Compositions that reflect contemporary themes.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Jul 2009, 05:26

Welcome back SR! Your arrival with rolliing clouds and pouring rains will be a treat for the mayuras and catakas.
Lovely HM piece with the tabla accompaniment.
You know that the MaaNDukya upaniShad was the basis of the prashna upaniShad. So get ready for the prashnas from us

First tell us more on the Megh raga...

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 19 Jul 2009, 08:00

CML & Sridhar,

I chanced upon this thread today. A great tribute from both of you to the legend.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Jul 2009, 09:58

CML,

Thanks for contributing excellent compositions in this thread...I especially enjoyed your 'collaboration' with R-T, and your Desh was very evocative. Glad to see you are going strong and that your 'musical intelligence' is razor-sharp as ever !

Also good to see participation from stalwarts like Arasi and VKR.

Rasiks,

Thanks for your continuing interest in this thread. Much more is to come.

Best Wishes,
SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Jul 2009, 10:09

CML,

Thanks. I look forward to the "prashnas"...I am sure answering them will be a much more pleasant experience than eating the fig of a peepal tree

Also, this is not a HM composition, it is an example of Indian classical music. It is composed in the CM method with a HM raga. The composition is designed to be compatible with both south indian Jhampa tala (misra, 10 matras) as well as north indian Jhap tala (10 matras, slightly different structure).

MD laid foundations for the integration of HM and CM concepts. The present composition, and other compositions of mine, will take this forward in a substantial way.

SR

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Jul 2009, 10:19

Very good SR. It sounds very nice. I appreciate that you indeed fully respect the 1-kalai misra jampa structure with the stress on the padagarba 8th beat with a kArvai etc. That locks the internal structure in place. That makes sure no one converts this to a kanda chapu

Enjoyed it very much. Thanks.

It is still skewed a bit towards an HMish flavor in the overall portrayal for me. MD's Parimala Ranga is sort of in the same league( diff raga and thala of course ) and may be it has been shaped over the years to make it sound like a CM piece. In what way, I wonder. It may all just be conditioning. Your composition is really laying the platform to think and feel such finer aspects of musical aesthetics.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Jul 2009, 10:42

This post is for notes regarding the present composition (raga Megh) presented in post #748.

Megh seems to be a very old, even "primeval" raga. The genius of this raga is in describing the monsoon, which is an critical element in Indian civilization. In North Indian classical music, this raga has been beautifully evolved over the ages to serve this single purpose. In South India, the focus of classical music narrowed to mostly puranic themes, with the result that the splendor of ragas like Megh, and their strong connection to forces of nature and Vedic symbolism has not been fully appreciated. The present composition fills this gap.

Megh (s r2 m1 p n1 S - S n1 p m1 r2 s) is a majestic and weighty raga. Some features are:

1. Oscillation of R and N. By the way, this distinguishes it very clearly from various Sarangs (Brindavani, Madhmad etc) which have a solid, steady R and N.

2. Weakness of R: unlike in Sarang, R is dependent on glides (meends) from other swaras (the most obvious is M, but swoops from other swaras can be very well executed as seen in the composition.

3. Emphasis on M, P, and S as important swaras.

4. Preponderance of long-range meends, such as n --> n and s --> S.

5. A very distinctive M --> R glide and N --> P glide. These have been adopted by Malhar ragas which also are monsoon-related and seem to have appeared later. These also distinguish Megh from various Sarangs.

6. Distinctive oscillatory gamakas such as the one on "kavayO" which heighten the association with rainfall.

Compositions in Megh require careful execution to precisely capture the lakshanas. As such it is very suited for serious classical compositions in CM and HM. The present composition is probably one of the first CM compositions in Megh with fully classical features. Fast compositions in Megh are usually reduced to an indistinctive excursion along the SRMPN scale and have no clear differentiation from other ragas with the same scale (such as Madhmad Sarang). The lakshanas are clearly seen in slow, reposeful renditions, which bring this fine raga to light. Similarly the chittaswaras must be carefully executed, since this raga, like Bhairavi, Kambhoji, etc is not attractive if swaraprastaras do not incorporate the special lakshanas of the raga. Tanas also must be sparingly used to avoid spoiling the effect of Megh.

MD's composition saundararAjam Ashraye has caused some confusion, since it is labeled as "Vrindavana Sarang" but is in reality a mixture of Madhmad Sarang and Megh. Possibly MD was not fully familiar with the details of these North Indian ragas. But due to his acute musical perception he intuitively must have realized that to produce rather majestic compositions such as "saundararajam" one needs to introduce features such as #1-6 above into the original Vrindavani Sarang, which is a more "rustic" raga. As I have mentioned in another thread, this creation of MD should be labeled "Dikshita Sarang" or something similar, since it is not Vrindavana Sarang (which moreover has a kakali nishada) nor properly Megh or Madhmad Sarang.

The composition features all the usual alankaras of a classical "CM" composition (prasa, yati etc) and also has swaraksharas in appropriate places to aid the precise execution of the syllables. It also has a play on the Sanskrit vowel "R" which is a primeval syllable connected to natural phenomena and Vedic symbolism.

SR

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 19 Jul 2009, 10:51

Excellent composition SR,
My first impression was, it sounds brindavana sAranga though not entirely.
You must explain in detail the raga.
As for the lyrics, they flow very well with the raga. The tabla makes it sound HM though I can feel the CM mode very much.

Oh ! thanks for explaining the raga , I see your recent post.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Jul 2009, 10:55

Thanks VK,

vasanthakokilam wrote:That makes sure no one converts this to a kanda chapu

That is quite unlikely in my opinion, the flow of the composition will be totally destroyed...yes, due to the specific way the composition is "engineered" as you mention. But a khanda eka would be OK. Eka tala is often the "trivial" case !

