Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

[vasanthakokilam]

Rsachi, machines are much better at your item 2 than humans.

[Rsachi]

Machines to help in Sruti alignment practice - I believe in it. But I am not an inventor myself.

Teachers to help students practise the right way - I believe in it but I am not a music teacher.

Which all means there is a lot of work to be done and who'll do it??
!

[srkris]

Is it just a co-incidence that śruti/svara-śuddham is the exception in the Carnatic system, and the norm in Hindustani system? Or does it go back to the fundamental nature of the languages spoken by singers and/or listeners?

We know that the northern languages are descended from Vedic which was a tonal language (where the differences between udātta, anudātta, svarita, pracaya swaras etc were significant to alter the meanings of words), while in the southern languages, the concept of swara is used only in music, and is not ingrained in the language itself.

Does this lack of recognition to śruti therefore spring from a deeper linguistic and phonetic level (in the way we conceive sound production at a sub-conscious level)?

A related issue is about the pronunciation of aspirated letters like bha, gha, cha, jha, dha, kha etc (which are normally pronounced ba, ga, ca, ja, da, ka by southern singers) while such issues would be very rare among the speakers of the northern languages.

[KNV1955]

Skris lovely analysis.

KNV

[vgovindan]

IMHO, assuming for a moment that aspirated letters contribute to svara suddham, it should be applicable only to Tamils. What about Keralites, Kannadigas and Andhraites? I think this may have something to do with genetics - I find there is more deep-throatedness in North than in South. Further, in the Sankarabharanam film there is a scene of the girl doing singing practice standing in neck deep water. This was earlier the approach for musical training. But, in our instant food generation, teachers try to teach manodharama sangIta within three years - something akin to making elementary school student a research scholar. Therefore, there is no wonder that we have not made any special efforts for voice culture and svara suddham right from the kindergarten stage of music.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Vgovindan Sir,

In fact , most of the yesteryear singers swara alignment were so so poor especially the male doyens ( Except a few). Nowadays it is much better but still there needs to be polishing.

There is often a joke that goes like for those yesteryear male singers. " Avar oruvele appdi andha swarangala manasula nenachundaar polarukku , koncham vera maadhiri ketkudhu".
" WHAT YOU CREATE IN YOUR MIND IS WHAT THE SOUND EXACTLY YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO PRODUCE AS MUSIC, AND THE SAME SHOULD BE EXACTLY COMPREHENDED BY THE DISCERNING AUDIENCE" . IF ALL THE THE THREE ALIGNS THEN IT IS SHRUTHI SUDHA MUSIC.

[Nick H]

Is it just a co-incidence that śruti/svara-śuddham is the exception in the Carnatic system, and the norm in Hindustani system? Or does it go back to the fundamental nature of the languages spoken by singers and/or listeners? ... ... ...

Surely, there is a broad expectation of musicians worldwide that they should sing or play in tune and that they should not sing or play wrong notes? This is not language dependent, and applies as much to English, which is not tonal (unless I have misunderstood; I'm not familiar with the technical terms of linguistics) as to Chinese, which is famously tonal.

Hope I have not got this completely wrong.

As to "full-throated" singing: the child can make itself heard across the playground, so why does he or she take up a whisper in the music class and proceed to do that on the stage? Whilst sometimes the teacher may have a week voice, so will not encourage strength in the student, that can only be the explanation in a few cases. Whilst there is proper technique in voice projection, which is taught to all actors, etc, to have the voice so restricted seems actually unnatural.

[mahavishnu]

We know that the northern languages are descended from Vedic which was a tonal language (where the differences between udātta, anudātta, svarita, pracaya swaras etc were significant to alter the meanings of words), while in the southern languages, the concept of swara is used only in music, and is not ingrained in the language itself.

Srkris, I don't think this is true for most spoken languages of the north today. I would not consider them tonal languages at all (there is no melodic prosody at any level in northern or southern Indian languages).

While it is true that speaker of tonal languages have better perception and production of absolute pitch (like native Chinese speakers), there is no evidence that this is true in systems with relative pitch including both forms of Indian classical music.

In fact, Punjabi is the only extant tonal language in India (and that too only approximately: ) and I really doubt if singers in this tradition have a better sense of pitch than others.

