Ragas without shadjam?

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 27 Aug 2010, 01:38

Is a raga that does not include the shadjam possible? i.e. with just the notes ri-ga-ma-pa-dha-ni and their combinations.
Or is this not a valid structure for a raga?

(We do have a raga like chittaranjani that excludes the upper shadjam)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Aug 2010, 02:09

Not valid per rules/tradition (I think - could be wrong) but I wonder if it "experimentally" maybe possible - the sadjam is always implied since that is needed to know the sthanams of others and it may be there via tampura but not sung/played as part of melody.

You may have a hard time avoiding the perception of other ragas (i.e. sruthi-bedham equivalents) since you can never can establish the tonal base for your raga - but you may be able to avoid making it sound too much that like them depending on gamakas. And maybe presence of tampura may add a tonal base which isnt part of melody but which rules out these other sruthi-bedham equivalents.

Intriguing...

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Aug 2010, 20:57

r-t, this is a fairly deep topic. More than whether a particular song ever sounds Shadja or not ( which I think is theoretically possible, we can probably coax Kalyani to give us a janyam with such properties), the critical part is what Aadhara Shadja does the audience catch on to in such songs. We do have that capability to catch on to a Sa even when not sounded.. Have someone sing a familar phrases of a raga which does not involve shadjam.

Arun, I remember a discussion before about this. What are the clues in the song to discern the shadjam of a piece in the absence of sounding a shadjam and a background tampura or any instrument that is tuned to the Shadjam.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Aug 2010, 21:29

I dont know how tonic resolution works - a lot of it is cultural. For as Uday hints, we carnatic rasikas want to see a "raga" ni every tune which generally implies one tonic (sruthi bedham is still advanced for us), and in music with multitple tonal centers, key shifts, we struggle.

But my "theory" is this. Suppose the "sa/pa varja" flavor of tODi (nrgmdn) was originally codified as a separate raga (it is of course too late now

), but with gamakas of todi (except no ni gamaka with sa and no ma/da gamaka with pa). You have the ga in particular that can take many flavors spanning the ri-ma range. You also have ni gamaka with "da".

Now, even if your alapana focus/revolves around ni, it may not be mistaken as suddha-dhaynasi (ni as graha in this todi ni ri ga ma da ni => suddha-dhanyasi) because a suddha-dhanyasmi ma (the ga becomes ma) may not take gamakas that span the entire ga-pa range. But some rasikas may still construe as "just a bad suddha-dhanyasi"

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Aug 2010, 21:39

I am sure there are examples in HM which one of the HM expert can point out.
There is no theoretical reason for such a raga not to exist; though the shadjam is implied as part of the swarasthana in prayOgam it can be missing just as in shruti bhedam as Arun points ou,
Very interesting.. Worth experimenting..

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Aug 2010, 21:43

I also thought that HM may already have such a thing. Maybe SR (Sangeet Rasik) can clarify.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Aug 2010, 21:49

Thanks Arun. ( On your initial disclaimer, there is really no need. Constraints are what define genres and architectures. Useful stuff comes out of such constraints and not in spite of it.. anyway just an editorial comment )

Yours is a great example. I think people may construe it as bad suddha-dhanyasi only if the artist provides the clues that Ni is the 'shadjam'. I think one such thing is a long karvai on that swara. What other clues exist for the audience to infer the shadjam

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 27 Aug 2010, 22:01

Is it not possible to use the panchamam (sa-pa-sa) as the anchor note in the absence of shadjam to set the sruti?
I do admit the sa provides the resting place - I tried singing Malahari geetam without touching the shadjam, and it's a quite a challenge!
I wonder if it's easier on an instrument. VK - can you try this on the flute?

Perhaps we can raise this with the scholars like SRJ. TRS, Seetha Rajan.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 27 Aug 2010, 22:03

What about ragas played in madhyama shruti?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Aug 2010, 22:07

If one does e.g. grn... (=>mgs) rgrn... (=>gmgs) dmgn... (pmgs) and if ni is done as a slide down from ri like gs in suddha-dhanyasi (but not perhaps line ri-ni in sa/pa varja todi) it may throw some people off. But I have no idea - this is just blind hypothesis.

My guess is that in general to us (cm minds), it will have "no tonal resolution" - very much like when you hear pa-sa varja of tODi (our cm-trained mind gets "mental relief" only when sa/pa is eventually included

- just like we get hunger relief when sAppADu is given

)

Now on the other hand if ALL notes were flat and you focus on ni a lot, it may have a much higher chance of people zeroing on the ni (or ma maybe). I am hypothesizing that the gamakas may help avoid that.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Aug 2010, 22:08

bilahari - If I am not mistaken in madhyama sruthi you are simply raising the pitch. There is still a sa very much in your melody. It just happens to have a reference point to the ma of the tampura.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Aug 2010, 22:29

A quick attempt, clued in by r-t : http://www.esnips.com/doc/0dfc891b-f8c6 ... 5e6c8/Nosa

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Aug 2010, 23:25

I am sensing a "sa" in the tune itself (i.e. I sense "a sadjam" and I hear the flue play it) and so I am guessing I must have sensed the sruthi-bedham equivalent

Arun

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 27 Aug 2010, 23:35

vasanthakokilam wrote:A quick attempt, clued in by r-t : http://www.esnips.com/doc/0dfc891b-f8c6 ... 5e6c8/Nosa

Good job! Horrible music

I hear mohanam.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Aug 2010, 00:11

Thanks Suresh..

