Sindhu Kanada

Rāga related discussions
Ranganayaki
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#51 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by Ranganayaki »

The Lost Melodies wrote: 06 May 2021, 18:31 It is my opinion that our thoughts or opinions are not be transposed on the creativity of a composer. I also apply this to present-day musicians.
I agree heartily.
This is highly subjective and what she had expressed is strictly to be taken as her opinion.
Who is “she?” Me, in response to Shankarank’s #45? Just want to be sure. 🙂

shankarank
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#52 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by shankarank »

The Lost Melodies wrote: 07 May 2021, 20:46 When you take the ragas taking suddha gandara and suddha rishaba, the phrases don't differ much (I am talking about melakartas and not ragangas. Second, I am considering only these two svaras). In such a case, every other raga must evoke the same rasa. Is that happening?
I find there are only two other kritis by SrI tyAgarAja, in this zone gAnamUrti and vanaspati:

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html

This one has three negative references - which would fall under bayAnaka if not bibhatsa. Sage durvAsa could create bibhatsa if he curses as well as bayanaka before he does. Also SrI tyAgarAja is asking whether it is funny? A sort of negative reference. While rAvaNa is mentioned in many other kritis, his harsh word comes for a reference here as well.

That leaves gAnamurti kriti where I am not able to see anything specific apart from narakAntaka which is vIra rasa. Also the start is handled directly with Suddha gandhAra with a jAru and a svarakshara and a jAru again suddha rishabha. This is according to practice as I have heard it , not any notations.

Now your question is whether that evokes the bibhatsa rasa. Nothing evokes by itself unless it is held in culture as such. We are only considering how SrI tyAgarAja might have viewed it. When two versions are available for a given kriti, such questions arise naturally.

As regards Sindhu kannada there is a general aversion to vivadis among the Sishya parampara - as you know even vArALi was not taught directly. Do we know how this came about it? May be one Sishya was taught with kEsari and another with Sindhu kannada because the latter struggled?

The Lost Melodies wrote: 07 May 2021, 20:46 Can you prove Tyagaraja Svamigal has used jaru in Vagadisvari to approach the vivadhi svara shatsruti rishabha?
I will not take manuscripts as final evidence. It is only one of the evidences. So I am not into proving anything, as that is not how I approach this issue. Also this alleged morphing of Suddha daivata to catuSRuti is too prevalent across quite a few rAgAs across the two schools.

As regards whether our music has changed, I don't look at it from rAgA lakshana perspective at all as I don't accept that that is the only thing that defines the music. And the number of instances where changes are alleged are just too small, relatively.

After trinity there has not been any further movement on composition style simply because there was no patronage and a rich environment for things to develop. Only the performing styles evolved embellishing the structure of kritis. And all post trinity composers have followed SrI tyAgarAja, that too only cosmetically. Sri dikshitar has no followers even in structural terms as that is very special and difficult. SrI SyAma Sastri may be his son SrI SubbarAyA Sastri , else no one can compose in that style.

So our music has not changed!

RSR
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#53 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by RSR »

p-52
-----
Patronage might have played a part in the evolution of CM before and after the Trinity. but It is a sacrilege to connect the creative mission of ALL the pre-trinity composers and the Trinity with any patronage.

Thyagaraja kruthis are remembered by majority of CM rasikas, mainly through the renderings of vocalists' recorded music and the oral tradition.

The structure and theme of CM compositions began to change from second generation disciples of Thyagaraja Swami. ...more of varNams, padams, jaavaLis, tillaanaa,
The possibilities have been exhausted.

Preserving the Best in the tradition is now more important than any inane innovation.
------
The kruthi by Thyagaraja in Vanaspathi ragam cited is rich in feeling.
" ennudaiya praarthanaiyellaam, unakku, keliyaaka irukkaa? dhroupathi, vibeeshanan, prahalaadhan elloraiyum kaappatrinaaye! en meethu mattum aen karuNai illI? " ( are my prayers just funny to you?) --(liberal translation. thamizh) Very difficult to assign any 'rasam' to Thyagaraja swami's kruthis. There is just one rasam in all the Trinity's compositions.....Devotion . Bhavams may differ.
Let us not try to force the theme into Literary rules.
VaraaLi is a typical example how even a vivadi scale can be very moving ( an exception like Nattai perhaps). ' Kanakana' is a gem of a composition in music as well as feeling. ( imagine a mother adorning and adoring her child --- a very common and universal occurrence in every family's life... poor or rich, urban or rural)
-----
It may even be asserted that most of Thyagaraja kruthis are in non-vivadi scales.
Secondly, most are in M1 group.
Thirdly, most of the popular and pleasing compositions of Thyagaraja are in scales (10) and their janyams ( Todi, Karaharapriya, Harikambodhi, MayamaLava Gowla, PanthuvaraaLi, SubapanthuvaraaLi, NataBairavi, Kalyaani, Sankaraabaranam and Gamanasrama) which CM shares with the HM thats.
We can prepare a chart of all the ragas used by Thyagaraja and note the parent scale of all the janya ragams.
It will confirm the conjecture.
Can so many renowned musicians be wrong? Can we just ignore the vocal tradition?

