Carnatic music is an open systems architecture???---An artic

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
srikant1987
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Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23

Post by srikant1987 »

I get your point coolji. Is it something like this: people can innovate and defend their innovations, but should not say "X or Y (fit in a giant's name) also innovated" to justify. Makes sense.

In one film, there's this dialogue, which goes like, "raman sandeha pattan garathunaala sandeha padaravan ellarume raman ayida mudiyaadhu" (Just because Lord Rama himself doubted his companion's chastity, it doesn't mean everyone who doubts their companion because a Rama.)

Similarly, just because Muthuswamy Dikshithar innovated, everyone who innovates won't become a Dikshithar.

Is that right?

But your successive posts seem to make more and more specific criticism. :)
R Varadarajan/inconsequential wrote:the rest of the article is just rubbish. Bach, Ramanujam, Adi Sankara it seems
Basically this is what you meant, right?
Last edited by srikant1987 on 28 May 2009, 09:06, edited 1 time in total.

coolkarni
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Joined: 22 Nov 2007, 06:42

Post by coolkarni »

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Last edited by coolkarni on 27 Nov 2009, 20:41, edited 1 time in total.

Always_Evolving
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Joined: 16 Oct 2007, 08:33

Post by Always_Evolving »

srkris wrote:
harimau wrote:Get prepared to be riled more!
He said "And I got riled by the patronizing / sarcastic tone", not by the content of your critique.
Make that a She :-)
Yes thanks srkris for clarifying that. Harimau - I am not arguing with the facts that veena still has its 3-4 concerts per season at the academy. Just that the sweeping statement that only instruments played by the "Gods of India" deserve to be heard is quite ridiculous.
Let us not step on others' toes, however insignificant (in whatever way) they may be.
Hey don't belittle my toes :-) I think they are significant.... j/k

vganesh
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 16:25

Post by vganesh »

I am telling this story just in wonder at why the conservatives frown upon that first move.Why the likes of Naina Pillay did not want his LP to be blared from the Tea shops .
CoolJi, then how you popularise CM?. Two aspects. Once is recogonizing the vidwans; Second popularising the CM. People like KJY, Unnikrishnan, Nithyasree have more popularity and they are good in CM too. Though I agree that half-baked knowledge is dangerous; to be frowned. You can't be strict too.

coolkarni
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Joined: 22 Nov 2007, 06:42

Post by coolkarni »

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Last edited by coolkarni on 24 Nov 2009, 11:30, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Always_Evolving,
Nice to know you are a woman!

ragam-talam
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Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15

Post by ragam-talam »

Rounding up the troops, are we Arasi? ;)

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Not intentionally! But not many women are active on the forum, though I know a few who do speak up or write a review once in a while with an ID which might not give a clue that they are of the female kind...

Always_Evolving
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Joined: 16 Oct 2007, 08:33

Post by Always_Evolving »

Rounding up the troops, are we Arasi? wink
No this monarch is not into jingoism :-) She's merely hoping for a proportionate representation of womens voices.

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I agree that whatever Prasanna has done so far does not amount to any kind of innovation in the mainstream carnatic music context.
Also, his article sounds a bit over-reaching especially when he drops in big names from different fields.

Here is another way of looking at it. This Open systems architecture in the title of this thread is not Prasanna's title but the original poster
chose to highlight it. But Prasanna does anchor his thesis using that as a metaphor, so highlighting that aspect is appropriate. In such open systems, you have to replace a layer at both the
sending and receiving end. So, what can happen is, when he builds in something new on top of, or in between, Carnatic music elements, the receivers
may not be the same CM rasikas. ( the receiving end rasikas or their mental layers have to be replaced too ). In many cases, this leads to a completely different stack ( genre ) with the new layers.

Another interesting thing can happen. Those rasikas to whom the new thing appeals can look down or loop up at the layers on which
it is built and learn to appreciate those preserved CM layers and probably make an effort to get an appreciation of the parent genre.

