Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
VK RAMAN
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by VK RAMAN »

Any sound has a sruti for a real musician; I find sruti in microwave too.

vallknowme
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vallknowme »

thats exactly my point. thats because you APPRECIATE music as opposed to sit and quantify it. This so called "shruti" analysis is for artificially intelligent robots that can manipulate pitches.

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

So your point is that musicians do not sing notes? Well, they do.

But, as the most ignorant person in the discussion, I can still appreciate that there is more to it in Carnatic music.

I attended the launch of the book I referred to a post or three ago, and it was extremely interesting.

But, if we are going to get into nothing-can-be-quantified land, we might as well all just go and join an audiophile forum :))

(I am a member of an audiophile forum ;) )

cmlover
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by cmlover »

Who decides whether shruti is off when there is no objective measurement ?
If it is too bad ALL rasikas will notice it.
Occasionally we hear from a self-styled critic who states authoritatively while ordinary folks will not notice.
For example if it is a vivadi rare raga it will sound odd and one may blame the artiste unjustly as off shruti.
KJY who attempts exotic ragas has often been blamed unjustly!

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

vallknowme: As I said, I am "blessed" with inaccurate sense of pitch, let alone deficient knowledge of raga, but friends who sit in the audience and tell me that an artist had a problem are not sitting there with meters, but are using their ears, their knowledge and their experience of music. I don't think they are imagining anything, and they are certainly not failing to "appreciate" the music. Whilst CM audiences might be said to have an excess of intellectual involvement, similar to some jazz audiences, there don't seem to be many robots around.

There are plenty of scientists, mathematicians, physicists. If some of them decide to use the tools of their trade to study and investigate music, does it disqualify them as music lovers and render them robots?

SrinathK
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by SrinathK »

@Nick H, I agree. Physics and mathematics do help. Now all I need is a tanpura app and a tuning fork app (for some trickier ones) to render the correct frequency of a note for a given Sa (from A to G and all in between) to improve my plain swara shuddam (even though the fork won't help with gamakas one bit). It's wrong to belittle an intellectual analysis of music. [-x While an audience member has no need to delve too deep into the technicalities, these studies are quite beneficial to the performer (athlete, musician, sportsman...or the app developer :) ) . Besides some humans just prefer to express interest through their brain :-B

On a side note, ordinary sounds (even the spoken voice) are not shruti because they consist of too many discordant and unsteady frequencies. It becomes shruti or musical when there is a clear harmonic relationship between all the frequencies produced. And yes, 22 shrutis applies only to plain notes, tuner apps and graha bhedam, not to gamakas and moving phrases. We do need them in long held kaarvais because a plain sustained note can't be held at an "apaswara" point.

Nevertheless in practice, practicing plain notes does help improve shruti shuddam on gamakas considerably, not to mention the tonal improvements on both voice and instrument. It also teaches correct vocal or instrumental technique, something to keep in mind so as to avoid unwanted strain while going into heavy madhyamakala gamakas (which is where the majority of all defects come out).

vallknowme
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vallknowme »

The closest way to quantify shruti is possible through biomedical engineering. Do an fMRI scan of the brain while a rasika listens to the music and statistically quantify it.

Rsachi
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Rsachi »

Srinath,
I downloaded an app on my iPad called "Guitar Tuner" by Gismart for free. It has a tuning fork app. See this shot: it has an electronic tuning fork too.
My ears can distinguish a pitch change of one or two hertz also!
Image

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

vallknowme wrote:The closest way to quantify shruti is possible through biomedical engineering. Do an fMRI scan of the brain while a rasika listens to the music and statistically quantify it.
Well, we have a member that does that sort of stuff :)

But anyway...

You know how conversations require mutual understanding of language? Please define shruti as you see it. Currently, I don't see how anyone can discuss your statements. substitute "Ghost" for "Sruti" and you might see what I mean.

vallknowme
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vallknowme »

May I know who that person may be? I can work with him.

