Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 09 Mar 2014, 09:11

First it bears repeating something that I have done ad nauseum over the years, i.e., that shruti shuddham of the kind we talk about in Indian Classical Music has absolutely nothing to do with the having "perfect pitch" or "absolute pitch". Absolute/Perfect pitch is an approximate "ballpark" kind of skill wherein the person is able to cubby hole a particular musical tone heard to one of the twelve semitones (C, C#, etc...through A#,B) in an octave, and then to a more limited extent identify the particular octave of the piano (i.e., C2, C3...etc. middle C is C4). Some people may be born with it, somebody with a musical ear can cultivate it. Most importantly, a casual reader should not make the obvious and completely wrong conclusion, based purely on semantics that "perfect pitch" converys "perfection" in shruti !! I would advocate the consistent use of the semantically unambiguous phrase "absolute pitch" to avoid the confusion.

mahavishnu wrote:
Evidence suggests that tonal language speakers have the potential to achieve perfect pitch (absolute), more than non-tonal speakers.

Uday, I have used the term absolute pitch.Yes, I agree that having perfect absolute pitch perception has little to do performance in this context.

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 09 Mar 2014, 10:46

There are enough singers in CM who have demonstrated over the decades, excellent pitching and voice production (practically any CM singer who has sung for movies might qualify). A big problem peculiar to CM vs. HM, Opera etc, is the entry barrier is low. All sorts of people without the gift or even a serviceable voice in the first place are able (and allowed) to perform.
The situation will not change as long as Carnatic music performance is (largely) a hobbyist activity. This question of quality will never arise in the absence of an underlying economic rationale, guilds/unions, or a substantial market. If Tamil cine music becomes increasingly westernised, even that crutch will disappear. A lot of the disproportionate publicity that CM now gets from the media will evaporate, CM will find itself in the league of "Poi kaal kudirai aatam" or Morris dancing, and discussions on performance quality and technique etc. will be of even less consequence than it is today.

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 09 Mar 2014, 10:49

Kartikbala very true

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Mar 2014, 19:50

A big problem peculiar to CM vs. HM, Opera etc, is the entry barrier is low. All sorts of people without the gift or even a serviceable voice in the first place are able (and allowed) to perform.

This sounds quite bleak and distressing karthikbala. Let us get a measure of the problem. This is a question to you and also others who are interested in opining about this.

What % of artists who sing at the MA fall below this acceptable/serviceable line? By time slot and by vocal vs instruments. ( approximate ball park estimate is fine )

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 09 Mar 2014, 19:55

This allegation about the artists is unfounded in as much as CM artists work in free market place and they find their own niche and fans; the barrier is created by the rasikas and not the artists IMHO.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 09 Mar 2014, 20:23

mahavishnu wrote:What is in question is why most north Indians who have not been tonal language speakers for over 100 generations have an advantage over, say, tamilians. The mechanism for this is non-local and hence the causality is tenuous at best. I hope you see the distinction.

Despite us believing that some north Indian languages are non-tonal while some others clearly are, there still may be some aspect of tonality that is not visible on the surface, but existing in the way north indians conceive of vowels. It may show up in other differences in pronunciation that may not be immediately obvious.

To understand this better, we will need to study where, when and how Hindi, Marathi etc lost tonality and understand how those languages coped with giving up the swaras of their vowels in their earliest stages. Tonality is central to vowels in Vedic (that's probably why vowels are named swaras in Vedic and Sanskrit). If we do this we may find (as I think) that tonality is hidden in languages like Hindi and manifests in other differences of pronunciation.

The languages/dialects of the north-west have historically exerted a powerful linguistic influence on the rest of India. Sanskrit and Vedic were north-western dialects. I do not see why such an influence would not persist even upto the present. Punjabi still exerts a powerful influence on Hindi today... and until the colonial era, language in North and Central India was not perceived to be classified as watertight divisions, it was recognized to be more of a dialect continuum, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect_continuum. There may be areas (near Punjab etc) where Hindi is tonal, there may be areas (Hyderabad for example) where it is not. I would presume that the influence of southern languages in the historical period may have contributed to the gradual disappearance of tonality of some north Indian languages.

