what is the difference in the gamakas of D and N in keeravani, mayamalavagoula and dhenuka?
please help me!?
thankyou!
differenve between keeravani, mayamalavagoula and dhenuka?
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srinivasrgvn
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PUNARVASU
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Yes, that is what I meant; when some one starts a tODi rAga AlApanA with just the the 'gAndhAram' one can immediately make out the rAgam. In the same manner, it is possible with these rAgams also -it is the way the daivatam or the nishAdam is sung. Shri NSG , in his programme'sarigamapa' in Jaya TV has spoken about many of these nuances, demonstrating them vocally, in the violin and on the veena too.Such a treasure trove.
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Ramasubramanian M.K
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The scales themselves in isolation do not lend melody to the raga-As I had said in one of my earlier posts(I do not recall which topic) the late GNB used to stress(when asked about the acceptance of rare ragas with less than four swaras) that the sequence and the prayogam in Krithi are equally important (because some of the notes permit some oscillations- and some do not-- Sankararabharanam --the Anthara Gandhara cannot be "oscillated"(poor choice of word but you get the drift) because the madhyamam is too close whereas the same Gandhara can be oscillated in kalyani--the ratio of frequencies(I got this from C.S.Iyer's book--CS Iyer was the brother of the Nobel laureate C.V.Raman and father of Nobel laureate Chandrasekhar) between SA and Anthara Gandhara is 1 to 1.25,the ratio between Sa and Ma(Suddha) is 1 to 1.33 and ratio between Sa and Pa is 1 to 1.50--so the difference between Ga and Ma is only one-twelfth of the base frequency for Sankarabharanam whereas the gap (between Ga and Maa in Kalyani is greater and hence one takes liberties with the Ga.,in Kalyani and not in Sankarabharanam.
MS Mami--the purist she was --always used to say Kalyani should be begun with Pa Ma Ga rather than Ga Ga Ga as most artistes she felt did especially the younger but seasoned musicians--there should be no doubt in the listener's mind as to what the raga is rather than keep the audience guessing.
The beauty of our music in raga delineation is that(this is from a my personal listening perspective--no scientific or rigorous analysis-based!!) even when you do alapana or more in the swara Prasthara of a sampurna raga like Sankarabharanam one can do Sa Da Pa in the descent omitting the Nishadam and yet it will still be unmistakably Sankarabharanam--same in kalyani the Panchamam ( the rest stop in the scales!)can.
be suppressed in the descent like Nee Da Ma Ga Ri,Da Ma Ga Ri,Ma Gaa Ri Sa Nee .
Artistes like Mali and TNR would deliberately seek this Varjyam(omission or suppression) of a key note in a Gana Raga and yet bring the richness of the raga--TNR's Keeravani--sometimes would suppress the Pa in the descendant(although Keervani is a Krama-Sampurna mela raga) .
The key thing I have heard various artistes expound about ragas is that one should learn as many kirthnam as possible in a Raga before one sets out to do Alapana and one should not try to sing an alapana as if it is just a stringing of discrete notes independent of each other.
Even a raga like Garudadhwani has an elegant symmetry in its own way(reverse of Bilahari or put in another way Sankarabharanam in the Ascent and Mohanam in the Descent) by itself does not lend itself to elaborate Alapana but listening to Lalgudi's varnam in that raga one gets a feel for the raga enough to be able to delineate the raga by dwelling on the key phrases--Pa da Ni Sa Da Pa OR Ri Gam Ma Pa Dha Ni Sa Da Pa with Ma as the jeewaswaram.Thyagarajs krithi Thatvameruga Darama is a brisk piece but by itself does not reveal the full facets of the raga but subsequent compositions by less well-known composers have brought out the facets and these are reflected in lalgudi's Varnam.