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

Member Mahavishnu works with the effects of music on the brain. Member cacm (VKV) is a senior physicist. Member Uday_Shankar is an engineer who also does acoustic research (and invention) in carnatic music. Probably there are lots more, at least two or three are on the tip of my brain cell. The idea of a forum is that, through conversation, one gets to know these things. Even a for-ever novice like me learns stuff here --- and maybe even, occasionally contributes. But it is done by conversation, not making blunt statements or denials.

vallknowme
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vallknowme »

Nick H, I am assuming you are being humble when you say you are a novice. If you do not want to look at music as an art, but "scientify/quantify" it, we will have to discuss biophysics. Some theorists do not like biophysics, because they are theorists. So, as an engineer, I can only discuss transducer designs and measurement science. How are these apps/robots/androids/music-loving-non-humans able to measure shruti? What kind of transducers they have? How about the transducers that bats' ears have? Bats can appreciate subtle notes and perhaps better music than humans. If not music, we will have to talk engineering.

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

No, I really am a novice, even though my concert tally (if I'd ever kept it) must be a thousand or more.

You didn't answer my question.

It also occurs to me that if all know you (or is that a misreading, a wrong parsing?) then you probably know those who I mentioned, and more.

vallknowme
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vallknowme »

I do know mahavishnu and aware of his research because he is in the University of California system. I have read uday's papers.

munirao2001
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by munirao2001 »

I am extremely happy and feeling proud of you for the deep knowledge and skills of usage of technology in the investigation and solutions. Continue your search in the same spirit to eliminate myths, myth making and idolatry which are affecting the quality in Indian Classical Music.

munirao2001

SrinathK
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by SrinathK »

If you have a tuning fork app and a good tanpura app, then this excel sheet here can give the plain note frequencies for all keys. Tune and listen to that fork's shruti shuddam for yourself. ;)

https://db.tt/Ica9ZQlK

Rsachi
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Rsachi »

Srikanth,
Humour me. Are you implying that tuning forks don't work for CM? Are you implying our idea of various swara sthanas don't correspond precisely to the excel table values?
Thanks

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

Tuning forks are tied to 1. A=440, and 2. the Western tempered scale. I don't think either [necessarily] apply to Indian music?

If you can sing CM to the notes sounded by a Western electronic tuning aid, then you could do so to a normally-tuned keyboard.

Sophisticated electronic aids can easily have their base note (A=440) changed. They also offer a variety of scales other than tempered: are any of them suited to any Carnatic raga?

Western tuning aids are often seen on the stage, and have been even before they became battery operated. Pitch pipes used to be blown into. However, as I understand it, they purpose is to share a common starting place, to establish SA. It then doesn't matter whether we call it C, D, or E, or 1, 2, or 3: it only matters that it is some note within the comfort zone of vocalist, mridangist, violin, etc. Actually, even in Western music, A may not be = to 440.

So no, tuning forks do not work for CM, except in that one tuning fork could be used to establish that shared base note. They are are a red herring for the performers --- and any sort of herring would be most unwelcome on the carnatic stage.

Working in the other direction, the electronic meters work for any sound with a big enough single measurable harmonic so, yes, for the measurers and analysts, they "work" for CM.

SrinathK
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by SrinathK »

I said, tuning fork APP. ;) Tuning forks might not work on gamakas, but definitely plain notes, kaarvais and graha bhedam points. Gamakas are moving phrases so how much can a tuning fork help you there? The excel table was only for helping tuning the fork in the app.

Unlike a physical fork, an app however is fully capable of generating any frequency for a fork to vibrate at. Besides, all this is only for helping practice purposes. And the intervals in the table are not ET if you scroll up and see. :D

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

OK... I'm useless at numbers and daunted by a page of them --- so excuse if my comments were wrong/irrelevant :)

SrinathK
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by SrinathK »

No big deal. See, if your shruti is C sharp, then look at one of the 3 C sharps there on the rows. The keys have been given up to a range of 3 octaves. Then if i want the panchamam, I look on the column under the ratio 1.5 and I have the frequency. I have a tuning fork app in my phone and next to a tanpura it sounds divine.

Rsachi
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Rsachi »

Ok that's how I first read your excel and am in concurrence.
I was really tempted to bring in this app to settle an argument, and a well known singer was arguably straying from the top SA as she sang again and again.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Rsachi , you cannot say who it is.;)

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I am watching the TMK lectures ( CMI Arts Initiative Oct-Nov 2012) on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCMIVideos

What he discusses there in the initial set of lectures seems to be related to this issue here. I know we spend a lot of time on terminology, so let us see if TMK's ideas on normalizing that is agreeable to people here. We can then talk about 'Suddha' for each one of them.

