Justification in changing the technical-terms of music to th

Languages used in Carnatic Music & Literature
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msakella
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Post by msakella »

Hi all. The technical-terms of our Karnataka music prescribed in the music syllabi have recently been changed in Tamilnadu. But, surprisingly, the names of Talas and Ragas are omitted from such change to avoid the uproar from the musicians. I will not be surprised if even the names of Talas and Ragas are also changed in near future. By all this many of the aspirants from other States are hesitating to study in the Institutions of Tamilnadu. Being the Mecca of Karnataka music on the globe and instead of behaving like elder bothers of Karnataka music if they start doing such things it mostly affects the artists of Tamilnadu only than others. While the same technical-terms of music are being followed by all the musicians all over the globe in the same manner since many centuries, now, such change is highly disheartening and helps only to disintegrate our musicians. Of course, everybody is aware that, except fanatics and lunatics, no genuine person does such things.

More over, while there are great composers like Papanasam Shivan and many others in Tamilnadu, I do not see any point in replacing the tamil-lyric for many other compositions in music as if there are no good composers at all in Tamilnadu. Only impotent people steal things from others as they can never earn them truthfully.

Every truthful, sincere and honest musician must absolutely condemn this dreadful act in the interest of unity and integration. If we don’t do this now immediately the artists of Tamilnadu will only be affected more than the artists of all other States as all the artists of other States follow the same music-language to converse with. amsharma
Last edited by msakella on 30 Jul 2009, 11:13, edited 1 time in total.

mohan
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Post by mohan »

akellaji - what are the terms that have been changed?

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, mohan, If a very few technical-terms of the syllabus are changed I can very easily furnish them. But, if many of them are changed how can I make a huge list of them? If you go through the syllabi of the music department of the University you can very easily find it. amsharma

Sundara Rajan
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Post by Sundara Rajan »

akellaji: We in the forum do not have ready access to the syllbi you refer to. Providing a few examples of the silliness should help us appreciate and address your concern. I am almost sure this has to do with coining new tamil terms for words in common universal use, in the name of tamil purity. I can cite a few examples : gaNini for computer, pEundu for bus, tholai kAtchi petti for T.V. etc. gaNini is neither tamil nor is it correct . gaNini comes from sanskrit gaNitham for mathemetics/calculation. Computer is not just a calculator ! Politicians who try to mess up the terms in universal use should rather change their own names such as karuNAnidhi and stalin to Tamil names and set an example !

arunk
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Post by arunk »

This is a tangent. (Although i also cannot relate to many of these words and yes many of these are politically motivated) There is nothing blasphemous in coming with new words in a language to explain new inventions, new things/animals etc. - that is how languages evolve. Of course they can simply import the foreign word as is too.

Btw, sure computer is no longer a calculator, but then why is it still called computer :) ?

But we should stick to the topic at hand.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 30 Jul 2009, 21:16, edited 1 time in total.

gn.sn42
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Post by gn.sn42 »

arunk wrote: But we should stick to the topic at hand.
No, this is more fun.
arunk wrote:Btw, sure computer is no longer a calculator, but then why is it still called computer :) ?
To expand on your point a little, calculators are newer than computers.

Per the OED, "computer" comes from the Middle French computeur, "person who makes calculations" (use dating back to 1578).

The use of "computer" to refer to a device dates back to 1869; while the use of "calculator" to refer to a device only dates back to 1946.

And of course, the first modern computers were built in the 1940s while the first calculators came out in the 1960s.

Edit:
And of course, this is just the English usage: other languages have different terms for computer, such as French (ordinateur), Italian (calcolatore), and Romanian (calculator).
Last edited by gn.sn42 on 30 Jul 2009, 22:18, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

thanks! I did not know that.