That apart, most prominent Hindustani schools (gharanas) belong to the north-western quarter of the subcontinent if I am not wrong.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 09 Mar 2014, 21:02

SRKris
Just tthought of this:
Mallikarjun Mansur, Sawai Gandharva, Bal Gandharva, Kumar Gandharva, Bhimsen Joshi, Basavraj Rajguru, Gangubai Hangal... All major names in HM. Hailed from North Karnataka/Maharastra border and spoke Kannada and Marathi - neither has a singsong tonality.

arvindt · Post by **arvindt** » 09 Mar 2014, 21:35

I'll be contrarian here at the risk of inviting some wrath. I personally think the premise of this thread is not correct. I am going through the process of learning CM currently from a good guru for the last several years and her shruti suddham is above question. I have also attended many HM concerts and listened to quite a bit of HM recordings including BGAK, Bhimsen, Mallikarjun, Ustad Amir Khan, etc.. and I think most of the good CM performers have equally good shruti suddham. I just think the music itself is typically faster kala pramAnam and shorter karvais (pauses), with lower tambura volume. Also CM performers seem to select lower shrutis than corresponding HM performers (e.g. singing at C = 1 kattai or C# = 1.5 kattais as opposed to Hindustani artists who invariably sing at least D 2 kattais or D#).

All of these (fewer and shorter pauses, lower tambura volume, and lower base shruti) I believe contribute to a lack of a "sense of alignment" in CM in the listener's mind, whereas the slow note by note alignment in a typical HM alapana (aalaap), higher tambura volume and higher base shruti lend a sense of "shruti alignment" and better tonality. To illustrate this point, take an MSS who sang at relatively high pitch, used a higher tambura volume and had a voice with better tonality compared to most CM artists (I don't think anyone would dispute this) --- she is revered even in the North. RK Srikantan Sir's tambura volume was higher, his kalapramanam more measured and he had a rich voice - no one will say he doesn't have shruti suddham! On the flipside, in fast passages I have heard HM performers slip on shruti too. People may not perceive it since their tonality is still excellent.

The other possibility (I'm more speculating here) is along the lines of what karthibala mentions - our gurus encourage anyone to take up CM and master it, inspired by the example of vidwans like Semmangudi who was a great of CM even though he had a not so great voice by a pure tonality standard. Similarly, Sanjay subramaniam in a podcast mentioned that he believes any voice can achieve good qualities with sufficient sAdhana. In contrast, I suspect HM gurus may be culling out students who don't have great voices/tone quite early in the teaching process. I could be wrong but it would interesting to hear from the perspective of someone who has learnt HM whether their gurus are more selective in taking on students or allowing them to perform. Similarly, I suspect HM performers also stop singing earlier than CM artists, who may be continuing to perform even past a certain age.

So maybe instead of asking about shruti suddham, we should be asking if something can be done to improve tonality in CM. I personally feel Palghat Mani Iyer's suggestion that vocalists sing at higher pitches and train there is a good idea to improve tonality. My guru doesn't agree with me so I might well be wrong!

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 09 Mar 2014, 21:46

ArvindT,
Thank you for many interesting points.
Having a higher tambura volume and singing at a higher pitch seem like good suggestions, However I think there is more wear and tear in a briga/speedy style of CM that takes a toll on the pitch level.

I have heard many HM musicians sing with indifferent Sruti and swara Suddham. Especially when they sing fast passages. Also some big HM names weren't the best at Sruti Suddham.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Mar 2014, 22:16

That makes sense Arvind. Those are good points to add to the mix.

