sounds of hindustani and carnatic violin playing.

[arunk]

http://www.esnips.com/doc/83456bb2-a68f ... antuvarali

I liked it even though I did feel it was "quite different" as in quite bold - almost experimentative from a cm standpoint. I was able to enjoy it mainly based on the sombre mood set by the raga and its scale.

There were certainly faults etc. (so one cannot say it was technically perfect or close to perfect) but I wouldn't go as far as saying "It is more noise and apasruthi than music". That when comprehended literally comes across brutally uncharitable. Unless of course that I am yet to learn what is good music

Arun

[ganesh_mourthy]

oops I did not at all say that it was noise and apasruthi. the problem is you want to voice yet be discreet , want to point out yet circumvent and insinuate there is only so much of scope for misunderstanding. about my comment on this pantuvarali music go to post no 42.

Ok I again write it here.


About the clips of dwaram I feel that it is more clear notes and less gamakams. But our music evolved a lot after his period with the advent of the Frios . not trios.

But I dont really understate the music of dwaram. The sophisticated cars that we sit and travel is just a development of another car 20 years back. the same applies here. But should we not retain the quality rather than spoiling it.

P.S. the graph went up and up suddenly saturated at one point and I fear it is going down a little bit.

[arunk]

Dear dear Coolkarni,

Again from your list of treasure troves I am not happy with particurly one. It is more noise and apasruthi than music. I dont want to pin point. Dig on to musical instinct and you can make out.

by the by I saw a pic of a smart boy with salt and pepper hair name chennai rasika ( in esnips )who is also 30 year old. who could that be I dont know!

But you clearly said what i quoted (as above - my italics). So do you blame me for "misunderstanding' this ? But I do understand that it was uninitentional in that perhaps it came out more harsh than you intended since in this thread you have been talking about about aural and technical fidelity. If one had to appreciate the piece above, one must compromise there.

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

g_m, you are confusing me as well. I also thought you meant 'noise and apasruthi'. I will have to read the whole thread again at some other time.

[ganesh_mourthy]

I told coolkarni that I am not happy with one particular person from his list. I am afraid, I did not say that I was unhappy with the clip - that is dwaram. Folks you can decipher. And that artiste I mentiontioned was a noisy noisy violin playing by him I dont even like to mention.

I know one artiste famous for his style and shudham. after his concert someone told him that his sounded as good as that another famous person. This cannot be a compliment at all to this person. He only felt bad.

I am sorry I can neither mention that nor this person in this forum.

But this artiste ..........mmmmmmmmm. ... ok ..... coolkarni knows him quite well and shares a good rapport too. this artiste only told me.

[arunk]

Ah I think I get it. But you used "it has more ..." and this was posted after coolji posted the subhapantuvarali piece. Thats why I thought you meant the piece. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Arun

[ganesh_mourthy]

coolkarni who is RKSK

[srikant1987]

I think you've been told this before. R K Shriram Kumar is addressed fondly as RKSK by many people here.

[coolkarni]

..

[ganesh_mourthy]

I did not know that you shared a rapport with chowdiah too.

Again here by quipping coolkarni is instigating people to pelt me. ;(

Let me take a break and have a kitkat.

[coolkarni]

..

[Shivadasan]

Mysore Chowdaiah was genius both in music and inventiveness. I once heard, I think it was MSG, playing a very short piece, with two fingers on two different strings simultaneously to produce both the swara and its lower octave. I have heard dual swaras plyed on the veena too. Sri. Chowdaiah must have come across this possibility and would have been provoked to invent his 7 stringed violin. This tone is heavenly and majestic and, naturally much better than that of a 4 stringed violin. But playing a 7 stringed violin is extremely difficult because the finger has to be placed exactly on the same place on both the strings. That is, the finger should be perfectly perpendicular to both the strings. It is a herculean task to do it all the time, throughout the concert. And that is why ‘apasruti’ comes out some times. But he was a giant and not all vocalist could manage to match his vibrant music. His music was of a different genere. It was more dramatic that being sublime. If he had played the 4 stringed violin I am sure he would have been one of the most listenable.