1. Sruthi - AdhAra Shadja ( say 1 kattai in the 3rd register (C3) - 130.813 Hz)
2. Swarasthana - A specific point in the octave as per the tuning system chosen relative to the AdhAra. ( For the above Sa, 174.417 is the Suddha Madhyamam )
3. Swara - The melodic concept/idea that is not fixed to a single frequency. Refers to the embodiment of all the gamakas with all the context specific characterization. TMK insists on treating this as a concept by itself and not as something like 'Swara is swarasthana with gamaka of you apply gamaka to the swarasthana to get swara' which are the popular notions. So the swara 'Ma' is many things depending on the context of a raga. The swarasthana happens to be one of them but that is just incidental.
In this view, swara is a purely musical/melodic idea.

In the spectrum of what a particular Swara is, the swarasthana can be at one end, the other end, or the middle or even more interestingly the swarasthana is not even there in any meaningful form. The easy example of the last one is the 'darbar Ga' or probably even the' Thodi Ga or Kanada Ga'.

I think this terminology distinction is very useful to have. This way, we can hang our often debated topics on a proper framework. For example, the 22 sruthis debate is in the domain of items 1 and 2 and not necessarily item 3. When people say there are '6 different Mas', they are not necessarily talking about Swarasthana (item 2) but definitely they are talking about swara ( item 3 ).

These are nothing new for most of us, but laying out this distinction and using the terms properly and consistently helps the discussion and clarify matters enormously.

And we can talk about 'Suddha' ( the main topic of this thread ) in a deliberate and specific manner.

a. Shruthi Suddha - ( are you aligned to the AdhAra Shadja through out the singing )
b. Swarasthana Suddha - ( where the swara happens to coincide with the swarasthana, are you at the right position in the octave? )
c. Swara Suddha ( Are you executing the Swaras, in all its gamaka glory, whose sounds are within the normally accepted set for that raga )

While 1 and 2 ( or a and b above ) are easily mathematically treated, item 3 (swara) is more involved and probably should be considered outside the domain of analysis/science and be treated as part of the art form. Though it is possible to trace the contours in terms of frequencies etc. that is only one aspect of what a 'Swara' is. Swara also includes how individuals perceive it which includes non-technical things like psychological conditioning, emotional response etc. This is probably the distinction vallknowme is trying to make.

This psychological conditioning can actually involve perceiving swaras that are not even voiced ( there was an interesting example of that in his lecture where an audience member heard Charukesi when TMK did not sing Charukesi exclusively though he had Charukesi in mind! Really! ). And a more mundane example of the psychological conditioning as a culture is the famous example of how kampita gamaka ( oscillation ) is enjoyed by CM folks and considered out of sruthi by many others.

So sruthi is a much wider concept and it is in the domain of arts which form the basis/stepping stone for talking about what a raga is which is even more removed from science and deep into the musical/melodic art form.

Now, we can ask two questions:
What is 'swara suddha'?
What is 'raga suddha'?

Answer is not quite easy. The first level answer is of course 'if the musician is within the bounds of what is normally accepted set of gamakas of the swaras of the raga'. That is a technical answer and while it is not wrong, it is not sufficient since it leaves out the perception by the listener. Our brain is a quite complicated and wonderful thing and it adjusts/compensates/reinterprets things on the fly. ( strictly a side bar here: Uday said in a different thread about Graha Beda that how we perceive a change in raga seems to be based on the swara patters that are unique to the 'new' raga even if we do not temporarily change the Aadhara Shadja etc. Hope I did not misunderstand what Uday said. If it is not relevant to the idea here, please ignore this side bar, we will pick it back up in a different context ).

So given this, swara suddha/raga suddha is a complicated matter and it may explain why CM fans are tolerant of some deviations while other fans may not. CM fans may be instinctively looking for that musical idea that swara and swara sequences are, and their brains ( due to conditioning ) can be quite greedy in forming those ideas even if they are not technically perfect at the sruthi and swarasthana level.

It leads to an intriguing idea that even in the midst of some small deviations in sruthi and swarasthana, swara/raga can still be in tact in the musician's mind and more importantly in the audience's mind.

cmlover
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by cmlover »

Thanks VK for that clear analysis and interpretation of TMk (which I am also following). It may take some time for the ideas to sink before I start responding.

kvchellappa
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by kvchellappa »

That was like a criticism of Shakespeare by, say, Bradley, or to me, Dover Wilson on Hamlet. (What happens in Hamlet)

vainika
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vainika »

Nick, on the subject of auto-tune, you've seen the following, I assume :)

http://seasonion.tumblr.com/post/143157 ... ched-today

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

Wonderful!