BTW, what is the working definition of 'tonality' in these contexts? Pleasant sounding, not harsh, no rough edges etc. ? Hope crooning is not equated with good tonality since that would not be considered good for expressing bhava in CM ( whereas that would definitely be considered desirable in cine music )

I think the the phenomenon that Karthik alludes to is predominantly in the AIR artists and especially a few who are featured in the afternoon slots ( to be sure, not all ), in my limited experience. But I will wait for all your opinions about MA level artists.

There is one other aspect that I wonder about. If we, ordinary rasikas, perceive the sruthi lapses, the professionals should perceive it too, that much more. Has anyone talked to a few of the professionals to get their ( non defensive ) assessment, even if it is private.

arvindt · Post by **arvindt** » 10 Mar 2014, 00:40

vasanthakokilam,

Re: your question, I really don't know if I can define tonality objectively. It is pretty subjective. In the CM context it is what people call "shAreeram". Part of it can be a natural gift and part can be developed by sAdhana. It is definitely not crooning - more the opposite I'd say. I'd say it includes having a pleasant rich sounding voice (not too thin or too thick - this is sort of a natural gift), singing from the nAbhi (stomach), having sufficient voice range without losing volume when traversing registers, ensuring the voice shows sufficient strength on kaarvais even after singing a long phrase, varying modulation or volume correctly depending on the ragam/phrase, ensuring microtonal shruthi alignment when singing a gamakam, ensuring the "ends" of phrases in ragas align with shruti properly, etc... all of these together give a good effect on the rasika. Except the first all others can be cultivated and together I guess they improve the shAreeram.

Regarding RSachi's point

>> However I think there is more wear and tear in a briga/speedy style of CM that takes a toll on the pitch level.

True, but remember MSS could handle all the brigas, gamakas and more in her prime (just listen to her chatula nataNa in bhavayami gopalabalam and returning to perfect alignment on the next phrase will prove that). It proves it can be done and is in the realms of possible, at least by gifted artists, and artists who have done enough sAdhana. I myself find that repeatedly singing a varnam in gradually progressing higher and higher speeds has been useful for me to get better and I can measure my own improvement over the past 5-6 years; I am sure the truly dedicated artists (who do exist in CM) have done varnam and akara sadhakam thousands upon thousands (or more) of times to get to where they are now.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Mar 2014, 02:53

ArvindT,
Yes, that reminds me about how Madurai Mani Iyer answers in an AIR interview about training the voice. He refers to the time when as a teenager his voice broke and he could not sing well for some time. Then he practiced exercises by which he steadily went higher and held the note perfectly for the attempted duration. Then he would move up to the next swara.
I will try to locate that interview and share the sound file here.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Mar 2014, 02:55

VKM,
I have known singers and professionals to be "privately" pretty scathing in their comments of their peers for their Sruti lapses.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 10 Mar 2014, 03:45

Yes, that reminds me about how Madurai Mani Iyer answers in an AIR interview about training the voice. He refers to the time when as a teenager his voice broke and he could not sing well for some time. Then he practiced exercises by which he steadily went higher and held the note perfectly for the attempted duration. Then he would move up to the next swara.
I will try to locate that interview and share the sound file here.

It is in the FIRST MMI CENTENARY DVD. VKV

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Mar 2014, 07:06

Rsachi wrote:VKM,
I have known singers and professionals to be "privately" pretty scathing in their comments of their peers for their Sruti lapses.

Theree is lot of Jealousy in the CM world !

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Mar 2014, 07:19

Thanks Sir, I will share that interview here.

arvindt · Post by **arvindt** » 10 Mar 2014, 08:31

Rsachi, that would be nice. I have never heard an MMI interview!