I myself have wondered about the paradox of saying a Raga is Krama sampurna Raga and yet omit a key note when one chooses to as ( in Kalyani and Sankarabharanam cited above) and simultaneously object to an elaborate alapana of another Kram sampurna mela karta Raga like Naganandhini or Mara ranjani--Even Santhanam's rendering of Nasikabhushani is based heavily on the Dikshithar krithi(Ramaa Saraswathi) and not a mere stringing of notes with the emphasis on the Shadsruthi rishaba .
T Viswa the Flute Maestro used to tell us to notice how many different ways the Ghandara has been pronounced in the chitaswara of Gajavadhana in Thodi and how each of them sounds distinct!!
Sorry got too long!!--
MS Mami--the purist she was --always used to say Kalyani should be begun with Pa Ma Ga rather than Ga Ga Ga as most artistes she felt did especially the younger but seasoned musicians--there should be no doubt in the listener's mind as to what the raga is rather than keep the audience guessing.
The beauty of our music in raga delineation is that(this is from a my personal listening perspective--no scientific or rigorous analysis-based!!) even when you do alapana or more in the swara Prasthara of a sampurna raga like Sankarabharanam one can do Sa Da Pa in the descent omitting the Nishadam and yet it will still be unmistakably Sankarabharanam--same in kalyani the Panchamam ( the rest stop in the scales!)can.
be suppressed in the descent like Nee Da Ma Ga Ri,Da Ma Ga Ri,Ma Gaa Ri Sa Nee .
Artistes like Mali and TNR would deliberately seek this Varjyam(omission or suppression) of a key note in a Gana Raga and yet bring the richness of the raga--TNR's Keeravani--sometimes would suppress the Pa in the descendant(although Keervani is a Krama-Sampurna mela raga) .
The key thing I have heard various artistes expound about ragas is that one should learn as many kirthnam as possible in a Raga before one sets out to do Alapana and one should not try to sing an alapana as if it is just a stringing of discrete notes independent of each other.
Even a raga like Garudadhwani has an elegant symmetry in its own way(reverse of Bilahari or put in another way Sankarabharanam in the Ascent and Mohanam in the Descent) by itself does not lend itself to elaborate Alapana but listening to Lalgudi's varnam in that raga one gets a feel for the raga enough to be able to delineate the raga by dwelling on the key phrases--Pa da Ni Sa Da Pa OR Ri Gam Ma Pa Dha Ni Sa Da Pa with Ma as the jeewaswaram.Thyagarajs krithi Thatvameruga Darama is a brisk piece but by itself does not reveal the full facets of the raga but subsequent compositions by less well-known composers have brought out the facets and these are reflected in lalgudi's Varnam.
I myself have wondered about the paradox of saying a Raga is Krama sampurna Raga and yet omit a key note when one chooses to as ( in Kalyani and Sankarabharanam cited above) and simultaneously object to an elaborate alapana of another Kram sampurna mela karta Raga like Naganandhini or Mara ranjani--Even Santhanam's rendering of Nasikabhushani is based heavily on the Dikshithar krithi(Ramaa Saraswathi) and not a mere stringing of notes with the emphasis on the Shadsruthi rishaba .
T Viswa the Flute Maestro used to tell us to notice how many different ways the Ghandara has been pronounced in the chitaswara of Gajavadhana in Thodi and how each of them sounds distinct!!
Sorry got too long!!--
Last edited by Ramasubramanian M.K on 11 Oct 2009, 22:20, edited 1 time in total.
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cacm
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Ramasubramanian M.K
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Continuing the distinction between scales and ragas,my father once asked Ariyakudi WHY despite belonging to the Thyagaraja lineage with several of the vivadhi mela krithis in Manohari,Gambhiravani,Bindumalini etc he(Ariyakudi) does not sing any of those krithis or sing alapana of those ragas,his reply in Tamil'Iyerval evvalavu krithi pottirukkirar anda ragaangalil"(How many krithis has the saint composed in those ragas?)!! Continuing he said to get the swaroopam of a raga one has to study several krithis by well-known composers(not the "next-door-Mami's inspirational compositions"!!)in that raga before one can attempt an Alapana .He would followup and point out to Thodi where Thyagaraja has composed more than 30 krithis--each starting in different swaras--Sa/SAA(Arakimbave,Enduku Dayaradura,katatheramanasa,Thappi Pradiki,Dasarathi Rajuvedala-one of the Srirangam Pancharathnam). Likewise starting with Ga(Gathineevani,Dha(Emijesithe,Kotinadulu)jesinatella starting with Pa etc etc. The beauty of it was at short notice Ariyakudi can sing any of these songs impromptu--no notebooks,notations etc. It is not that the musicians of yore lacked rigor or dedication in learning new krithis.