Prasanna has done some excellent work in his tribute to Jimi Hendrix. It suits his style of playing on the guitar.
Listen to his "layering" in this piece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87n1hb0L ... re=channel

It starts as carnatic. Around 3:40 you can feel something is changing slightly but still carnatic. Around 4:00 you see more of a change and around 4:20 he is
fully into 'Hendrix in front'. After this transition to 'Hendrix in the front', you can sense CM is still there as the base layer.

If one is not familiar with Hendrix, listening to a few songs by Hendrix will help appreciate the layers and transitions.

eppramod
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 17:26

Post by eppramod »

Hi VK,

"Open Systems architecture!!!" This was exactly what i got attracted to in the whole article...
If you try thinking CM in different layers ( I hope I can), i think we have possible some layers
which I think are "Open".CM has accepted lots of new things and it all fitted in their respective layers well i suppose
(eg new instruments...Violin,mandolin,saxophone etc...,new hindustani raga experiments).The core has not/need not change...

It was really sent in lighter vein :-)


Pramod

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Pramod, That is how I understood it as well, no issues. Replacing or modifying the layer is one thing, at the receiving end, there has to be corresponding modifications as well, in terms of new rasikas or existing rasikas finding it appealing enough.

1) Setting aside new instruments and ragas, The four manodharma based layers in CM can be considered open layers: Alapana, Thanam, Niraval and Kalpanaswaram. Melody is the common theme and you match it with and without rhythm and with and without sahityam. It pretty much covers all the bases ( sans harmony and multipart melody lines ).

2) You see the alapana layer replaced in film songs with some crooning and used as a background for enhancing the visuals ( like sunrise, sunset etc. ). That is not how CM artists do alapana, but that layer is definitely modified to suit other needs.

3) I am not sure if Thanam layer has been/can be 'modified' to any significant extent. CM itself practises thanam with and without rhythm. Other variations are such too minor to be called a replacement of this layer.

4) The layers which are most fungible are kalpanaswaram and niraval. Even within in CM, these two layers probably have more variations among practioners. The whole thing about Sarva Laghu vs Kanakku distinction might have been an evolution a result of such flexibility ( just my speculation ).

5) As a result, you will see most of these East-West fusion people exploiting these two aspects. It is only natural.

6) Jazz and CM are found to be compatible with each other mainly because of such open layers. Jazz's 'scat singing' and CM 'niraval and kalpanaswarams' are quite compatible with each other. I am not sure if CM folks will accept such a style of singing in CM concerts but it can easily go the other way. 'Scat singing' is more an open technique and they can easily borrow CM kaNakku elements and Korvai.

7) Similar thing with Rock, especially Blues based Rock of the late fifties, sixties and early seventies. There are some 'Open' sections there where the guitarists freak out. A certain amount of structure can help there and a lot can be learnt from CM.

8) Prasanna's Jimi Hendrix tribute is based on such a concept but in the reverse way. Take a highly structured kalpanaswaram section and incorporate rock guitar style of playing the swaras. Traditional CM listeners might find it at first a bit on the 'noisy' side due to distortions that is characteristic of that style. But what I found interesting is, even in that distortion, the CM base is still kept in tact.

gn.sn42
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:56

Post by gn.sn42 »

vasanthakokilam wrote: I am not sure if CM folks will accept such a style of singing in CM concerts but it can easily go the other way.
The recent Rudresh Mahanthappa - Kadri Gopalnath collaboration Kinsmen is a good example: it has received quite a bit of attention and praise as a jazz CD but not as far as I know as a CM effort.

More tracks from the CD are available here.

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

It is interesting to read a Jazz critic's take on the Gopinath-Mahanthappa venture: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/m ... ic_giddins

It looks like on the Jazz side, they thrive on such new things: "Jazz musicians have two fundamental goals: creating music that keeps listeners wondering what’s next, and finding a novel context within which to explore old truths. (There are no new truths.)....."

Rudresh talks about the project here: http://www.youtube.com/v/zGHi7NAhZiY

gn.sn42
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:56

Post by gn.sn42 »

vasanthakokilam, thanks for the links.

gn.sn42
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:56

Post by gn.sn42 »

asrini's recent posts in another thread led me to his blog, where I found this interesing post that discusses Prasanna: Anil Srinivasan on Prasanna

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