It is still skewed a bit towards an HMish flavor in the overall portrayal for me. MD's Parimala Ranga is sort of in the same league( diff raga and thala of course ) and may be it has been shaped over the years to make it sound like a CM piece. In what way, I wonder. It may all just be conditioning. Your composition is really laying the platform to think and feel such finer aspects of musical aesthetics.

Yes, I believe so. Megh is a HM raga so good compositions in this raga will retain that reposeful, "saukhya"-full flavor. It is not my intention to "convert" these ragas to CM, that does not interest me very much. Rather, I am interested in evolving "indian classical music". By fusing together CM and HM in a very careful and fully "classical" way, we can create new material that adds value to both traditions, instead of "repeating" the old, essentially stagnant, paradigms.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Jul 2009, 10:59

Suji Ram wrote:Excellent composition SR,
My first impression was, it sounds brindavana sAranga though not entirely.
You must explain in detail the raga.
As for the lyrics, they flow very well with the raga. The tabla makes it sound HM though I can feel the CM mode very much.

Oh ! thanks for explaining the raga , I see your recent post.

Thanks, Suji Ram. Yes, please see the post above. Megh has little in common with Vrindavana Saranga except for the scale. MD's compositions which are "labeled" as Vrindavana Sarang causes some overlap/confusion. Vrindavana Sarang does not evoke any monsoon-related imagery...it is a more "rustic" raga suited for amorous and lighter themes.

SR

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 19 Jul 2009, 15:33

SR: Nice composition! Hope you will give us more..

The following examples could be useful in studying (comparing & contrasting) the raga svaroopa
Rashid Khan - Raag Megh - Vilambit Khayal in Jhap Taal - Garaje ghata ghana - includes lyrics of the bandish and meaning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC12elC5 ... re=related

Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khansaheb - Morey mandir ab aawo saajan - Raag Megh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS1f-OlJ ... re=related

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 19 Jul 2009, 17:14

It is so long since I visted this thread; Obviously much water has flown under the bridge since then;

It will take me along time to dive in and come out with pearls. But ,like a person who reads the last page of a 'detective novel' I just went through the last few posts. Oh .My! what gems have I got.
Of late due to time constraints I am not able to go thro all the threads.My loss-

Adding to what CML and shridhar_rang wrote on ' paTTammAL (pATTammAL)'

muNDAsukkavi avanum kai niRaiya pADaluDan kAtthirukka
pOlagam thanda rAmaiyanum kIrthanaiyum kaiyumAi niRka
dhIkshidarukkO than pADalgaLai kETkum Ekkam Onga
sAsthriyum swAmigALUm engE pATTammAL enRu thEDa
pArttAr ivar- kiLambiviTTAr kutchEri angu seyya
nammaiyellAm ninavugaLuDan vAzhungaL enRu solliviTTu.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Jul 2009, 19:22

Punarvasu
... a short and sweet summary of the high points of DKP!

SR
very nice musical analysis! I congratulate you on the attempt to integrate CM and HM under "Indian Classical Music" (ICM) which be our focus henceforth!
I liked your linking with the vedas and the invocations to Indra as well as the clever intepretation of the word 'Rk'. You are quite right in emphasizing the importance of '^R' in Sanskrit which does not occur in the Dravidian (Tamil) language.

The picture is quite impressive foreboding the 'cloud burst' which we observe in parts of Kerala during the onset of Monsoon.

As I predicted the 'prashnas' have started. I trust you will not run away as before without fulfilling the requests

Remember what sage Pippalada said:
yadi vig~nAsyAmaH sarvaM ha vO vakShyAma iti

Look forward to an interesting and enlightening dialogue!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Jul 2009, 19:35

Thanks Nandagopl for those superb links of RK and BGAK!

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 19 Jul 2009, 20:53

Very impressive sAhityaM..

[quote="Sangeet Rasik"]

RtusamhAra: literally: "description of seasons"

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Jul 2009, 21:25

VK RAMAN wrote:Great Job with this rendition. The picture is worth 1000 words and the song reflects.

Thanks, VKR. I must clarify the picture was not taken by me, I found it several years ago when visiting a forum and saved it to my collection of desktop wallpapers. Looks like it has come in handy for another purpose as well.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Jul 2009, 21:37

knandago2001 wrote:SR: The following examples could be useful in studying (comparing & contrasting) the raga svaroopa

Thanks. This is very useful for the rasik. Pt. Ramashreya Jha's excellent discourse is also of course available, and has been posted before.

There is a very contemplative Megh by Amir Khan (vilambit "Barkha ritu aayi"). For drut he has composed an ingenious tarana ("dheem ta dheem ta dhirana"). The recording is available commercially, but I don't think it is on the internet.

"Garaja ghata ghan" has been interpreted in several ways by many. It is also rendered impressively by Basavaraj Rajguru in an old LP (3 minute) format. The chalan of the title words as sung by Rajguru, along with the strong bass of the tabla accompaniment, creates a "menacing" effect of an impending downpour.

Some musicians mix in a komala gandhara (sadharana gandhara in CM) as an alpa swara. This adds a shade of Malhar, I personally have not done it. Amir Khan's Megh does not have gandhara.

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Jul 2009, 21:42

^RtusamhAra could also mean '^RtOH samhAraH vinAshaH' (the destruction of the seasons)

Perhaps SR was hinting at the Monsoon deluge that suffocates part of the cities (e.g., Mumbai) in India

By the by some claim that ^RtusamhAra was not written by Kalidasa!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Jul 2009, 22:02

CML,

cmlover wrote:I congratulate you on the attempt to integrate CM and HM under "Indian Classical Music" (ICM) which be our focus henceforth!

Yes, this is my ongoing attempt. But I am glad you are interested in it ! I hope that more rasiks will move from thinking in terms only of "HM" and "CM". We have a common musical heritage, of course with different offshoots. The offshoots have been overemphasized in my opinion, it would be good to go back to the common roots in a more meaningful way.