I had to step out for a meeting at the top of the hour. Came back and listened to it myself.. That lack of resolution to Sa is quite unsettling..

So, Arun, if you sensed Sa in the playing itself, what raga did it sound like then? ( Hope I did not inadvertently play the real Sa anywhere.. I tried to refrain from that but I was in a hurry )

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Aug 2010, 00:18

Initially for a first few seconds it was mohanam but then a note was hit after that it was sivaranjani. Now, "I tried to forget it and listen" but my "mind is polluted" as it seems sivaranjani all the way

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Aug 2010, 00:23

Interesting... I just played this to another person ( whose raga identification method is through identifying swaras and then the raga). She mentioned the same two ragas, in pretty much the same fashion you did.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Aug 2010, 00:32

What is equally interesting is that you found the piece to have no satisfactory tonal resolution while I find it adequately resolved (the first time itself when I didn't know, and now even more satisfactorily). So the tonal resolution isn't necessarily an unambiguous inherent property of this tune - and it seems malleable based on the frame of reference.

But what is the "original" raga anyway? (you can email me if you dont want to reveal yet so that others can get a shot at it - since that will influence their minds as we are finding

)

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Aug 2010, 05:18

This time the same theme ( with the same imperfections ) but with sruthi: http://www.esnips.com/doc/070c5649-fa87 ... withsruthi

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Aug 2010, 06:07

The latest has just 4 distinct swaras which if I map will fall as
R2 G3 P D2 which fits mohanam with deleted shadjam. But somehow I am not getting any feel of mohanam in the tune

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Aug 2010, 06:19

I got my answer! I was distinctly getting the madhyamavati feel. If I latch on to my previous R2 as shadjam then I get S R2 M1 P which fits madhyamavati with niShadam deleted

So even if you leave out the shadjam the mind fills in an existing note for it. Of course that is the basis of shruti bhedam!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Aug 2010, 08:32

cml - the way I see it thatt would basically be the "opposite" of sruthi bedham

- I mean if I leave sa and play a scale with remaing notes to make it seem like another raga, if you fill in the missing sa, you wouldnt get the other raga

Arun

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 28 Aug 2010, 08:54

Indian Music is based on the creation of rasa anubhava based on the relationship of other notes to the basic note i.e., Adhara shadja. I wonder whether the shastras would admit any melody without adhara shadja under the classification of Indian Music.

There are nishadantya ragas like Kuranji ( I think) where Nishada pays the part of resting note.

Is it possible that the Yazh Murippunn could have been a punn without Sa and that was why the Yazh could not play it ?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Aug 2010, 23:50

ahem... Pitchappa surreptitiously recorded from outside when he was singing in the shower. He seems to get a MMI inspiration at the end there

Does it seem like

A. Raga that is missing something" (i.e besides sruthi-shuddham of course

) and if so which raga
B. Some other raga - if so which raga.

http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/atonic.mp3

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Aug 2010, 00:32

Thanks Pitchappa!
Missed you for a long time

You must be hungry; as I am getting a feel for Ahiri (?)
But I can't place it for sure..
Do instruct Arun as to give us a clue as to what you have in your mind
..or at least your shruti...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Aug 2010, 00:45

On the first couple of listens, I did not feel a raga. I then decided to bring about my own sa . Then I felt it is in the purvikalyani-pantuvarali complex, with occasional glimpses of dhenuka.

Good job, Pitchappa.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 29 Aug 2010, 00:53

For 2/3rd of the way it sounded mostly like Pantuvarali; then it took a nosedive, and I had no clue what raga was being sung.

Who is Pitchappa?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Aug 2010, 01:24

Mr Hyde of Dr Jekyll

hariniraghavan · Post by **hariniraghavan** » 29 Aug 2010, 11:48

[quote="Shivadasan"]
There are nishadantya ragas like Kuranji ( I think) where Nishada pays the part of resting note.

Even in nishadantya ragas like kurinji or punnagavarali or a dhaivatantya raga like janjhuti, even though the resting note is nishada or dhaivata, their position is fixed based on the adhara shadja only.
The possibility of having panchama as adhara as somebody had suggested may not be possible because there are too many panchama varjya ragas but not a singla shadja varjya raga yet.
Harini.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Aug 2010, 20:44

Sorry for delay - had a commitment entire day yesterday after I posted it.

Pitchappa is disappointed

I wanted to tell him that this could have been avoided with better singing - but I didn't want to incur his wrath - and not to also incur yet another session hearing him sing trying to convince me.