Arun

girish_a
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Post by girish_a »

>> I am almost sure this has to do with coining new tamil terms for words in common universal use, in the name of tamil purity

This also includes tamilification of existing unreplacable terms. Examples: "Saralai Varasai". The correct usage ought to be "SaraLa Varase". SaraLa = Simple, Varase = Exercise.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Let us please not confuse issues. The word saraLa/saraLam exists in tamizh too - again meaning simple. So does varisai as in to mean doing work (among other things). However, how/why the morph to saraLi - not sure, but it certainly isn't an tamizhification. Although even if it is, I am continually amazed as to why this causes grief among folks. It is not uncommon for languages to morph words. Why cant we accept that different people use/interpret/experience the same things differently? At the heart of it, if you really think about it, there is no real ownership here - and thus right vs. wrong.

Note: Btw, the ai/am endings in tamizh matching "e" ending in kannada is one of the differences between languages of a related family.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 30 Jul 2009, 22:27, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Sundara Rajan expanded the topic way beyond what msakella wanted to talk about.. Since we are talking about this, just a note that the standard operating procedure in Sanskrit is to come up with new nouns from verbs. So I bet sanskrit when encountered with 'bus', 'computer', or 'quantum physics' will be compelled to coin a word from verb roots and other nouns etc. to capture the essence of what that new thing is. At a fundamental level, it is an honorable thing to do in our culture in other languages as well. We can always question the intention of someone coming up with new words, that is a separate matter.

Personally I am not a fan of having to deal with new words for well established old musical terms or scientific terms. For good or bad, English has become the language of choice for expressing scientific ideas and terms, we have to learn to live with it. For classical music, it is Sanskrit.

On the other hand, I find it annoying to deal with Sanskrit terms for simple stuff when conversing about musical things in English. It just makes things artificially complex and artificially technical. Like "The aesthetic beauty of Panchama Varjya Audava-Shadava Ragas is.....". Right there, you lost a significant percentage of the audience.

Sundara Rajan
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Post by Sundara Rajan »

Arun wrote: There is nothing blasphemous in coming with new words in a language to explain new inventions, new things/animals etc. - that is how languages evolve. Of course they can simply import the foreign word as is too.

I have no qualms with coining a new tamil word for a device that tamils invent. Why coin words for universally used words as Bus, TV, driver etc. ? Go to the remotest village where nobody speaks English and ask for the Bus Stand and you will get the answer? Instead, ask for "pErundu nilayam", the response would be "ennAyyA kEkkurE? ingE yArukkum inglees theriyadu ! So much for "tamilification" !
Last edited by Sundara Rajan on 30 Jul 2009, 22:55, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

sundararajan - whether you have qualms about this or not is certainly your prerogative. But the fact is languages do evolve this way - as and when humans practicing that language encounter new things (not necessarily invented things, but new birds, new animals etc.), they try to express it in their language - either by using words that try to describe it, or use the foreign word (with or without some morphing). Its not like "if we didnt invent it we cannot coin a native word"

Yes - certainly some of these are contrived, and it would be hard to gain acceptance against current usage (but time can change that too). I am not arguing that - it is that language practioneers to come up with these kind of things is not anything new or unnatural.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 30 Jul 2009, 23:48, edited 1 time in total.

bilahari
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Post by bilahari »

So a language's vocabulary should merely be restricted to its oral application? Personally, I abhor reading english words like "bus" or "taxi" transliterated in tamil articles (பஸà¯ÂÂ

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Bilahari, if you'd said 'கà¯ÂÂ

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Bilahari, yes french is a good example. As I wrote above, this kind of word formation is fundamental to our own Sanskrit. If there is no word for cop, how do you come up with a noun for it? Who is a cop? One who provides safety. What is the chief characteristic of one who provides safety? Bravery, someone who does things withour fear. So, abhayankarA , "a ( not) + bhai (fear) + kar (do )", can be a word for cop :) I am sure someone can go through another route and come up with another word, probably a better one.