By the way, the use of carefully chosen Sanskrit text in the classical CM style provides a certain majestic effect that no other language can come close to.

I liked your linking with the vedas and the invocations to Indra as well as the clever intepretation of the word 'Rk'.

Yes, the idea was to supply a concise composition with all the main lakshanas of Megh and with a focused connection of natural forces to Sanskrit literature (revealed as well as classical).

You are quite right in emphasizing the importance of '^R' in Sanskrit which does not occur in the Dravidian (Tamil) language.

Yes, this was thought out as well. According to scholars the Mandukas were closely associated with the development of Sanskrit phonology. My personal conjecture is that the inclusion of vowels "R" and "RR" in Sanskrit may have at least something to do with observing frogs croaking. Of course this does not occur in the Dravidian linguistics. Additionally, please note that even among Indo-European languages, Sanskrit preserves the "R" and "RR" as is, without guna or vrddhi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Europ ... consonants

As we discussed a long time back, it is not clear to me whether the language itself was revealed along with the Vedas or whether the language was then invented specifically for recording these revelations.

The picture is quite impressive foreboding the 'cloud burst' which we observe in parts of Kerala during the onset of Monsoon.

Yes, indeed I had the opportunity to observe this again recently in Kerala. The picture itself was taken further up the west coast (in Maharashtra), I believe. If I remember correctly, the road visible on the side is the old Mumbai-Pune road, which has now been superseded by the new Mumbai-Pune Expressway (MPE). One sees the same type of scenery all along the west coast, the main variation being the number of coconut trees.

Look forward to an interesting and enlightening dialogue!

Sounds good !

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Jul 2009, 22:41

Thanks, keerthi. My comments in reply to your observations:

keerthi wrote:Doesn't it mean Collection of seasons (samhAra = samAhAra, like in vEni-samhAra, the play by BhaTTAnArAyaNa..?)

Yes, "samhara" is taken to have the meaning of "description" in the sense of "collecting" various thoughts into a single place. In rtusamhara there is a back-to-back description of all the seasons.

- MD has followed a pallavi-Anupallavi dwitIyAkSaraprAsam scheme very strictly.. {Even in krtis with only two musical units..}

Ah, you touch upon issues that we have discussed previously on an ongoing basis as the compositions here unfold. My idea of charanam is different from MD's. My compositions are not modeled after his, but may use his compositions as a loose structural model.

Of course, it is not particularly difficult to compose with the standard "template" of Sanskrit CM compositions...I have several in this thread which are in the "standard" format. Many of the compositions have been reworked out of this "standard" format, mainly in the charanam.

That being said, MD is also not fully strict in applying prosody. There are authentic MD compositions which do not do so fully. Tyagaraja is much more strict. You can look up a previous discussion on this.

- Lyric with a preponderance of conjunct consonants (samyuktAkSara-s) make the sAhitya less amenable to music.. MD excelled in lyrical finesse, pada-lAlityaM, where the sahityam even when read, had a musical quality about it..(the srIranjani piece dum durgE jumps to mind, as a good example..)

This is thought by many especially in South India. The use of vowels and "soft" consonants is thought to be more "musical". Telugu is often mentioned as an ideal language because of the preponderance of vowels. But even Telugu compositions rely upon Sanskrit words to provide the classical "weight" and majesty, otherwise they are somewhat too fluid.

As for the present compositions: in previous discussions I have mentioned that there is a balance and that every syllable is carefully thought out, examined, and then integrated with the raga and the tala structure. They are not words taken from the puranas and then paraphrased to fit the "standard" CM template. The compositions of MD and ST (and others in Sanskrit) fit this template very well, but are not amenable to more narrative lyricism as seen in the present compositions.

In the present case there is a preponderance of long vowels, the lakshanas of Megh are very suitable for execution at these points. As for the samyuktaksharas, almost all are based around the "R" theme - which is central to the charanam - it is closely connected to Vedas, yajnas, priests, frogs, and the monsoon. My compositions explore these issues in an integrated way (raga-tala-sahitya are all integrated, the latter is not just fitted to the raga and tala post-composition).

Musically speaking, samyuktaksharas are ideal for providing solid anchors that lend further majesty to the composition and prevent it from being too fluid or "effeminate". They are ideal for locating emphasis swaras. The sonorous tabla accompaniment is the perfect backdrop for this. Example: "prAvRD Rg" - three consonants which are set to particular swaras to create a specific effect. The rhythm is calculated to support this. The recurrence of r, R, R is important to the theme and is also calculated. The idea that compound consonants are less "musical" is too simplistic, and perhaps serves only to highlight the narrow focus that CM has confined itself to over the last 3 centuries.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Jul 2009, 22:45

cmlover wrote:By the by some claim that ^RtusamhAra was not written by Kalidasa!

Oh, I did not know this. What is the rationale? Rtusamhara is supposed to be a product of Kalidasa's younger days, it shows vigor and unbridled "amorous" nature. Whereas works like Raghuvamsha are supposed to be from his later years. There is a definite difference in the style of composition, from my readings at least I can feel this. This evolution is only to be expected.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 20 Jul 2009, 13:46

To avoid any confusion on this raga, it is probably wise to post Pt. Ramashreya Jha's explanation again:

http://www.sawf.org/audio/sarang/jha_sarangspeak.ram

The comment at the end of this exposition is very appropriate:

"yasya nAsti svayam prajn~A SAstram tasya karOti kim
lOcanAbhyAm vihInasya darpaNah kim karishyati"

knandago2001 wrote:Rashid Khan - Raag Megh - Vilambit Khayal in Jhap Taal - Garaje ghata ghana - includes lyrics of the bandish and meaning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC12elC5 ... re=related

This is actually a ho-hum, "chalta-hai" rendition of Megh.