I think the differences are entirely phenotypic, having to do with the culture and systems of practice. Work from our laboratories in psychoacoustics show that most people are bad at reproducing heard frequencies either vocally or with an instrument. A lot of education of the senses and (music induced) plasticity is required to overcome these inherent limitations in acoustic processing.

[munirao2001]

Sruthi matha and laya pitah. To be recognized as Vidwan, Indian Classical Music also demands such reverence and adherence to the main principle of sruthi and svara sudham. With idolization in KM the defects are either condoned, tolerated or at worst misunderstood as style. Quality has suffered. With the freedom given, artists do not practice to achieve perfection. Rasikas do not care or demand this vital aspect of quality in music. If change has to happen the event managers and sponsors/patrons should stop giving opportunities to the artists with this fundamental defect. Yet another aspect of deficiencies in quality is delivery. Defect eulogized as style. Another important aspect is with rare exceptions, these deficiencies with male vocalists and instrumentalists only. If Vidushees can achieve quality through practice, why Vidwans can not achieve quality? Great Maestro Shri KVN had told me that he did not have natural gift of voice in sruthi alignment with minimal efforts unlike Shri SSRao, my guru and father and through saadhana he achieved the quality. It is also a fact that with primacy for gamakams in KM, the challenge in swarasthana sudham is immensely challenging.
The training system in Hindusthani music and practice does not permit progress without achieving the perfection or near perfection. They take pride in achieving the quality. But the quality is observed in vilambit gait only. In madhya and dhrut, they are yet to achieve quality. I recall a discussion in the sadas of Music Academy in the presence of Pandit Omkarnath Thakur on this aspect. Shri SSRao demonstrated and confirmed the deficiency and was accepted by the stalwart Pandit. SSRao did highlight that with primacy for pure and straight notes in Hm over the meands, deficiencies are not apparent.

[srkris]

Srkris, I don't think this is true for most spoken languages of the north today.

Yes that is largely true (though hard to say if it is 100% factual keeping in mind that linguistic analyses analyze non representative samples), but IMHO the fact that those languages are evolved forms of what was originally a tonal language about some 100 generations ago, is likely to still affect the way north Indians conceive of sounds and specifically vowels (vowels = swaras) at a deeper cognitive subconscious level, even if the tonality of their mother tongues has largely disappeared from the surface. Sound production which is common to both music and languages has an underlying unified conceptual layer in my understanding.. the language one is accustomed to speak affects one's view of what music is supposed to be like.

[Rsachi]

I can speak for Kannada.
For singers, actors and orators, to mix up alpa and mahAprANa is considered very bad except while mimicking some very rustic dialogue. Similarly Kannada musicians try very hard to get Sanskrit and Telugu pronunciation right. Of course Tamil diction is a big challenge for them.

I think the idea nAbhI-hRt-kaMTha as Thyagaraja prescribes will take care of right intonation. But swara-rAga-sudhA requires enormous sensitivity, discipline and tight-rope walking in a concert. That many have praised lady musicians in this area here speaks a lot for their accomplishment. Add to that the inherent sonority of the female voice...

I suppose Sruti Suddham is a bit like traffic discipline. In CM a lot of leeway is taken for granted, just like on Indian roads!

[mahavishnu]

Yes that is largely true (though hard to say if it is 100% factual keeping in mind that linguistic analyses analyze non representative samples), but IMHO the fact that those languages are evolved forms of what was originally a tonal language about some 100 generations ago, is likely to still affect the way north Indians conceive of sounds and specifically vowels (vowels = swaras) at a deeper cognitive subconscious level, even if the tonality of their mother tongues has largely disappeared from the surface. Sound production which is common to both music and languages has an underlying unified conceptual layer in my understanding.. the language one is accustomed to speak affects one's view of what music is supposed to be like.

So, your theory is that there is a latent effect of something that goes back 100 generations which makes north Indians better at shruti alignment. Such an argument would be impossible to establish given how much has changed historically with Muslim invasions, persian influences and the number of practitioners of North Indian music who come from the south of the vindyas.

And if this taken to be true, what about all those that descended from that who moved south? Majority of Carnatic musicians of today came from this stream.

While I agree that language influences musical structure and vice versa (given the overwhelming scientific evidence for it), I find this theory to be a bit far-fetched.

[Ranganayaki]

Ramesh speaks my mind in that last post. It is true that a common cultural experience has effects on the conscious and subconscious mind that can last several generations, I find it far-fetched to think the tonality of a language said to be marginally tonal can have such a decisive influence through millennia. Also it only provides a convenient excuse for Southern Indians.