PUNARVASU
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Post by PUNARVASU »

Sundararajan wrote:
Instead, ask for "pErundu nilayam", the response would be "ennAyyA kEkkurE? ingE yArukkum inglees theriyadu ! So much for "tamilification" !
If you had asked for'pErundu nilayam' first 'and ,not getting an answer,if you ask for 'bus stand' they may even say 'ippaDi tamizhla kETTA solluvOm'- :)
Last edited by PUNARVASU on 31 Jul 2009, 07:09, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

An example of how languages are quirky in their evolving. The word computer is from the old french word, and yet they chose l'ordinateur' when computers came to be! Now 'computer' is popular because they use english words too!
Coming to CM, we surely can guess the meaning of some words even without knowing a language. Examples: kIrtanai, kIrtane, kIrtana, sabha, sabhe, vINai, vINe, etc.
Some of the words which come into popular use are puzzling. sangati is one. How did it come about? One meaning of the word is news (new thing). So, is it a new way of singing the same line? Or, sam+gati? That which goes with?
uruppaDi used to be used for songs (kIrtanai). ettanai uruppaDi pADam (how many songs have you learnt)? Not to be confused with the verb uruppaDudal (to take shape)--nI uruppaDa mATTAi!
saralamAna varisai sarala varisai (easy progression of notes). That 'Li', how did that come about?
Now, bhruga or birga; is it bhruga (a sage's name too) meaning lightening or birhA a ballad, or something else altogether?
ravai puraLvadu= iravai in tamizh is minute matter among other meanings (nuTpap poruL). Is that what it is?
Last edited by arasi on 31 Jul 2009, 08:06, edited 1 time in total.

gn.sn42
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Post by gn.sn42 »

arasi wrote:The word computer is from the old french word, and yet they chose l'ordinateur' when computers came to be! Now 'computer' is popular because they use english words too!
The origin of the French term is interesting: essentially IBM hired someone to come up with a name; he went to the writer Jacques Perret who suggested several options, and ordinateur was chosen. Nothing to do with the Académie française at all.

Web page (in French) on the etymology of ordinateur

sridhar_ranga
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Post by sridhar_ranga »

arasi wrote:saralamAna varisai sarala varisai (easy progression of notes). That 'Li', how did that come about?
Arasi, my text book (I just started learning vocal music a year ago) says 'svarAvaLi varisai' so sarala and svarAvaLi probably gave rise to a hybrid saraLi!

PUNARVASU
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Post by PUNARVASU »

The term 'swarAvaLi' itself means a row of swarams- like 'deepAvaLi' which means 'a row of lights'.- adding 'varisai ' to it is superflous.
Last edited by PUNARVASU on 31 Jul 2009, 11:46, edited 1 time in total.

sridhar_ranga
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Post by sridhar_ranga »

Sundara Rajan wrote:? Go to the remotest village where nobody speaks English and ask for the Bus Stand and you will get the answer? Instead, ask for "pErundu nilayam", the response would be "ennAyyA kEkkurE? ingE yArukkum inglees theriyadu ! So much for "tamilification" !
In the early nineties when emails and cellphones were not yet in vogue, I wanted to send a greeting telegram to a lady classmate on the day of her wedding. I went around the streets of Hyderabad asking for the nearest 'tAr ghar'. After four or five unsuccessful attempts and blank faces, I got my directions asking for 'telegram office' instead.

bilahari
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Post by bilahari »

Ravi, LOL! As children, we often used to confuse கà¯ÂÂ

srikant1987
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Post by srikant1987 »

[quote="bilahari"]"courriel" (a contraction of courrier-electronique, just like e-mail is a contraction of electronic-mail and மினà¯ÂÂ

gopalk
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Post by gopalk »

Taking a different tangent, the use of perfectly good english words to mean something else in Tamil is a mystery to me. An example is "assault".

Avan assault-a car otaraan. Exam assault-a ezhudinen.

Srikanth assault-a sixer adichaan! (at least in this case it may make remote sense - ;-)

sridhar_ranga
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Post by sridhar_ranga »

srikant1987 wrote: We should also bring out new "root" words if need be, for example "click" I suppose comes from just the sound the "mouse" makes when we "press" a "button". Mouse now usually means the thing we attach to the computer, button usually means things we press to send input to some device.
Yes short words have been formed and commonly used for these - 'coDukku' for click (inda URL ai coDukkavum) and 'cuTTi' for mouse.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

cuTTi=cuTTik kATTuvadu? That which points to?? I prefer that to eli (mouse).