True to his name, Pt. Basavaraj Rajguru does the job correctly in 3 minutes. This composition traditionally incorporates the komal gandhara which strictly speaking is not a swara of Megh.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/3t2t8f

Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khansaheb - Morey mandir ab aawo saajan - Raag Megh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS1f-OlJ ... re=related

This is much better.

SR

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 20 Jul 2009, 15:11

SR: Thanks for posting the link to Pt. Ramashreya Jha's commentary. The reason why I posted the links to audio clips was so that one could compare and contrast "raag chalan" as demonstrated by musicians of different gharanas. Lakshaya would thus be given importance equal to that of lakshana. The versions of Megh by musicians who hint at / use (ishaara lagana / istemaal) the komal gandhar do not take away from the overall raagdaari or rasa.

Link to renditions by Pt. Vidyadhar Vyas (Gwalior gharana), Vid. Shubha Mudgal (a pupil of Pt. Ramashreya Jha) and Pt. Ajoy Chakraborty (Patiala gharana)
http://indian-classicalmusic.blogspot.c ... -megh.html

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 20 Jul 2009, 15:34

I recognise that you structure your compositions after those of MD to some degree, but fashion them after your own mind..I get that, and these further comments are not so much on your krti, but on your comments..

Sangeet Rasik wrote:
That being said, MD is also not fully strict in applying prosody. There are authentic MD compositions which do not do so fully. Tyagaraja is much more strict. You can look up a previous discussion on this.

MD has taken liberties with first letter prAsa and last letter prAsa, but i think he has never compromised the Pallavi-Anupallavi dwitIyakSara prAsa..[At least in the undisputed krti-s, except in the rUpavati piece] could you point to me to the discussion, to avoid repetitions.. I couldn't locate one..

Sangeet Rasik wrote:This is thought by many especially in South India. The use of vowels and "soft" consonants is thought to be more "musical". Telugu is often mentioned as an ideal language because of the preponderance of vowels. But even Telugu compositions rely upon Sanskrit words to provide the classical "weight" and majesty, otherwise they are somewhat too fluid.
........

..........................
Musically speaking, samyuktaksharas are ideal for providing solid anchors that lend further majesty to the composition and prevent it from being too fluid or "effeminate". They are ideal for locating emphasis swaras. The sonorous tabla accompaniment is the perfect backdrop for this. Example: "prAvRD Rg" - three consonants which are set to particular swaras to create a specific effect. The rhythm is calculated to support this. The recurrence of r, R, R is important to the theme and is also calculated. The idea that compound consonants are less "musical" is too simplistic, and perhaps serves only to highlight the narrow focus that CM has confined itself to over the last 3 centuries.

SR

1. Telugu compositions which use sanskrt words don't consciously incorporate sanskrt words for effect. Sanskrt words have been part of literary telugu for long enough.. about the effect of S words in T songs, you are entitled to your opinion..

2. The idea of the musical-ness of lyric is not just that of 'CM (thinkers) from the last 3 centuries'.. Choice of words, not just for their import, but for the sounds they employ, has been used to greatr effect by poets like vAlmIki [use of the Ta-varga mUrdhanya-s to depict the destruction of madhuvana by the vAnara-s etc.]

previous poets and aesthetes have commented on 'dhwani' and the importance of the import of lyric, as suggested by its very sound, even when recited plainly..

3.I have heard the shahAna navAvaranam sung by a viduSi, very conscientious about sahityam as ' hrInkArEsvaryAM gauryAM , where it sounded real unpleasant and grating, because of her not knowing how to enunciate the compounds pleasantly...

You are mistaken if you construe my observation as some kind of statement to the effect 'CM abhors compound consonants' or 'Don't use samyuktAkSara-s'

4. elaborate 'narrow focus that CM has confined itself to over the last 3 centuries'

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 20 Jul 2009, 18:56

Nandago(pal?),

knandago2001 wrote: The reason why I posted the links to audio clips was so that one could compare and contrast "raag chalan" as demonstrated by musicians of different gharanas. Lakshaya would thus be given importance equal to that of lakshana.

Yes, certainly. I understand and appreciate. This is a good idea and will surely help to understand the raga better. After listening I thought RK's treatment was somewhat random. He mixes in too much Malhar and Sarang, doing exactly the things which are not supposed to be done.

He liberally uses P R S (Sarang) without stopping for enough tme at the M. Also, he uses the R P R M sangati clearly, which is Malhar. In Megh connection of R and P without M is prohibited in both arohana and avarohana.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 20 Jul 2009, 20:14

Keerthi,

keerthi wrote:I recognise that you structure your compositions after those of MD to some degree, but fashion them after your own mind..I get that, and these further comments are not so much on your krti, but on your comments..

Yes of course. All your points are interesting and make for good discussion (which is also partly the reason for this thread, apart from composition posts). Please don't think I am misconstruing your posts. My reply was purely based on my real-life experiences (please see below).

keerthi wrote: MD has taken liberties with first letter prAsa and last letter prAsa, but i think he has never compromised the Pallavi-Anupallavi dwitIyakSara prAsa..[At least in the undisputed krti-s, except in the rUpavati piece] could you point to me to the discussion, to avoid repetitions.. I couldn't locate one..

First of all - in CM the rules pertain mainly to dvitIyAkshara prAsa (DP) and yati (Y) (will discuss those in detail below). There is strictly speaking no requirement for prathamAkshara prasa (PP) nor antyaprAsa (AP).