VKV's comment about SSI's credo about rare ragas,krithis-- Ariyakudi endorsed the same view(or is it the other way around being Ariyakudi is the Senior!!) --in fact he used to joke that "Thyagaiyerval's kirthanams dan kirthanam matradellam POKKIRITHANAM!!!!
Back to the ragas. Take Kambodhi--derivative of harikambodhi-despite the Pa Da Sa prayogam so dominant in the raga theme,(with the 'tacit' omission of Ni after Da in the ascent-otherwise it would be indistinguishable from harikambodhi!!) one can see the elegance of the Ni in Pa Da Sa Da Ni Da prayogam in the swara prastharams instead of the straightforward Pa Da Sa Ni Da--purists may ask How can Ni follow Da before Sa for Kambodhi(when Pa Da Sa is the trademark of kambodhi--the Ni being omitted to distinguish from Harikambodhi? I do not have any scientific explanation for it but the prayogam looks neat and elegant to me within the bounds of lakshanam!! I trust my ears more than my brain when it comes to music!!!
Another point I have against detailed alapana of rare ragas--an example.
Take Jayamanohari(abhogi in the ascent and Sriranjani in the descent)-atleast two known krithis of Thygaraja--Nee Bhakthi bhagyasudha and Yagnyathulu--each different in terms of Rakthi--yet (my opinion!!) Alapana is repetitive because one has to constantly emphasis the Ma Da Sa Ni Da Ma--whereas a brisk swaraprastharam would be more elegant as GNB and Ramnad Krishnan used to do with Yagnyathulu Likewise jayanthasri --not suited for elaborate raga exposition because of having to constantly repear Sa Ni Da Ma Pa(whereas in Hindolam the panchamam being absent and the natural symmetry---- traversing the raga between the octaves is smooth and pleasant.
Unfortunately forumites may find this boring without a vocal demo illustrating the point--may be one of these days we can have a demo clip appended to the post!! The technology is beyond me!! But I am confident forumites get the drift of what I am trying to say. I do not want to run afoul of diehard rare raga fans(I was one of them once upon a time!!!)
perhaps if we can get together in Chennai or Cleveland we could "hash" these things out with demos!!!
VKV's comment about SSI's credo about rare ragas,krithis-- Ariyakudi endorsed the same view(or is it the other way around being Ariyakudi is the Senior!!) --in fact he used to joke that "Thyagaiyerval's kirthanams dan kirthanam matradellam POKKIRITHANAM!!!!
Back to the ragas. Take Kambodhi--derivative of harikambodhi-despite the Pa Da Sa prayogam so dominant in the raga theme,(with the 'tacit' omission of Ni after Da in the ascent-otherwise it would be indistinguishable from harikambodhi!!) one can see the elegance of the Ni in Pa Da Sa Da Ni Da prayogam in the swara prastharams instead of the straightforward Pa Da Sa Ni Da--purists may ask How can Ni follow Da before Sa for Kambodhi(when Pa Da Sa is the trademark of kambodhi--the Ni being omitted to distinguish from Harikambodhi? I do not have any scientific explanation for it but the prayogam looks neat and elegant to me within the bounds of lakshanam!! I trust my ears more than my brain when it comes to music!!!
Another point I have against detailed alapana of rare ragas--an example.