In respect of TNK N.Rajam duet the difference in the sounds of the two violins is not due to the music systems. NR uses a different technique called ‘gayaki ang’ innovated by her father. It is different from the usual CM violin technique in that all the four finger glide together. Very few cut notes, (almost nil) are produced. Because of this technique the swaras get power packed as in the TNR’s Nadaswaram or as in Mali’s flute. I understand that even though TNK had the benefit of this knowledge, his age, combined with constant concert tours prevented him in practicing and perfecting it. If NR plays CM then perhaps you would be able to identify this factor.

Coolkani had mentioned that he was not impressed by NR’s Alaps. I have heard her AIR programmes particularly the Pooriya in her first National Programme. It was pure vocal style with the tablist playing only Thekha. It appears that later on she had to change her style to accommodate the tablist. I do not think ever after that the concentration and the intensity of the raga attained could not match with those of the earlier renderings. I was told that in Gwalior Tansen Festival, when she played Darbari, Ustad Nissar Hussain Khan listening to her from the sides of the stage remarked, "What will happen to us if youngsters start playing like this !"

[coolkarni]

..

[ganesh_mourthy]

ok. that is chennai rasika at 25 . truly a sugar

[ganesh_mourthy]

Shivdasan wrote:

But playing a 7 stringed violin is extremely difficult because the finger has to be placed exactly on the same place on both the strings. That is, the finger should be perfectly perpendicular to both the strings. It is a herculean task to do it all the time, throughout the concert. And that is why ‘apasruti’ comes out some

----------------------

I am sorry , you got the whole playing style wrong. No one in the world can play with 2 fingers at a time on 2 different strings. and when 2 strings are only a mm away it is not possible to use 2 different fingers for even a second.

[coolkarni]

..

[arunk]

g-m: I think he means (for the 7 string case) one finger is placed on both those strings - not two fingers on 2 closely placed strings. I think this is how 12-string guitars also work.

Arun

[uday_shankar]

I am sorry , you got the whole playing style wrong. No one in the world can play with 2 fingers at a time on 2 different strings. and when 2 strings are only a mm away it is not possible to use 2 different fingers for even a second.

How dare you make assertions about things that you don't know about !!!

There is a well established technique called double stopping that is used by western violinists all the time, especially in the solo portions of violin concertos, etc.. Double stopping is exactly that - 2 fingers at a time on 2 different strings !!!!!

The same technique has also been used by MSG and LGJ to my knowledge. I will upload a clip of LGJ accompanying MMI, playing Todi with two different melodies on the Sa (A) string and the Pa (E) string.

As shivadasan acccurately says, this technique of double stopping is actually easier than single stopping on two closely placed strings as Shri Chowdiah used to. For one, when you have two saranis of different guages separated in pitch by an octave, the placement of the stops for different notes are slightly different. This is due the inherent problem with vibrating strings. That's why you'll find that good guitars have slightly adjutable bridges for each string.

[uday_shankar]

One more thing about double stopping...it may be very difficult to play gamakams. Whatever I've heard of MSG and LGJ involved only plain notes.

Sometime when I get time (suddenly I have no time to spare) I will post in detail about vibrating strings, the genius of Chowdiah, the difficulties in playing the seven stringed violin, similarities between chitravina (gotuvadyam) and seven stringed violin, etc...

[uday_shankar]

OK, some double stopping examples...

Here's the one and only LGJ playing todi (nereval in kaalinil chilambu) combining double stopping chords with Sa-Pa varjyam with graha bhedam . Enjoy...

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ku1pgq

And on this website you'll find a video demo of (western) double stopping on A-D strings of the violin:

http://www.danmansmusic.com/htm/sample_video_violin.htm

(UPDATE: Ignore the western site...it is very rudimentary. I will try to find a better example of an actual virtuoso violinist playing a double stopped violin solo)

[rajeshnat]

Double stopping is exactly that - 2 fingers at a time on 2 different strings !!!!!

Uday,
Can double stopping be done with two adjacent strings at the same time.

[uday_shankar]

rajesh, that's exactly what it is. Is my explanation not clear ?

Anyways check these series of videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6-5TED- ... re=related

[arunk]

I wouldn't think physics allows you to bow 2 non-adjacent strings at the same time (?) i.e. with violin double-stop can only imply adjacent string?

Of course with instruments like guitar you can do it (with finger plucking)

Arun

[uday_shankar]

I wouldn't think physics allows you to bow 2 non-adjacent strings at the same time (?) i.e. with violin double-stop can only imply adjacent string?