The latter (AP), however, fits in perfectly with the "standard template" for Sanskrit compositions in CM as I mentioned before. This usually involves mentioning the subject in the pallavi, followed by a single verb, and the rest of the composition consisting of compound adjectives in the same vibhakti. Therefore, for example, if your first word is "subrahmaNyEna" (tRtIya vibhakti) then all you have to do is supply the verb (say "samrakshitOham") and then construct all your adjectives in the a-declension so they all automatically end with -"Ena". This is trivial. But when you compose pieces that don't use this template, it becomes severely restrictive, and usually meaningless, to use AP. I use it when it fits with the overall flow, but otherwise I don't get too concerned with it.

Coming to DP: The thing with DP is that while rhyming the second letter is important, the choice of the first letter is even more important. The best/correct DP is when the first letter has the same length throughout (i.e. either hrasva or dIrgha), and the second letter rhymes throughout and also has the same length throughout. Less preferred, but still OK, is when the second letter differs in length but still rhymes, and the first letter requirement is still satisfied. Worst is when the first letter requirement is not satisfied. Examples:

Best: hara - pari. The dvitiyakshara is always "r" and hrasva (could be a-i-u-R, doesn't matter) and more importantly the first letter is hrasva (doesn't matter what the letter is)

OK: hara - parA. The first letter requirement is satisfied, but the dvitiyakshara changes in length. This is not a strict no-no but still not great.

Bad: hara - hAra. The first letter changes in length.

There are several examples of MD kritis where the dvitiyakshara prasa is not fully satisfied, in pallavi-anupallavi and also within charanam. Examples: "kAmESvarENa" in Sriraga. Mismatch between "kAmESvarENa" and "kamalESa-" in the pallavi and anupallavi respectively. Similarly, "pAlayamAm" in kannada. Mismatch between "pAlaya" in pallavi and "malaya" and "vallabhE" in anupallavi. Then there is "lalitAparamESvarI" in suraTi, mismatch between "lalitA" in pallavi and "kOlAhala" and "kAilAsa" in samashticharanam. As far as I know these kritis are not spurious.

Will reply to the other part of your post later.

SR

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 20 Jul 2009, 20:42

sangeeth rasik wrote:Coming to DP: The thing with DP is that while rhyming the second letter is important, the choice of the first letter is even more important. The best/correct DP is when the first letter has the same length throughout (i.e. either hrasva or dIrgha), and the second letter rhymes throughout and also has the same length throughout. Less preferred, but still OK, is when the second letter differs in length but still rhymes, and the first letter requirement is still satisfied. Worst is when the first letter requirement is not satisfied. Examples:

Best: hara - pari. The dvitiyakshara is always "r" and hrasva (could be a-i-u-R, doesn't matter) and more importantly the first letter is hrasva (doesn't matter what the letter is)

OK: hara - parA. The first letter requirement is satisfied, but the dvitiyakshara changes in length. This is not a strict no-no but still not great.

Bad: hara - hAra. The first letter changes in length.

I can't believe this..! it is most uncanny..

I have made these very same observations(which is no biggie) and given them the same name!!

I called it uttama, madhyama and adhama dvitIyAkSara-prAsa(DAP)

I totally agree with all this.. And very naturally follow it, on the rare occasion when I try my hand at composing..

sangeeth rasik wrote:There are several examples of MD kritis where the dvitiyakshara prasa is not fully satisfied, in pallavi-anupallavi and also within charanam. Examples: "kAmESvarENa" in Sriraga. Mismatch between "kAmESvarENa" and "kamalESa-" in the pallavi and anupallavi respectively. Similarly, "pAlayamAm" in kannada. Mismatch between "pAlaya" in pallavi and "malaya" and "vallabhE" in anupallavi. Then there is "lalitAparamESvarI" in suraTi, mismatch between "lalitA" in pallavi and "kOlAhala" and "kAilAsa" in samashticharanam. As far as I know these kritis are not spurious.

I don't belong to the everything-in-SSP-is-true,-all-else-is-spurious faction.. But DAP is very conscientiously followed in ALL the MD krti-s in the SangIta sampradAya PradarSinI... upto 90% of them in my 'Uttama category' too..

And of the songs you mention, the kannaDa one is definitely suspect.. Two books give ANupallavi sAhitya as 'guruguha siva sUnO bhayaharanipuNO'

The DIkSita may be guilty of some colloquialisms, but not this kind of glaring, 3rd-standard-student mistake

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Jul 2009, 21:10

Nice discussion SR! Keep going...

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 21 Jul 2009, 00:21

keerthi wrote:I don't belong to the everything-in-SSP-is-true,-all-else-is-spurious faction.. But DAP is very conscientiously followed in ALL the MD krti-s in the SangIta sampradAya PradarSinI... upto 90% of them in my 'Uttama category' too..

Strictly speaking, that only tells us that the compiler of the SSP was conscientious in "making sure" that DP is followed in the kritis.

MD kritis may very well have been "polished" by disciples. Tyagaraja, ST kritis etc also have most certainly been polished to various extents.

And of the songs you mention, the kannaDa one is definitely suspect.. Two books give ANupallavi sAhitya as 'guruguha siva sUnO bhayaharanipuNO'

Again, that only tells us the quality of the sahitya available to the person who compiled the book. He might have got it in a garbled form and simply reproduced it.

The DIkSita may be guilty of some colloquialisms, but not this kind of glaring, 3rd-standard-student mistake

The fact that 10% of the kritis don't have "uttama" DP but only "madhyama" could also raise similar questions. Why the great composer could not make it 100% uttama ? The possible answer is that sometimes he may just not have felt like it. I think that the overall pursuit of prosodical accuracy is a very good thing, and if properly done adds to the beauty of the composition *but only in conjunct with* many other literary devices. It should not be used as a "stick" to beat the composer, especially if it is otherwise well-known and well-demonstrated that the composer has a firm knowledge of these technical details. MD, if he were alive today, would have no trouble in "fixing" these issues within a couple of days.