And what a fabulous collection writing! Seasonion :))

Only time for a glance at the moment, but stories such as those of the two-hour artist introduction and the disappeared VIP chief guest deserve to become part of our folklore.

I wonder if it written by anyone we know :)

mahavishnu
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by mahavishnu »

brilliant! Ditto to what Nick said.
I hope this site continues to remain active. The posts seem to have been most regular during the 2011 season.

arunk
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by arunk »

lol :-) !

Arun

rshankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by rshankar »

The author (whoever he/she is) combines razor sharp wit and insousciant irreverence with consummate ease! Awesome! :ymapplause:

cacm
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by cacm »

BRILLIANT! WOULD LOVE TO HEAR HIS/HER ASSESSMENT OF THE CURRENT CARNATIC MUSIC SCENE. VKV :-o :(( #:-s :-BD :ymparty: [-( :-@ :D :-\ :ymapplause: :-B :-! :-\ :-\

VK RAMAN
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by VK RAMAN »

sruti adjuster must be fitted to ears too otherwise the singer who is deaf will not know the difference. Awesome article

cmlover
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by cmlover »

Vainika
You forgot to mention the price range of SSD :)
I would love to acquire the distrinution rights for NA (or at leat for Canada).
My only concern is about the Rolled Betel Leaf model which may be associated with Oral Cancer (until studies prove otherwise) !
(In the interest of CM I am willing to apply for a NIH grant if further technical details are available.
Human guineapigs will have to be compensated :D

Rsachi
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Rsachi »

Quote:
"We also have an unprecedented number of pre-bookings for our third model Pacifier, designed for infant prodigies whose abilities to sing in shruti typically lag behind their precocious talents in the domain of raga identification”, remarked Ledar Director Dr. Paramasivam.
Dr. Paramasivam also reported that since the press release last week, he had been deluged with calls from members of PMO-OADEK (Pushy Moms of Over Achieving Desi Kids) South Bay chapter to design a special SSD that corrects shruti deviations upto ±1200 cents. He said R&D for this product was underway.

Unquote

What brilliant topical humour! Bravo. :-D

rajeshnat
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by rajeshnat »

Lovely and brilliant ,seasonian.

uday_shankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by uday_shankar »

Rajesh, it's "seasonion" like the "onion", a fake news magazine published in Madison WI. Hope the brilliant blogger resumes activity :).

SrinathK
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by SrinathK »

Finally, a CM faking news page. ROFL!
a special SSD that corrects shruti deviations upto ±1200 cents
That's a deviation correction of +/- 1 octave, LOL MAXX!

rshankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by rshankar »

uday_shankar wrote:Rajesh, it's "seasonion" like the "onion".
And rhymes with Saturn too!!

KNV1955
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by KNV1955 »

Why do CM mridangist struggle with Sruti alignment? It is glaring during Tani avartanam. The answer is simple. They bang the instrument & they do the same for tuning the instrument. IMO the tambura & Sruti box must be switched off during tani. They can't tune the instrument half way thro tani. Sometimes it is very harsh to bear it. May be there are exceptions but it is a small % (less than 10%)

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

Sometimes they pause, tune and continue ...but I don't see that the sruthi box contributes much to the thani, so yes, why not switch it off.
uday_shankar wrote:Rajesh, it's "seasonion" like the "onion", a fake news magazine published in Madison WI. Hope the brilliant blogger resumes activity :).
seasonion --- so it is!

I read it all yesterday evening. It is wonderfully caustic, but manages to be so gently and always with a smile. It seems to have been short-lived. A resurgence would be welcome!

His organisations and their abbreviations/acronyms are especially good.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Quite funny. There used to be one Mahadevan who used to write along these lines but this blogger is even better.

uday_shankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by uday_shankar »

Nick H wrote:His organisations...
Gender bias ?! Who'd have thunk...et tu Nicholas ?!

