chapu tala replacing the composers choice...

is there a double standard here? we as rasikas have an arbid set of parameters and anything that deviate from that is wrong....

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 11 Jul 2008, 09:53

vgvindan wrote:For Dhaynasi: You seem to be having some elitist ideas about music.

That's exactly what she's not having. On the contrary, Dhanyasi has questioned elitism: s/he says that we refuse to accept this for an ArAdhanai because we are thinking the elitist way, and ponders on who should set the standards, the elitists, or these farmers, who (according to him/her) have enjoyed the ArAdhanai.

Ramam wrote:Andholika raga invention and song and its content alone is enough. Music of Tygagaraja and that of Dikhsitar carry large musical pleasure which is regularly forgotten while branding them as bhatkas. ... They (sivamani etc) perhaps cannot contribute better than this as an art in homage to the greatest composer.

But we want to celebrate creativity of Tyagaraja, not creativity itself.

sureshvv wrote:Are we saying that percussionists have a minor role in the Aradhana? Would that be disrespecting a whole class of artistes?

No, we are not. They need to stress the rhythmic patterns employed by the composers, which will be important to bring out the beauty of many compositions of Syama Sastri's and madhyamakAlams of Dikshithar and Oothukadu, and many chitta svarams of Tyagarajaswamy more completely.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 11 Jul 2008, 10:05

vasanthakokilam wrote:Not sure what made you think that, but if it is the discussion about not encouraging elaborate thani, I think it is not about disrespecting a whole class of artists but it is all about respecting thyagaraja. That is the primary point of the aradhana and so it makes more sense to sing a lot of his compositions, preferably the rarer ones that never gets sung in concerts. ( this point is not about sivamani or thavil or anything specific but whether elaborate full bench thani is appropriate for the aradhana ).

vk... this makes a lot more sense to me. I think we can get a lot more people to agree on this rather than the value of drums or a large single ear ring in carnatic music.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 11 Jul 2008, 10:09

srikant1987 wrote:
sureshvv wrote:Are we saying that percussionists have a minor role in the Aradhana? Would that be disrespecting a whole class of artistes?
No, we are not. They need to stress the rhythmic patterns employed by the composers, which will be important to bring out the beauty of many compositions of Syama Sastri's and madhyamakAlams of Dikshithar and Oothukadu, and many chitta svarams of Tyagarajaswamy more completely.

Hmm... (rubbing chin unconvinced). I agree more with vasanthakokilam's take on this which is, "Yes to 1 and No to 2".

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 11 Jul 2008, 11:01

Those interested may view the discussion on the same subject held in 2006 - here.
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1189&p=1

Please also refer to the copy of email sent by me in Post #3

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 11 Jul 2008, 12:36

dhanyasi wrote:who are we to comment of sivamani's attire (cap) when we gladly accept a silk saree in thyagarajs's sanadi...
who are we comment on the drums when we accepted the violin replacing the veena and chapu tala replacing the composers choice...

Just because people accept silk sarees, you cant accept anything else too. How about musicians performing with minimalist attire? That should be acceptable too just because we accept vidushis who wear silk sarees?

Why are we justifying one wrong with another? No its not hypocritical because the Aradhana is not the place to introduce novelties. It is to pay respects to Thyagaraja and his tradition.

About the drums too, its the same, although you are apparently missing the point. Even the most revered mridangists in the last century have performed with western drums. The Aradhana is not the place, and the music that we witnessed (tavil included) is not the music that is representative of Carnatic music much less of thyagaraja's music.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 11 Jul 2008, 14:15

I think a lot of these "contrarian" opinions have been digressive. As the petition maintains, improvisational and fusion music of the kind witnessed erode the solemnity of the Aradhana. Nobody's discriminating against percussionists; the only reason there are more comments about the thani is that it is available on YouTube, whereas the violin playing is not. Of course, the original poster also complained about the unnecessary alapana of Hindolam preceding breakneck krithi rendition. Also, the excessive jewellery and Sivamani's strange head dress undermine the nature of the Aradhana in a minor but noticeable manner. I would equally condemn a female singer wearing a lavish silk saree with many rings and necklaces as well. We are, in short, protesting against the total lack of sensitivity accorded to the commemoration of the Aradhana and are not whimsically picking on people or being narrow-minded orthodox curmudgeons (as the petition says, such music and attire are acceptable anywhere BUT at the Aradhana).

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 11 Jul 2008, 16:28

May I ask, what seemingly is, a basic question. At Thiruvaiyaru when a musician is singing and playing his instrument, who, pray, tell me, the audience is?

Are they singing for the people who are assembled there? Are they singing for the AIR/DD and Channels? Are they singing for themselves? OR are they singing because they are paying homage to a person? If that be so, who is targeted the audience?