On the other hand I agree with you that a composer who rarely uses prosody and produces just a "standard-issue" composition with no new/unusual features (that might justify omitting prosody), is too casual and cannot be called "uttama". Most composers these days do not bother, and do not display any firm knowledge of these things. But then again, most compositions are usually "playing in the same pond" as the Trinity were playing in and so it probably does not matter. Newer approaches that retain "classicism" but depart from the previous approaches, are always harder to develop.

SR

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Jul 2009, 00:39

But then again, most compositions are usually "playing in the same pond" as the Trinity were playing

This kind of remarks bothers me. Not your characterization of what 'most composers' do but for treating the Trinity as a homogeneous whole. That is not justfiable. I definitely grant you without debate such a characterization on possible minutia related to sahitya since I do not know anything about it but on other musical aspects, their compositions fall into a wide spectrum. Fine, if you want to tread a different path, in fact I enjoy those, but to do that we do not need to homogenize something unnecessarily. If the context of your statement is only with respect to sahitya you can ignore these comments.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 21 Jul 2009, 02:16

vasanthakokilam wrote:This kind of remarks bothers me. Not your characterization of what 'most composers' do but for treating the Trinity as a homogeneous whole. That is not justfiable.

Not reading the post can be even more bothersome. Did I say the Trinity was a "homogeneous whole" ? Do the compositions of MD and T and SS seem like a "homogeneous whole" ? Not to me.

I said that most later composers are using the same format and compositional concepts developed by the Trinity - whether it is the followers of T's model or MD's model or SS' model. Hence "playing in the same pond". It is a phrase used to suggest that a particular activity has reached a level of saturation and has become confined with little expansion.

If the context of your statement is only with respect to sahitya you can ignore these comments.

Well, keerthi and I are discussing sahitya and prosody last time I checked. What else are you referring to?

SR

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Jul 2009, 02:42

SR, It was not a problem of not reading your post. I did not understand the phrase 'playing in the same pond' the way you have explained. That helps. Thanks for the clarification. ( on a lighter note, I misunderstood that phrase as a translation of an equivalent colloquial saying in many indian languages. Like, in Tamil it will be 'orE kuttayil Uriya mattai'

.. Anyway, back to the scholarly discussion, I will sit back, read and learn )

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Jul 2009, 07:37

In my view VK's comment should not be trivialized. There is a wide variety of composers in CM who have their individuality. Only the 'sishya paramparai' were composing a la Trinity. A number of Tamil composers (Koteeswara Iyer/GKB/Ambujam Krishna/ OVK (of course since he predates)/..) Again Swati was not a cheap imitator of the Trinity style as yet again JC Wodeyar. P Sivan of course towed the line since he was immersed in T's style and Music.

The problem was that the performers tend to play it safe by sticking to Trinity and do not boldly venture into new kritis and explore their beauty. For that reason in spite of the excellence and appreciation from us, SR, your compositions will be ignored and dumped into the bin like the rest. We need a revolution among the CM performers and an awareness to be brought about by the Rasika's concerted efforts!

sr_iyer · Post by **sr_iyer** » 21 Jul 2009, 08:19

Keerthi,

The kRti from the SSP stock that seemingly does not comply to dvitIyAkshaprAsa is s'rI mUlAdhAra (pallavi) vis-a-vis mUlAj~nAna (anupallavi). Of course, a small rearrangement by starting the pallavi with mUlAdhAra and using s'rI as a wrap-around back to the starting (mUlAdhAra) can easily yield dvitIyAksharaprAsa. The SSP notation however begins with s'rI. (A minor point however IMHO; the magnificence of s'rI mUlAdhAra makes us forget this aspect ...)

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 21 Jul 2009, 08:46

Thanks, VK.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 21 Jul 2009, 09:13

cmlover wrote:In my view VK's comment should not be trivialized. There is a wide variety of composers in CM who have their individuality. Again Swati was not a cheap imitator of the Trinity style as yet again JC Wodeyar. P Sivan of course towed the line since he was immersed in T's style and Music.

Nobody trivialized it. Very true about Swati Tirunal (as I have spent many posts arguing with you that he in fact has his "different" style which had something refreshing to add

). I am glad you agree. "samAnam manaH"

I think a key point (which we inevitably come back to all the time) is that you can pick your composer from the list above, but the unchanging feature is that ultimately almost all their compositions have essentially the same themes, and that in turn necessitates a certain structure and approach, which in spite of minor variations between the composers, is restrictive.

I'm not focusing on the relative personal merits of any individual composer, I'm critiquing the ideas and conceptual framework that molded all of them to a large extent.

The problem was that the performers tend to play it safe by sticking to Trinity and do not boldly venture into new kritis and explore their beauty.

Yes, this was a recurring theme in our previous discussions/threads on "Secular Themes" etc. Recall my (partly humorous) introduction of the concept of "TNT" (Trinity 'N Tradition").... playing with it can be dangerous and lead to explosive fallouts.

For that reason in spite of the excellence and appreciation from us, SR, your compositions will be ignored and dumped into the bin like the rest.

This is the only part of your post I don't agree with. As I have said time and again, my intention is not to gain cheap popularity. Right now, the focus is on building. Other things will come later. There is a "plan".

We need a revolution among the CM performers and an awareness to be brought about by the Rasika's concerted efforts!

Totally agree, as I have also written in detail in the old thread. But sadly, many are engaged in appreciating the "king's new clothes" on a full-time basis. No names to be taken - but for example, just yesterday I was browsing the threads and there was a video of a musician who, making frightful facial contortions and hand movements and sweating bricks, was merely carrying out some banal excursions on a raga which is little more than a pratimadhyama melakarta scale, at a breakneck speed with no aesthetic appeal whatsoever. And this was being acclaimed as a great achievement !

How do you expect a revolution under such circumstances? Usually revolutions occur when the "oppressed" are sick and tired of the "oppressors". But when the "musically oppressed" are in fact egging on the "oppressors", revolutions of any sort seem unlikely !!