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

Whoops! caught me out there :ymblushing:

kvchellappa
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by kvchellappa »

There appears to be a challenge here for those who hold that only MMI and MS were sruti perfect. (I am happily incapable of judging it):
http://cyberbrahma.com/chowdiah-challen ... s=og.likes

cacm
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by cacm »

Dear KVC,
I am a HUGE FAN OF GNB & consider him as the one who blazed the glory of Carnatic Music in TWENTIETH CENTURY to NEW LEVELS. Unfortunately he did have some problems with sruti during certain periods of his career. The Mysore Concert you have referred to I actually attended & Chowdiah reacted to some one in the audience in the reference you have mentioned. I think the way to look at these things is to study what happened over their entire concert career. MMI & MSS CERTAINLY in this aspect were the two who were perfect in this regard. VKV

vallknowme
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vallknowme »

How does othu nadaswaram work as for as shruti measurement goes?

srikant1987
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by srikant1987 »

Shruti shuddham attains meaning only when clarity is in place, and is more and more meaningful in clearer and clearer music. In an obfuscated style, with muffled sound, shruti shuddham has no meaning. In a passage of music largely intended to overwhelm with virtuosity, again, shruti shuddham doesn't remain as meaningful anymore.

uday_shankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by uday_shankar »

vallknowme wrote:How does othu nadaswaram work as for as shruti measurement goes?
This is such an important topic. I suspect the main reason most of 20th century Nagaswaram music recordings are often marred by apashrutis, including (GASP!!) those of TNR and Karaikuruchi Arunachalam is the use of the (bellow driven) shruti box. Most wind instruments and particularly the nagasvaram, drift in shruti depending on variations in temperature, humidity, moistness of the reed, energy levels of the player (very important particularly in the upper sthayi), etc...In an earlier era, the othu oodal person automatically went with the flow and adjusted the shruti, which was allowed to gradually drift up or down. When the constant shruti shruti box was introduced (I think by TNR, who wanted to "raise" the Nagasvaram to the concert platform), this vital adjustment was lost and the nagasvaram player was doomed to adhere to the constant shruti.

Sometime last year, there was a link to a youtube recording by parivadini / Lalitha Ram to a documentary on a wonderful Nagasvaram artist from Chidambaram, I forget everything else related to it (early onset Alzheimer's ?). The entire piece was somewhat marred by the "apashruti" box (yes, I believe in the case of Nagasvaram, it is the business of the shruti box, not the player, to stay in shruti !) and I was thinking to myself how much more wonderful this artist would sound with just an othu oodal.

It must be said that recent vidvans like Injikudi Subramaniam and Vyaasarpaadi Kothandaraman have seemingly scaled the impossible heights of achieving admirable shruti shuddam in nagasvaram to the accompaniment of a shruti box. This is a superhuman feat unmatched by nagasvaram artists of yesteryears, although if you ask the artists they would completely deny this out of deference and great respect for the genius of those past artists. I don't have any irreverence either, just making a banal statement of fact from the point of view an acoustic investigator :).

Again, shruti shuddham is a very complex psychoacoustic phenomenon and many people, including vallknowme and srikanth1987 have made very pertinent points. It is above all a matter of perception management.
srikant1987 wrote: is more and more meaningful in clearer and clearer music. In an obfuscated style, with muffled sound, shruti shuddham has no meaning.
Indeed, indeed, indeed! I would also add that when the atmosphere is saturated with a medley of loud steady sounds, like a harmonium (Hindustani music) or a synthesizer (many kinds of music), shruti shuddham doesn't have much meaning ! Last season I attended a concert by the great Venkatesh Kumar at Kalakshetra who sang with great emotive power and seemingly “perfect” adherence to shruti. Behind him were two great miraj tamburas, which remained untouched over the course of a couple hours and probably drifted apart ever so slightly :). But they were barely heard so it didn't matter! The harmonium practically drowned all other sounds. The equally tempered harmonium sounded well calibrated (i.e., the octaves matched up well and the tonal quality was great) and Venkatesh Kumar’s notes were in “perfect match”. But most importantly the tonal quality[/b[ of his voice was unmatched and his ability to modulate it at places like mel Sa and hold it extremely steady and in seemingly perfect unison with the harmonium (much more than the two tamburas, mind you!!) for a long time gives a perception of shruti shuddham that makes Carnatic rasikas bemoan their own lot much more than they need to !

More later (perhaps in a week's time).

kvchellappa
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by kvchellappa »

Sri VKV sir,
Thank you for your graceful comments. Of course, I do not know music except to enjoy.

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