I would say that if there is any linguistic and cultural influence on music, it would be our social habits - shouting when we talk or make speeches, raising our voices beyond what is aesthetic to be heard when we talk over others, these are reflected in our music. Older time singers did shout a lot. The problem with a lack of voice culture is as much lack of effective and optimal use of the voice (vs abuse) as it is one of shruti shuddam and swarasthana shuddam

This discussion became very technical and I hesitated to add my thoughts. I think it is a question of an interaction between audience and artist. As long as audiences are not very demanding, artists who want to make it may satisfy themselves with lower standards because they can get away with it.

I think the traffic example is very apt.

I remember a friend of mine when we were still children. She was learning the violin and one day I saw her adjusting the screws over the strings rather purposefully before she continued playing. I asked her what the screws were for and she said she did not know, her guru had advised her to do that because it looks right!!

Please don't get me wrong when I say that I am more forgiving these days.. I only am less overtly critical. Depending on the severity of the problem, I would be more or less likely to go back to listen to an artist and sometimes I can't bear it and I turn off the internet radio which is my primary source for daily listening these days.

Another issue I have is the problem of forgetting sahitya during a concert. It happened during more than a couple of concerts I attended recently. I wanted to write reviews, but was put off by it and did not write. There is something to be said for all the handy apps that offer sahitya, why can't artists have them handy for emergencies? But I know that is not the topic of this discussion.

[srkris]

So, your theory is that there is a latent effect of something that goes back 100 generations which makes north Indians better at shruti alignment.

My belief is that languages don't lose much of their inherent/core characteristics as fast as we think they do, even when outwardly they seem to (or are claimed to) have changed.

Tonal languages mostly differ in vowel pronunciation from non-tonal languages. Vedic & Sanskrit were vowel-rich, for example in a normal word such as deva i.e. d+(a+i)+(u+a), only the letter d is a pure consonant, all others are vowel sounds (or semivowels derived from what were originally pure vowels). Taking into account the fact that Vedic was tonal as well means that for every vowel in every word, one would need to decide subconsciously use a particular swara-sthanam when talking, just imagine that! It is quite an interesting exercise to reconstruct how Vedic was originally spoken, how it changed over time to become Sanskrit, and how Sanskrit evolved further into the modern north-indian languages, one that interests me greatly, I've spent a lot of time on it before I came to my inferences as above.

Such an argument would be impossible to establish given how much has changed historically with Muslim invasions, persian influences and the number of practitioners of North Indian music who come from the south of the vindyas.

I don't think the Muslim invasions had much (or any) lasting effect on the languages spoken in India, apart from borrowing a few arab, turkish and persian words here and there.

I've found an interesting paper that indicates that the tonality is not as rare as imagined particularly in the modern languages of North-Western India (which incidentally is the very region to have have borne the highest impact of the Muslim invasions etc) -- http://www.academia.edu/2023662/Tone_an ... s_and_Tone_

And if this taken to be true, what about all those that descended from that who moved south? Majority of Carnatic musicians of today came from this stream.

Ah, I don't claim there is anything genetic about it at all. Sorry if I didn't make it clear. Descent does not matter, as the descendents do not speak the languages of their ancestors. Regardless of their ethno-linguistic origins, both carnatic musicians and listeners now speak and think on a day to day basis in language(s) that were never tonal to start with.

[arunk]

KNV1955, ganesh_mourthy,

Here is the demo video of the Sruthi Suddham feature of Swarasthana on youtube: http://youtu.be/pyMH_0E2-PA

Thanks
Arun

[Rsachi]

Pure Kannada Pure Hindustani Pure Sruti

Click pic to play

Smita Bellur is a Bangalorean Kannadiga raised in Hindustani music and a software engineer, too!

[mahavishnu]

Ah, I don't claim there is anything genetic about it at all. Sorry if I didn't make it clear. Descent does not matter, as the descendents do not speak the languages of their ancestors. Regardless of their ethno-linguistic origins, both carnatic musicians and listeners now speak and think on a day to day basis in language(s) that were never tonal to start with.

Srkris, thanks for your clarification. Even if I grant you the premise, if the mechanism of carrying forward the linguistic tradition is neither genetic nor learned, I don't see how this could have a non-local influence on present day shruti alignment.