SR

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 21 Jul 2009, 11:59

sr_iyer wrote:Keerthi,

The kRti from the SSP stock that seemingly does not comply to dvitIyAkshaprAsa is s'rI mUlAdhAra (pallavi) vis-a-vis mUlAj~nAna (anupallavi). Of course, a small rearrangement by starting the pallavi with mUlAdhAra and using s'rI as a wrap-around back to the starting (mUlAdhAra) can easily yield dvitIyAksharaprAsa. The SSP notation however begins with s'rI. (A minor point however IMHO; the magnificence of s'rI mUlAdhAra makes us forget this aspect ...)

The SSP krti-s with DAP problems are (srI) duM durgE in srIranjani, (srI)mulAdhAra in srI, ramacandrENa in mAnji and srIkRSNam bhaja in rUpavatI.. The explanation/solution for the first two, is evident - appending srI- to the end of the pallavi and/or anupallavi.. I have a solution for the mAnjI piece; treat the so called P and AP as one unit and treat the 'caraNaM' beginning kAmakOTi sundarENa as another.. For the rupavatI song, I take refuge in the the fact that the first two syllables pose a knotty phrase to maintain DAP .. And the 'srI-kR-' and 'chakra' is still a prasa of the 'madhyama' kind..

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 21 Jul 2009, 19:16

keerthi wrote:The SSP krti-s with DAP problems are (srI) duM durgE in srIranjani, (srI)mulAdhAra in srI, ramacandrENa in mAnji and srIkRSNam bhaja in rUpavatI...

Keerthi and Iyer,

Sri muladhara has absolutely no problem with prasa (or even yati for that matter). The samam should start at "mU" not at "SrI". The next word "amUlya.." is also split (a-mUlya). The "a" is sung in place of "SrI" and "mU" again comes on samam. This also preserves the "yati" (punctuation) between the 2 halves of the line. This is a well known trick used by MD, we don't need to "invent" the explanation of course. I have used it in many compositions as well. There may be many musicians who sing the kriti with samam on SrI without appreciating the prosody, but this is incorrect.

Similar thing with "dum durge" - again no need to speculate. The samam *could* be on "dum", and "SrI" wraps the half-line (as Iyer also mentioned). Well-known trick. But then the word "chidrasavargE" is a bit problematic since yati will be lost. If it is split in the correct manner, i.e. "chid-rasa" (with "chid" replacing "SrI") then the yati is lost (no rhyme between "dum" and "ra"). But the (somewhat unorthodox) solution is to take refuge in the music. If one sings the "chi" in a somewhat elongated manner, i.e. "chi...drasa" then it gives an impression to the ear that yati is preseved (rhyme between "dum" and "dra" is OK). As such yati is not a requirement, but since it is present in the rest of the composition, one may as well try to fit it in the pallavi. However, the kriti as such is OK on prasa even if samam is on SrI.

By the way, treating pallavi and anupallavi as a single unit *is* the well-known standard approach, there is no doubt about it. Standard approach: P and AP are one prosodical unit. Each charanam is independent *prosodically*. However, in "standard-template" Sanskrit compositions, the charanams are usually not independent *grammatically* since they still rely on the pallavi to supply the verb. In my compositions, often the charanam has its own independent *grammatical* and *prosodical* identity with complete sentences, often multiple verbs and/or participles, and the structure is quite different from the P-AP unit. I've commented on this in a previous post of this same thread.

The word "samashticharanam" of MD is somewhat a misnomer, since in his "two-unit" compositions this samashticharanam is still linked with the pallavi prosodically, as if it were an anupallavi. In my compositions, they are often treated separately, precisely because I may want the freedom to use the charanam differently.

Will comment on the other kritis, as well as unfinished reply to your previous post, later today. Must run now !

SR

rajesh_rs · Post by **rajesh_rs** » 21 Jul 2009, 19:27

Whoa, compositions for Lalu Yadav and Dhirubhai Ambani?! Unwarranted, and bordering on cheesy, IMO.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Jul 2009, 19:40

SR

I agree! samAnI AkUtiH samAnA h^RidayAni ca

By the by
prAv^RSh = monsoon would become prAv^RT as stand alone and not prAv^RD since there is no sandhi there!
Again
^Rgmiya tE mudrAshliShTaM (laudable your belending of your mudra subtly)
RtusamhArAnanditakavinAyaka = Kalidasa = SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 21 Jul 2009, 23:58

CML,

cmlover wrote:By the by prAv^RSh = monsoon would become prAv^RT as stand alone and not prAv^RD since there is no sandhi there!

Again (I say this very sincerely) you have a knack of going to the difficult parts of the sahitya straightaway and making pertinent comments. But also, you are incorrect in the conclusion

. I did verify this before finalizing the composition.

Yes, the noun is prAvRsh (rainy season), the nominative then becomes prAvRT. Now when it undergoes *external sandhi (as is the case here)* with a simple vowel (such as R) it must change to D. If it was *internal sandhi (i.e. for adding terminations to roots and stems)* then you are correct, it would remain T. There is a subtle difference. Please see, e.g., Macdonnell sections 16 and 32.

Also, when still in doubt, as a last resort one can use the sandhi engine below. It is part of a larger site that helps verify issues in declension, conjugation, and sandhi. For fun, I have tested it with many "difficult cases" in the past. It is amazingly accurate !! It recognizes all the difficult/exceptional cases I have tried. The people who developed it have taken great pains to include even the most subtle and obscure irregularities and special cases.

http://sanskrit.inria.fr/sanskrit.html

As expected, a test shows that for external sandhi with the words "praav.r.t" and ".rg" the result is "prAvRD Rg. But change the radio button to internal sandhi, and as expected it is now "prAvRT Rg".