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

You mean I have an eli on my desk?

I thought that was a rat? Or is a mouse an chinna eli?


We do seem to have strayed rather from the musical terms controversy which the thread was intended to be...

Sundara Rajan
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Post by Sundara Rajan »

Nick is right. I opened the pandoras box of linguistic fanaticism (partiotism ?)and We have drifted far from the original question posed by Akellaji. We never got to know what change in technical terms in music he was taking about in his original post. Perhaps he could share his grievance with us so we may discuss it.

bahudari
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Post by bahudari »

Recent posts in this forum gives an impression that even this forum has been tamilified :)

arasi
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Post by arasi »

You may be right. I tend to translate the tamizh alongside. I am slipping perhaps. I do realize that some of the stuff is tough to translate. Yet, if there were more telugu and kannada lines, those who do not understand would ask what it all means...

VK RAMAN
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Post by VK RAMAN »

We welcome other language speaking rasikAs to participate more.

coolkarni
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Post by coolkarni »

..
Last edited by coolkarni on 26 Aug 2009, 18:06, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Translation: Fine, from this day, I will take part even more :)

Cool,
Many will not mind, that para bhAshA line coming from you, the bounty bringing genie :)

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

VK RAMAN wrote:We welcome other language speaking rasikAs to participate more.
coolkarni wrote:Ayithu.
Indininda Innoo hecchagi Bhagavahisutthene.
But not necessarily in their own language! :lol:
bahudari wrote:Recent posts in this forum gives an impression that even this forum has been tamilified
I used to feel shy to ask for translations --- but it seems that I am far from being the only non-Tamil speaker among us.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Nick,
I try to keep non-speakers of the language in, by translating wherever I can. If you felt left out in the 'pun' rides, it is because puns are difficult to translate from any language. Even if you do, the humor is not there any more. It is amazing how much we CAN communicate to each other though, thanks to 'your native tongue'!
I better stop . Don't want to take this thread away from the topic even further...

ganesh_mourthy
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Post by ganesh_mourthy »

the problem is ....I was told that all the telugu and sanskrit varnams were translated to tamil keeping the same tune ,raaga and taala.
it is like cinema dubbing actually.

and only tamil songs are being taught.

ganesh_mourthy
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Post by ganesh_mourthy »

hope we can get back to track

srkris
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Post by srkris »

arasi wrote:Some of the words which come into popular use are puzzling. sangati is one. How did it come about? One meaning of the word is news (new thing). So, is it a new way of singing the same line? Or, sam+gati? That which goes with?
It is saMgati all right. It means going together with.
arasi wrote:uruppaDi used to be used for songs (kIrtanai). ettanai uruppaDi pADam (how many songs have you learnt)?
Seems this is derived from Skt. rUpauruviDi (meaning a unit that is enumerated).

The uru- of uruppaDi refers to repetitive action (of memorizing/rehearsing the piece a number of times).
arasi wrote:Not to be confused with the verb uruppaDudal (to take shape)--nI uruppaDa mATTAi!
I am not sure these words are unrelated. I have a feeling they may be related at the root level.
arasi wrote:saralamAna varisai sarala varisai (easy progression of notes). That 'Li', how did that come about?
saraLi is derived from swarAvaLi, and not from saraLa, of this I am sure. No one has called it saraLa varisai even in the past as far as I know.

Someone said varisai would be redundant since AvaLi already means "row", but that would be true only if the person who says varisai knew that. Apart from a Dikshitar or a Tyagaraja, the majority of the singers (say from TN) have had no idea of sanskrit words or their pronunciation. Varisai is not sanskrit, it is tamil, and it has cognates in Kannada "varisE" and other southern languages.