Take Jayamanohari(abhogi in the ascent and Sriranjani in the descent)-atleast two known krithis of Thygaraja--Nee Bhakthi bhagyasudha and Yagnyathulu--each different in terms of Rakthi--yet (my opinion!!) Alapana is repetitive because one has to constantly emphasis the Ma Da Sa Ni Da Ma--whereas a brisk swaraprastharam would be more elegant as GNB and Ramnad Krishnan used to do with Yagnyathulu Likewise jayanthasri --not suited for elaborate raga exposition because of having to constantly repear Sa Ni Da Ma Pa(whereas in Hindolam the panchamam being absent and the natural symmetry---- traversing the raga between the octaves is smooth and pleasant.
Unfortunately forumites may find this boring without a vocal demo illustrating the point--may be one of these days we can have a demo clip appended to the post!! The technology is beyond me!! But I am confident forumites get the drift of what I am trying to say. I do not want to run afoul of diehard rare raga fans(I was one of them once upon a time!!!)
perhaps if we can get together in Chennai or Cleveland we could "hash" these things out with demos!!!
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PUNARVASU
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Shri M.K.R. WROTE:
Back to the ragas. Take Kambodhi--derivative of harikambodhi-despite the Pa Da Sa prayogam so dominant in the raga theme,(with the 'tacit' omission of Ni after Da in the ascent-otherwise it would be indistinguishable from harikambodhi!!) one can see the elegance of the Ni in Pa Da Sa Da Ni Da prayogam in the swara prastharams instead of the straightforward Pa Da Sa Ni Da--purists may ask How can Ni follow Da before Sa for Kambodhi(when Pa Da Sa is the trademark of kambodhi--the Ni being omitted to distinguish from Harikambodhi? I do not have any scientific explanation for it but the prayogam looks neat and elegant to me within the bounds of lakshanam!! I trust my ears more than my brain when it comes to music!!!
This is exactly what our guru also used to say.Also in the prayOgam' pa da sa da ni da' as long as one does not go to the tAra shadjam after the 'da ni' it is correct(within the bounds of the grammar); Our guru always says that the ears are the best judges and lakshyam come before lakshaNam.
There is one more song in jayamanOhari by Saint ThyAgayya- 'shrI ramyachittAlankAra'
Back to the ragas. Take Kambodhi--derivative of harikambodhi-despite the Pa Da Sa prayogam so dominant in the raga theme,(with the 'tacit' omission of Ni after Da in the ascent-otherwise it would be indistinguishable from harikambodhi!!) one can see the elegance of the Ni in Pa Da Sa Da Ni Da prayogam in the swara prastharams instead of the straightforward Pa Da Sa Ni Da--purists may ask How can Ni follow Da before Sa for Kambodhi(when Pa Da Sa is the trademark of kambodhi--the Ni being omitted to distinguish from Harikambodhi? I do not have any scientific explanation for it but the prayogam looks neat and elegant to me within the bounds of lakshanam!! I trust my ears more than my brain when it comes to music!!!
This is exactly what our guru also used to say.Also in the prayOgam' pa da sa da ni da' as long as one does not go to the tAra shadjam after the 'da ni' it is correct(within the bounds of the grammar); Our guru always says that the ears are the best judges and lakshyam come before lakshaNam.
There is one more song in jayamanOhari by Saint ThyAgayya- 'shrI ramyachittAlankAra'
Last edited by PUNARVASU on 12 Oct 2009, 21:05, edited 1 time in total.
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cacm
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To back up MKR'S References to ARI'S Comments & to bring the level of discussion to a less lofty level- which I am good at!- a few year's back I got a call saying a person in Triplicane had a cassette with more than 40-50 kritis in THODI rendered by ARI; I rushed from T'Nagar to Triplicane only to find that the cassete was like GLUE-"Gondhu" in Tamil- & did not have the guts to try to play it with my borrowed recorder from from Cleveland VVS......As they say many a slip between the cup & lip!....VKV
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arunk
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Ascending *to* ni (as in da-ni) has nothing to do with pa-da-sa in the arohana. The absence of ni in the arohana of kambhoji and its presence in avarohana indicates that one cannot ascend *from* ni. This is standard for all "asymmetrical" arohana/avarohana.