^Rgmiya tE mudrAshliShTaM (laudable your belending of your mudra subtly) RtusamhArAnanditakavinAyaka = Kalidasa = SR

Thanks! Yes the mudra is always there. But please don't equate Kalidasa = SR, even in jest it does not sound good. Where is he and where am I. As before I quote Raghuvamsha: "titirshur dustaram mohad udupenasmi sagaram mandah kaviyasah prarthi gamishyami upahasyatam pranshulabhya phale lobhad udbahur iva vamanah".

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 22 Jul 2009, 00:35

rajesh_rs wrote:Whoa, compositions for Lalu Yadav and Dhirubhai Ambani?! Unwarranted, and bordering on cheesy, IMO.

I am a cheesy individual. Deal with it....or don't

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jul 2009, 08:01

Or don't

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 22 Jul 2009, 08:24

arasi wrote:Or don't

Yes. Appropriate change made in post #790.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jul 2009, 08:56

SR,
I am flattered that you added my post to yours!
However, even with my faulty logic I can see a twist to it. It can mislead a few to understand it as if I 'chose' to say what I said after you had offered the choice!
No big deal, though

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 22 Jul 2009, 09:24

Arasi,

No problem. You have added the caveat, so there can be no confusion now. We have both increased our "post count" and added a few more "Times Viewed" to the thread. Can't hurt.

SR

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 22 Jul 2009, 09:57

Sangeet Rasik wrote: Similar thing with "dum durge" - again no need to speculate. The samam *could* be on "dum", and "SrI" wraps the half-line (as Iyer also mentioned). ....................................
.............................
such yati is not a requirement, but since it is present in the rest of the composition, one may as well try to fit it in the pallavi. However, the kriti as such is OK on prasa even if samam is on SrI.

whoa! sorry there... how will sri-dum durgE coform to DAP with dundubhi-vAdya-bhEda..? samam must definitely begin with dum durgE..

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 22 Jul 2009, 10:34

keerthi wrote: whoa! sorry there... how will sri-dum durgE coform to DAP with dundubhi-vAdya-bhEda..? samam must definitely begin with dum durgE..

The dvitiyaprasakshara can be dum and SrI will be the samam. SrIdum and dundubhi. Again an example of OK (not best) prasa. Please keep in mind the yati as well. SrIdum is good yati for chidrasa or even "sthirE-", whichever is the yati. But if "dum" is the samam then there is no possibility of yati in the pallavi.

Coming back to DP: if samam is on dum, then the DP akshara will be dumdurgE, NOT dum or dun. Again, we have a situation of OK prasa, dumdurgE and dundubhi...first letter length is fine (both dum and dun are dirgha) but second letter is dirgha in one and hrasva in other. Technically OK but no net gain in comparison to the previous case. If anything, net loss since no yati.

I have not learned this kriti and only heard a rendition by BMK several years ago, so I don't remember where he located the samam.

SR

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 23 Jul 2009, 12:22

shri dum durgE by DKJ: http://sangeethamshare.org/sunil/gurugu ... M--DKJ.mp3

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 23 Jul 2009, 12:35

Sangeet Rasik wrote: The dvitiyaprasakshara can be dum and SrI will be the samam. SrIdum and dundubhi. Again an example of OK (not best) prasa. Please keep in mind the yati as well. SrIdum is good yati for chidrasa or even "sthirE-", whichever is the yati. But if "dum" is the samam then there is no possibility of yati in the pallavi.

Coming back to DP: if samam is on dum, then the DP akshara will be dumdurgE, NOT dum or dun. Again, we have a situation of OK prasa, dumdurgE and dundubhi...first letter length is fine (both dum and dun are dirgha) but second letter is dirgha in one and hrasva in other. Technically OK but no net gain in comparison to the previous case. If anything, net loss since no yati.

I have not learned this kriti and only heard a rendition by BMK several years ago, so I don't remember where he located the samam.

SR

forgive me for nitpicking, but -

1. I don't see a case for yati here.. MD has used 5 Avarta-s of a 5 akSara tAla here.. MD doesn't seem to have consciously maintained yati in his krti corpus.. While he is very particular about DAP..Tell me more about how imperative it is to have yati in musical compositions.. As far as I see, even poets don't adhere to it too tightly, in metric poems..

2. dum of pallavi and dun of anupallavi have same length, which is something we agree upon.. however your use of hrasva/dIrgha troubles me.. the du-s in durgE and dundubhi are hrasva..
By chandasshAstra reckoning, the former is a guru and the latter a laghu..

This still is a case for uttama DAP, the length(in terms of laghu-guru, not hrasva-dIrgha) of the first syllable must be the same, and the consonant* of the second syllable must be the same (irrespective of length)

in other words - 1st syllable should be same length; 2nd syllable should be same letter..

this is my empirical observation based on all the compositions I have studied..and there is plenty of evidence to corroborate it..

* - simple or samyukta..

3. both BMK's and DKJ's versions of the srIranjani song start with srI on samam.. I can't comment on that..

Examples of uttama DAP -

# The shahAna song, srI-kaMALaLAmbikAyam has rAkA-candra in the anupallavi -
Here, srIka and rAkA are uttama DAP(in my book)

#the yamunA piece, jambu-patE has ambujasanAdi.. jambU and ambu are uttama DAP..

# the Ahari piece, srI-kamalAmbA jayati has sUkarAnana.. srIka- and sUka-, i consaider as uttama DAP..

rajesh_rs · Post by **rajesh_rs** » 23 Jul 2009, 16:52

Sangeet Rasik wrote:
rajesh_rs wrote:Whoa, compositions for Lalu Yadav and Dhirubhai Ambani?! Unwarranted, and bordering on cheesy, IMO.
I am a cheesy individual. Deal with it....or don't

Hehe. I couldn't have claimed that anyone is an unwarranted individual, so cheesy is probably better.