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Mar 2014, 23:38

ArvindT
I have ripped the audio from the two DVD set that includes the MMI interview. Please access it here:
http://bit.ly/MMIIntvw
as a bonus you have a fantastic Vatapi sung by MMI to the accompaniment of LGJ and PSP (listen to it on headphones or a good speaker system!)
Please note this is available as a result of a massive project executed by CACM and others. You can read all about it in the Madurai Mani Iyer Centenary thread in rasikas.org
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... =Centenary

arvindt · Post by **arvindt** » 11 Mar 2014, 03:01

Rsachi, cacm (VKV) and others who have contributed to the MMI project: a big thanks! Downloading it now.

vallknowme · Post by **vallknowme** » 11 Mar 2014, 04:20

First of all, shurti as you people call it, physically is not definable. It is a relative measurement and very subjective. How can you measure shruti? It is not "pitch". There is no instrument in the world that can measure shruti. The only way you can measure shruti is by LISTENING. Only practitioners can understand this.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 11 Mar 2014, 06:32

I have seen apps used in Iphones for sruti measurement and it is pretty accurate.

vallknowme · Post by **vallknowme** » 11 Mar 2014, 20:19

Sorry sir, I humbly disagree. Only human ears can measure Shruti. Instruments and apps cannot. Anyone who is experienced with sound analysis will know this. You may say each human ear is different - thats why Shruti is a subjective phenomenon.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Mar 2014, 20:54

The apps that we see on phones, etc, and the dedicated meters used by musicians for tuning, measure pitch. The pitch that a person is singling, or playing, can be measured at any given moment. If it is a flat note, where is the difference between pitch and "shruti?" But if it is a note with gamaka ...well, of course it can still be measured, because it is a sound, but what might be in question is its assessment as being right or wrong against a fixed frequency.

Possibly this book applies?

In his bold and critical analysis, the author shows why the currently prevailing theories of 22 śruti-s are inapplicable to the system of rāga music. He explains why śruti is not quantifiable. The modern theories based on Western tuning concepts and mathematics, that place the 22 śruti-s among the various rāga-s, have been completely debunked.

vallknowme · Post by **vallknowme** » 12 Mar 2014, 01:39

Nick sir, you are pinning down this entire discussion to the crux - what is the difference between shruti and pitch? pitch is is for physicists. shruti is for music listeners. period. thanks

vallknowme · Post by **vallknowme** » 12 Mar 2014, 01:49

Excuse the bluntness of this analogy - a cow moos - whats the shruti? a crow caws - whats the shruti? a cat meows - whats the shruti? Kindly seperate quantification of sound and music appreciation. PLEASE

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 12 Mar 2014, 01:53

Any sound has a sruti for a real musician; I find sruti in microwave too.

vallknowme · Post by **vallknowme** » 12 Mar 2014, 01:59

thats exactly my point. thats because you APPRECIATE music as opposed to sit and quantify it. This so called "shruti" analysis is for artificially intelligent robots that can manipulate pitches.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Mar 2014, 02:57

So your point is that musicians do not sing notes? Well, they do.

But, as the most ignorant person in the discussion, I can still appreciate that there is more to it in Carnatic music.

I attended the launch of the book I referred to a post or three ago, and it was extremely interesting.

But, if we are going to get into nothing-can-be-quantified land, we might as well all just go and join an audiophile forum

)

(I am a member of an audiophile forum

)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Mar 2014, 07:23

Who decides whether shruti is off when there is no objective measurement ?
If it is too bad ALL rasikas will notice it.
Occasionally we hear from a self-styled critic who states authoritatively while ordinary folks will not notice.
For example if it is a vivadi rare raga it will sound odd and one may blame the artiste unjustly as off shruti.
KJY who attempts exotic ragas has often been blamed unjustly!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Mar 2014, 13:26

vallknowme: As I said, I am "blessed" with inaccurate sense of pitch, let alone deficient knowledge of raga, but friends who sit in the audience and tell me that an artist had a problem are not sitting there with meters, but are using their ears, their knowledge and their experience of music. I don't think they are imagining anything, and they are certainly not failing to "appreciate" the music. Whilst CM audiences might be said to have an excess of intellectual involvement, similar to some jazz audiences, there don't seem to be many robots around.