Let the musicians first search themselves about for whose sake they are singing/playing at Aradhana.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 11 Jul 2008, 16:43

Many a time we hear the phrase 'Thyagaraja Araadhanaa is being celebrated' rather than 'Thyagaraja Araadhanaa is being observed'.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 11 Jul 2008, 20:38

About Thyagaraja Aradhana, everyone writes that they are paying homage to the Saint.

Here is someone paying homage to someone of CM fraternity -
http://www.hinduonnet.com/gallery/0277/027702.htm

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Jul 2008, 20:43

Punarvasu,
I don't see why it cannot be called a 'celebration'. Is it because the death anniversary was chosen as the observance? What if it had been his birthday? Would that then become a celebration? The point is, whatever we are 'ceebrating' is tygarAjA's gift of his musical treasure to us. The idea is to celebrate him for bestowing his krutis to humanity. His outpourings about his love for and connection with Divinity is what we hope to celebrate--to keep his compositions alive so that they can inspire us and also our future generations. Two things are achieved here. The preservation and propogation of his music too, in the context of CM.
Just imagine! if we simply observe TyAgarAjA's death, only solemn songs of his should be sung, and not the great pancharatnAs and the joyous expressions of his about the Almighty, because it is a solemn observance! What I mean is, it is not tyAgarAjA the man, but the essence of the man and his work which we celebrate.
As this discussion continues, several things are emerging. As anushri very well explains: he is not questioning the performance itself. You can attend one such concert if you like, or shun it. It is 'where and in what context' it took place that bothered him and others who were there. How out of place the performers were, with their super-fast rendering and the way one of them was dressed. He had no idea where he was playing and what the context was. Would I have been happier if the artiste was traditionally dressed as in taking part in a play and then dressed outrageously the minute he came down the stage? Or, behaved in an outrageous manner? It is not as if the traditionally dressed male and females are any better either-- with their indulgence in silks and ornaments (yes, men included). We also know that it is the TV exposure factor which results in all this.

VK, while I see your point about the sound of the thani, I still feel that what little I saw of it lacked inspiration which suited the occasion.
As for the petition, I wish it were briefer--so that those who receive it get the message straight away. I found that even for the petitioners, it
is long.
One thing is clear. The last thing we want is to witness people making a mockery of tyAgarAjA and his greatness, without being awre of it too, perhaps! Worse still, we are not looking for a popularity show which does not belong at all in a tygarAjA festival, and that too in his home town, as part of the ArAdhanA!

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 11 Jul 2008, 21:02

Arasi,
I felt if it is a birthday we call it a 'jayanthi' and celebrate it; and a death anniversary we observe as 'Araadhanaa'. I dont deny that we do celebrateTyagraja's legacy and his bhakthi and all. Wheither it is a celebratoin or observance the spirit is the same. And as I wrote, in one of my earlier posts, it is an occasion where musicians and music lovers use their vidvat to project the compositions of the great saint and NOT use his compositions to project their own vidwat. That is the bottomline, whether we call it a celebration or observance.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 11 Jul 2008, 23:56

In continuation to my earlier post,
'observance' gives a solemnity to the occasion, 'celebration' gives a gaiety .

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 12 Jul 2008, 00:23

Not sure that everyone is aware of this, but it is customary to celebrate the birthdays of worldly people and the mukthi day for saints.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Jul 2008, 01:07

While I do see your point, Punarvasu--and I am not as cognizant as you are about these matters--my view is: yes, you can observe his death day in a meditative manner, even with upavAsam. Why gather then in thousands and mill around? That too when there is no other designated day to 'celebrate' him en masse? I am not saying that one or the other, or both days have to be observed in tiruvaiyAru. Even if we were to celebrate his birthday, I think there should be dignity and solemnity nonetheless. However, if we cannot gather to remember him and his songs with joy, I don't see the point. Should there be another day of celebration then? He did not die recently for us to 'mourn' him. His death was not the end as it is for us ordinary mortals. He lives on, and that is what I am thinking of. By the way, isn't it a hindu custom to give up mourning (formally) and on the thirteenth day (the day may vary with different groups of people) after the rites and have a day of renewal (Subha svIkAram--different names there too) to pray to the gods and to the ancestors to bless the family and to give them the strength to carry on? Buy new clothes even?

Those who do not make it to the ArAdhanA, and those who do not 'want' to go to the ArAdhanA say that they love being in the sannidhi of tyAgarAjA on other days, and in the quiet atmosphere, they feel cleansed. Some say how they sing there too, and come out feeling exhilarated. I suppose that is the kind of joy I am thinking about...

Suresh,
You say mukti days for great souls are celebrations. It makes sense.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 12 Jul 2008, 01:29

mukti days for great souls are celebrations

That makes sense. But it should not turned into a carnival.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 12 Jul 2008, 01:37

[quote]Any description of the singing by Higgins will be incomplete without a mention of the manner in which he brought out the divinity of the Pancharatna kriti, â€œEndharo Mahanubavulu.â€