And of the frontier languages, if Punjabi (or related) is the most tonal, it still does not explain why people there do not have a demonstrably better perception of pitch than someone from Bellary.

On the contrary, I think pitch alignment is a sensorimotor problem of aligning the vocal cords to auditory and somatosensory feedback about the sound produced and the state estimate of what the larynx feels like. While language and culture have a large influence on this, I believe that the influence will have to be more direct and less non-local to establish any meaningful causal link.

That said, thanks for the earlier link. I learned something new today about tonality in Indian languages!

[rajeshnat]

Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

The pragmatic answer is CM musicians have to worry about in generally metering out sangathis in layam/talam and they cannot take that much pauses . IN that process at times it sounds bit off as the vocalization tends to do real time micro adjustments. Of course there are many in CM who don0t concentrate and pay that much attention to shruthi.

Nice posts by many of you. Keep it going.

[srkris]

Srkris, thanks for your clarification. Even if I grant you the premise, if the mechanism of carrying forward the linguistic tradition is neither genetic nor learned, I don't see how this could have a non-local influence on present day shruti alignment.

And of the frontier languages, if Punjabi (or related) is the most tonal, it still does not explain why people there do not have a demonstrably better perception of pitch than someone from Bellary.

On the contrary, many studies seem to show that speakers of tonal languages have an ingrained pitch perception compared to speakers of non-tonal languages, so Punjabi speakers should have an intrinsic pitch perception that is lacking in, say, Tamils or Kannadigas overall. See:

http://www.neuroarts.org/pdf/tone_language.pdf
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 040912.php
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0033424
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0060676
http://www.haskins.yale.edu/staff/moosh ... pe_mul.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19633353
https://smartech.gatech.edu/handle/1853/50165
http://people.bu.edu/tkp/ETAPII_poster_ ... -et-al.pdf
http://phonetics.danielpape.info/paper/pape_sum.pdf
http://link.springer.com/article/10.375 ... 385#page-1

One interesting study even concludes: Everyone may be able to learn to name pitches, but the window of time to do it occurs only early in life. (Source: http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb05/pitch.aspx)

This is the norm, however pitch perception can be learned. I do not say that learning has no influence (which would be a futile argument really), but just that it may be unnatural for a non-tonal language speaker who doesn't have a linguistic history of pitch perception to suddenly acquire the ability.

Pitch perception among Tamils particularly (and other southern language speakers), regardless of genetic descent unless found otherwise, is therefore going to remain a cultivated exception rather than the rule, as it probably has always been if these studies are right.

[Nick H]

srkris, how do you then explain that most of the world's performers sing in tune? OK, I know this doesn't necessarily include some of the pop crowd who seem to need that software, but you know what I mean.

In the face of this, is it valid to compare districts/languages of one continent, or to consider those languages a definitive component?

This isn't CM v HM, but CM v Every-Body-Else!

[mahavishnu]

Srkris: That tonal language speakers might have better pitch perception was not in question (I have granted you that premise). I am well aware of this literature and most of the people whose work you cite here. Thanks for pulling all those papers out.

What is in question is why most north Indians who have not been tonal language speakers for over 100 generations have an advantage over, say, tamilians. The mechanism for this is non-local and hence the causality is tenuous at best. I hope you see the distinction.

Anyway, this discussion leads me to post an advertisement for a workshop we are running on the topic of Music,Language and cognition here in California: http://www.rameshlab.com/summer-school.html I will keep people posted on anything interesting that might emerge here.

This isn't CM v HM, but CM v Every-Body-Else!

Nick, Bad pitch singing is widespread around the globe. Vocalists in most live popular music concerts, from the Rolling Stones and even "live" bands like Grateful Dead are so off sometimes. Their audiences are sufficiently happy with this level of shruti, so we don't hear them complain about it in public fora

[vasanthakokilam]

Fascinating indeed. I will wait for the experts to bring the basic premise to a logical conclusion. But I wonder if such an advantage exist for listening as well? Meaning, are tonal speakers more sensitive to deviations from the right swarasthana and on the flip side the non-tonal speakers are not that sensitive?

Of course, if non-tonal speakers are highly insensitive to pitch imperfections, then this topic itself would not exist

[mahavishnu]

Meaning, are tonal speakers more sensitive to deviations from the right swarasthana and on the flip side the non-tonal speakers are not that sensitive?