There are plenty of scientists, mathematicians, physicists. If some of them decide to use the tools of their trade to study and investigate music, does it disqualify them as music lovers and render them robots?

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 12 Mar 2014, 14:07

@Nick H, I agree. Physics and mathematics do help. Now all I need is a tanpura app and a tuning fork app (for some trickier ones) to render the correct frequency of a note for a given Sa (from A to G and all in between) to improve my plain swara shuddam (even though the fork won't help with gamakas one bit). It's wrong to belittle an intellectual analysis of music. [-x While an audience member has no need to delve too deep into the technicalities, these studies are quite beneficial to the performer (athlete, musician, sportsman...or the app developer

) . Besides some humans just prefer to express interest through their brain :-B

On a side note, ordinary sounds (even the spoken voice) are not shruti because they consist of too many discordant and unsteady frequencies. It becomes shruti or musical when there is a clear harmonic relationship between all the frequencies produced. And yes, 22 shrutis applies only to plain notes, tuner apps and graha bhedam, not to gamakas and moving phrases. We do need them in long held kaarvais because a plain sustained note can't be held at an "apaswara" point.

Nevertheless in practice, practicing plain notes does help improve shruti shuddam on gamakas considerably, not to mention the tonal improvements on both voice and instrument. It also teaches correct vocal or instrumental technique, something to keep in mind so as to avoid unwanted strain while going into heavy madhyamakala gamakas (which is where the majority of all defects come out).

vallknowme · Post by **vallknowme** » 12 Mar 2014, 22:24

The closest way to quantify shruti is possible through biomedical engineering. Do an fMRI scan of the brain while a rasika listens to the music and statistically quantify it.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 12 Mar 2014, 22:46

Srinath,
I downloaded an app on my iPad called "Guitar Tuner" by Gismart for free. It has a tuning fork app. See this shot: it has an electronic tuning fork too.
My ears can distinguish a pitch change of one or two hertz also!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Mar 2014, 00:15

vallknowme wrote:The closest way to quantify shruti is possible through biomedical engineering. Do an fMRI scan of the brain while a rasika listens to the music and statistically quantify it.

Well, we have a member that does that sort of stuff

But anyway...

You know how conversations require mutual understanding of language? Please define shruti as you see it. Currently, I don't see how anyone can discuss your statements. substitute "Ghost" for "Sruti" and you might see what I mean.

vallknowme · Post by **vallknowme** » 13 Mar 2014, 04:48

May I know who that person may be? I can work with him.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Mar 2014, 12:47

Member Mahavishnu works with the effects of music on the brain. Member cacm (VKV) is a senior physicist. Member Uday_Shankar is an engineer who also does acoustic research (and invention) in carnatic music. Probably there are lots more, at least two or three are on the tip of my brain cell. The idea of a forum is that, through conversation, one gets to know these things. Even a for-ever novice like me learns stuff here --- and maybe even, occasionally contributes. But it is done by conversation, not making blunt statements or denials.

vallknowme · Post by **vallknowme** » 13 Mar 2014, 23:39

Nick H, I am assuming you are being humble when you say you are a novice. If you do not want to look at music as an art, but "scientify/quantify" it, we will have to discuss biophysics. Some theorists do not like biophysics, because they are theorists. So, as an engineer, I can only discuss transducer designs and measurement science. How are these apps/robots/androids/music-loving-non-humans able to measure shruti? What kind of transducers they have? How about the transducers that bats' ears have? Bats can appreciate subtle notes and perhaps better music than humans. If not music, we will have to talk engineering.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Mar 2014, 23:48

No, I really am a novice, even though my concert tally (if I'd ever kept it) must be a thousand or more.

You didn't answer my question.

