Desiya ragas LecDem by Dr. Sriram

[Enna_Solven]

Please refer to this post:
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15545

Dr. Sriram mentioned that Desiya ragas provides wonderful opportunity for sva-manodharma compared to classical carnatic ragas. In fact, he said, there is very little in the raga alapana of a CM ragam. One has learnt many krithis and phrases come automatically.

Second point, one's voice must be flexible and one needs to be very precise as compared to classical CM ragas. One cannot hide behind a gamakam.

Third, he said the opening phrase itself establishes the ragam. i thought this should be the case, as stressed by many CM stalwarts, for any ragam.

Please enlighten.

[mahavishnu]

E_S: Thanks for starting this thread.
I was left with more questions about what a "desiya" ragam is at the end of his presentation than before watching the show.

The biggest bone of contention was Sriram Parasuram's description that there is no real Hindustani and Karnataka Kapi. He claims that the style of delivery is where the difference comes from. Now, contrast this with the position of Prince Rama Varma in this video, where he describes the difference between the "suma sAyakA" version and "vihAra mAnasa rAmE" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KLfzWjhGXE

[raghukumar]

I'm sorry but the recording has been removed due to copyright issues.

[vasanthakokilam]

What was Sriram Parasuram's definition of 'desiya' raga at the initial stages of his presentation? I was under the impression that Desiya ragas are ragas that have countryside or folkish origins as opposed the classical ragas that have very well defined and strict lakshaya and lakshaNa. But then TMK, in his Hindu articles, seemed to imply desiya ragas refer to classical ragas. It looks like Sriram's reference seems to be the 'non-classical' one..

[Enna_Solven]

Yes, he said it was country-side. Supposed to be 'lighter' ragams by many musicians, but he didn't want to go into that.

[mahavishnu]

E_S: But there was more to his definition than that...He said that while the origin of "desiya" might be from folksy sources, his definition was more catholic. Anything imported from the North for e.g, would automatically qualify under this category (Behag, Sindhu Bhairavi, Jonpuri etc.). Anything with anya-swarams that was hard to codify would fall under desiya.

VK, I found his take to be quite different from TMK's and also others like Prof S. Ramanathan. It made me raise my eyebrows a few times.

Pity that the video was removed.

[vidya]

I have not seen the said video or the other references mentioned but wanted to post this in the interest of clarity.

"Context" and "Timeframe" are two key factors when it comes to understanding terms used in Indian music. It is important to remember that the same term meant different things in different times and when used in different contexts. Treatise writers in the past have redefined and reinterpreted "a term" according to the time-frame they lived in addition to coming up with new terms. So the term 'desi' as applied to desi when used as a qualifier to 'sangIta' (ie in contradistinction to marga sangita) and then to desi ragas in the context of ancient music (and early medieval music) was different.

In later and specifically the post Ratnakara times,and the advent of the the raga system and the introduction of classificatory systems such as (uttama,madhyama, adhama),(ghana, naya(rakti) desya) the term desya was used in a different sense.This classification is first seen in texts written in the late 1600's. In this context and in this background, 'desya' ragas or desi ragas are mostly imports ie ragas that are generally characterized by "injunctions to be sung according to lakshyamArga","originating from the North", "ranjakatva or pleasing" - So in essence these are ragas with greater flexibility in interpretation.

[vasanthakokilam]

Vidya: Thanks very much. That clarifies a few things for me.

You left the second paragraph in a cliffhanger Are dEsi and dESi different words and is that the source of the confusion among us?

Can you explain further dEsi sangIta vs mArga sangIta and dESi rAga vs non-DESi raga?

Is the meaning of the context you describe in your third paragraph in addition to the above two distinctions?

What are the examples of those pleasing Northern ragas with great flexibility in interpretation that you mention last?

Is North here meant to be HM ragas or that question itself is not a relevant in this context?

Thanks.

[Enna_Solven]

What are the examples of those pleasing Northern ragas with great flexibility in interpretation that you mention last?

Sriram played Kapi (both varieties) and then sang Behag & Sindhu Bhairavi along with an invited youngster from the audience.

[vidya]

vasanthakokilam,
No, It's the same word and spelt desi - Realized using romanized fonts here doesn't work well here so changed it back uniformly.
Context 1: This is the usage of desi in early and medieval texts as a.A qualifier to sangita and raga ie marga sangita 1b desi ragas.
Context 2: This is the usage of desi (also desya) as it applies to ghana,naya, desya classification which is what Sriram's talk is probably alluding to.
The source of confusion: Relating a context 2 term to context 1.

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks Vidya. That clarifies it for me.