Of course with instruments like guitar you can do it (with finger plucking)

Arun

Exactly ! It is physically impossible to simultaneously bow non-adjacent strings on a violin . I thought that was obvious.

[bilahari]

I agree that it has to be plain notes with double stops. Not even MSG, surely, could use gamakas on it?! I have heard LGJ and MSG use this technique several times in their solos as well.

[rajeshnat]

uday,
May be still I have not got it , are we talking double stopping in the context of bowing or in the context of pressing with the finger two adjacent strings.

In post #68, you said "Double stopping is exactly that - 2 fingers at a time on 2 different strings ", in the last post you are talking about bowing.

[ganesh_mourthy]

With years spent with violin play i am rationale of what i say.So I dare say.Though you have mentioned Lalgudi and MSG I dont want even to get it clarified. They are geniuses and would nto try these fun play.

i quite well know what double stop or a drone and a chord is .i think all teachers teach their students once in a while without explaininf this jargon. But may be the way explained by uday , uday alone plays

But all that I can inderstand is how well this double sto p i s blown out of proportion.

Two strings and 2 fingers and all of that concomitantly and continuing to play with that . ha ha ha . thanks for making my day.

Rasikas enjoy.

[uday_shankar]

rajesh,

What's the problem ?

First I say "two fingers pressing on two different strings simultaneously".

Then you ask "adjacent strings" ?

I say "yes, that is implied because it is physically impossible to bow non-adjacent strings".

To make any sound, you need to bow the string also. If you cannot understand this, it is beyond my ability to explain.


g-m,
Did you listen to the lalgudi clip I posted or are your opinions made forever ?

[rajeshnat]

Uday
Got it move on.... When you and Arun talked about bowing it was just a corollary to what you had posted before, now It is clear .

[uday_shankar]

g-m,
Western music is strictly controlled by copyright laws so it is not easy to post clips. But I hunted down this URL to a streaming audio clip of a Sibelius violin concerto with numerous instances of amazing double stopping. It is a must listen for you to understand the things that are possible at the hands of a virtuoso violinist. This is Jascha Heifitz, a legend in the early 20th century. Listen carefully for some rapid double stopping passages which might be thought impossible.

http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeW ... ASC075.php

rajesh
sorry if i sounded testy. I am frustrated with ganesh mourthy and you were in the middle .

[arasi]

Uday,
While I feel poor Rajesh got in the way (!), I also feel that you are entitled to your testy state of mind, under the circumstances

[shanks]

Double stops or playing on two adjacent strings at the same time in western classical music is reasonably common in solo pieces or pieces for two instruments. Without a doubt, the notes played are associated with chords (cannot be discordant notes for sure).

If there is an obvious place for them, it is towards the end of passages where you get to hear a sequence of double stops; and quite often you will hear three notes (on three adjacent strings of course - GDA or ADE strings) being played - for this the violinist plays the lower two notes first and then brings in the third note (all of this in a very short period of time) - and to make sure you hear the three notes they really press the bow down very hard and quickly - this is not easy at all.

Typically students of WM spend a good chunk of time playing only double stops (there are books that have nothing but double stops) - listening to students practicing this can drive you crazy

Shankar

[Shivadasan]

GM wrote,
"I am sorry , you got the whole playing style wrong. No one in the world can play with 2 fingers at a time on 2 different strings. and when 2 strings are only a mm away it is not possible to use 2 different fingers for even a second."

[shanks]

My two cents on quality HM violinists, having heard quite a few of them, other than MSG/Narmada, N Rajam and her extended family (Sangeetha Shankar, Kala Ramnath etc), and Sriram Parasuram, there is not a single violinist who come anywhere close to the CM violinists in terms of technique or delivery (can't even hold a candle in my view). Strangely, all these are south indians with solid CM background (not sure abut Kala though). Even the violinist who would rank at say 100 in a CM char will be superior to HM violinists other than the above.

All you have to do is listen to them. There was a jugalbandhi of MSG with V G Jog - with all due respect to VGJ, it was a such a mismatch and must have been quite embarrassing to the organizers.

Coolkarni is on the dot when he stated this in a diplomatic way.