It also occurs to me that if all know you (or is that a misreading, a wrong parsing?) then you probably know those who I mentioned, and more.

vallknowme · Post by **vallknowme** » 13 Mar 2014, 23:55

I do know mahavishnu and aware of his research because he is in the University of California system. I have read uday's papers.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 14 Mar 2014, 16:44

I am extremely happy and feeling proud of you for the deep knowledge and skills of usage of technology in the investigation and solutions. Continue your search in the same spirit to eliminate myths, myth making and idolatry which are affecting the quality in Indian Classical Music.

munirao2001

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 16 Mar 2014, 10:46

If you have a tuning fork app and a good tanpura app, then this excel sheet here can give the plain note frequencies for all keys. Tune and listen to that fork's shruti shuddam for yourself.

https://db.tt/Ica9ZQlK

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 16 Mar 2014, 11:54

Srikanth,
Humour me. Are you implying that tuning forks don't work for CM? Are you implying our idea of various swara sthanas don't correspond precisely to the excel table values?
Thanks

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Mar 2014, 12:36

Tuning forks are tied to 1. A=440, and 2. the Western tempered scale. I don't think either [necessarily] apply to Indian music?

If you can sing CM to the notes sounded by a Western electronic tuning aid, then you could do so to a normally-tuned keyboard.

Sophisticated electronic aids can easily have their base note (A=440) changed. They also offer a variety of scales other than tempered: are any of them suited to any Carnatic raga?

Western tuning aids are often seen on the stage, and have been even before they became battery operated. Pitch pipes used to be blown into. However, as I understand it, they purpose is to share a common starting place, to establish SA. It then doesn't matter whether we call it C, D, or E, or 1, 2, or 3: it only matters that it is some note within the comfort zone of vocalist, mridangist, violin, etc. Actually, even in Western music, A may not be = to 440.

So no, tuning forks do not work for CM, except in that one tuning fork could be used to establish that shared base note. They are are a red herring for the performers --- and any sort of herring would be most unwelcome on the carnatic stage.

Working in the other direction, the electronic meters work for any sound with a big enough single measurable harmonic so, yes, for the measurers and analysts, they "work" for CM.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 16 Mar 2014, 12:38

I said, tuning fork APP.

Tuning forks might not work on gamakas, but definitely plain notes, kaarvais and graha bhedam points. Gamakas are moving phrases so how much can a tuning fork help you there? The excel table was only for helping tuning the fork in the app.

Unlike a physical fork, an app however is fully capable of generating any frequency for a fork to vibrate at. Besides, all this is only for helping practice purposes. And the intervals in the table are not ET if you scroll up and see.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Mar 2014, 13:40

OK... I'm useless at numbers and daunted by a page of them --- so excuse if my comments were wrong/irrelevant

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 16 Mar 2014, 13:58

No big deal. See, if your shruti is C sharp, then look at one of the 3 C sharps there on the rows. The keys have been given up to a range of 3 octaves. Then if i want the panchamam, I look on the column under the ratio 1.5 and I have the frequency. I have a tuning fork app in my phone and next to a tanpura it sounds divine.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 16 Mar 2014, 14:03

Ok that's how I first read your excel and am in concurrence.
I was really tempted to bring in this app to settle an argument, and a well known singer was arguably straying from the top SA as she sang again and again.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 16 Mar 2014, 16:13

Rsachi , you cannot say who it is.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Mar 2014, 21:40

I am watching the TMK lectures ( CMI Arts Initiative Oct-Nov 2012) on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCMIVideos

What he discusses there in the initial set of lectures seems to be related to this issue here. I know we spend a lot of time on terminology, so let us see if TMK's ideas on normalizing that is agreeable to people here. We can then talk about 'Suddha' for each one of them.

1. Sruthi - AdhAra Shadja ( say 1 kattai in the 3rd register (C3) - 130.813 Hz)
2. Swarasthana - A specific point in the octave as per the tuning system chosen relative to the AdhAra. ( For the above Sa, 174.417 is the Suddha Madhyamam )
3. Swara - The melodic concept/idea that is not fixed to a single frequency. Refers to the embodiment of all the gamakas with all the context specific characterization. TMK insists on treating this as a concept by itself and not as something like 'Swara is swarasthana with gamaka of you apply gamaka to the swarasthana to get swara' which are the popular notions. So the swara 'Ma' is many things depending on the context of a raga. The swarasthana happens to be one of them but that is just incidental.
In this view, swara is a purely musical/melodic idea.