The short answer is yes. Evidence suggests that tonal language speakers have the potential to achieve perfect pitch (absolute), more than non-tonal speakers.

But there is a lot of cultural conditioning and phenotypic change accompanying this, so we need to be careful when we come to larger conclusions on the basis of this phenomenon. It is not that there are a billion undiscovered music geniuses in East Asia, whose talent is overflowing across the South China sea : )

One could argue that given the right cultural acoustic environment, tonal language speakers are at an advantage when it comes to learning pitch values. A lot of this can be seen in the "tiger mother" phenomenon that is hugely prevalent in much of the US and elsewhere.

[uday_shankar]

Evidence suggests that tonal language speakers have the potential to achieve perfect pitch (absolute), more than non-tonal speakers.

This is a bit confusing. First it bears repeating something that I have done ad nauseum over the years, i.e., that shruti shuddham of the kind we talk about in Indian Classical Music has absolutely nothing to do with the having "perfect pitch" or "absolute pitch". Absolute/Perfect pitch is an approximate "ballpark" kind of skill wherein the person is able to cubby hole a particular musical tone heard to one of the twelve semitones (C, C#, etc...through A#,B) in an octave, and then to a more limited extent identify the particular octave of the piano (i.e., C2, C3...etc. middle C is C4). Some people may be born with it, somebody with a musical ear can cultivate it. Most importantly, a casual reader should not make the obvious and completely wrong conclusion, based purely on semantics that "perfect pitch" converys "perfection" in shruti !! I would advocate the consistent use of the semantically unambiguous phrase "absolute pitch" to avoid the confusion.

"Shruti Shuddham" is all about achieving precision and perfection in relative pitch with respect to a constant tonic., i.e., a particular case of relative pitch Of course, relative pitch need not be with reference to a tonic or reference shruti but simply being able to discern relationships between successive musical tones. For example, a tune may start at an arbitrary key and the ability to "carry the tune" forward indicates an ability in relative pitch. This alone matters in most musical contexts, certainly in Indian music and perhaps rock/pop/etc where there are many cues as to where to start singing. Possibly vocalists in WCM such as sopranos and tenors need some degree of absolute pitch but others can get by without it. Conductor Zubin Mehta has said he doesn't have it.

Secondly, I fail to see an immediate connection between tonal languages and absolute pitch. It still only suggests relative pitch to me. Surely all Chinese people - i.e., men, women and children - don't enunciate a particular Chinese phrase with the same absolute pitch ?! I can certainly believe that their time series spectral morphology are highly correlated, but that has nothing to do with absolute pitch. So I can see how it could be argued that growing up speaking Chinese automatically predisposes one to "carry a tune"...after all speaking the language itself is a matter of "carrying the tune" !

Nick, more later, but shruti shuddham is a more nuanced and precise way of looking at the business of "singing in pitch". By the exacting standards of Indian Classical Music much of rock/pop/jazz and even classical do not have shruti shuddham. What happens in CM is a different matter and perhaps I will comment on that at a later time .

[SrinathK]

I don't think it has anything to do with phonetics or genetics. It's just proper practice. In CM, once gamakas are thrown in, we are dealing no longer with plain notes but with continuously moving phrases. This causes the perceived position of a swara to shift dramatically from it's fixed plain note position. The challenge is much more in this regard because of the sheer variety of gamaka colours in CM.

At the basic level there are few exercises taught to develop perfection over the gamakas at all tempos. Singing heavy gamakas over many years does tax the voice more than plain note singing so plain note singing practice is always necessary to keep the voice 'calibrated'.

But in my opinion, it's just down to those mics and acoustics. When musicians need monitors while sitting next to each other and keep asking for adjustments, it's a sign of singing 'deaf' and that's the #1 reason for on stage errors. And violinists are especially unfortunate here as it is so easy to drown out a violin that doesn't have the power of a Strad or Guarneri. The few times I have played, the only instrument or voice that was never loud enough was the violin's. That and the a/c - wicked at freezing fingers.

This sruti problem is probably the reason for the bias against vivadi ragas - tell me whether there is any exercise out there dedicated to chromatic scales in CM.