Shankar

[Shivadasan]

GM wrote,
"The second is played by Dr.Kala ramnath daughter of Dr.N.Rajam"

Kala Ramnathis a niece of N.Rajam and not her daughter.
Her daughter is Dr.Sangeeta Shankar

[Shivadasan]

Shanks says,
"My two cents on quality HM violinists, having heard quite a few of them"

Violin technique had been very well developed in CM over several generations. It was Parur Sundaram Iyer who used CM technique for HM when he went to Vishnu Digambar paluskar. He added new technique to play HM on the violin. MSG inherited that technique. Sundaram Iyer wanted to sythesise the two systems together and produce a fusion. His ideals were very noble because he wanted both the North and South to benefit by exchange of valuable technique. But it failed due to orthodoxy.

Narayana Iyer, father of TNK, though a close friend of Sundaram iyer, did not agree on this point. He ensured that her daughter kept the two styles distinct and separate. he added a few more revolutionary changes in technique that brought violin to closer the HM vocal technique, particularly the 'tan's. What NR has now is more advanced technique than what exists in CM.
Unfortunately the violin in HM fell under the category of instrumental music (sitar style) and every one thought only sitar style should be played on the violin. It was extremely easy because only cut notes as in sitar had to be used. Many achieved great speeds and gained fame. When NR came in with her technique people even thought that she was not using violin correctly. Jog and Datar realised the importance of CM technique and Jog even had lessons from one Nayudu who was wandering in the Uttar Pradesh. HM had received the gift of the CM technique but North Indians did not pay attention to its importance and that why it lagged behind.

[srikant1987]

A western violinist once explained to me how to bow on 3 strings together. There are passages in western music where harmony requires three different notes played at the same time. The violinist explained that it is possible if sufficient pressure is applied on the bow.

I think the hair of the bow will all snap in half if we apply so much force time and again! Unless of course, we construct a violin with a relatively flatter fingerboard (CORRECTION: bridge or both bridge and fingerboard).

Yes, there are passages in western music where many (often more than three) need to be sounded together, but I doubt they regularly use one violin to sound so many notes at a time. Indeed, I think that's why we often have a lot of violinists in an orchestra.

[ganesh_mourthy]

not the finger board has to be flattened but the bridge has to be.

uday shankar i heard your clip. Little busy now . i shall explain it this evenign or tomorrow.

[shanks]

Srikant1987 - you have quoted comments of Shivadasan as my quote !!

A whole of lot comments on what can be done and cannot be done on a violin are kind of hilarious - it seems that these are not based on actual knowledge of violin playing but making assumptions based on listening experience mostly in the CM/HM genre of music. Thank god that the terms like stoccato, spiccato, martele etc did not get thrown into the mix

Sure, CM/HM has adopted the violin in a manner that confounds the western musicians - but let us not get carried away, because technique wise, the WM violinists are leaps and bounds ahead in their technique because the music they have to play demands a high level of expertise. Listening to Violin solo compositions of the well known composers like Paganini, Mozart and Vivaldi, and a numerous other not so well known composers will give you an idea of the expertise they need to develop. And watching them adds another dimension too.

At the same time, the techniques that the WM possess/require are not required for the CM violinist who needs to possess an entirely different set of techniques (for gamakams, gayaki style ..etc) that the WM violinists will find it equally challenging and unable to comprehend.

When comparing HM and CM violinists itself is such a difficult task where the music is so related yet so far, trying to throw the WM violin techniques into the mix has very little value - what's the point anyway?

Shankar

[uday_shankar]

When comparing HM and CM violinists itself is such a difficult task where the music is so related yet so far, trying to throw the WM violin techniques into the mix has very little value - what's the point anyway?

Agreed. I started this whole thing because of ganesh_mourthy's assertion that, paraphrasing, "nobody in the "world" can play with two fingers on two different strings". I just wanted to point out that that's not true and that fairly complex (albeit "plain" notes) passages exist for double, and sometimes even triple stops. Listening to or better still watching a Perlman or an Anne Sophie Muetter performing a Paganini concerto, or even a cadenza in any weatherbeaten concerto is amazing with or without double stops. For me this discussion is over. Full stop. Make that double full stop . Closer to home, some very simple double stopping has been shown by LGJ and MSG, for what it is worth.

Srikanth1987,
The evolution of multiple violin sections, orchestration, harmony is far more complex than your simplistic observations may indicate.

[Shivadasan]

Srikant1987 wrote
"I think the hair of the bow will all snap in half if we apply so much force time and again! Unless of course, we construct a violin with a relatively flatter fingerboard."