In context 2, is there a similar classification/practice in HM? If lakshayamArga is to be understood in the context of lakshyam vs lakshanam (aesthetics vs grammar), would the various misra-ragas come under this desi umbrella? (like misra-kamaj )

[VK RAMAN]

"there is very little in the raga alapana of a CM ragam. One has learnt many krithis and phrases come automatically" - This interesting way to look at

[vasanthakokilam]

Vidya, coming back to this topic, there are still a few things unclear to me.

1. In Context 1, I understand that it is to be understood in contrast to mArga sangIta but I do not know what mArga sangIta itself is. So can you write briefly what the desi sangItA refers to.

2. For these treatise writers, what is 'North'? If these writers are based in North India, then to them North would place it outside of India. ( this thought came to me mainly because I recall some treatise writer, may be Venkatamakhin, attributing kalyANi to be of turkish or mughul origin.. how would kalyANi be classified? )

3. How will we classify sahAnA and kAnaDA, in both or either contexts? They come across as "there is something 'special' about them" without really knowing what it is. This is even more true of sahAna than kAnaDA. It sounds Indian to our ears definitely but there is something about it that sets it apart from all others. ( I can not avoid the fuzziness about this, sorry )

[vidya]

Vasanthakokilam,
1.In terms of a 'text-book' definition, Marga is that which has to do with the 'Natya' of Bharata. Desi was that 'Sangita' that was different from Bharata's 'nAtya' and with an added attribute of "that which was sung by people in their lands of their own accord". (Both these terms Natya and Sangita encompass the elements of music, dancing and drumming/ instruments). However recent writers on history, culture and anthropology provide their own interpretations and extensions of these terms.
Ananda Coomaraswamy (and many others after him) uses the term 'folk' for the word desi and tries
to reduce it to simple binaries of folk vs classical which is not quite the case. In any case dEsi
sangIta can be understood as that which was not practiced by Bharata and that which was prevalent in various regions. For precise academic / theoretical articles on these classifications please refer to Dr.V.Premalatha's articles on http://www.musicresearch.in.

2.In this context, anything beyond the Deccan is the North. This is because the treatise-writer
who first used the ghana-naya-desya system was based in Tanjavur. Anything that arrived from elsewhere (ie North of the Deccan region) ended up being labeled desya. Such a classification is absent in the North. as the North Indian classifiers seem to have focused on the familial relationship, thaṭ-groupings, and iconographic representations etc.This is perhaps because the "borrowals" and influences were not confined to a smaller contained subset as in the South. It is important to understand that any classification scheme is grounded to the temporal and regional locators of the person classifying.

3.How will we classify sahAnA and kAnaDA, in both or either contexts?
As said above, these definitions and classifications are temporal and their interpretation varies based on whether you are wearing a 17th, 18th,19th,20th or 21st Century hat and of course where you are/were located. Today Begada, Sahana and Kanada though they were historical borrowals from other regions they are mainstream rakti ragas. So 'rakti' is a complex function of "extant usage" as well as "possible/potential mobility and fluidity" of certain svarasthanas and perhaps "melodic origins"

[rshankar]

Based on what I understood from Dr. Padma Subramaniam's explanations regarding dancing, the mArga/desi evolution is similar - her research (referenced with evidence from the sculptures) suggests that at one time, all dance forms in India were uniform, and their grammar was based on the nATya SAstra (apparently sculptures of dancers that predate a certain period show similar stances - ardhamanDali etc. - from all regions of India) - over time, regional influences came into play and this one uniform style (mArga) evolved into what she calls regional neo-classical forms (desi) like bharatanATyam, oDissi, kathak, maNipuri etc....In the process, the grammar that these 'desi' styles have followed shifted away from the nATya SAstra - for instance, in the case of bharatanATyam, I think Nandikeshwara's abhinaya darpaNa is the text followed. Dr. Padma's dance is based on the nATya SAstra and is mArga rather than desi - and she's chosen to call it bharatanRtyam

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks Vidya for the clear explanation. The context 1 usage brings to mind the sanskrit vs prakrit distinction as a parallel. HM folks seem to use the word desi with this context 1meaning, as in them considering kamaj as a desi raga. I will read up further on Dr.V.Premalatha's articles. Thanks.

Ravi, thanks for the dance point of view. I now recall some furious exchanges in the natya section regarding the use of the word 'mArgA' especially when used in a way to imply some one else's school is not mArgA. Based on what you wrote, I understand where the sensitivity that is inherent in those exchanges comes from.

[Radhika-Rajnarayan]

Here is a lovely kalyani - http://www.mediafire.com/?yl3r2x8n8hgbyg9