[mahavishnu]

First it bears repeating something that I have done ad nauseum over the years, i.e., that shruti shuddham of the kind we talk about in Indian Classical Music has absolutely nothing to do with the having "perfect pitch" or "absolute pitch". Absolute/Perfect pitch is an approximate "ballpark" kind of skill wherein the person is able to cubby hole a particular musical tone heard to one of the twelve semitones (C, C#, etc...through A#,B) in an octave, and then to a more limited extent identify the particular octave of the piano (i.e., C2, C3...etc. middle C is C4). Some people may be born with it, somebody with a musical ear can cultivate it. Most importantly, a casual reader should not make the obvious and completely wrong conclusion, based purely on semantics that "perfect pitch" converys "perfection" in shruti !! I would advocate the consistent use of the semantically unambiguous phrase "absolute pitch" to avoid the confusion.

mahavishnu wrote:
Evidence suggests that tonal language speakers have the potential to achieve perfect pitch (absolute), more than non-tonal speakers.

Uday, I have used the term absolute pitch.Yes, I agree that having perfect absolute pitch perception has little to do performance in this context.

[karthikbala]

There are enough singers in CM who have demonstrated over the decades, excellent pitching and voice production (practically any CM singer who has sung for movies might qualify). A big problem peculiar to CM vs. HM, Opera etc, is the entry barrier is low. All sorts of people without the gift or even a serviceable voice in the first place are able (and allowed) to perform.
The situation will not change as long as Carnatic music performance is (largely) a hobbyist activity. This question of quality will never arise in the absence of an underlying economic rationale, guilds/unions, or a substantial market. If Tamil cine music becomes increasingly westernised, even that crutch will disappear. A lot of the disproportionate publicity that CM now gets from the media will evaporate, CM will find itself in the league of "Poi kaal kudirai aatam" or Morris dancing, and discussions on performance quality and technique etc. will be of even less consequence than it is today.

[KNV1955]

Kartikbala very true

[vasanthakokilam]

A big problem peculiar to CM vs. HM, Opera etc, is the entry barrier is low. All sorts of people without the gift or even a serviceable voice in the first place are able (and allowed) to perform.

This sounds quite bleak and distressing karthikbala. Let us get a measure of the problem. This is a question to you and also others who are interested in opining about this.

What % of artists who sing at the MA fall below this acceptable/serviceable line? By time slot and by vocal vs instruments. ( approximate ball park estimate is fine )

[VK RAMAN]

This allegation about the artists is unfounded in as much as CM artists work in free market place and they find their own niche and fans; the barrier is created by the rasikas and not the artists IMHO.

[srkris]

What is in question is why most north Indians who have not been tonal language speakers for over 100 generations have an advantage over, say, tamilians. The mechanism for this is non-local and hence the causality is tenuous at best. I hope you see the distinction.

Despite us believing that some north Indian languages are non-tonal while some others clearly are, there still may be some aspect of tonality that is not visible on the surface, but existing in the way north indians conceive of vowels. It may show up in other differences in pronunciation that may not be immediately obvious.

To understand this better, we will need to study where, when and how Hindi, Marathi etc lost tonality and understand how those languages coped with giving up the swaras of their vowels in their earliest stages. Tonality is central to vowels in Vedic (that's probably why vowels are named swaras in Vedic and Sanskrit). If we do this we may find (as I think) that tonality is hidden in languages like Hindi and manifests in other differences of pronunciation.

The languages/dialects of the north-west have historically exerted a powerful linguistic influence on the rest of India. Sanskrit and Vedic were north-western dialects. I do not see why such an influence would not persist even upto the present. Punjabi still exerts a powerful influence on Hindi today... and until the colonial era, language in North and Central India was not perceived to be classified as watertight divisions, it was recognized to be more of a dialect continuum, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect_continuum. There may be areas (near Punjab etc) where Hindi is tonal, there may be areas (Hyderabad for example) where it is not. I would presume that the influence of southern languages in the historical period may have contributed to the gradual disappearance of tonality of some north Indian languages.

That apart, most prominent Hindustani schools (gharanas) belong to the north-western quarter of the subcontinent if I am not wrong.

[Rsachi]

SRKris
Just tthought of this:
Mallikarjun Mansur, Sawai Gandharva, Bal Gandharva, Kumar Gandharva, Bhimsen Joshi, Basavraj Rajguru, Gangubai Hangal... All major names in HM. Hailed from North Karnataka/Maharastra border and spoke Kannada and Marathi - neither has a singsong tonality.