Anyway, here are three versions which takes the above tune and adds three different tampura sruthis t o it (not arbitrary choices though). One of them is the truth (Pitcappa was listening to the tampura via headphones while he recorded the tune). Which one is it? (which should give clue as to the original raga). The choices mentioned are somewhat understandable in some regard but none of them are what was attempted.

http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/atonic_with_tampura.mp3
http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/atonic_with_tampura1.mp3
http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/atonic_with_tampura2.mp3

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Aug 2010, 22:15

Unable to play your files on the Windows player.
The file size is too small!
Help out ...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Aug 2010, 22:25

oops - made a mistake in uploading as well as URL. Pl. try again

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Aug 2010, 22:53

OK works now!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Aug 2010, 23:06

The middle one ( tanpura1 ) has some resemblance to saveri ( the first one as well, to some extent )
The last one ( tampura2 ) gives me the vibe of a pratimadyama raga.

In all three, the big descent (towards the end of the piece) sounded different from the rest of the alapana.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Aug 2010, 23:19

I am still stuck at Ahiri though you have rejected it.
it certainly is a vivadi mela janakam.
Pratimadhyamam possibly... Probably both sa pa missing...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Aug 2010, 23:26

Oh boy |( . Now, I did realize this was hard - because now EVEN I am having a harder time believing the "right one" makes sense - LOL!!! Also remember the experiment is as good as how the capable the experimenter is - and let us say, we might as well have a big problem there

Ok the "correct" one is the very first one i.e. http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/atonic_with_tampura.mp3 Let us see if it helps.

Also, it is a mela raga - it is not vivadi. I will not reveal M1 vs. M2 - atleast not in this round.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Aug 2010, 23:37

Alright, I will give it a try. I know what you are saying about capabilities, and include my limitations in identifying ragas. My swara identification skills are quite primitive, I go by the feel of it. Since you are singing an alapana with gamaka etc. I assume that in this case it is possible to get at the raga by the feel of it rather than through swaras.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Aug 2010, 23:42

Rasikapriya without the shadjam?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Aug 2010, 23:45

no cml. I said it is not vivadi.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Aug 2010, 23:49

Oh and also what would be point of this experiment on lesser known ragas where people may have trouble even if sa is there;-)

vk

Since you are singing an alapana with gamaka etc. I assume that in this case it is possible to get at the raga by the feel of it rather than through swaras.

That was the intent but in this case that bus left the building long ago

!!! If people cannot identify with the "parent" raga, the experiment is sort of a failure - and this should be for "most people". But with better hands at the wheel (instead of Pitchappa) maybe.

And also if it is an entirely new raga (i.e. doesnt resemble any known) then maybe it isnt a total wash - but it also has to be melodically favorable - we may have a problem there too.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Aug 2010, 00:20

cArukEshi ?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 30 Aug 2010, 00:30

I feel like saying
cakkani rAja mArgamu lunDaga sandula dUranela

a feel of saveri somewhat but not totally

May be kIravAni should be the right one.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 30 Aug 2010, 00:33

maybe I don't know the parent raga itself!
This one however is not melodious which is why I was looknig for a vivadi mela...

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 30 Aug 2010, 00:43

Kiravani.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 30 Aug 2010, 05:47

Yay! SR saves the day for Pitchappa.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 30 Aug 2010, 05:50

Here was the first take with the "resolution at the very end" (but that would be significant if you are zoned in on the right Sadjam from the beginning - which I see has been hard even now) - http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/atonic_takeone.mp3

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Aug 2010, 06:12

I do sense kiravani at the end in the above clip. And if I listen to the beginning part immediately after the end, I think I sense kiravani in the beginning as well.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 30 Aug 2010, 07:14

OK! I hear a weird Kiravani with the madhyamam missing! At the end the shadjam shoots out!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 30 Aug 2010, 07:29

cml - madhyamam is (should be) there. Only sa was taken out. PItchappa tried to avoid "ni" hitting sa in its gamaka when sliding from dha - also holds a steady N3. Also when skipping sa - did ni-ri (and ri-ni) as a slide to avoid it seeming like a big discrete jump (and thus make it too obvious as to whether the swara skip is). Also did somehing similar for ni-ga-ri ni-ri-ni.

BTW, I know you peope did the correct thing per experiment in the earlier email with 3 versions with 3 sruthis - i.e. just see which raga chAyal if any comes out without resorting to math etc. but in those 2 could have been ruled out if you guys kept in mind that experiment should be without Shadjam

! Why?

The secomd link (atonic_with_tampura1) had tampura set to ri's sruthi. The tune starts with a steady ri - i.e. starts with a note which is in sync with Sadja and could have been elimiated just based on that.

The third link (atonic_with_tamputa2) had tampura set to pa's sruthi. Again the tune does rest on pa in the middle (as well at the very end i.e. karvai at pa is how it ends) and thus you would have the tune containing a long steady note in sync with tampura - which again should have been eliminated since the tune isnt supposed to have sa.

But in any case, it may not have helped you arrive at the answer since most of you had trouble even after I told you which one was right.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 30 Aug 2010, 08:00

I don't see madhyamam but a slight touch of pratimadhyamam but simhendramadhyamam is no where in sight. You are straying into tara shadjam as you are reaching into N3 which is complicating the identification..