But this is only a first-level rule so to say. Lakshya can place aesthetic rules on top which may either disallow what seems allowed by the arohana/avarohana (perhaps rarer - someone mentioned garudadhwani in my blog), or allow things which seem disallowed (much more common).
Arun
But this is only a first-level rule so to say. Lakshya can place aesthetic rules on top which may either disallow what seems allowed by the arohana/avarohana (perhaps rarer - someone mentioned garudadhwani in my blog), or allow things which seem disallowed (much more common).
Arun
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vasanthakokilam
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>as long as one does not go to the tAra shadjam after the 'da ni' it is correct
Arun, I think Punarvasu also conveys the same rule as you do.. right?
In the asymmetrical case, if such first level rules are violated, it has to be true exceptions and rare, other wise the rules lose the meaning. Is that in general true that both types of exceptions are usually rare?
Second, with symmetrical Aro/Ava ragas like Shankarabaranam and Kalyani allow for jumps by leaving out swaras. What are the rules for disallowed sequences in such ragas? One possibility is, if you jump you have to change direction and then at least go to the next swara in the new direction. But there are obvious exceptions to that rule as well.
Arun, I think Punarvasu also conveys the same rule as you do.. right?
In the asymmetrical case, if such first level rules are violated, it has to be true exceptions and rare, other wise the rules lose the meaning. Is that in general true that both types of exceptions are usually rare?
Second, with symmetrical Aro/Ava ragas like Shankarabaranam and Kalyani allow for jumps by leaving out swaras. What are the rules for disallowed sequences in such ragas? One possibility is, if you jump you have to change direction and then at least go to the next swara in the new direction. But there are obvious exceptions to that rule as well.
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arunk
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Yes punarvasu said the same thing. I wanted to convey that this wasn't necessarily unique or enigmatic about kAmbhOji.
As far as the jumps, I do not know if there any disallowed per say - but yes IMO consecutive jumps are generally very rare and if done quickly dissolve the raga's melodic identity. So once you jump, you either come back down (to the immediate lower swara as per the raga's structure) or go further in the same direction i.e. to the next immediate swara as per raga's structure. Between the two, I would guess that the first kind has a higher probability.
Arun
As far as the jumps, I do not know if there any disallowed per say - but yes IMO consecutive jumps are generally very rare and if done quickly dissolve the raga's melodic identity. So once you jump, you either come back down (to the immediate lower swara as per the raga's structure) or go further in the same direction i.e. to the next immediate swara as per raga's structure. Between the two, I would guess that the first kind has a higher probability.
Arun
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Ramasubramanian M.K
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I think the omission of swaras etc is more of an artiste's aesthetic improvisation(Lakshyam) than rigid gramar rules. If done properly it gets accepted by the listeners and then gets "codified".
Another example of how Lakshyam can push the frontiers is the case of Khamas. Both the Thyagaraja Krithis--Seethapathe and Sujanajeevana do not have the Kakali Nishadam-Even Dikshitar's Santhanagopalam or Sarasadalanayana (atleast in the versions I have heard Vidwans sing) do not have the Kakali Nishadam. Vasudevachariar--a fourth generation disciple of Thyagaraja- ( Manambuchavadi-Patnam-Poochi-Vasudevachar) has used kakali Nishadam in Brocheva.Purists may say how can Khamas a derivative of Harikambodhi(which has only Kaishiki Nishadam) take Kakali Nishadam--even if it is an alpa prayogam(rare or occasional).The answer is the test of time and if the aesthetics was good then the exception may be legitimised.