In the spectrum of what a particular Swara is, the swarasthana can be at one end, the other end, or the middle or even more interestingly the swarasthana is not even there in any meaningful form. The easy example of the last one is the 'darbar Ga' or probably even the' Thodi Ga or Kanada Ga'.

I think this terminology distinction is very useful to have. This way, we can hang our often debated topics on a proper framework. For example, the 22 sruthis debate is in the domain of items 1 and 2 and not necessarily item 3. When people say there are '6 different Mas', they are not necessarily talking about Swarasthana (item 2) but definitely they are talking about swara ( item 3 ).

These are nothing new for most of us, but laying out this distinction and using the terms properly and consistently helps the discussion and clarify matters enormously.

And we can talk about 'Suddha' ( the main topic of this thread ) in a deliberate and specific manner.

a. Shruthi Suddha - ( are you aligned to the AdhAra Shadja through out the singing )
b. Swarasthana Suddha - ( where the swara happens to coincide with the swarasthana, are you at the right position in the octave? )
c. Swara Suddha ( Are you executing the Swaras, in all its gamaka glory, whose sounds are within the normally accepted set for that raga )

While 1 and 2 ( or a and b above ) are easily mathematically treated, item 3 (swara) is more involved and probably should be considered outside the domain of analysis/science and be treated as part of the art form. Though it is possible to trace the contours in terms of frequencies etc. that is only one aspect of what a 'Swara' is. Swara also includes how individuals perceive it which includes non-technical things like psychological conditioning, emotional response etc. This is probably the distinction vallknowme is trying to make.

This psychological conditioning can actually involve perceiving swaras that are not even voiced ( there was an interesting example of that in his lecture where an audience member heard Charukesi when TMK did not sing Charukesi exclusively though he had Charukesi in mind! Really! ). And a more mundane example of the psychological conditioning as a culture is the famous example of how kampita gamaka ( oscillation ) is enjoyed by CM folks and considered out of sruthi by many others.

So sruthi is a much wider concept and it is in the domain of arts which form the basis/stepping stone for talking about what a raga is which is even more removed from science and deep into the musical/melodic art form.

Now, we can ask two questions:
What is 'swara suddha'?
What is 'raga suddha'?

Answer is not quite easy. The first level answer is of course 'if the musician is within the bounds of what is normally accepted set of gamakas of the swaras of the raga'. That is a technical answer and while it is not wrong, it is not sufficient since it leaves out the perception by the listener. Our brain is a quite complicated and wonderful thing and it adjusts/compensates/reinterprets things on the fly. ( strictly a side bar here: Uday said in a different thread about Graha Beda that how we perceive a change in raga seems to be based on the swara patters that are unique to the 'new' raga even if we do not temporarily change the Aadhara Shadja etc. Hope I did not misunderstand what Uday said. If it is not relevant to the idea here, please ignore this side bar, we will pick it back up in a different context ).

So given this, swara suddha/raga suddha is a complicated matter and it may explain why CM fans are tolerant of some deviations while other fans may not. CM fans may be instinctively looking for that musical idea that swara and swara sequences are, and their brains ( due to conditioning ) can be quite greedy in forming those ideas even if they are not technically perfect at the sruthi and swarasthana level.

It leads to an intriguing idea that even in the midst of some small deviations in sruthi and swarasthana, swara/raga can still be in tact in the musician's mind and more importantly in the audience's mind.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Mar 2014, 23:18

Thanks VK for that clear analysis and interpretation of TMk (which I am also following). It may take some time for the ideas to sink before I start responding.