By the way, when swarAvaLi has already morphed into saraLi, there is no AvaLi in it anymore.
arasi wrote:Now, bhruga or birga; is it bhruga (a sage's name too) meaning lightening or birhA a ballad, or something else altogether?
The sage was bhRgu, not bhruga. I dont know what's the source of the word bruka though.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Seems this is derived from Skt. rUpauruviDi (meaning a unit that is enumerated).

The uru- of uruppaDi refers to repetitive action (of memorizing/rehearsing the piece a number of times).
srkris, that seems to be a stretch or a force fit to me. Not that your derivation/root is not correct, but the meaning of uruppadi does not have much to do with repetition or memorizing, at least in the contexts I am familar with. These are similar to what Arasi had already written. 'onru kooda uruppadi illai' means, 'not even one has made the grade', 'uLari thiripavan vArthaiyilE oru uruppadi thErAdu' to mean 'a confused person's words carry nothing significant'.

So the essence seems to be 'something that is significant, useful, important or something that made the grade'.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vk - the tamil lexicon confirms srkris:
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... 1.tamillex

Arun

sridhar_ranga
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Post by sridhar_ranga »

VK

Not uruppaDi but the word uru does mean repetition/ rote as srkris has said.

Learning by rote/ mugging = uru aDittal (colloquial - heard that in Madurai in my school days)
repeating a mantra (e.g. gAyatri) - uru ETrudal

uruppaDi is also used in the sense of number/ count. (ettanai uruppaDi - e.g. when counting the number of clothes given to dhobi for washing)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Arun. Nice.

Sridhar: Understood. I had that 'learning by rote/repetition/mugging' meaning in mind as well and so 'uru' definitely traces back to that common meaning of 'repetition'. And I do see that in 'etthanai uruppadi', it refers only to countable things. If it is not countable, we will use 'evvaLavu' etc. So I see that.

There are three meanings. Countable items, Useful items and Musical items.

I do not even understand that example usage. What does 'nithyam ezhuruppadi paNiyAram ' mean?

now, how does one go from 'enumerable' (the root ) to 'useful'? That is the 'stretch' I am talking about. Is that just simply 'countably useful'? Meaning uruppadi should not be used for useful things whose usefulness is not countable? Or anything countable is considered useful ( probably not )

sridhar_ranga
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Post by sridhar_ranga »

[quote="vasanthakokilam"]I do not even understand that example usage? What does 'நிதà¯ÂÂ

VK RAMAN
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Post by VK RAMAN »

Chettinad Cuisine as naivedyam at Sri Ramgam temple - interesting!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Sridhar. I got what 'ezuruppadi paNiyAram' means now.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

srkris,
Thanks for the explanations.
Tautological expressions are not uncommon in languages. For emphasis?? So, saraLi varisai is ok. Just as gate vAsal.

uruppaDi also means in fine or finished form, along with count. So, 'how many uruppaDis' do you know can mean, how many krutis do you know in a thorough way??

I forgot another word in my original post: neraval or niraval (to spread out?). Other uages of the word are make do, level. Any clue on its origin?

PUNARVASU
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Post by PUNARVASU »

In one of our earlier threads we have discussed 'niraval'; I have heard my grandmoms say' niravi parimARu-meaning distribute whatever food item is there to all (equally)

vainika
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Post by vainika »

arasi wrote:cuTTi=cuTTik kATTuvadu? That which points to?? I prefer that to eli (mouse).
Those of the pre-X gen might remember this Madras Tamil version of Windows
http://www.citehr.com/53419-tamil-version-windows.html

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Ramki,
What a cannal (window) to the chennai cendamizh! Eighty percent of the words and expressions are unknown to me. veRum pazhangAlam! Anyway, while eli is transliteration, cuTTi describes its function.
Got educated today!

srkris
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Post by srkris »

vasanthakokilam wrote:There are three meanings. Countable items, Useful items and Musical items.
It may not be hard to connect the second and third meanings such as to be derived from the first (countable).

Useful may connote that which could be used again and again (hence "more" useful), and musical items that may have been rehearsed/practised again and again.

உரà¯ÂÂ

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