With all that, are there not hundreds of kruthis of the Trinity, which our musicians even of the Golden Era have not rendered? That may be the only avenue for younger musicians to explore and contribute..

SrinathK
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#54 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by SrinathK »

@shankarank Denial is not an alternative form of evidence. :lol:

Rasas are hugely subject to the interpretation of the musician and also the rasika. Yes the composer may have sung it in a particular mood on a given day, but various aspects of presentation can change the flavour of a rendering.

The Lost Melodies
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#55 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by The Lost Melodies »

I find there are only two other kritis by SrI tyAgarAja, in this zone gAnamUrti and vanaspati:
There are many others - sri gananatham, e mandune, kalasavartijam, aparadhamula, and adukaradani.
I will not take manuscripts as final evidence. It is only one of the evidences. So I am not into proving anything,
The question was about gamaka and the question arose as you said the vivadhi svara in Vagadisvari is used with a jaru. This does not require a mention of manuscripts. I never mentioned anywhere that manuscripts are to be used to determine a gamakam.
I always consider oral and textual versions alike. For me, they are not separate entities; they are two sides of a coin. My point is both the textual and oral versions cannot give a clue about the gamaka used by a composer, unless we have his voice recorded.
As regards whether our music has changed, I don't look at it from rAgA lakshana perspective at all as I don't accept that that is the only thing that defines the music. And the number of instances where changes are alleged are just too small, relatively.
Recently @Vakulabharana contacted me and asked me to clarify few queries regarding the 'changes', raised in this forum. I hope those were conveyed here.
So our music has not changed!
It is your choice to say this world is not beautiful by closing your eyes.
And all post trinity composers have followed SrI tyAgarAja, that too only cosmetically. Sri dikshitar has no followers even in structural terms as that is very special and difficult. SrI SyAma Sastri may be his son SrI SubbarAyA Sastri , else no one can compose in that style.
You are completely unaware of the musical compositions of post Trinity composers. Almost, every one of their disciples had an individual style, yet retaining the style followed by their Guru. This is true for the disciples of Muthuswamy Diksitar also. You can read my articles to understand the same wherein I have explained with objective evidence.

RSR
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#56 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by RSR »

may be useful.
https://guruguha.org/true-identity-raga ... nna-talli/

<quote>
And what was the need to deprive the composition of its original tune? The motive is perhaps not too complicated. The raga sported D1 and N1, a vivadi combination. In very many schools, especially at that time it was considered ‘traditional’ not to render vivadhi combinations as it was thought of as a ‘dosha’ so much so in private it was believed that the dosha brought misfortune. Musicians with such a belief system eschewed rendering such ragas/compositions which sported vivadhi combinations. Its quite likely that instead of avoiding rendering ‘nannu kanna talli’ with D1N1, one/ some or many considered that the composition being so beautiful should be brought to ‘mainstream’ by flipping its raga, by replacing the D1N1 combo with D2N2 and thus working around the problem!
</quote>

shankarank
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#57 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by shankarank »

The concept of original tune itself is flawed. We have one disciple lineage that has written manuscripts. It could be an act of obfuscation with respect to some such small time ragas - where some have now become popular as well. In written form they have classified these into a vivAdi melakarta in the same cakra or something difficult to sing so anybody stealing the manuscript cannot just learn without gurumukham. While in oral tradition, they will teach the pleasant version.

And they have chosen a poison pill of vivAdi so nobody would get near it using just the written record. If some did they had a wrong unpleasant version.

There are other vivadi kritis that exist without such a modification - which sound fine or appropriate to the theme. Something does not add up here.

Vakulabharana
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#58 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by Vakulabharana »

Recently @Vakulabharana contacted me and asked me to clarify few queries regarding the 'changes', raised in this forum. I hope those were conveyed here.
Very much. I have explained the need to archive the changes and your intention to start The Lost Melodies.

I am posting the links for easy reference.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34741&p=368711#p368711
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34741&p=368682#p368682

I feel people like @shankarank find happiness by repeating the queries periodically :D
When you get this query on this topic, refer to the links given above.

The Lost Melodies
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#59 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by The Lost Melodies »

Who is “she?” Me, in response to Shankarank’s #45? Just want to be sure. 🙂
Sorry for the delayed response.