[arvindt]

I'll be contrarian here at the risk of inviting some wrath. I personally think the premise of this thread is not correct. I am going through the process of learning CM currently from a good guru for the last several years and her shruti suddham is above question. I have also attended many HM concerts and listened to quite a bit of HM recordings including BGAK, Bhimsen, Mallikarjun, Ustad Amir Khan, etc.. and I think most of the good CM performers have equally good shruti suddham. I just think the music itself is typically faster kala pramAnam and shorter karvais (pauses), with lower tambura volume. Also CM performers seem to select lower shrutis than corresponding HM performers (e.g. singing at C = 1 kattai or C# = 1.5 kattais as opposed to Hindustani artists who invariably sing at least D 2 kattais or D#).

All of these (fewer and shorter pauses, lower tambura volume, and lower base shruti) I believe contribute to a lack of a "sense of alignment" in CM in the listener's mind, whereas the slow note by note alignment in a typical HM alapana (aalaap), higher tambura volume and higher base shruti lend a sense of "shruti alignment" and better tonality. To illustrate this point, take an MSS who sang at relatively high pitch, used a higher tambura volume and had a voice with better tonality compared to most CM artists (I don't think anyone would dispute this) --- she is revered even in the North. RK Srikantan Sir's tambura volume was higher, his kalapramanam more measured and he had a rich voice - no one will say he doesn't have shruti suddham! On the flipside, in fast passages I have heard HM performers slip on shruti too. People may not perceive it since their tonality is still excellent.

The other possibility (I'm more speculating here) is along the lines of what karthibala mentions - our gurus encourage anyone to take up CM and master it, inspired by the example of vidwans like Semmangudi who was a great of CM even though he had a not so great voice by a pure tonality standard. Similarly, Sanjay subramaniam in a podcast mentioned that he believes any voice can achieve good qualities with sufficient sAdhana. In contrast, I suspect HM gurus may be culling out students who don't have great voices/tone quite early in the teaching process. I could be wrong but it would interesting to hear from the perspective of someone who has learnt HM whether their gurus are more selective in taking on students or allowing them to perform. Similarly, I suspect HM performers also stop singing earlier than CM artists, who may be continuing to perform even past a certain age.

So maybe instead of asking about shruti suddham, we should be asking if something can be done to improve tonality in CM. I personally feel Palghat Mani Iyer's suggestion that vocalists sing at higher pitches and train there is a good idea to improve tonality. My guru doesn't agree with me so I might well be wrong!

[Rsachi]

ArvindT,
Thank you for many interesting points.
Having a higher tambura volume and singing at a higher pitch seem like good suggestions, However I think there is more wear and tear in a briga/speedy style of CM that takes a toll on the pitch level.

I have heard many HM musicians sing with indifferent Sruti and swara Suddham. Especially when they sing fast passages. Also some big HM names weren't the best at Sruti Suddham.

[vasanthakokilam]

That makes sense Arvind. Those are good points to add to the mix.

BTW, what is the working definition of 'tonality' in these contexts? Pleasant sounding, not harsh, no rough edges etc. ? Hope crooning is not equated with good tonality since that would not be considered good for expressing bhava in CM ( whereas that would definitely be considered desirable in cine music )

I think the the phenomenon that Karthik alludes to is predominantly in the AIR artists and especially a few who are featured in the afternoon slots ( to be sure, not all ), in my limited experience. But I will wait for all your opinions about MA level artists.

There is one other aspect that I wonder about. If we, ordinary rasikas, perceive the sruthi lapses, the professionals should perceive it too, that much more. Has anyone talked to a few of the professionals to get their ( non defensive ) assessment, even if it is private.

[arvindt]

vasanthakokilam,

Re: your question, I really don't know if I can define tonality objectively. It is pretty subjective. In the CM context it is what people call "shAreeram". Part of it can be a natural gift and part can be developed by sAdhana. It is definitely not crooning - more the opposite I'd say. I'd say it includes having a pleasant rich sounding voice (not too thin or too thick - this is sort of a natural gift), singing from the nAbhi (stomach), having sufficient voice range without losing volume when traversing registers, ensuring the voice shows sufficient strength on kaarvais even after singing a long phrase, varying modulation or volume correctly depending on the ragam/phrase, ensuring microtonal shruthi alignment when singing a gamakam, ensuring the "ends" of phrases in ragas align with shruti properly, etc... all of these together give a good effect on the rasika. Except the first all others can be cultivated and together I guess they improve the shAreeram.