Likewise the use of alpa dhaivatam in Sri Ragam-- Thygaraja in his Sriraga krithis(Entharo,Namakusuma?) has eschewed the use of the Dhaivatam(because I believe grammar refers to it as Alpa Dhaivatam--to be used occasionally and sparingly) Is Entharo poorer by this "omission"--Mind you the use is not disallowed but perhaps Thyagaraja in his strict adherence to grammar opted not to use it. But both Dikshitar(Kamalambikam--the navavarna krithi as well as Srivaralakshmi) and Syama Sastry(Vanajasana) have opted to use the Dhaivatam albeit sparingly as the grammar allowed. Patnam in his navaragamalika varnam has used the alpa Dhaivatam. So has Ariyakudi in his Thiruppavai in Sriragam( mayanai mannum). All these songs have retained their appeal over the years.
Over the years I have come to the conclusion--experimentation and innovation-pushing the boundaries have been happening ever since Music came into public domain and it is not a monopoly of the emerging stars of today.The "market place" nee the audience accepts it or rejects it if it contravenes their sense of aesthetics.
A smaller example in recent years-take marugelara in Jayanthasri in the Saranam Anni Nee Vanusu--the common practice of most Vidwans/Vidushis is to start the charanam in Pa,Pa,Pa. But Lalgudi sir changed it and starts with Ni,Ni,Ni--now purists might say afterall the Panchamam is the distinguishing characteristic of the raga(to distinguish it from Hindolam) and that's why it is appropriate that the charanam start with Pa Pa Pa. To me starting with Ni sounds different and in my opinion is elegant.I asked Lalgudi Sir about it--he said it is just a slight departure and downplayed any motivation of innovation.TRS also agreed that this is no big deal!.
Another example of how Lakshyam can push the frontiers is the case of Khamas. Both the Thyagaraja Krithis--Seethapathe and Sujanajeevana do not have the Kakali Nishadam-Even Dikshitar's Santhanagopalam or Sarasadalanayana (atleast in the versions I have heard Vidwans sing) do not have the Kakali Nishadam. Vasudevachariar--a fourth generation disciple of Thyagaraja- ( Manambuchavadi-Patnam-Poochi-Vasudevachar) has used kakali Nishadam in Brocheva.Purists may say how can Khamas a derivative of Harikambodhi(which has only Kaishiki Nishadam) take Kakali Nishadam--even if it is an alpa prayogam(rare or occasional).The answer is the test of time and if the aesthetics was good then the exception may be legitimised.
Likewise the use of alpa dhaivatam in Sri Ragam-- Thygaraja in his Sriraga krithis(Entharo,Namakusuma?) has eschewed the use of the Dhaivatam(because I believe grammar refers to it as Alpa Dhaivatam--to be used occasionally and sparingly) Is Entharo poorer by this "omission"--Mind you the use is not disallowed but perhaps Thyagaraja in his strict adherence to grammar opted not to use it. But both Dikshitar(Kamalambikam--the navavarna krithi as well as Srivaralakshmi) and Syama Sastry(Vanajasana) have opted to use the Dhaivatam albeit sparingly as the grammar allowed. Patnam in his navaragamalika varnam has used the alpa Dhaivatam. So has Ariyakudi in his Thiruppavai in Sriragam( mayanai mannum). All these songs have retained their appeal over the years.
Over the years I have come to the conclusion--experimentation and innovation-pushing the boundaries have been happening ever since Music came into public domain and it is not a monopoly of the emerging stars of today.The "market place" nee the audience accepts it or rejects it if it contravenes their sense of aesthetics.
A smaller example in recent years-take marugelara in Jayanthasri in the Saranam Anni Nee Vanusu--the common practice of most Vidwans/Vidushis is to start the charanam in Pa,Pa,Pa. But Lalgudi sir changed it and starts with Ni,Ni,Ni--now purists might say afterall the Panchamam is the distinguishing characteristic of the raga(to distinguish it from Hindolam) and that's why it is appropriate that the charanam start with Pa Pa Pa. To me starting with Ni sounds different and in my opinion is elegant.I asked Lalgudi Sir about it--he said it is just a slight departure and downplayed any motivation of innovation.TRS also agreed that this is no big deal!.