I was referring to the lecture given by Smt Vishaka Hari. I am not comfortable categorizing Tataka vadham under bIbatsa rasa.

The Lost Melodies
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#60 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by The Lost Melodies »

Who is “she?” Me, in response to Shankarank’s #45? Just want to be sure. 🙂
Sorry for the delayed response.

I was referring to the lecture given by Smt Vishaka Hari. I was not comfortable categorizing Tataka vadham under bIbatsa rasa.

bhakthim dehi
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#61 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by bhakthim dehi »

In written form they have classified these into a vivAdi melakarta in the same cakra or something difficult to sing so anybody stealing the manuscript cannot just learn without gurumukham. While in oral tradition, they will teach the pleasant version.
And they have chosen a poison pill of vivAdi so nobody would get near it using just the written record. If some did they had a wrong unpleasant version.
Great discovery :lol: :lol:

shankarank
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#62 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by shankarank »

If you can speculate on the basis of a written manuscript and come to a certain conclusion, where no record any lineage singing this existed even as early as when concert recording started ( what like 1950s?) , then I can do the same with a different conclusion! That (the recording era) was only some 40 years into actual concert performances of compositions over all. So we cannot start the clock from SrI tyAgarAja's time - can we?!

RSR
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#63 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by RSR »

P-62
Though slightly off-topic, Manambuchavadi Venkata Subbiah , a much younger cousin of Thyagaraja Swami and a direct disciple was the guru for famous composers like Patnam Subramanya Iyer, Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan and Saraba Sastry.
Mysore Vasudevachar, HMB , Poochi Seinivasa Iengar were disciples of Patnam Subramanya Iyer. While, Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan was guru for four Sangitha Kalanidhis of next generation. ( according to SriramV).
ARI, MVI, MUSIRI ,MMI belong to the disciple line of Manambuchavadi . Their oral tradition is equally authentic and may be the better tradition. Poochi is said to have learned from Patnam but imbibed a lot from MV Sivan too.
From whom did Chembai Swami learn his Thyagaraja kruthis? In a concert in Bombay 1966, he has rendered mostly well-known Thyagaraja kruthis only. The link is given in musicians section.

viewtopic.php?p=371301#p371301

Chembai swami must have been 70 years young in the above concert at Bombay with 60 years of concert performance by him.


Except Mysore Sadasiva Rao, the WALAJAPET bagavatar line does not seem to have many disciples.
This is a plea for oral tradition. -echoing @shankarank

RSR
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#64 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by RSR »

( in continuation of p- )
-----
Located sriramv article on Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan.
https://sriramv.wordpress.com/2019/01/1 ... an-a-life/

some excerpts
-------------
<quote>
A performer of Sivan’s calibre naturally attracted several disciples. These did not find it easy to be students in residence, for Ramaswami saw to it that they were always gainfully employed in non-musical ways. But benefit they did. At least four became well-known names.

Vasudevanallur Subbiah Bhagavatar was a pallavi expert and he wrote a detailed biography of Sivan. This was published later by Bhagavatar’s son, the scholarly vainika VS Gomathisankara Iyer in two volumes titled Isai Ulagil Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan.

A second disciple was Pazhamarneri Swaminatha Iyer, an expert in the ashtapadi and padams. He was a voco-violinist, for he played the violin even as he sang. He received the Sangita Kalanidhi from the Music Academy in 1931.

TS Sabhesa Iyer was a third student who became a performer known for his niraval skills. He later turned pedagogue, teaching at the Annamalai University. It was Sabhesa Iyer who made Sivan’s Melaragamalika famous and also published it. He received the Sangita Kalanidhi from the Music Academy in 1934.

A fourth disciple was the famed singer and Harikatha exponent Palakkad Anantharama Bhagavatar.

It is interesting to note that the Sabhesa Iyer line is among the most represented in the Sangita Kalanidhi list –
Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavatar,
Musiri Subramania Iyer,
Madurai Mani Iyer,
Mani Krishnaswami,
TK Govinda Rao,
TN Seshagopalan and
the Bombay Sisters,
are all from this lineage.
</quote>
----------
may be of interest to @shankarank

shankarank
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#65 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by shankarank »

The Lost Melodies wrote: 05 May 2021, 17:50 Here is a Kesari version of the kriti 'nannu kanna thalli'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VuT-g7zFLs
Another point about this rendition, the use of "as usual gamaka" from haribkambOdi in the pURvAnga and then use a vivadi note in the lower register. Even in rAgAs like rishabapriya or in rAgAs like kuntaLam (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv7v493wubg) the gamakas of kalyANi don't go across.

I see musicians have "phrase" control :D . I somehow believe the so called "phrases" stand on the edifice of samvAdi concept!

Q: Did Sandeep commit a faux paus claiming this to be a janya of kAntAmaNI?

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