Regarding RSachi's point

>> However I think there is more wear and tear in a briga/speedy style of CM that takes a toll on the pitch level.

True, but remember MSS could handle all the brigas, gamakas and more in her prime (just listen to her chatula nataNa in bhavayami gopalabalam and returning to perfect alignment on the next phrase will prove that). It proves it can be done and is in the realms of possible, at least by gifted artists, and artists who have done enough sAdhana. I myself find that repeatedly singing a varnam in gradually progressing higher and higher speeds has been useful for me to get better and I can measure my own improvement over the past 5-6 years; I am sure the truly dedicated artists (who do exist in CM) have done varnam and akara sadhakam thousands upon thousands (or more) of times to get to where they are now.

[Rsachi]

ArvindT,
Yes, that reminds me about how Madurai Mani Iyer answers in an AIR interview about training the voice. He refers to the time when as a teenager his voice broke and he could not sing well for some time. Then he practiced exercises by which he steadily went higher and held the note perfectly for the attempted duration. Then he would move up to the next swara.
I will try to locate that interview and share the sound file here.

[Rsachi]

VKM,
I have known singers and professionals to be "privately" pretty scathing in their comments of their peers for their Sruti lapses.

[cacm]

Yes, that reminds me about how Madurai Mani Iyer answers in an AIR interview about training the voice. He refers to the time when as a teenager his voice broke and he could not sing well for some time. Then he practiced exercises by which he steadily went higher and held the note perfectly for the attempted duration. Then he would move up to the next swara.
I will try to locate that interview and share the sound file here.

It is in the FIRST MMI CENTENARY DVD. VKV

[cmlover]

VKM,
I have known singers and professionals to be "privately" pretty scathing in their comments of their peers for their Sruti lapses.

Theree is lot of Jealousy in the CM world !

[Rsachi]

Thanks Sir, I will share that interview here.

[arvindt]

Rsachi, that would be nice. I have never heard an MMI interview!

[Rsachi]

ArvindT
I have ripped the audio from the two DVD set that includes the MMI interview. Please access it here:
http://bit.ly/MMIIntvw
as a bonus you have a fantastic Vatapi sung by MMI to the accompaniment of LGJ and PSP (listen to it on headphones or a good speaker system!)
Please note this is available as a result of a massive project executed by CACM and others. You can read all about it in the Madurai Mani Iyer Centenary thread in rasikas.org
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... =Centenary

[arvindt]

Rsachi, cacm (VKV) and others who have contributed to the MMI project: a big thanks! Downloading it now.

[vallknowme]

First of all, shurti as you people call it, physically is not definable. It is a relative measurement and very subjective. How can you measure shruti? It is not "pitch". There is no instrument in the world that can measure shruti. The only way you can measure shruti is by LISTENING. Only practitioners can understand this.

[VK RAMAN]

I have seen apps used in Iphones for sruti measurement and it is pretty accurate.

[vallknowme]

Sorry sir, I humbly disagree. Only human ears can measure Shruti. Instruments and apps cannot. Anyone who is experienced with sound analysis will know this. You may say each human ear is different - thats why Shruti is a subjective phenomenon.

[Nick H]

The apps that we see on phones, etc, and the dedicated meters used by musicians for tuning, measure pitch. The pitch that a person is singling, or playing, can be measured at any given moment. If it is a flat note, where is the difference between pitch and "shruti?" But if it is a note with gamaka ...well, of course it can still be measured, because it is a sound, but what might be in question is its assessment as being right or wrong against a fixed frequency.

Possibly this book applies?

In his bold and critical analysis, the author shows why the currently prevailing theories of 22 śruti-s are inapplicable to the system of rāga music. He explains why śruti is not quantifiable. The modern theories based on Western tuning concepts and mathematics, that place the 22 śruti-s among the various rāga-s, have been completely debunked.

[vallknowme]

Nick sir, you are pinning down this entire discussion to the crux - what is the difference between shruti and pitch? pitch is is for physicists. shruti is for music listeners. period. thanks

[vallknowme]

Excuse the bluntness of this analogy - a cow moos - whats the shruti? a crow caws - whats the shruti? a cat meows - whats the shruti? Kindly seperate quantification of sound and music appreciation. PLEASE