The western violinist increase the tension of the bow to a great extant which enables the bow to rebound from the strings with a little force. The spring in the bow is very essential for WM. They use a lot of pressure on the bow and yet produce beautiful tone. They need to hold the violin tightly with their chin in order to execute such phrases. When using such pressure it is possible to apply the bow on 3 strings simultaneously. Making the bridge a little flatter would also make it possible.
The CM violinists do not tighten the bow as much as in WM. He just lays the violin against the chest. In this position it is impossible to exert a pressure as in the WM. Witnessing a western violinist in close quarters would clear all these doubts.

[srikant1987]

The evolution of multiple violin sections, orchestration, harmony is far more complex than your simplistic observations may indicate.

You probably need to take a break. I mean, what did I really say? They won't be regularly using one violin to sound three notes at a time, the way they use keyboards, for example. There might of course be one stunty composition where they do, but it can't be a regular feature (since someone said you can press the bow hard and manage it), in interests of the bow's hair.

[uday_shankar]

srikanth
You're absolutely right, taking your advice ! Sorry for the nonsense and BS...lack of sleep

[gn.sn42]

I personally dont want to shift from esnips .
I see that some latecomers are finding it handy and so there is little question of deleting files and someone asking for re-uploads.
With a 5GB facility as free option, it is the right kind of uploading site for me.
It also helps me to judge the general mood.

For instance I observe that the 2.5 minute Ragesri by BGAK has only one taker.
Strange.Considering that it is worth a million dollars and will make it to any "All time best 10 hits on Vinyl plates".There is no other track that conveys the beauty of BGAK as much as this.
And it has only one taker .

That is the challenge for forums like these

coolkarni,
I know from previous experience that any music you recommend is likely to be a priceless jewel. Yet I did not listen to the BGAK Ragesri. Why is that?
It's because I'm frightened by esnips. When I go there, it links to an astonishing number of ads, almost all of which attempt to set a cookie on my computer. It tries to draw you into clicking on links that take you to other sites ("Download this music" takes you to some commercial service), and strikes me as being an unsavoury site.
I finally yielded to temptation and listened to your Ragesri mix. I had to click my way through over 20 cookie-setting attempts and avoid several flashing come-ons before I could hear the music. The track was wonderful, but I cannot be fighting dragons every time. I'm already afraid that I might have missed something and allowed my computer to be compromised. I probably will not do this again for a long time. Believe me, I regret this a great deal.
You have to pick what works for you, and I understand that esnips works for you, but if others have the same reaction I did, it might be one explanation for the small number of hits.

[coolkarni]

.

[coolkarni]

.

[gn.sn42]

coolkarni,
What can I say? You're willing to give up something that's working for you just to accommodate the conveniences of a random internet poster - your generosity is Sibi-like!

1. I tried the filesanywhere.com link, and it's great. One cookie, no links, no irritating ads, a clean download.

2. However, it might restrict your ability to post files (1GB limit, 10MB per file, 25 downloads a day).

3. I really didn't want you to change anything - if esnips works for you, that's the important thing. Others might be perfectly happy with it - I just felt like sharing my thoughts. You cannot please everyone on the web (look at the posts in this forum!) and should not worry about it.

4. Your posts with information and anecdotes would be worth the price of admission if this forum had one

5. The SSI-MS track was awesome.

[coolkarni]

.

[gn.sn42]

coolkarni,
Good luck with your efforts: I'm lucky that I can enrich myself as a result.
Re file hosting sites, I'm no expert, but have you looked at badongo and ADrive?

[Nick H]

I don't have any problems with e-snips at all, but what gn.sn42 says doesn't surprise me. The premium, chargeable filesharing services are expensive, the free ones have to generate income somehow.

The fact that providing internet service, even a website, forum, or blog, costs money, sometimes makes me think that it is very unfair of me to block all the advertising, as I am denying support to sites that I want to see exist ---but I do, and it is not difficult at all.

My browser is Firefox. The Adblock Plus addin makes the vast majority of advertising just vanish. Flashblock is useful for some more, for those horrible animations that some site designers are so fond of, and for preventing some videos playing without asking. So, with one piece of software and two addins, I see and deal with what I want to see on the internet, not the rest.

Cool... I recall you using a Gmail addin for file sharing at one time: is that something that didn't work out? I've never had more than a very small, simple website hosted, I wouldn't know much about setting up my own private shared files, or how much it would cost, but I wonder if this might be an option for you?